/lit/ - Literature

>>19117285
Beyond based

>>19117285
Non-dual ineffable consciousness is the Tao, if the Tao wasn’t our own self, how would it ever be attained? One thing doesn’t ever totally change its nature into being a completely different thing

>>19117285
>Contrivance is... le BAD!

Stop reading, just do your job and watch TV

>>19117362
That’s from a very old (and poor quality) translation, I believe.

>>19117444
What was Zhuangzi's endgame?

>>19117455
You're living in it.

>>19117285
He's right unironically. Everything since the development of animal consciousness has been a shitshow.

RETVRN TO PLANT

>>19117465
I don't get it
Stop being vague

>>19117455
Getting humans to accept the incoherence of the idiosyncratic moralities, the worthlessness of their most prized treasures, and their complete inability to ever understand the universe they live in.

>>19117476
Of those that receive life from the earth, the pine and cypress alone are best—they stay as green as ever in winter or summer.

>>19117481
What about suffering? Was it all for nothing? I am sorry if sound a sick man plagued by teleology.

>>19117498
Life on earth peaked with the conifers.

>>19117505
In a word, yes. Both suffering and happiness are ‘for nothing’ - everything has been fated from the beginning.

>>19117537
How this position is different from atheism/agnosticism?

>>19117549
Well, Zhuangzhi wasn’t an atheist.
> So now I think of heaven and earth as a great furnace, and the Creator as a skilled smith. Where could he send me that would not be all right? I will go off to sleep peacefully, and then with a start, I will wake up.
From the Great and Venerable Teacher (Chapter 6).
Also, it’s not just a religious position, it includes ethics and epistemology. Most atheists and agnostics these days are in the thrall of scientism and humanism, and think they have grasped knowledge of both the universe and of right and wrong. Both are extreme foolishness.

>>19117575
How does he defines the Creator? How does he deal with the problem of evil?

>>19117595
He doesn’t say much about the creator - how could you?
> [It is enough that] morning and evening we have them, and they are the means by which we live. Without them, we would not exist; without us, they would have nothing to take hold of. This comes close to the matter. But I do not know what makes them the way they are. It would seem as though they have some True Master, and yet I find no trace of him. He can act—that is certain. Yet I cannot see his form. He has identity but be! [It is enough that] morning and evening we have them, and they are the means by which we live. Without them, we would not exist; without us, they would have nothing to take hold of. This comes close to the matter. But I do not know what makes them the way they are. It would seem as though they have some True Master, and yet I find no trace of him. He can act—that is certain. Yet I cannot see his form. He has identity but no form.
As to the problem of evil, it is not typically considered a problem since the term ‘omnibenevolent’ is seen as incoherent.

>>19117637
Fuck I accidentally mangled the quote. Sorry
> be! [It is enough that] morning and evening we have them, and they are the means by which we live. Without them, we would not exist; without us, they would have nothing to take hold of. This comes close to the matter. But I do not know what makes them the way they are. It would seem as though they have some True Master, and yet I find no trace of him. He can act—that is certain. Yet I cannot see his form. He has identity but no form.

>>19117637
>>19117649
Thank you for answering my questions anon. I almost want to agree with him 100% but problem of evil is a big one for me which far outweighs the good.

>>19117285
Good translation?

>>19117702
Personally I think the problem of evil only matters if your God is being explicitly defined with ‘goodness’ I.e Platonism. If Goodness doesn’t really exist, then why would God be good? And why would he single out humans over other creatures? We do all right for ourselves.

>>19117706
Feng & English

>>19117719
In that regard I get what you're saying and it does make sense. But right now I am more sympathetic to Schopenhauer's irrational and blind Will rather than a "rational" or "conscious" something.

>thousands of people rave about le eastern mysticism constantly
>meanwhile no one cares about plato, wittgenstein, spinoza, hegel anymore

>>19117758
>plato
Yes we do, there are constant Plato threads
>wittgenstein, spinoza, hegel anymore
Because Guenon (pbuh) exposed the foolishness of modern western philosophy

>>19117747
Well Zhuangzhi never claimed to know anything, so you don’t need to be dogmatic. Personally I have the similar reservations, though I am hesitant to say whether Will/Absolute/One/Tao/Logos is rational or irrational, because how could a limited human ever know?

>>19117758
I’ve never heard anyone in real life talk about Zhuangzhi. I’ve heard more talk about every philosopher you mentioned.

>>19117779
>because how could a limited human ever know?
By looking at the state of things in this world where evil far outweighs the "good". So one can say something about it's attributes though this way.

