/lit/ - Literature

>>19149177
(((ron rosenbaum)))

>>19149181
As I said: not perfect.

>>19149177
I'm about 800 pages into it. It's such a well-written and engaging book.

>>19149177
honestly, the historical rise of nazism cannot be properly understood without a solid grasp on fascist though and origins.

Its like trying to understand the founding of america without any background in enlightenment thought or humanism.

mods of course ban any discussion of this though.

You can't really talk about the Nazis accurately without discussing their anti semitism and genocide. You would figure anti semites would actually be proud of Hitler trying to exterminate the Jews instead of doing this half assed "he didnt really try to kill them, they just got typhus in the camps" denial to make him look better to "normies" who will never listen to them anyway

>>19149266
the holocaust isn't even the most interesting thing about the nazis desu. the ideology itself and hitler's rise to power are more interesting to read about

>>19149177
This book is outdated and has a lot of historiographical flaws. I’m surprised you defend it from the perspective of it being less “Judaized” or whatever since its sensationalism and simplification of Nazism is a lot less “sympathetic” than the nuance present in serious academic writing about the topic

>>19149273
Maybe so, but you can't ignore the Holocaust when writing a historical summary of Nazism. It's like ignoring the Great Leap Forward when writing about Mao

>>19149266
holocaust denialists know the holocaust happened, its just like you said disingenuous tactics to sanitize hitler in the public eye

>>19149302
They're not the only ones who try to whitewash and handwave the atrocities committed by their heroes. Far from it.

wow im sure an anti-semite is not arguing in bad faith when it comes to nazi germany

>>19149308
it's odd with the nazis though because they're so blatant about their hatred and desire to eliminate other racial groups, then they will try to do a 180 and say "hitler didnt actually hate the jews, he just hated commies" or some horseshit like that which might work on confederate flag waving trailer park rubes who never read a book in their lives

I like Mussolini more than Hitler.

>>19149266
>>19149302
absolutely retarded, you don't understand the arguments of holocaust deniers. There is no evidence of gas chambers. There is no evidence of a plan for extermination. There is no documentation for any work orders to kill jews, there are no bodies to be found. Your only evidence is jewish eyewitness testimony and confessions made under duress at the nuremburg trials. The lack of evidence for the holocaust is severe and made very apparent if you perform even the most basic research into the denialist argumentation.

>>19149327
complete jewish strawman, that's not what nazis say and not the states aim of any national socialist or white nationalist organization. embarrassing.

>>19149644
They strawman like that because it works on Reddit tier midwits who only read pop fiction and think they are knowledgable.

>>19149675
I can't help but use the word 'embarrassing again', imagine talking so sweepingly and confidently about a subject you've done exactly zero actual reading on. There's such an irritating hubris to the midwit.

>>19149694
One, my post was thatsthejoke.png. Second, I consider myself rarely knowledgeable about fascist origins.

You should start with some of the beginner stuff on pic related and get back to me.

>>19149708
I was agreeing with you

>>19149619
laughing at this nazi retard

>>19149716
Oh, anyway fascism is kind of a brainlet doctrine these days. I mean it’s more sound than lefty communism/ syndicalism etc. but still pretty shallow for modern issues.

Anyway, this thread seems more /his/ than lot unless we discuss more literature and philosophy which I am trying to do.

>>19149734
There's plenty of great denialist literature available, Dalton's Debating the Holocaust is an excellent introduction. All of you goobers shitposting about it ITT should read it.

>>19149750
I’m actually reading Evolas notes on the third reich right now and find it poignant.

Key points so far

-early national socialist doctrine differs greatly from wartime contingencies and necessities, much like civil war America is not representative of all American republicanism

-cult of personality corrupted early ideals

-early ideals came from the purity of strife and national preservation.

>>19149769
I think it's pretty natural for an ideology to morph over time and place and suit itself to address the issues and constraints of the people attempting to practice it. Purity spiraling is dangerous. Without a cult of personality, could it have ever been put into practice at all?

>>19149769
Nobody ever takes into account that the Nazis had to fight the entire Anglo-Jew world and its Bolshevik lapdog at the same time. They were basically authoritarian welfare states aimed at regenerating national culture and spiritual health before they had to fight the ultimate shabbos zerg rush.

>>19149619
Yeah, maybe all those historians should do some basic research on the topic like you have to debunk it. Can't believe they didn't think of that before.

>>19149799
IDK, Nationalism doesnt seem like it requires a cult of personality as much other broad ideals. Just look at most of the USA's history. There are a lot of literal who presidents but the ideal is maintained. A cult of personality is a linchpin in a lot of unstable revolutionary polities, think Napoleon, Bolivar, Kim, etc.

>>19149811
Actually they have and they've written books about it.

>>19149799
You have to understand we are talking about Evola here...

>>19149821
>the ideal is maintained
That's because of a massive decentralized propaganda network that constantly assaults the eyes and ears of millions of people. I'd say all great movements need great leaders to follow them. Isn't instability the desired outcome of a revolution? At least for a time.

