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[ERROR] No.19221369 [Reply] [Original]

Will the world be better if the smartest rule? Will society work better if we let scientists make the decisions? Nay, Heinlein claims, scientists are often some of the most selfish men, and the requirement for proper rule derives from social virtue, which in turn comes from the ability to place your body between home and the terrors of war. Self-sacrifice is not practiced by the scientists. Has not history shown that a warrior caste of equal citizens make for the most enduring civilizations?

>> No.19221401
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[ERROR]

>>19221369
>Has not history shown that a warrior caste of equal citizens make for the most enduring civilizations?
Indeed it has.

>> No.19221406

ITT bourgeois cope

>> No.19221434

>>19221406
>ITT trancom seethe
FTFY

>> No.19221459

>>19221434
But really, it’s a trash take with little thought behind it. The warrior caste exists for itself and follows idiot leaders who make the horrors of war. They don’t protect anyone, they terrorize everyone.
Leave this childish ideal behind and think for a change. Want a book to read?

>> No.19221466

>>19221459
war is the natural state of humanity cope seethe dialate etc.
oh and grab that rope over there by the way

>> No.19221487

>>19221369

Heinlein's greatest achievement was showing that any proposed political regime, if undertaken with enough vigor and to its logical limits, will sound like some form of dictatorship to plebs - and yes I am talking about people who read the book and come out of it thinking that society was somehow not liberal - not about the completely different plot from the movie.

>> No.19221497

>>19221466
No, it isn’t.

>> No.19221505

>>19221487
As we can all see by today’s world, liberalism is one step away from fascism

>> No.19221525

>>19221497
i can see it, you always keep it close
now it's time to put it to use

>> No.19221583

>>19221369
the smartest are the only people who can solve the midwit problem. and unfortunately for the world, they have all opted out

>> No.19221607

>>19221459
This is why women have never (and will never) run a productive society. They exist only for their own vanity, be it social or physical. They don't protect anyone, they coddle everyone.
Leave this faggoty ideal behind and get back in the kitchen. Want something to cook?

>> No.19221609

>>19221369
>Controversial
Wait really?

>> No.19221672

>>19221607
Because we’re natural and peaceable
>productive
Wait. HA! War it not productive, you sap.
>vanity
Life giving is vanity? Kys.
>they don’t protect anyone
Except the infantile would-be warlords. If women could see the future of their children by looking into their eyes, they’d probably kill the bad ones to save the rest of us.
>Want something to cook
Climb into the pot.

>> No.19221716

>>19221607
it's not a woman, it's a man
call it by it's proper name
>>19221672
dialate seethe cope and hang yourself

>> No.19221726

>>19221716
>It’s
>it’s
>it’s
>it’s
Try hard loser.
Ywnhs

>> No.19221800
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19221800

>>19221726
Fuck off fake butters.

>> No.19223512

i used to believe in technocracy, it just made sense, but holy shit as ive gotten older it becomes more apparent that that society revolving around materialist bugmen and their beliefs and faith is just a fucking awful idea, probably the worst imaginable, might as well just go full on communism at that point

>> No.19223519
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19223519

>>19221459
>>19221497
>>19221505
>>19221672
>>19221726
yet another epic tranny thread

while youre here why dont you explain to us why you are so pathetically desperate for recognition and attention on an anonymous image board

>> No.19223528

>>19221672
>War it not productive
is this a joke? war is the most productive force on this planet, almost everything the human race has ever produced stems directly from war or threat of war

>> No.19223576
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19223576

>>19223528

>> No.19223593

>>19223576
????

>> No.19223615
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19223615

>>19223593
that's butters way of telling you she is wrong but doesn't want to openly admit it

>> No.19223621

>>19223593
Sadism as the mother of invention is rotten and only brings the curses of Pandora’s box.

