/lit/ - Literature

>>19032962
Oldest Hebrew manuscripts of the OT are still younger than the Septuagint. You're better off focusing on Koine Greek

>>19032972
Don't you think that the unavoidable damage done by translating something into another language may, at least in theory, be greater than the damage possibly done by editing the text (either on purpose or not) for a longer time?

>>19032986
There's been a shitton of researchers in the 19-20th century doing studies on it, some say it's unreliable in parts, others say it's fine, but no one says the Greek is completely removed from the original. You're better off doing comparisons between the sep and the others

>>19032986
But the Masoretic text is written in Hebrew, not in Ancient Hebrew. It's still a different language. Ancient Hebrew didn't even have vowels. Also if you care about religion, almost all Christians used the LXX / Latin so that's the official version.

>>19032962
old testament is basically just the talmud so you'll have to learn hebrew if you wanna dive into that obviously. the foundational scholarship building up the new testament is p much koine greek also. do with that what you will
you might be interested in lutheranism since they're obsessed with this idea of an original canon

>>19032962
No, learn it to read the Torah, Talmud and Zohar

>>19032962
The problem with the Septuagint is that the quality of the translation varies quite a lot from book to book. The Pentateuch section is agreed to be high quality, Isaiah on the other hand is one of the worst ones and full of mistakes. Translations are also never 1:1 reproductions of the original, here it's even worse since Hebrew and Greek are not even remotely related. Just read both of them.
>>19033099
The torah is just the first 5 books of the bible.

>>19032962
Why don't you learn Hebrew and Koine Greek and find out whether the Septuagint faithfully represents the OT?

Hebrew also isn't a complete waste. It facilitates the learning of other Semitic languages like Syriac (which has lots of obscure mystical and ascetic writings, hymns, poetry, and the Syriac Bible whose name I forget) and you have Arabic, whose writings don't even need to be mentioned.

>>19032962
yeah, good luck finding an original, hebrew bible. in ancient hebrew, all tidied up for you.

>>19033918
>Why don't you learn Hebrew and Koine Greek and find out whether the Septuagint faithfully represents the OT?

To be honest, this seems to require the pursuit of a whole field of studies that is well beyond learning the basics of Greek and Hebrew.

>>19034022
Well you ain't going to read the Bible with only the basics of Hebrew and Greek

>>19032962
Pretty much everyone in this thread so far is wrong.
The OT can ONLY be read in Hebrew. the guy says the Talmud is basically the OT is beyond retarded and knows nothing about Judaism

You cannot read the OT in Hebrew without an assistance from a rabbi or someone who can actually read it, if your not a native speaker that is.

I, a Hebrew who know fluent Hebrew am having difficult time reading the bible. you cannot compare it to modern Hebrew

The greek and latin version are plain wrong and have many mistakes.

Anyone who says the Septuagint is older than the original texts written in ancient Babylon is clearly not knowledgeable on the history of the region

Good on you for trying to learn the original language to learn the original text, but i don't think you cant do it without guidance.

Take ecclesiasts for example - i cannot even begin to explain to you how the english and greek text are different from the original.

Things get lost in translation in every culture, its just how language works

>>19034066
I don't know why 4chan spaced my paragraphs but whatever

>>19034066
I'm pretty sure OP is talking about biblical Hebrew, not going through a modern Hebrew Duolingo course.

>>19034066
>You cannot read the OT in Hebrew without an assistance from a rabbi
HAHAHAHAHAHA

>>19034066
>Good on you for trying to learn the original language to learn the original text, but i don't think you cant do it without guidance.

Why would that be? Do you mean that I can't learn Biblical Hebrew without a teacher, or that I won't be able to correctly interpret the Bible anyway without an expert?

I've already learned other languages in order to read something that was important to me.

do you know Latin?
if not: buy Lingva Latina Per Se Illvstrata Pars I et II
it is the most important language to learn for academic/scholarly purposes bar none, and then you can read the Vulgate
after Latin, go for Koine Greek, then you can read the Septuagint and the Koine manuscripts of the New Testament
after that, now it's time for Hebrew

>>19034066
Kill yourself you insufferable kike

>>19032962
Waste of time, focus on something recent that hasnt been chewed through a thousand times before already.

>>19032972
Absolutely based post, finally someone else gets it. I have been saying this for years.