>>19149811
>>19149822
Im not a da joos, and Not usually into fascist stuff, but I always found it odd how voraciously anti-holocaust deniers are, how extreme they want to stamp it out. I thought if it was such a cut and dry issue they wouldn't be so antithetical to it, and just take its existence as a matter of course like any other historical fact. I try to avoid consiracy theories, but that always struck me kind of odd how it wasn't treated like other widely accepted historical events. Like this kneejerk reaction. Idk I fell the praxis only makes holocaust denial more of a thing that it needed to be.

>>19149862
Sorry anon, your strawman still is not working. Try again.

>>19149861
I dont disagree, but how do you perpetuate the developments gained through a revolution? Napoleon did this pretty well with his propaganda and the napoleonic code and the spreading of national identity and all.

And despite all of the shit about the US, its a pretty damn stable continuation and successful continuation of the initial revolutionary creation (of course then by the nature of stability, it stagnates, but the at doesn't take away from the fact that "Americanism" became highly influential due to the stability of the state and its propaganda aperatus)

As a eample of a literal who, the diggers in the english civil war kinda became a sidenot in history, not because their communal ideas were not revolutionary, but they didnt have the staying power for a development on to continue.

>>19149619
>There is no evidence of gas chambers. There is no evidence of a plan for extermination. There is no documentation for any work orders to kill jews, there are no bodies to be found. Your only evidence is jewish eyewitness testimony and confessions made under duress at the nuremburg trials.
There is extensive evidence for all of these

>>19149862
the holocaust is the real conspiracy theory. The first thing people don't get is that the onus is on them to prove their claims, they're the ones saying 6 millions jews were killed in a planned extermination attempt. Those are huge claims, but they don't actually have evidence for that, and then they claim that lack of evidence is because the nazis were 'covering it up'. You have to understand that this isn't just some internet thing, many historians have challenged this narrative, especially in Europe. That's why they changed the law, decades after the end of the war, to outlaw denying the holocaust.

>>19149862
>denies the most well-documented systematic genocide in human history
>gets called retarded
>"hmmm curious how they're trying to crush dissent like this"

>>19149866
Im not the other anon. I was just describing the air about it. Are you saying the general atmosphere about it when talking in an academic sphere is similar to that of American cattle slavery or something? IDK. I am more referring to how it is talked about rather than its existence or nonexistence.

This is just my take as far as history as a whole. If you create a narritive as a direct counteraction to another, rather than having a wholistic stance, it makes it feel like a polemic rather than a introspective examination of history.

>>19149862
I think it's a result of holocaust questioning/denialism never being done in good faith. It's one thing for a historian who has actually studied the topic in depth to go against an overwhelming consensus among his peers, but usually it's a 16 year old skinny neonazi showing up going
>ALL THE HISTORIANS ARE WRONG I HAVE FIGURED IT OUT BY MYSELF IT'S CLEAR IF YOU JUST LOOK AT THE FACTS (WHICH NONE OF THE HISTORIANS DID)
And then pretending that they're doing this just out of legitimate historical accuracy concerns, when in fact they just want to complain about jews.
Not necessarily saying it's a good thing that the reaction to holocaust denial is so vitriolic, but I think it's understandable why.

>>19149885
Well you can't treat ideology as being in a vacuum, it can't be separated from realpolitik on the ground. By this I mean that, the first order of business for a revolution is forcibly seizing control of the government and doing away with uncooperative opposition and immediately gaining as much legitimacy as possible. The second order of business is preparing for and dealing with the foreign threats that will be aiming to eliminate the threat to the wider order. This second order of business dooms some revolutions because of geography and diplomacy. You're right, the accomplishments of america are great but point is that france and germany are in a rough neighborhood to be having revolutions in.

How do Holocaust deniers deal with the evidence contained in this book? Testimonies from long after the war

>>19149918
Bringing up the holocaust in academics is more taboo in the west than looking at the science of race of genetics. That is saying something.

>>19149919
strawman again, nice try anon.

>>19149862
I am a National Socialist and I both think the holocaust happened and don't think it was "good." I have a functionalist interpretation (as opposed to intentionalist, the usual way of dividing the two schools of thought on it) of it as arising from the same ambivalent forces of nationalism and tribalism the NSDAP movement tried to tap and harness to save Germany. These naturally intensified as the state became more and more of an embattled and embittered emergency state due to war. They didn't call it Fortress Europa for nothing. The Germans knew the Brits and their allies wanted nothing less than the total dissolution of the German soul, which was the protector of the whole European way of life.

There is plenty of good evidence that if Germany had stayed at peace, they would have just kept encouraging Jews to leave, maybe escalating to pogroms but that's it. I doubt many high-ranking National Socialists were vicious sociopaths who wanted to see Jews tortured and executed in the streets. Many of them supported the creation of a Jewish state somewhere, Palestine being just one of the proposals in the early 20th century.

The Nazis narrowed their scope and vision as a result of circumstances, but also as a result of weaknesses and narrownesses (cult of personality as already mentioned above) that already existed. It's not surprising that amoral monsters like Himmler had plenty of room to do what they did.