>>19223615
That is my way of calling one a degenerate weakling

>> No.19223650

>>19223621
wow you know thats a nice platitude and all but neccecity is the mother of invention and your platitude doesn't change that that virtually everything humanity has produced stems from our innate need to enforce our sovereignty and create order in a universe full of entropy

its kinda weird how you simultaneously seem to hate the way the world is so much, but at the same time you just invent these nice platitudes about how the world SHOULD be and cover up reality with them and pretend thats just how things are

>> No.19223665

>>19223576
>>19223576
>refuses to provide response

I expected better of you desu. Everything from the basics of the internet to nylon was invented and improved in the preparation of conflict. All of modern space travel is precipitated off of the cold war, advancement from bronze to iron was predominantly due to the ability to more easily produce weapons and most of our aerospace developments in regards to planes were built off the back of the gubbermint wanting to stay competitive with foreign powers.

Now there are of course exceptions, but to say that conflict is not one of the driving factors of human history is just naïve to me. Cultural advancements are one of the things that I find to fit the bill of not being due to conflict, as art, literature and religion tend to flourish best when people are less focused on murdering each other. When societies clash it forces them to adapt, those that fall behind are consumed and thrown to the wayside, its evolution.

>>19223621
What defines a degenerate? Why do you get to be the authority on the matter. My apologies if I seem overly sensitive to the matter but from my own personal experience I have grown wary of people who throw around such derisions.

>>19223512
I concur with you. I find the latent greed and sloth that lies at the core of most western societies to be undesirable in my own opinion, but I find the concept of socialist thought to be unappealing as I grow older. I find that most ideological positions seem to be lacking what will ensure that they don't eventually turn into a soulless monstrosity. Although I suppose its impossible to ever find a state of being that over the course of centuries remains pure and true to its original purpose.

>> No.19223672

>ORDER AGAINST ENTROPY!
It’s been a motive of greed all along. And when found in other fellow humans to not be as “innate” they were slaughtered or taken as slaves.
>you just invent
I know how it used to be and I think we ought to bring it back before we go extinct. Stop being such a stupid liberal, progressive, pragmatist, capitalist, futurist, fascist, imperialist, authoritarian bimbo.

>>19223665
Pretty sure calling you out as a degenerate weakling was my response.
>what defines a degenerate
See how bad you are? You’re a war lover.

>> No.19223676

>>19221369
That's why Hitler was good

>> No.19223688

>>19223672
>See how bad you are? You’re a war lover.
I think you missed the point of my post. I do not love war, I was merely making an observation that its one of the driving factors of human advancement.

Calling someone a degenerate is not a response to his arguments. Its a shallow attempt to discredit his position by smugly asserting that he's wrong just because of some perceived characteristic that you view on him. When trying to argue a point in a discourse with other people, its advisable to leave your prejudices at the door and not hate people for random assumptions. He never said that he loved war, he made a point that conflict was a driving factor in human advancement, nothing more.

>> No.19223689

>>19223665
I dont think i would even say I all together disagree with "socialist thought" on a more fundamental level, its just that communism and the militant atheism and materialism that is intricately woven into such movements are absolute dead ends, and not pleasant ones to live with, as far as Im concerned. I agree that nothing will ever be perfect though, and to me THAT is the best thing we can keep in mind. you can consider the basic motivations of socialist thought and then try and make do with what you have, try to make real changes here and now without chasing these grand anarchist/communist carrot on a sticks right off a cliff

anyway to expand on my comparison of technocracy and communism, I think a technocracy will fall into the same sterile militant materialist spiritually dead abyss and and all people will suffer for it

>> No.19223701

>>19223672
>I know how it used to be
no you dont. life consuming life is everything, its the nature of the existence of life, and the human race has never been a sweet hippie drum circle like you seem to be implying

you are completely disconnected from reality, my friend, you're inventing feel good fantasies to cope with your own nihilism

>> No.19223706

>>19223689
Would you mind elaborating anon? I don't disagree with you, far from it, but I would like to understand your own thought process behind your views.