The proof is the Samaritan Pentateuch (very very early first 5 books of OT), which agrees with the Septuagint (and the Vulgate!!) better than with the Masoretic text. The Masoretic was created during the Middle Ages by amateurs with very poor resources. The Septuagint and the Vulgate were created by experts with access to better quality manuscripts.

>>19032962
No. Read it in Latin like intended.

>>19032962
Learn Modern and ancient Hebrew, 3 kinds of Arabic, Latin, Ancient Greek, German, French, English, go to Israel, Hebrew university, PhD, dead sea scrolls, mushrooms. Now, you have READ THE BIBLE

Jesus tends to quote the Septuagint, not the Hewbrew Bible. Make of that what you will.

>>19035778

>>19033061
>doesn't really know anything about Hebrew
It's the older Hebrew manuscripts that actually had to employ the use of consonants to represent vowels in contrast to the texts that were written after the development of Hebrew diacritics.

>>19032986
Christians couldnt give a shit about translation or accuracy. 99% don't even know Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke, nor do they know Greek. This Christian tendency to translate scripture and forget the original has caused only trouble for Christians.

>>19037088
Jesus probably didn't even know Greek

>>19037880
Jesus is God lol

>>19037888
Christians tend to underplay the Davidic line that Christ was supposed to be a part of(as evident from the texts of the OT) mainly because they worship Jesus like a bunch of hindus. So Christians(protestant-influenced folks) think Jesus was some white guy, or was beyond race or something which is beyond retarded. The whole messiah from the line of David thing was comepletely overshadowed and forgotten by Christians.

>>19032972
The Septuagint version of Daniel was so shit that it had to be replaced by Theodotion's translation.

https://youtu.be/a0zg6jbTSyo

>>19032962
>From a quick google search I understand that the Septuagint, while being a translation into another language, has been finalized 1000 years before the Masoretic text, therefore the latter may have been edited more.
Though Jews may like to "edit" scripture, generally, Christians(Greeks) are worse at conserving. That said, for Christians, learning Greek is absolutely essential, then learning Hebrew. But if you want to save your soul, learn Arabic.

>>19034066
I've learned Hebrew from two gentiles. I'm a better reader than most Jews. I do not know any Modern Hebrew. I have also translated the entire BA corpus and multiple Aramaic manuscripts. Rabbis are far from necessary.

>>19032962
Learn whatever you can, OP. The best versions of the Hebrew Bible are not perfect. There are many flaws, but the nature and significance of those flaws is a topic for another time. Because of these flaws, a scholar ought to learn multiple languages, such as Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and even Ge'ez, to both aid in comprehension and resolve debates. Sometimes, a word can mean very different things, and you may have reason to suspect that it was misspelled or pointed wrong. As such, it is helpful to check the Vulgate or Septuagint.
As a learner of Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin, and Greek, the first two are my favorite. For some reason, Greek is challenging for me. Latin can be fun, but I love Hebrew and Aramaic the most. The biggestvissue, for me, with Hebrew and Aramaic is that their corpses are quite limited. Consider why you want to learn a language, among other things, before you do so. All of these languages can be difficult, so it is important to have your priorities somewhat straight and maybe even have a friend / class to make the journey with you.

>>19037880
He definitely knew some Greek. Greek, contrary to popular opinion, was the language of the Roman Empire. Maybe, he couldn't deliver the Sermon on the Mount in Greek, but he certainly could get by, as would most city dwellers and travellers in Israel at that time. Greek was spoken in Israel for hundreds of years before Jesus was born. In fact, Greek was so commonly spoken among Jews that they made a Greek translation of the Bible.

>>19038267
>But if you want to save your soul, learn Arabic
Why? Please elaborate

>>19038848
I realize Biblical Hebrew corpus is quite limited, and it's a pretty weird project to learn a whole language just to read the Bible.

How did you make the jump from learning from a textbook to read the Bible? With other languages, there is usually a long period where one gradually tackles graded readers (if available), and then easy material (children books, non fiction, translations, and so on) until one is confident enough to go to literature. But how does this work with Hebrew? Do you jump straight into reading the Bible?

OP here, I just wanted to let you guys know that I'm now more confused about this issue than when I created this thread. I'll keep learning Hebrew anyway because I hope it will impress girls. Thank you.

>>19039297
Qur'an

How did you come to the conclusion that Islam is what will save your soul? Or are you just attracted by its culture and conservative values?

>>19039359
How did you come to the conclusion that Islam is what will save your soul? Or are you just attracted by its culture and conservative values?