Whether or not Hitler knew about it explicitly is another question. But he too is an ambivalent enough character that it's not inconceivable. The greatness of National Socialism doesn't rest on Hitler's reputation. He was a man, probably one of the "greatest" men that ever lived in the amoral sense in which Hegel also described Napoleon, but that doesn't mean he was one of the best, or even a good man.

>>19149934
Another interesting book is Soldaten.

>>19149914
>>denies the most well-documented systematic genocide in human history
>>gets called retarded
thats not my problem, if that was the extent, I would agree.
I am referring to the discourse rather than the conclusion. As it is often taken as a rebuttal to the deniers rather than simply a statement of fact with some minor outlier dispute. I have a problem with it insofar as it seems to perpetuate and legitimize deniers.

>>19149934
>Testimonies from long after the war
so some stories about war crimes?
For one thing, testimonies from long after the war are by the far worst kind of source. Secondly, some stories about war atrocities doesn't prove the ACTUAL THESIS, that there was an extermination program that killed 6 million jews. That's the claim being made. Im sure the nazis executed plenty of partisans. That's not the discussion.

>>19149951
more strawmen anon. Ouch. Unless you honestly were talking about rwanda.

>>19149956
>war crimes
It wasn’t “war crimes” committed by rowdy and undisciplined soldiers, it was police battalions receiving orders from the government to round up and execute Jewish civilians — which they carried out at first with extreme discomfort and unwillingness. None of the witnesses dispute this.

>>19149965
or maybe sudan. Every NGO in the world was circling like vultures there for a while.

>>19149919
I can see that. Thanks for taking my post seriously. I Really have not read any substantial denial paper and am not one. but from someone in classes and such where denial is brought up pretty often, it feels like it creates this polemic atmosphere in itself before any actual discussion into it proper which I could then immagine just making more holocaust deniers in the first place.
>>19149939
Thats not a productive comment.

>>19149941
Please stop posting this trash and read some decent denialist literature. There was no extermination attempt, these were mere concentration camps just like America had for the Japanese that suffered typhus breakouts which the Germans attempted to treat with zyklon B. these accusations are nonsense.

>>19149973
>Thats not a productive comment.
Then maybe stop making worthless, fallacious 'arguments'

>>19149969
While that's an unfortunate story told many decades after the fact with question veracity, it still has nothing to do with whether or not the holocaust happened.

>>19149973
> it feels like it creates this polemic atmosphere
that's because the topic so politically and emotionally fraught and the pushback is so intense. If I could just a civil conversation about the holocaust I would but people get very emotional about it.

>>19149939
Who are you talking to retard? I'm >>19149811

>>19149979
Who are you even responding to? you called people strawmans who were both critical and supporting holocaust denial. And what arguement? My statement was about how how the topic is talked about creates a polemic atmosphere.

>>19149956
>testimonies from long after the war are by the far worst kind of source.
Can you prove that the testimonies from the 101st Reserve Police Batallion are unreliable? They were there in Poland carrying out the Final Solution. They were responsible for the deportation of Jews from the Lublin, Izbica and Piaski ghettos to Bełżec.
>some stories about war atrocities doesn't prove the ACTUAL THESIS
The actions of the 101st was apart of the overall Holocaust in Poland, not some isolated incident.
>that there was an extermination program that killed 6 million jews
Yes this is easily seen at the Wannsee Conference and Operation Reinhard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference
>Im sure the nazis executed plenty of partisans.
Not every Jew was a partisan.

>>19149980
What about the Wannsee conference? What about Goebbels diaries? What about Höss’ autobiography? What about Eichmann’s testimony? Why has no high ranking Nazi ever denied the Holocaust, only their degree of participation in it?

>>19149177
At least he uses homosexuality as a smear throughout.

>>19149992
You comment comes off as
>no historians have questioned the holocaust and its always some skinnyfat 16 year old 'nazi'

I saw that as a strawman. Also
>never been done in good faith
people have posted books already showing it has been done in good faith. So again, strawman.

You are creating a misrepresentation as a fact.

>>19150001
Yes, that proves jews were sent to various concentration camps, from which they'd be deported after the war. There is no evidence that there was a plan for extermination contained in your material. There is no material evidence of an extermination campaign at the sites.
>The actions of the 101st was apart of the overall Holocaust in Poland, not some isolated incident.
Ahh the ever-shifting narrative. Yes anti-partisan activity and deportations are also a part of the holocaust now because so much ground has been lost elsewhere. It wasn't just concentration camps, sometimes they just killed them, but sometimes they deported them to be killed later. Yet still it all definitely adds up to 6 million somehow.
>Not every Jew was a partisan.
That would explain why most of them survived the war and moved to America and Israel.

>>19149708
This reading list will turn one into an anarchist.

>>19150003
>What about the Wannsee conference
Plans for deportations to camps?
>goebbels
I've fucking read Goebbels' Diaries, i own them, and there's no evidence for the holocaust in them, in fact he says they should be sent to Madagascar several times, not exterminated.
>What about Höss’ autobiography? What about Eichmann’s testimony? Why has no high ranking Nazi ever denied the Holocaust, only their degree of participation in it?
Because they are being held in a state of duress and in the case of the nuremburg trials, being tortured. What do you think the purpose of the eichmann trial was in the first place? It's was a show trial conducted to set the narrative. That's the whole point.