Here "Creator as a skilled smith", "Where could he send me that would not be all right?" Zhuangzi implied his goodness and some sort of rationality

>>19117758
Boobs...br

>>19117818
How do you know that the evil outweighs the good? You look around and say ‘this is evil’ and ‘that is good’? To the wolf it’s own death would be an evil thing, but it is a good thing to the deer. But can either be said to be right? Is we take what humans call good to be goodness, we would only have ‘good for humans’.
> They look on life as a swelling tumor, a protruding wen, and on death as the draining of a sore or the bursting of a boil. To men such as these, how could there be any question of putting life first or death last?

>>19117862
>How do you know that the evil outweighs the good?
Imagine the neck of the Zebra in the jaws of a Lion, now compare the pain of Zebra with the pleasure of predator and decide for yourself.

>>19117476
Eukaryotic consciousness and its consequences have been a disaster for living creatures

RETVRN TO BACTERIVM

>>19117862
And humans have shaped the world according to what is 'good for humans'. Though whether what we have done to the earth is actually good for humans or just short sighted decisions that were actually bad for us, we'll probably never know.

>>19117758
Everything christcucks touch automatically becomes soulless and stale shit. This is why I refuse to acknowledge western philosophers after late antiquity.

>>19117758
where to start with hegel?

>>19117481
>>19117537

I'm starting John Gray "Soul of the Marionette" right now, which is about the non-existence if free will.
It's Daoism a refuge in a world without meaning? The answer being "yes this is meaningless, stop thinking about it, get as close to a 'flow state' as you can"

> In ancient Europe, Stoics asserted that a slave could be freer than a master who suffers from self-division. In China, Daoists imagined a type of sage who responded to the flow of events without weighing alternatives. Disciples of monotheistic faiths have believed something similar: freedom, they say, is obeying God’s will. What those who follow these traditions want most is not any kind of freedom of choice. Instead, what they long for is freedom from choice.

>>19117882
But the pain of the Zebra helps more than just the Lion. The corpse will help scavengers, and the waste of that will feed insects. The plants will grow taller since one less animal is eating them, and in turn the other grazing animals will have more to eat.

>>19117781
Mom always says "why can't you be more like Zhuangzhi" ... so tired of it.

>>19117903
Isn't the english translation of "Islam" "submission" and one of the basic undercurrents of the religion that one has to submit to the will of Allah?

>>19117908
You're pretending like it's a one time event and for specie of animal. I am here discussing the billions of years of slaughter in animal kingdom. What "good" is the rise of predatory and screams of the prey and good for what? What good is in events like Murder of Junko Furuta? And too imagine this all of this has happen thousands and thousands of times is too much.

>>19117894
Le tip.

>>19117932
>Le tip

>>19117903
Daoism is heavily fatalist, that is true.
> Zhuangzi’s wife died. When Huizi went to convey his condolences, he found Zhuangzi sitting with his legs sprawled out, pounding on a tub and singing. “You lived with her, she brought up your children and grew old,” said Huizi. “It should be enough simply not to weep at her death. But pounding on a tub and singing—this is going too far, isn’t it?”
Zhuangzi said, “You’re wrong. When she first died, do you think I didn’t grieve like anyone else? But I looked back to her beginning and the time before she was born. Not only the time before she was born, but the time before she had a body. Not only the time before she had a body, but the time before she had a spirit. In the midst of the jumble of wonder and mystery, a change took place and she had a spirit. Another change and she had a body. Another change and she was born. Now there’s been another change and she’s dead. It’s just like the progression of the four seasons: spring, summer, fall, winter.
“Now she’s going to lie down peacefully in a vast room. If I were to follow after her bawling and sobbing, it would show that I don’t understand anything about fate. So I stopped.”

>>19117903
>>19117943
>Most—even those who found the Chuang-tzu a delightful read—continued to be beset by those “thousand natural shocks”: their father would get ill or get angry; their mother would die unexpectedly; they would suddenly find themselves pregnant or needing to support someone who was pregnant; and the government would demand its tax payments. Chuang-tzu tells the reader “to live in the boundless,” but not what to do when the rent is due, or when the children are hungry, or when the taxman comes. Is a hungry baby to be told to “steer by the torch of doubt” and to “be useless”? Is a baby who falls into a well to be left to fall to its death? Is a neighbor who is being attacked to be left to the mercy of her attacker?
>To the writers of what we have as the Chuang-tzu, one does not really have to solve any such problems: we simply have to see life as it truly is, and allow life’s grand pageant to unfold. And that is a beautiful ideal by which to live… though, if one has children who consequently die of neglect, family members will be aggrieved, neighbors will be outraged, and the authorities will indict one for homicide.

Zhuangzi btfo

>>19117941
>hindu tradcath
>two worst religious traditions combined
What an abomination. Should be burned at the stake by the sunni-protestant alliance.

>>19117931
You’re still looking at it like an animal, hating pain, hating death. But the world is a in a constant process of change. One thing dies and another pops up. Sure, life may be painful, but truly the time of a life is almost nothing, and pain and suffering pass quickly. Besides, a zebra felled by a lion feels pain for only a few moments, but one brought low by sickness may take weeks of suffering to perish.

>>19117974
Whoever said this got filtered extremely hard. The point isn’t to solve all of one’s petty problems (all problems are petty), but to realize that what happens ultimately isn’t significant. If the children die of neglect, that is unfortunate - but Zhuangzhi doesn’t tell you to starve your children. The point is that when your child dies, you don’t allow it to affect something so unimportant affect you. Those who will get angered by these words are still attached to things.

>>19117985
Here's your based protties bro

>>19117498
>>19117531
Is there a created thing more magnificent than the mighty CEDAR?

>>19117758
gottem

>>19117531
Start with the Ferns

>>19117901
Hegel's shorter logic. Or the big one Science of logic.

>>19117595
Evil doesn't exist. Grow up.

>>19117894
>Everything christcucks touch automatically becomes soulless and sta-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ciq9Sefqun8

>>19117988
No, animals live in a special kind of darkness without self awareness. And I am not hating death but on the contrary death might be our best hope but it is still cruel for his loved ones of the dying and pain he went through in the life time before dying, the only I am showing hate towards is birth and the curse of consciousness. To be aware of one's own pain and especially the pain of others is the most human attribute. My real objection was with >>19117818 which implies a Goodness and rationality of "skilled smith". What kind of skilled smith would send Junko Furuta "that would not be all right?"

>>19118065
Based and evergreenpilled

>>19117943
thank you for the info

I don't think daoist thought can save me at this point. There is no reason to live, there will never be reason to live. I can make an effort to think less, that is a useful technique. But it will be like pushing away the nightmare, waiting for death

>>19118269
We live in a society where everyone thinks they know they truth. Christians swear that they will go to heaven and others to hell; atheists think that nothingness awaits. But truly, how could anyone ever know? How could you even begin to assign probabilities or evaluate the differences?
Just like there is no reason to live, there is also no reason to die.

>>19118325
yes and?

>I have seen that morality is never absolute, and that everything is impermanent so seemingly meaningless
>Therefore, stop being rational, stop having emotions, stop using your will, because it is le Bad

>>19118368
I am beginning to think these translations are worthless, or that Chinese brains are too alien to relate with

>>19118379
>that Chinese brains are too alien to relate with
ja!

>>19118105
Opera is inherently pagan, the early operas were meant to imitate the Choruses of the ancient Greek theaters, nearly all the serious operas until the 19th century revolve around ancient roman and greek history, mythology or philosophy. Christianized operas are split in a different genre called oratorio.

>>19118099
Thank you

>>19117285
It never says that, dipshit.

>>19117362
I mean, he's not wrong. Too much knowledge can be a curse.

>>19117941
remember when people without personalities would just get a weird hat? better days

>>19117481
Incredibly based post

>>19117498
>Ywn live in the coniferous period

Sucks man

>>19117758
The west is dying. East persists.

Cope, bitch. Also, I have no fucking idea what you're talking about, there are always tons of serious Western philosophy threads on here.

Only thing I ever see in a thread about say, Daoism most of the time is "lel, ching Chong, bing bong"

>>19117781
This

>>19117882
So you're telling me that eating is evil now? What gives you the right to judge, you lowly mortal pig.

>>19117943
That isn't fatalistic, that reads like right out optimism.

Taoist philosophy is incredibly based. Lmao-ing at all these trad-cuck newbies struggling to grasp it.

>>19119261
It’s both. In Daoism accepting fate is seen as mentally freeing, since instead of struggling against it you go along with the process of change.

God as Father.
True, if God were to be described in human terms, he is more masculine than feminine, in that his predominant side is strong, protective and valorous.
However, there is also a softer side to a God, a motherly side. A supply of unconditional mercy which influences the masculine aspect.

Also, while God as Father has developed a fair and balance system for his reasons, God as Mother can not help but harmonize this system, due to God's intrinsic oneness with creation. The Mother works through synchronicity and divine wholeness. An atemporal causal link between two separate events. Dream is destiny.