>>19039312
Yes
With Hebrew, my small class started reading in the second semester. We started out with Cook's workbook in the first semester, which is nice but somewhat bs and perhaps too limited, and then, we switched to Weingreen, which we'd revisit while reading the Bible. There were various things that held us back, such as covid, number of meetings per week, and lacking student dedication, but we were really reading from the Bible after one semester. In the fall one of the instructors, another student from Hebrew, and I studied Aramaic. This was the instructor's first time teaching a language or a class by himself, but he did an excellent job. We met four times a week, and in the second week, we had already started reading from Daniel. By the end of the semester, the three of us finished the entire BA corpus. We continued studying together, but I'll leave it there so as to not dox myself publicly any further.
Let's say you have already learned a bunch of things from textbooks and you want to move on. You're asking yourself "What should I read?" The Pentateuch is a good place to start. The stories are very well-known and approachable. Avoid poetry in the beginning; grammar can be a problem.
Have reasonable expectations. My professors know no one who picks up a text written in a dead language and reads it like a modern novel. You will always have a dictionary by your side (online) and find yourself using lots of tools. I find learning in a class with others very helpful. Maybe, that doesn't matter to you. If not, great. If so, you may want to find a class of some kind, form a class out of friends, or approach people to teach you.

>>19039538
Did the workbooks you used contain reading practice, or did you do any kind of intensive reading practice while you were studying grammar in the first semester?

I'm using Seow's grammar and I'm wondering whether I should integrate it with something like this https://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Hebrew-Text-Workbook-Language/dp/0300043945 (basically just another textbook, except that every section starts with a passage from the Bible and guides you through a series of exercises designed to extract some grammar points from that passage) or this https://www.amazon.com/Graded-Reader-Biblical-Hebrew-Second/dp/031009335X (a collection of biblical passages with commentary on things that could trip you up)

>>19039377
Because it has the purest scripture.

>>19039630
It may be preserved perfectly but it counts for nothing if the text is something I don't care about to start with.

>>19039645
>I don't care about to start with.
Religion isn't about you, nor is scripture. it is about God. If you do not open your heart for submission, then how can God fill your heart with His Word?

>>19039707
There are several religions though, so I get to choose, and I choose Christianity

>>19039718
Remember, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

>>19039724
By deciding that the God of the Quran is the right one, haven't you already made an image of him? I feel like there is no way of starting without prejudices.

But what I know about Christianity speaks to me, and what I know about Islam seems moronic, so what would you do in my place?

>>19039729
Muslims do not make images of God with their hands or their hearts like Christians do. Nor do the Jews.

>But what I know about Christianity speaks to me, and what I know about Islam seems moronic, so what would you do in my place?
"And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient." Quran 5:47

>>19039742
> Muslims do not make images of God with their hands or their hearts like Christians do

Yeah this bothers me

>"And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient." Quran 5:47

You still haven't give me a reason why I should believe in the Quran, so quoting the Quran to prove your point doesn't add anything

>>19039757
I am not attempting to prove anything, christian. Is the scripture given to you and those before you not proof enough? Read your scripture, should God ordain signs in them for you too see.

>>19039612
Both textbooks start out with very fake sentences. After learning how to transliterated your name and a few other things, you translate sentences like, "The king went to the well." After doing those, you'll get dumbed down versions of Bible verses and then some real Bible verses.

>>19032962
theword.net.

It has everything you need with translations, etc... in aramaic, koine greek, hebrew, etc.

>>19039645
>>19039718
>>19039729
>>19039757
You should honestly look at all abrahamic religions if you are interested in Christianity. Read all the books, and then you should decide. Religion shouldn't be something you just choose because you like it, it should be because you see it as the truth, unless you LARP.

Does someone here use Aleph with Beth for learning Biblical Hebrew? I'm wondering to what level they're teaching the language. Say I'm working through all 75 lessons they've published so far: would that enable me to read some easier parts of the OT already?

>>19042066
Bump. Come on, I know people here know Hebrew.

>>19033223
>The torah is just the first 5 books of the bible.
It depends on who you ask. The term Torah is nebulous and can include almost anything.

>>19041345
I see what you are saying, but how do you ever get convinced that a religion is true? We aren't able to prove those kinds of truths with watertight logic, and faith feels like a combination of desires and reasons we don't really want to examine closely.