>Be me
>International Relations Class
>Prof is Israeli Jew
>Sends me an email
>Read my essay and wanted to talk about it
>Class has like 1000 people
>Go to her office
>Says she liked my essay (Just War Theory) and wants to discuss it
>I'm nervous but we do
>She brings up Nuremberg
>"Nuremberg was a witch hunt"
>Stands up
>Refuses to give me the book she was going to gift me
>Kicks me out of her office
The funny thing is...I meant that guilt, being focused the way it was, was illusory. It was symbolic and we haven't figured out a way to combat the type of ideology that leads to totalitarian impulses and the potential for mass atrocity. Whatever though...I still got an A--just couldn't use her as a reference for grad school (switch to STEM anyway).

>>19150051
>being tortured.
Source?

>>19149990
I think that makes sense and is an obvious part of it. though personally i always felt a good conversation usually has a good amount of flow and dynamism to a topic, which, again, is harder when tempers run hot (though in those tempers there is often an important point to be made)

>>19150058
see @ this book >>19149822
read mottogno

/lit/ is the only place I have been where non nazis are actually knowledgeable about and can discuss fascism, and still the shills are high.

>>19150040
>Yes, that proves jews were sent to various concentration camps, from which they'd be deported after the war.
Deported to where anon? Millions of Jews were "evacuated to the east" between 1941-1945 and most never returned. If you are referring to the German 1940 Madagascar plan, it was abandoned after the allies invaded Madagascar and the Germans began the Final Solution.
>There is no evidence that there was a plan for extermination contained in your material.
Did you ignore the part about Operation Reinhard? Bełżec was one of the several camps that comprised it. Gassing operations were conducted there.
>There is no material evidence of an extermination campaign at the sites.
The Gerstein Report provides testimony of the gassing operations that went on at Bełżec. Over 430,000 to 600,000 Jews total died there between 1942-1943
>Yes anti-partisan activity and deportations are also a part of the holocaust now because so much ground has been lost elsewhere. It wasn't just concentration camps, sometimes they just killed them, but sometimes they deported them to be killed later.
You are correct, the Einsatzgruppen were notorious for killing jews during the opening stages of Barbarossa at places such as Ponary, Babi Yar, Odessa and Rumbula. A big misconception is that only Operation Reinhard killed jews, but this does not take into account Ostarbeiter slaves, Einsatzgruppen massacres, non-reinhard camps and village burnings.
>Yet still it all definitely adds up to 6 million somehow.
The estimate is 5-6 million Jews.
>That would explain why most of them survived the war and moved to America and Israel.
The majority of Jews that moved to Israel were from America, Europe's jewish population declined between 1941-1945.

>>19150114
Again the lies and distortions.There were no gassings at Bełżec, all mythology. The Gerstein Report is totally fraudulent.
>You are correct, the Einsatzgruppen were notorious for killing jews during the opening stages of Barbarossa at places such as Ponary, Babi Yar, Odessa and Rumbula. A big misconception is that only Operation Reinhard killed jews, but this does not take into account Ostarbeiter slaves, Einsatzgruppen massacres, non-reinhard camps and village burnings.
Here we go, conflation of anti-partisan activity with a policy of mass ethnic extermination. It helps how murky and poorly recorded it is so they can just make up the numbers to be whatever they want and then support it with unverifiable stories.

>>19150132
>There were no gassings at Bełżec, all mythology. The Gerstein Report is totally fraudulent.
Baseless claims, you provide no evidence to suggest they were false. Gerstein was there and witnessed the gassing of 3,000 Jews.
>Here we go, conflation of anti-partisan activity with a policy of mass ethnic extermination. It helps how murky and poorly recorded it is so they can just make up the numbers to be whatever they want and then support it with unverifiable stories.
The Jews that were killed by Einsatzgruppen massacres were not Partisans, you can see this in the Jäger Report. Can you prove that the Jews at Babi Yar, Ponary, Odessa and Rumbula were all armed Partisans?

>>19150183
Let me tell you the current accepted view of Gerstein

>literally all his claims are fabrication and exaggeration
>Except one time he saw a trainload of Jews gassed. That one thing is completely true.
>we independently verified with other equally sketchy witnesses.

This is the accepted current stance in mainstream academia summarized.

Seems fishy. But this thread is getting off topic, so lets being it back to lit.

>>19149619

>published October 17, 1960

hundreds of new memoirs and diaries have been discovered or published since then which helped to sharpen the picture and re-evaluate events and characters, even if the general initiative behind them was misleading like speer's writings. military guys often waited until end of life in 1970s or 1980s before publishing their memoirs because they didnt want to go through all the shitstorms.
sometimes there are early classics worth reading, like walter scott's napoleon, but nobody would claim that it was the last and most authoritative work on everything.

>>19149619
Thank you for reminding me that there is always someone more retarded than me out there.

Thought Evans' trilogy was the go to on this subject.

The library has Longerich's bio, worth reading?
>>19149591
reddit.