>> No.19223713

>>19223672
>You’re a war lover.
this perfectly exposes the mentality i was talking about, you think acknowledging reality means you "love it the way things are" because you are cooking up a fantasy that you love and endorsing it as how things are, replacing reality with a fairy tale, you aren't in any way being objective, you are literally just projecting your cope onto the universe

>> No.19223765

>>19223688
>I think you missed the point of
Through all that smarm, I am less inclined to read.
>but to say that conflict is not one of the driving factors of
Which was never said. Again, We need to be weary of the gifts from Pandora’s Box, as they can turn out to be curses.
You sound like you’re making a case for the horrors, “but I’m not a war lover”. An apologist at least
> attempt to discredit his position
Ah, see? You were the same person till now. Watch for your self imposed handicap Anonymouses.
> its advisable to leave your prejudices at the door and not hate people for random assumptions.
Yes. Oh how I wish the children of this board ever did the same.
> e made a point that conflict was a driving factor in human advancement
And that IS why I call him a war lover. You love and honor it as a creator, horror and “advancements” alike. It’s foolishness.

>>19223701
YES I DO.
>Oh noes. Consuming of fish bad. Oh the horror
>Oh noes. Pooping in the forest bad. Such degeneracy.
Society is disconnecting you from reality. Authoritarianism bashes your ancestors over the head and raises their children to be slaves and their children’s children etc. are too stupid and sadly degenerated to know what is missing.

Unprovoked answer. We cannot go back to Zerzan’s or Ted’s ideal. But we will not survive this crashing monstrosity. A hybrid must be made. Pandora’s curses must be put up on a shelf

>> No.19223776

>>19223706
I believe it can be said that socialist thought stems from revolutionary nationalism, which could be summed up as the idea that the productive and administrative forces of a community should exist to the benefit and prosperity of the people of that community. I think socialism and communism take that idea and try to bring it to its most extreme logical conclusion encouraged by people like marx who proclaimed that it was all but a scientific fact that dialectics would lead society to this conclusion. i disagree with that assessment but thats a whole other conversation. anyway as far as im concerned, the productive and administrative forces of a community, or nation, should be used for the prosperity and personal growth of the people, and I simply think there are other more immediate ways to go about helping the masses to this aim that dont involve trying to brute force communism into reality, which as i said, i think is not something that will actually have the result people think it will have

as far as materialism and spirituality go, i think the death of spirituality fosters nihilism, and the effect of nihilism is a certain freedom from moral restraints where a persons decision making process is directly influenced by the lack of meaning and direction, and you know, when they debating committing to a given action, that nihilism will often effect which way the debate goes, and the result of this is often very poor self destructive but gratifying choices, or extremely cold or cruel but logical choices, which is what ultimately turned me off of technocracy, because i think a technocratic administrations decision making would be adversely effected by their nihilistic outlook and the result would be not so good for society

>> No.19223793

>>19223713
>acknowledging reality
I acknowledge the reality of a proliferation of inventions coming from war research and state maintenance. What isn’t reality is your bending over to excuse it. “It’s human nature” as if the inventions themselves don’t mold the mind and the mind mold the social norms any.

>> No.19223816

>>19223765
>Through all that smarm, I am less inclined to read.
If you refused to read the content of the post, why bother responding?
>Which was never said. Again, We need to be weary of the gifts from Pandora’s Box, as they can turn out to be curses.
You sound like you’re making a case for the horrors, “but I’m not a war lover”. An apologist at least
Then why are you even arguing with me? we both agree that war is fundamentally bad and should be avoided, All I was saying was that historically its been the primary force of progress. In the ideal world we would all be living peacefully.
>Ah, see? You were the same person till now. Watch for your self imposed handicap Anonymouses.
My apologies I don't understand this portion of your text, I am a separate anon from the one you were arguing with, my apologies if there was any misunderstanding.
>Yes. Oh how I wish the children of this board ever did the same.
Than why feed into it? Your just insulting him for voicing his opinion without providing any substance, if you want to voice your thoughts on why someone is wrong, then explain your position and have a discussion. The boards quality will continue to degrade if we feed into quips about how people who disagree with us are somehow stupider or hold a lower moral fiber than ourselves. Maintaining a respectful tone is important to getting across your ideas.
>And that IS why I call him a war lover. You love and honor it as a creator, horror and “advancements” alike. It’s foolishness.
Stating a fact is not "loving" or "honoring" something. It would be better if we threw off the shackles of conflict alongside any advancement it might have brought to live free of human inflicted suffering upon one another, but that doesn't change the fact that it has for better or worse lead to advancements, whether it be something as useful as the modern airplane or as cruel and vile as chemical weapons.