I feel an attraction toward Christianity because:

1 - to quote the John Malkovich character from 'The new pope': it has the most beautiful story

2 - it seems to go very hard against common sense on a number of points, but the more I experience life the more I find it to be a source of deep insights exactly on those points

This project of reading the Bible will take several years in the best of cases. If I ever finish, I may one day decide to read the Quran too, who knows? Out of curiosity, why do you think I should look just at the abrahamic religions?

No one on this god forsaken board is smart enough to learn ancient Hebrew

if you're reading masoretic text you're not reading the original
though to be fair we don't have the originals for the general populace to read
not to mention you have people trying to force modern hebrew-isms over paleo-hebrew

>>19044997
Would you elaborate a bit on this? Were the originals in a very different language from the Masoretic text? I've read that they added vowels, but was under the impression that the language was the same.

>>19042066
Yes, Beth is kinda hot for a Jew.

>>19042251
I know modern Hebrew kapara, it's enough to get through most stuff, but the most poetic parts are like reading Chaucer for us. Wish I knew Aramaic too.

>>19044997
Is there such a thing as the "originals"? I thought the Dead sea scrolls etc show that they are evolving stories.

>>19046281
>evolving stories
only post-christian academics(jews) believe that. scripture has been corrupted by the hands of rabbis for thousands of years. But the Old Testament as we know it today has largely been the same since the time of Muhammad.

>>19046379
sadly untrue

>>19046261
> Yes
Okay, thanks.
> Beth is kinda hot for a Jew.
I think they're both just (Anglo) Protestants, but otherwise I agree.

>>19046251
biblical hebrew died some 1700 years before the masoretic texts came into being

go figure

>>19047121
So why do we call the hebrew of the masoretic text biblical hebrew? Is the same language written with different characters, or a completely different language?

>>19047300
I havent heard anyone claiming the masoret editions to be as exact as Old hebrew, besides maybe judaics themselves which read Torah from the masoret tradition.

>Is the same language written with different characters, or a completely different language?
There are differences in letters because as someone already mentioned Old hebrew didnt have vowels. I wouldnt necessarily call it a different language, but more like a dead language which got tinkered in time by scholars depending on their own native language. Like imagine someone taking classical Latin today and adding various new linguistical features to it and using it within a scholarly circle for generations, thats basically the relation of Old hebrew, masoret hebrew and modern hebrew of today

Regardless, i would encourage you to study both. Its fun reconstructing old hebrew back from koine greek and there are professors in the field that attempted to do just that. But reading the modern Torah using modern hebrew is also a good start, if you're not affected by the religious implications if doing it that is

I really like Abigail Sahpiro's figure, should I learn hebrew?

>>19038797
BA corpus? Apologies if I'm a tard here.

>>19032962
The original is Greek. Hebrew is for the fanfiction version.

>>19049268
Nothing in Greek is original

>>19049755
cope kike

>>19035778
If you hate Jews why bother reading the book written by Jews? It's weird how Christian antisemites literally worship a Jewish man.

Latin is all you need.

>>19034066
>Getting gatekept by a bleeding rabbi
>Verification not required.
Das ist der wille von Gott

>>19049155
Biblical Aramaic. That would include portions of Ezra and Daniel. Aramaic was once a very important language. If you're not familiar I'd suggest learning a little bit about it. The Persians abandoned Persian as their official language and switched to Aramaic. The script you associate with Hebrew actually comes from Aramaic. Syriac is frequently referred to as a form of Aramaic, and the script used for it led to the Arabic's writing system. Tons of Jewish writings, such as the Targums and Talmud, were written in Aramaic, though in a different dialect. Jesus spoke Aramaic.

>>19051553
The old testament of the Vulgata is mostly translated from the masoretic text.

>>19053919
Remind me, what century the Vulgate was assembled in? and what centuries were the Masoretic Text believed to be created? and when is the oldest Masoretic Text manuscript from?

>>19054140
The oldest complete manuscripts we have from the Masoretic line is much later than the Vulgata, but it doesn't mean that there weren't oldest versions.

>>19032972
Redpilled post. Avoid the Hebrew at all costs

>>19034066
>You cannot read the OT in Hebrew without an assistance from a rabbi or someone who can actually read it, if your not a native speaker that is.
I think you’ve been subverted by your own kind

>>19054469
The Vulgate is older than the Masoretic Text, the Vulgate did make use of Hebrew manuscripts but they were not the Masoretic Text.

>>19052666
*Der Wille Gottes, keep that frenchy-anglo """genitive""" construction outta my language.

>>19055871
It's you who used genitive. In his sentence, Gott is dative.