>>19149177
>introduction by Ron Rosenbaum
yikes lmao

what i'd like to read is a narrative history of hitler, not one that revolves around points of contention among historians, but one which authoritatively tells the story in excellent prose, y'know like historians used to do in the past. whenever i pick up a book about hitler, i'm amazed by how dull it is considering the subject.

>>19149619
>made very apparent if you ONLY perform the most basic research into the denialist argumentation.
Fixed that for ya.
Internet research isn’t research.

>>19149914
Shirer mentions at the beginning of the book that WWII was, at the time, the most well-documented war of all time because so much of the losing side's official documents were captured before they were destroyed. There was a light shone into the workings of the Nazi government almost from the beginning, including revealing tons of information about their atrocities. And yet, there is relatively little said about the systemic execution of the jews in the deathcamp system.

>>19149266
That's like saying you can't understand contemporary America without mentioning the twenty unarmed black people killed by police every year

>>19149177
Thanks for reminding me, already had this on my list.
>>19149807
This

As for the rest of the thread, it just devolves into petty bickering on the part of libshits. Thank you for reminding me why I don't come to this board.

>>19149807
>muh Nazi gud bois dindu nuffin

>>19149619
Nuremberg Trial was a farce but come on

>>19150948

>>19149807
>Nobody ever takes into account that the Nazis had to fight the entire Anglo-Jew world and its Bolshevik lapdog at the same time.
Maybe because the Nazis invaded Poland, the Netherlands, Denmark, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, and, of course the USSR (Russia)

>>19149177
>any other and you're reading blatant jewish atrocity propaganda
Or you're reading the truth

>>19151350
better to stay on /pol/ then

>>>/pol/

>>19151576
And the reasoning and official orders on these acts of aggression (and in the case of USSR, their intention of starving 20-30million people with their administrative policies) are preserved and thoroughly documented. Yet, the documentary evidence surrounding death camps doesn't appear to exist.

>>19149619
range ban mutts already

>>19151746
that's your answer for everything

>>19150048

Think about it this way: What do germans love autistically? That's right they love their paperwork/buerocratcy. There's no way a german would lie about something related to his paperwork, that would be impossible because of his autism. Now, were the jews massively disliked before the war? Yes, they were. This here is a list of new arrivals at Auschwitz. This means that germans brought jews to Auschwitz, a group of people they vehemently hated, a group of people they wanted to kill off like lice or rats, and somehow millions of them disappeared without a trace over the war in various camps and massgraves?

That's how retarded denialist sound like.

>>19151648
>if you don't like this board filled with pseuds, you must be apart of another board
thank you for being so enlighting

>>19151815
Hitler tried several times from 1933-1940 to relocate the Jewish people, most famously through the Haavara Agreement. The concentration camps were a last resort. At the very least, that doesn't suggest eagerness to kill.

>>19150048
half of that reading list is nietzsche and his derivatives, you don't get anarchism from that.

>>19149734
>Oh, anyway fascism is kind of a brainlet doctrine
the doctrine of fascism is that there is no doctrine of fascism
it's become the head of state and enforce policy through your power
not only is it applicable for "modern issues" but it is the only thing ever to be applied, period.

>>19149914
>denies the most well-documented systematic genocide in human history
>majority of documentation comes from soviets
ok bud im sure its exactly as joe said it was

>>19149177

Shierer speculates that Germany spent so much time and resources hiding the holocaust, removing any presence of bones, bodies or paperwork, that it ate into their war effort.
When I read this, even though I know he threw it in as a cover-your-ass throwaway. It really poisoned any good feelings I could have about the book.

>>19149619
Is absolutely right, the nazis weren't shy about genocide, after Barbarossa there was the Commissariat order, permitting the execution of any soviet politician, political officer or civil servant. But they went to elaborate lengths to hide the use of genocidal gas chambers, to the extent of speaking in code.
The holocaust is a lie held together by blackmail, coercion and self deception. It just baffles me why people on an anon basketweaving forum would waste their energy defending it.

>>19149807
>Nobody ever takes into account that the Nazis had to fight the entire Anglo-Jew world and its Bolshevik lapdog at the same time.

and le master race still lost lmoa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mayBYcVe7w

>>19149919
I’m not a Holocaust denier, but to think that any historian working at a Western University would be able to take a revisionist standpoint regarding the Holocaust without losing their job is ridiculous. Historians need funding, and all the funding is provided by institutions that would not allow their money to go towards “debunking” one of the most taboo events in the last 100 years.

>>19149919
No such thing as history in good faith, all history is inherently ideological and ideologized in order to fit a specific narrative.

>>19152053
Is this early Hyde?

>>19149177
I got annoyed at his constant moral signaling.

>>19149708
Why are u adding my boys Max and Marx with that retarded ideology?

>>19152276
>The fact is that as a young man Mussolini accepted all the essential theoretical and interpretive propositions of Marx. His published writings between 1902 and 1914 contain innumerable references to Marx and only seven allusions to Babeuf and eight to Proudhon. Both his published writings and what we can reconstruct of his reading during this period indicate a preoccupation with the ideas of Marx that far exceeds any concern he had for other thinkers. Mussolini's point of departure was unquestionably Marx. No adequate reconstruction of his thought is possible if that fixed point is neglected. Not only was he a convinced Marxist, he was a knowledgeable one as well. His published writings contain regular references to the works of Marx and Engels. He specifically refers to every major piece of Marx's published writings available at that time. He alludes to Marx's writings in the Neue Rheinische Zeitung, the "Theses on Feuerbach," "Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right," A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy, The Class Struggles in France, as well as Capital and the Communist Manifesto. In a number of places he not only alludes to The Poverty of Philosophy, but provides extensive quotations as well. He also provides quotations from the Contributions to the Critique of Political Economy, the Marx-Engels correspondence, Marx's articles in the New York Tribune, and the Communist Manifesto. There are references to Engels' The Conditions of the Working Class in England in 1845, quotations from the Anti-Duhring, and Engels' famous introduction to Marx's Class Struggles in France. He was not only familiar with the most important Marxist authors of the period, including Karl Kautsky and Wilhelm Liebknecht, some of whose work he translated, but he had read the works of theoreticians such as G. Plekhanov and Rosa Luxemburg, and Marx critics such as Werner Sombart. ... Whatever one thinks of his Marxism today, Mussolini was accepted by his socialist peers as a Marxist theoretician. He rose to leadership in the Italian Socialist Party at least in part on the basis of his recognized capacity as a socialist intellectual.
and as for stirner
>everything I can control belongs to me
do the math

Evans do be better.

>>19151510
Are there people that seriously don't recognize how badly faked this photograph is? Look at the shadows and placement especially on the left side, it's a very crude job by today's standards. Not to mention it's well known that's not even a German solder's uniform or rifle. If there's so much evidence floating around out there then why did they feel the need to manufacture these photographs?

>>19149177
>Introduction by Ron Rosenbaum

It saddens me that so many people here fail to see through the lies surrounding the National Socialists and the Second World War. Adolf Hitler is a true hero.

>>19149619
All true. Notice none of your detractors tried to disprove anything stated.

>>19149177
It's not though. He's a total axe grinder.

>>19154297
you arent exactly being encouraging by being a degenerate weeb homo

>>19149941
how do you define the German soul and what elements of european life where at threat?

>>19154416
Where do you think you are?

>>19149266
>You can't really talk about the Nazis accurately without discussing their anti semitism and genocide.
nor did op claim that one could or should

>>19149619
>There is no evidence of the holocaust
>It's all a lie made up by the jews
>therefore we should holocaust the jews for lying!

>>19149769
>cult of personality corrupted early ideals
seems like this is unavoidable for fascism

>>19149934
((((((((((((((Browning)))))))))))))))

>>19150183
>you provide no evidence to suggest they were false
?

>>19149177
not much of a holocaust denier myself but i do enjoy reading ron unz's article on the matter, as well as most of his other stuff. though the rest of the shit on this site (barring steve sailor) is just ragebait for wignats desu.
https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-holocaust-denial/

>>19154642
based and sneedpilled

>>19149177
Thomas Childers' book is pretty good.

Alocaust didn appen simple as

>>19154391
Most people can not comprehend the evil of the Jews or their obsession with propaganda and gaslighting or why they would do such things.

>>19149886
No there is not. The evidence is to the contrary.

>>19149892
Most people would rather continue believing in their long held falsehoods than have to re-evaluate so much. The holocaust did not happen. We are in the beginning stages of myth making

>>19149177
>>19154727
Which of these is more /pol/ approved?

>>19154857
Neither I'm pretty sure

>>19150001
>They were there in Poland carrying out the Final Solution.
Challenge: Produce the Fuehrer Order (IMPOSSIBLE!!)

>>19150048
It’d make a national syndicalist before a lefty anarchist. Anarchist thought really suffered when they cucked to commies and barred all right wing interpretations of anarchism from participating in their conventions. Worthlessly ideology that in the end just serves as useful idiots for the commies.

>>19155326
To add, they probably knew rising fascist thought was a more functional and pragmatic interpretation of their aging, outdated socialist thought and were scared of losing power and support.

>>19154021
>it's well known that's not even a German solder's uniform or rifle
It is actually

>>19155497
Prove it.

>>19155044
Hitler rarely gave out many orders. He was rather lazy and gave his subordinates vague ideas about what to do. It was called working towards Hitler. The fact that you don’t know this shows you know nothing about WW2 and the Holocaust.

>>19149266
There are no primary sources that prove the Holocaust, so why should Anglo-Bolshevik fabrications be mentioned? I'd prefer if the book stuck to the facts

>>19154727
Damn that cover is cool. Nazis really knew how to make an aesthetic and role with it

These people are absolutely fucking horrendous.

>>19155649
How is that bad? It is a sketch not a photo. It is depicting someone’s memories and using real photos of executions as a reference. Unless you think that those evil Jews ought to show the exact pose they died in

>>19149619
oh yeah? Well the tee-vee tells me this is wrong. Didn't you watch Schindler's List in school? Read Night by Ellie Wiesel?? Like, umm, not educated much?

>>19155649
These sick Yids get off on this shit. Have been for millenia.

>>19155685
I'm sure most people reading this anons answer to >>19155649 must realize that this level of disconnect with reality doesn't feel right. This is what a shill looks like everyone. Whether he is JIDF, a discord tranny or a chink. Watch out for idiotic statements like these that only exist to enrage, they're most often very subtle. Don't fall jewish ploys.

>>19149619
NOT A SINGLE BODY

>>19149266
Even if the holocaust happened, which it didn't beyond maybe 250k dead Jews among others in camps built for the purpose of slave labour to aid war time manufacturing.
If you're really committed to fighting all of international capitalism to the death then what's really the point of making a big deal about your precious fake 6 million Jews.
Hitler was doing a lot to further the cause of Zionism and Jewish power too although he probably only realised he'd been used when it was already too late and Germany faced total conquest at their hands.

this thread lol

>>19154021
>no see the nazis were actually gud bois who didn't base their economy on theft from a created underclass!!!!!!!

polshit doesn't work on people who actually read

>>19155647
yeah right into the ground haha

>>19157167
>w-well they only gassed maybe 250k jews!!!!

lol cope you fucking faggot, jews were persecuted well before the end of the war too.

>>19150890
/pol/ doesn't like books that use that vast pool of research because it comes to conclusions they don't like.

>>19157558
Nothing you said is true and it makes you look like an arrogant retard. Besides, we are discussing the thought behind it. Read the list posted earlier and get back to us before you embarrass yourself further. I dislike fascism almost as much as communism, but that doesn’t mean there is not a philosophical foundation and school of thought behind it.

Fucking rebbiters

>>19157569
Ok, good. He's not claiming they loved Jews but doubting the chambers of mass death. I for one hope it happened.

thanks for reminding me i have this book, op. i need to actually commit to reading it this time

>>19157624
I was referring to the nazi genocide apologist and you can just cry about it

>>19155549
Are you insane? He gave out hundreds of formal orders, including some which specifically referred to how the citizens of conquered areas were to be treated.

>>19157761
Not your blog

>>19155549
>Hitler rarely gave out many orders. He was rather lazy and gave his subordinates vague ideas about what to do.
Wrong.

>>19157864
cry harder ;)

>>19157878
yeah, like when he ordered a halt on Dunkirk

The beginning parts are good but by the end of the invasion of Poland it gets too general. He literally devoted like 3 sentences to the Mediterranean front that were just “Rommel won. Rommel could’ve won more. Rommel lost.” No naval battles or anything. Read it as a normie then move to more specific works. Pop history like this is too general.

What about this book makes it “non jewish”? He gives a whole chapter to the holocaust and Slavic genocide, and talks a lot about it through the book. Sounds to me like OP hasn’t read enough or just wants to start shit.

>third reich
in title is already a red flag. hitler banned the term from public usage in 1939 because it wasnt organic to the movement.

>>19154021
In awe at the stupidity of this lad. Absolute retard.

>>19157996
>Read it as a normie then move to more specific works. Pop history like this is too general.
I don't think Rise & Fall is really pop history, but I do agree with your general thesis. I give Shirer the benefit of the doubt because it was a pretty early work in the genre. Nonetheless, interested parties will soon seek out works by those like Irving, Tedor, Lewis, &c.

>>19149327
>which might work on confederate flag waving trailer park rubes who never read a book in their lives
that is, in fact, exactly who comprises young hitler fans these days

>>19149225
This isn't pleddit pal, You can discuss Gentile and distributist economics here.

>>19152294
No.

>>19149266
Exactly. Hannah Arendt articulates this in Origins of Totalitarianism

>>19157569
Gas no, zyklon B was lice spray. They had to keep their slaves relatively well if they were to made to do anything.
However maybe some Golem Angloids are bombing your infrastructure and you can't get food to the camps and just let them starve and save the resources for something else.
Big capitalist Jew parasites in western countries dont really care for their lesser brethren in Germany and Ukraine anyways, as (((Hannah Arendt))) Heidigger's old cumbucket slampig suggested.
Personally I would love it if the good old boys killed 6 million, hell I'd have done it, but the evidence just isn't there really.

>>19159498
Nazi Germany literally invented sarin gas that sat in fucking warehouses for the entirety of the war while they supposedly used Zyklon B, a known anti-lice pesticide, to gas jews. It makes no sense at all, these people are just ignorant of the facts desu.

>>19157903
>cry harder

>>19158347
That is, in fact, how you cope. You haven't met a single person who actually is like that. Almost every one of them that waves the confederate flag from a trailer park is retardedly patriotic and hates Hitler, despite knowing nothing about him, simply for the fact that he was a US enemy in WW2.

>>19149266
I'm amused that they all have to be Nazi apologists. None of them will say that the presence of Jews in European societies was problematic but genocide was the wrong way to go about it. They embrace the edge or go denialist. Either way they're proving the ideology is barbaric at its core.

Maybe you should discuss why it was the nazis were anti-semetic in the first place?

>How can you not be an antisemite, being a socialist!

>>19157167
Why didn't the operators or Treblinka come out and say it was faked after they got out of prison?