>>19223776
Thank you for responding anon.

>> No.19223818

>>19223765
>YES I DO.
no, you dont. humans have literally always been in conflict not just with nature but with each other, life has always been steeped in conflict. in order to survive it, a sharper stick, more robust organization, etc

>but we will not survive this crashing monstrosity. A hybrid must be made

you arent going to make fucking thing by politely asking 8 billion people to all collectively and voluntarily act and live a certain way permanently for the rest of human existence all completely by their own volition. the fact that you actually think this is an option shows how disconnected from reality you are. oh, but im sure, people will be BEGGING on their knees to submit voluntarily to your ideals exactly the way you want them to now, but it will be when their fate is already been sealed when the final authority of nature and the collapse takes place of the authority of man, and forces them to act

>> No.19223830

>>19221369

>Will the world be better if the smartest rule?

What use do the smartest people have for everyone else? Not much.

It's more likely they'll try to kill everyone else off...with endless war, regular market crashes, maybe a pandemic virus...

>> No.19223839
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19223839

op i'm pretty sure this book makes that argument but there's no audiobook version so i didn't read it

>> No.19223850

>>19223816
I came back to it.
People get uppity with me and want to start a fight.
This portion is explaining that anonymous all look same.
I argue in hopes someone will get it and think about the problem more critically. (I guess I’m also agitated at the moment. You make a good point)

>> No.19223860
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19223860

>>19223818
>lemme tell yu about humans

>> No.19223875

>>19223850
Its okay butterfly anon, we all get angry sometimes. I would like to apologize for how I conducted myself in earlier correspondence, I too was agitated and I did use language that was very much combative and not at all conducive to civilized discourse. I'm going to go to bed now, so I'll check back up on this thread in the morning to see if it ever gets back on track to the original purpose that OP had in mind lol.

>> No.19223894

>>19223875
thats a fake. why the fuck would i post in a heinlein thread

>> No.19223897
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19223897

>>19223875
Have a good sleep, friend.

>> No.19223903
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19223903

>>19223894
Okay, you can stop now.

>> No.19223907

>>19223897
>>19223894
I am deeply confused now. I'm new to this board, is there a meme of tripfags copying each other? I fucking despise this place. Was I talking with someone who was larping the entire time?

>> No.19223912

>>19223860
yes let me tell you about humans; they arent robots, you cant just politely ask 8 billion people to radically alter their lifestyles and give up virtually everything they have and expect all of them to just up and do exactly what you want for the rest of history, and everyone lives happily ever after, you fucking dunce. To quote the OP book, violence is the supreme authority from which all authority stems from, and either human authority will make people act, or the authority and violence will make them act (too late). its not a coincidence that the most materially effective environmentalist superpower on earth, the pioneers of animal rights and sustainable development, who all environmentalists owe a debt to, were an authoritarian regime

>> No.19223918

>>19223912
opps
>the authority and violence of nature will make them act (too late).

>> No.19223958
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19223958

>>19223903

>> No.19223980

Have we, as Rico's father so aptly put it, "outgrown wars?"

>> No.19223984

>>19223907
The imposter posted once ( >>19223894 ) I put the trip back on and I vouch for the rest being me.

>>19223912
>they arent robots,
I could tell you the same. You’re the one who believes they’re all following a single God-made program

>> No.19224024

>>19223984
no im not, are you fucking illiterate???? thats LITERALLY the opposite of what I just said, people are pulling in all directions with their own beliefs and passions and interests and traumas and life experiences, or lack there of such things, which is why you cant just go up to 8 billion of them and expect them to all act uniformly of their own volition the way you want them to. either human authority will push them to act, or the authority of nature, of consequences will force them to act, more likely than not too late and "The avalanche has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote"