/lit/ - Literature

>NO NO NO WHY DON'T THEY EXPLAIN HOW THE FAKE TECHNOLOGY THAT DOESN'T WORK WORKS

>>19209767
>noooo muh scifi book isn't an autistic hyperrealistic mechanical instruction guide
No. Instead it explores human nature and politics more. Its different than most cheesy Sci fi shit, that's why it's good

It was more fantasy-political in a sci fi setting. Cool world/universe-building though, which is all I cared about.

>>19209767
I don't think Sci-fi books need hyper detailed descriptions of tech, I find it more interesting when it's future tech that's unexplained.

>>19209767
>>19209778
>>19209814
>>19209830
>>19209935
Sci-fi and fantasy are SHIT genres. Read real literature

>>19209949
I don't stick to one genre I read everything, you can find interesting things in all genre's

>>19209949
>scifi can't be liter-

>>19209767
Hard sci-fi is the worst sci-fi and all of its fans are autists

>>19209814
this

>>19209767
Yeah OP, Star Trek and its immense technobabble that is there to sell its extremelly warped and biased political bias is surely the way to go... It's all fake nonsense written by people with a very, very thin grasp, at best, on actual science. Would you have preferred it if the Spice was
>NANOMACHINES, SON
or something? Everything has its place. I don't like actual magic in MGS, the same way I wouldn't want something like the Crysis suit in Dune. I find such complaints silly, same with
>NOOOOOOOO THE FORCE IS TOO MAGICAL FOR A SPACE SETTING NOOOO
What do you want? Trek has bullshit magic too, but just because everyone wears pajamas and they quote like redditors, people think it's "Hard Sci-Fi". Space Operas have their own unique style. It's not Hard Sci-Fi. Go read/watch Planetes or something for that. Dune's fairly grounded as far as SF goes and the merging of the supernatural, cosmic and technologic is the staple when you go big enough in scope.

>>19209949
your opinion is ignored

>>19210094
>Star Trek and its immense technobabble
Are you kidding me? Star Trek's technology is barely explained nat all

>>19210094
I'm writing a hard sci-fi and it is fucking terrible. It is so god damn boring. You start liking a plot and then I describe how bicycles will be constructed in the future for four pages.

>>19210136
that's different than the "techno-babble" this guy is referring to. most of that babble is explaining PHENOMENON, not explaining how a piece of tech works

read neuromamcer, snowcrash, old mans war, and the stars my destination

THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT GOOD

>>19209767
there is a lot of talk about genetic breeding you dingus, its just that they're not making armies of Paul/Feyd.
>>19210136
Well they'll throw in a math term here and there to make it feel like its grounded, but its all space magic at the end of the day.

real talk, Eva had the best technobabble, fucking launch sequences were TIGHT.

>>19209767

>"An Ixian machine? You defy the Jihad!"

>"There's a lesson in that, too. What do such machines really do? They increase the number of things we can do without thinking. Things we do without thinking — there's the real danger."

>-God Emperor of Dune

One of the overriding themes of the Dune novels is the relationship between humans and technology. To examine such a relationship, how the technology works is far less important than what people do with it. The technology in Dune is well defined for that purpose.

>>19210005
The cat nip must flow.

>>19209767
>This feel much more like a fantasy series than a science fictions series
All literature is fantasy
>>19209949
"real" literature is just pretentious fantasy

And hard SF is just fantasy for autists
in before >Why didn't the eagles just fly them there

>>19209767
Knife fights are way cooler than gun fights.

>>19209814
this

>>19210308
What about shouty fights?

Presently, Paul swallowed in a dry throat. He felt the terrible purpose of his race consciousness jihad.

>>19209767
>>barely any technology is actually explored in any detail besides the stillsuits or shields, the latter of which ends up being an excuse to have as little sci-fi tech at all
yeah that helps it
"that" kind of scifi where its basically just a vessel for someone to ship their cringy worldbuilding in autistic detail is almost universally bad

>>19210300
>Why didn't the eagles just fly them there
heh, good question tho

>>19209949
Its all equally pretend anon. Your desire to feel superior to others is funny, however.

I just finished Dune, so...the main theme is how humanity's collective consciousness brings war as a means to refine the gene pool and evolve as a species, right? And in the end Paul accepts that and just gives up on trying to stop the jihad? That's kinda fucked up.

>>19209949
>real literature

>>19211092
to me, the main theme is that no matter how good a charismatic leader is, either he will eventually go foul or people will do great evils in his name. Basically "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." It's a warning sign about universally loved politicians like JFK. When Paul accepts the jihad, it means that he values his own life over billions, because he does not want to commit suicide in the desert before he reaches the sietch with his mother in spite of knowing the consequences of their survival.

>>19211092
nah the main themes are about leadership. the human biological evolution stuff is just a plot device, unless you can make a good case for it being a main theme somehow
>>19211302
the quote from chapterhouse
>It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible
would disagree with you, though i believe its given in character so i suppose the character could be wrong. Leto II was incorruptible though not really human, Paul wasn't really corruptible either. Dangerous charismatic leaders are definitely a theme though, just not really sold on the main point being all leaders are or will turn bad

>>19211092
Paul didn't fully understand his visions at that time, at the very least he thought there was a way to stop the jihad somehow, but I agree with you. There is that epigraph about great leaders being some sort of collective delusion and that chapter in which Leto basically admits to his son that he's a fraud as a leader, despite being considerably admired and loved by his people.

>>19211365
>nah the main themes are about leadership. the human biological evolution stuff is just a plot device, unless you can make a good case for it being a main theme somehow

Fair enough.

>>19211302
Paul didn't fully understand his visions at that time, at the very least he thought there was a way to stop the jihad somehow, but I agree with you. There is that epigraph about great leaders being some sort of collective delusion and that chapter in which Leto basically admits to his son that he's a fraud as a leader, despite being considerably admired and loved by his people.

>>19211365
>nah the main themes are about leadership. the human biological evolution stuff is just a plot device, unless you can make a good case for it being a main theme somehow

Fair enough.

>>19209949
>muh reel lichruchure

>>19209767
you're looking for brandon sanderson if you want someone to write a strategy guide level explanation of how all the technology and magic works

>>19209767
>barely any technology is actually explored in any detail besides the stillsuits or shields
No one cares about made up technology you autistic weirdo. Good sci fi, like any good novel, is about people.

>>19211365
>Dangerous charismatic leaders are definitely a theme though
its a dumb one, their is a reason why it was only popular post-ww2

>>19209767
there's real literature. then there's genre fiction. then there's sci-fi.

>>19209767
Dune is garbage. Utter garbage literature. I have genuine trouble believing an anon that enjoys reading this pile of children shit picks up too the works of Tolstoy, Steinbeck or Garcia Marquez.

>>19212063
>steinbeck

>>19212085
Did I press your commie button?

>>19212090
no? he just sucks

>>19209814
SciFi explores impacts of new tech or science. fantasy focuses on humanity and politics. dune is just a fantasy novel with a coat of SciFi paint.

>>19212145
>dune is just a fantasy novel with a coat of SciFi paint.
this could be said of half of sci-fi

Has anyone read Chapterhouse? I have a pet theory that Herbert added Scytale and changed the ending as digs toward Brian. Brian was hanging out with his dad a lot during that period and I think he pitched a lot of his expanded universe shut at his dad, leading Frank to make a superfluous callback character obsessed with resurrecting every character from the previous books and changed the ending in a way that says "fuck this universe, hope you like gholas." Can anyone else give feedback? I mean Scytale was completely pointless to bring back, he could have used a ghola of Waff for all he brought.

>>19210300
>"real" literature is just pretentious fantasy
Its not, you are just coping because you have shit tastes.

>>19209767
I thought the consensus among Dune fans was that GEOF was the best Frank wrote.

What should I expect from the sequels of Dune? Less environmentalism and Fremen culture and more politics from the unexplored houses of the Landsraad?

First two books in the Herbert series are good. Third becomes endless babbling, which the fourth fails to amend. I won't even finish the series. Herbert's prose becomes stale and like I'm trudging through airheadeds who've lost the ability to speak without meaning and go into long paradoxical speeches that lead to boring one worded replies.
He also dropped the ball big time on Emperor of Dune.

>>19212715
less adventure and more intrigue and a lot of political, ethical, and philosophical musings

>>19209767

The fantastic qualities of Science-fiction AND fantasy are at their best when used as vehicles to examine the actual human condition. You put a human consciousness in these incredible situations and try to examine the outcomes using those elements.

Dune does this very well I'd say, examining identity, current political systems, consequences of dependence on technology. So much. Sorry you don't like it anon.

>>19212757
Good. Those were the aspects I enjoyed more in the first book. The psychedelic, spiritual mumble jumble got a bit tiring at times.

>>19209949
I exclusively read PKD and Lem

>>19212033
Anon.. it was written post ww2

>>19212784
>Dune does this very well I'd say, examining identity, current political systems, consequences of dependence on technology.
I agree with the identity thing but from what I've read so far (first 2 books) the political system of dune is incredibly simplistic, basically just medieval era monarchy but with planets instead of land. The bene gessirit and space guild get dealt with so easily by Paul that it's hard to take them as any serious threat. The dependence of technology isn't explored much at all either, and that's why I seriously question if I can call it sci-fi, the closest it approaches is the Butlerian Jihad but that's just background lore for the mostpart and the Spice isn't technology, it's just magic.

>>19209767
This is why fantasy ages better than SciFi. SciFi will always we told through perspective of the time. Technology needs to be described in extremely vague ways or else you will have VCR players in the year 3000.

Why would any Duke, lord or emperor want to associate with a Bene Gesserit witch when it's pretty obvious they have their own secret agenda and are shady as fuck? And how exactly does the Missionaria Protectiva worked? They just went from planet to planet spreading myths and legends that someday, MAYBE would help their incredibly vague goals?

>>19209767

>>19209767
What surprised me was how utterly badly the book was written. It is almost unreadable for a person who mostly reads classic fiction

>>19213342
>Why would any Duke, lord or emperor want to associate with a Bene Gesserit witch when it's pretty obvious they have their own secret agenda and are shady as fuck?
I assume that they do it because having someone around that can essentially read minds is really useful
>And how exactly does the Missionaria Protectiva worked? They just went from planet to planet spreading myths and legends that someday, MAYBE would help their incredibly vague goals?
It makes the people more easy to manipulate for their vague goals, without it they'd probably get a reaction similar to the witch burnings in real life when they displayed their powers.

>>19212216
forever war is actually good sci fi that explores theoretical physics applied to real life scenarios in a high tech environment though

>>19213342
>Why would any Duke, lord or emperor want to associate with a Bene Gesserit witch
It's heavily implied in the books that the Bene Gesserit, besides being hot as fuck, are trained to suck the paint off a door handle.

>>19213386
Seems like a tempting but risky deal. To be fair, if the Bene Gesserit wants to associate with you, it's likely they are looking to preserve your bloodline and genes, so your goals might intersect, but you can never know for sure.

>>19213414
You can't just suck your way into high nobility, come on...

>>19213426
You seem to harbor the delusion that nobles are less retarded and less instinct-driven than the average rabble.

>>19213418
That and I think it's a status thing, if you're a leader of House I think it's expected that you have a Bene Gesserit lady. Even the Baron at least fucked a Bene Gesserit at one point even though he's big fat gay pedo.

>>19209814
Reddit moment

The bene gesserit await a messiah to make them rule the world, and associate themselves with dukes and princes in order to spread their control on the empire... sounds a little familiar

>>19209767
Also is it weird that I found myself more interested by the villains of the books than Paul's family/friends? Fremen life is just uninteresting to me, it's all so primitive and simple and I feel like Paul's family were just way too capable for there to ever be much suspense about what would happen. At least the Harkonnens and later the conspiracy have goals and plans they have to work towards rather than just use prescience to know exactly what to do.

>>19214837
i felt the same reading feyd rautha, scytale, irulan, farad'n etc

>>19213439
I mean it's not realistic that they do that consistently, as their main MO to reach positions of power. One or two weak minded simp nobles? Sure. But almost every major house? Impossible.

>>19213440
I see. Kinda like the maisters from ASOIAF, but those are nowhere near as shady and suspicious as the Bene Gesserit.

>>19214837
Yeah, but the Harkonnens are comically evil, the emperor isn't that much better either. The most interesting conflict to me was from side characters like Gurney and Hawat, since they were crazy wildcards that might do anything...and then they don't do much at all.

>>19209949
This

>>19215248
alright fags I'm reading the first volume where Paul and Jessica are crossing the desert, right before they are found by the Fremen. They use the Fremen's walk to cross it, AND Paul uses a thumper because... ???????
And of course the worm goes after them! What is the meaning of this? I don't fucking get it.

>>19215248
>>19215314
Didn't mean to quote, I simply went for the QR.

>>19215139
Bene Gesserit trained women can be very valuable allies. Noblemen are generally pretty arrogant and can be easily convinced that the benefits outweigh the risks. Plus at least some noblewomen receive Bene Gesserit training, like Irulan.

I'd really want to know more about the Bene Gesserit and Honored Matres desu

>>19209767
its not a sci fi book
its a masonic blueprint based loosely on chechens.
bene geserrit bloodlines hit too many bells for it to be a simple invention
and why yes, Frank herbert was a freemason bastard

>>19213426
History disagrees.

>>19215758
The last book, Chapterhouse, is set inside a bene gesserit training school, but you'd be shocked how little new stuff you learn.

Each Dune novel is weaker than the last. He blew his wad on the first book and after that he was just trying to jerk out one more.

>>19216649
I don't know, sandworm is the most interesting character in dune universe to me, so God Emperor book is the coolest to me

>>19214118
>Harkonnens are blonde Aryans
>Atreides are swarthy Semites, with an Aryan trophy wife

>>19217768
And yet the Fremen people can't do shit on their own, they need a white man to come and lead them. First it was Kynes, then Paul. It's the white man's burden.

>>19213342
>Why would any Duke, lord or emperor want to associate with a Bene Gesserit witch when it's pretty obvious they have their own secret agenda and are shady as fuck?
Two reasons. The first is that you really don't have a choice if they want your genes (I mean fucking hell, they even managed to seduce the Baron) and the second is that the ones the get married off are basically hand-reared since childhood to be perfect wives for nobility.

>And how exactly does the Missionaria Protectiva worked? They just went from planet to planet spreading myths and legends that someday, MAYBE would help their incredibly vague goals?
Basically, yeah. They show up, use their chicanery and training to implant very specific and self-sustaining mythic forms into the mythologies of the local cultures and then if another sister ever needs to go to ground in that culture then they know how to play the collective psyche of their protectors like a fiddle. The Bene Gesserit plan and operate their schemes over centuries and millennia; when your ambitions can be set back centuries by an inconvenient death, going to the effort to provide those bolt-holes makes much more sense.

>>19213414
>implied
It's explicitly stated and is one of the axes of their influence - no matter how times may change, men still have trouble quitting good pussy even if it gets them into trouble.

>>19218507
I despise those arrogant, presumptuous organizations that manipulate, either openly or from the shadows, to force their own vision on others. That's why it was incredibly satisfying to read how Paul humiliated the reverend mother Gaius Helen at the end. Well, you wanted your super special prophet? here he is, you pretentious old cunt.

>>19218606
And the loli abomination was almost as good too!

>>19209949
Based and redpilled

>>19209767
>not knowing what soft science fiction is.
You are either baiting or a retard.

>>19219105
What's the difference between "soft" science fiction and science fantasy?

>>19215314
brainlet, first it fucked up the thumper then went after them

>>19210010
>silverberg
No thanks.

>>19218052
Paul isn't white, he's Semitic. He's the Messiah figure.

>>19209767
>supposedly one of the best science fiction books of all time
It's a space opera you dingus.

>>19219123
Science fiction is about concepts. it uses plots and characters to study technology, society and their development (in an entertaining way).

Fantasy is about characters and their lives. It uses plots and characters to study characters themselves (in an entertaining way).

>>19209949
What is your opinion on Two Years Before The Mast?

>>19209767

>not understanding the Butlerian Revolt

Come on man

>>19219919
seriously lacking lasers

imho the bene gesserit is the best way to depict females ever

Dude, DUNC is ancient. It was written in 1965, before Star Trek and Star Wars.

At the time when it was was written, science fiction was relegated to comic books and films- mostly lower budget black and white horror movies set in space with cheesy monsters. The concept of a human culture that acted alien to the generic American/Western culture was, at the time, incredibly unique and novel.

Why do you think the book goes into so much detail about the Fremen, their stillsuits, the water culture? Because that's the sci-fi part. Nowadays the concept of humans living on alien planets and adapting tot hem is second nature to science fiction, but in the past, that was not at all the case. It is a relic of its time, and is pure retrofuturism.

>>19213348
>*blue teeth to make it look less like an anus
Actually kek'd.

>>19219952
>At the time when it was was written, science fiction was relegated to comic books and films- mostly lower budget black and white horror movies set in space with cheesy monsters.
Anon, why do you talk shit about shit you know nothing about?

>>19219934
t. didnt read past the second chapter

bump

>>19209949
Fantasy is the only socio-relevant genre of fiction and everything else is utter garbage for children.

>>19217768
>VGH MY PVRE NORDIC ARYAN VBERMENSCH
>VNLIKE THOSE FILTHY MEDS VGH
Goddammit, what is the problem with you people?

>>19209949
based.
I only read Wikipedia articles and 19th century philosophy books

>>19209767
this reminds me of Asimov's critique of 1984
>what's with all the politics shit
>where are the robots
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed
>I hate this

>>19210308
why do the movie adaptations refuse to show a shirtless knife fight?

>>19213342

A Bene Gesserit wife or concubine is a spymaster, lie detector, bodyguard, and advisor all in one. And all you need to do is take her suggestions on who you marry your kids to, and not pry to hard into why she seems dead set on your impregnating a particular person.

It's also worth remembering that these bitches don't give much of a fuck about day to day politics. They care about their own survival and the continuity of their breeding program above all else. So apart from maybe a certain ironic tone when she gives you advice, your Bene Gesserit concubine/wife is almost never going to be working against you, because the day to day shit that you care about isn't on the Sisterhood's radar except perhaps as intel on trends that might impact long term plans.

>>19218606

You probably enjoyed or will enjoy God Emperor, where the Bene Gesserit mission has become "Figure out what Leto wants, and give it to him as fast as we can".

>>19209767
Drug use to see the future is a very common sci fi trope, most sci fi authors at least the good ones were major druggies, the early sci-fi conventions were more or less just drug-cons

>>19223091
When you put it like that, it does seem like a sweet deal to have a Bene Gesserit at your side. The question then is why are they so dead set into this idea of eugenics and a chosen one at the end of it all, but when you put spice on the mix, it's easy to imagine it all begun with the original reverend mother having a prophetic vision and starting a cult around it (maybe the sequels reveals some of it).

>You probably enjoyed or will enjoy God Emperor, where the Bene Gesserit mission has become "Figure out what Leto wants, and give it to him as fast as we can".

kek. Fuck those witches. I'm curious to see how the Bene Gesserit reacts to Paul in Dune Messiah. I should be able to start reading soon.

>>19209767
>MUH COOL SCI-FI TEK
It's called science fiction not engineering fiction, fuck off.

>>19216649
I didnt care much about Dune Messiah but I am currently on Children of Dune which i already like more than Messiah

>>19214118
The Jews are still alive and unchanged in Dune universe, they appear in Heretics

>>19215758
Me too. I need a fanfic or an extended novel to explore how the planets changed under HM rule. Too bad Brian keeps milking the prequel.

>>19219123
soft sci fi is about soft science (sociology, anthropology, linguistics)
sci fantasy is about fantastic science

>>19224218
>soft sci fi is about soft science (sociology, anthropology, linguistics)
There is nothing scientific about any of those "soft" sciences. May as well be reading fantasy.

>>19222507
>Throws a tantrum
>Goddammit, what is the problem with you people?
It's obvious the author felt some form of ressentiment. All the baddies were blonde and fair, all the goodies were swarthy. Why?