>>19149941
>I am a National Socialist
What does this mean in the modern day? What do you do day to day that qualifies as National Socialist?

>>19161074
White people collectivism is what it means today, it meant "german people collectivism" in the 30s. I would even argue some members of the NSDAP were even more collectivist than various strains of Marxism. "The common good before the individual good", various moralistic arguments in favor of the "greater good". Then there is something like genuine Fascism which is completely different.

>>19161220
Would WASPs be National Socialist then?

>>19161803
Yes and they as a group especially capture the main error in Nazi ideology, in that it became a weird cult where Hitler took the place of Jesus.
It's a 'healthy' way of functioning but it produces sheeple.

Considering the dire straits the European races are currently in, any and all European children produced is always a plus—however once the birth rates come back to order there would need to be some passive eugenics policies implemented.

>>19149886
There is no evidence, only witness testimony. If you think that the defendants got fair trials at Nuremberg then try reading the articles of the court.

Anyways, for anyone actually interested in the OP book, it falls apart at Barbarossa. I believe this to be due to Shirer losing his vantage point when he left the country. At this point, the book devolves into Keitel based propaganda.

>>19161066
All ideological national socialists either died fighting, committed suicide or were executed.
Those who remained were just going to go along with whatever new regime was in place, Jewish Liberal capitalism or whatever, because that's just what normal people are like.
The alleged holocaust was a narrative created in the 70s after a lot of those guys had died anyways.
Again if it were me I would be loud and proud about having run death camps for Jews living out of my Argentine chalet idk, but then Mossad would make a target of me.

>>19161830
Cutting off food aid to the coloured world would immediately lead to the death of 90 percent of the population gain seen after the Rockefeller's green revolution.
The ones imported as scabs into Europe by its own faggot Bourgeoisie and as biological weapons by the Jews would have to expelled in the coming decades.

>>19149619
Based

>>19149266
There was no hall of costs, my friend.
I encourage you to try to prove it.

I'm referring specifically to the reality that there was no plan to systemically murder jews using gas chambers or any other ruth-ginsberg-type death device as we have seen in various reports. There was nowhere near six million deaths and any deaths which occurred primarily occurred due to typhus and starvation/dehydration.

But you already know this, don't you?

>>19149266
>without discussing their anti semitism and genocide
Found the kike

>>19161074
I'd encourage you to form groups of like-minded people that you personally gather, testing them gradually. Get healthy, get smart, get together, drop the vices peddled to you and realize what they are weaponizing against you.

A NatSoc today is simply trying to spread the ideology and reveal what is actually happening to our world, and how denialism of racial reality and of nationalist pride being healthy to a culturally, economic, and technologically thriving civilization.

Go see the /nsg board sometime on pol when it is up, almost always is, it's the only good thread on that fucking board.

>>19149807
This

>>19162867
Talk shit get hit

>>19160866
Seething 10 hours later lmao

>>19157639
Yeah they just killed them en masse over a protracted period, fucken moron

>>19162870
???

>>19162887
Wow dude showed me

>>19155990
Good catch, m8.
Based.

>>19155990
>completely reasonable response
>uh uh JEWISH PLOY
This is my problem, for me to viscerally empathize with neonazi discomfort I'd have to start from a naive position of believing things like sketches and photos being the same. I was simply never that retarded.

>>19149266
Looool here's your (You)

>>19149807
They didn't have to do that at all. Didn't have to fight Poland, Britain, France, Russia, or the US. They also treated the allies they did have as beneath cooperating with, the Allies took the opposite approach and it's obvious why reality chose the victor it did.

>>19162981
They're literally stealing their suffering and claiming it for their own like fucking energy vampires you sick fuck

>>19162981
You've gotta be fucking with me.
It's a direct refutation of that guy's lie.

>>19149266
>>19149273
>>19149302
>>19149619
>>19154632
>>19157167
>>19161013
>>19162813
>>19162856

just your typical loser, authoritarian bullshit. refuse to take responsibility for past defeats and instead blame humiliations on a minority group. tailor your message to the species of emotional, irrational idiot predisposed to mob violence. lie, lie and lie some more. Nothing unique about it except two significant differences: (1) Hitler attempted this post French-Revolution when most of the Western world had adopted the idea that governments must act based on reason and justice rather than arbitrary bullshit and (2) The depths of Hitler's depravity shocked the conscience of even the most typically ambivalent of men. If there is a silver lining it is that he was so immoral and repugnant, and his failure was so great, that Nazi Germany has become a cautionary tale that has stuck in the minds of citizens of Western nations and beyond who now reject any would-be leader who bears even a superficial similarity to him. Hitler was such a failure for Germany, his defeat so thorough and his actions so revolting that he inadvertently made it very difficult for authoritarianism to ever take hold in a Western nation again.

>>19164326
Sooo much cope

>>19164366
nazis lost lol

>>19164326
>very difficult for authoritarianism to ever take hold...again
I don't think I've ever used this phrase unironically, but I must now: WAKE UP

>>19164326
This kind of thinking often leads the American golem down the path of dying in a war for Israel while his wife and daughters are raped by niggers.
And the Jews that rule you laugh.