/lit/ - Literature

>>19022403
Damn she's a cutie, I'd love to go out to a nice restaurant and get to know her better, then drive her home like a gentleman and text her the next morning that I had a good time

>>19022403
Brunnhilde, take me to Valhalla

>>19022403
Modern Greeks don't look like that. They look like a cross between turks and Europeans. She is probably mixed

>>19022417
>>19022424
That's a very manly face, faggots. This is a cutie.

>>19022617
man have better faces so...

>>19022403
>tattoos
into the garbage bin

>>19022403
no, Oeroeg sucks

>>19022403
Why do some Greeks look almost Nordic like this, and some look like they came out of Saudi Arabia?

>>19022617
I'm not a 18yo twink

>>19022617
Damn, looks like a prettier version of my ex.

>>19023298
that’s most european countries, mutt

>>19023298
It's the Doric bloodline.

>>19023320
Yes, but in this case I'm referring to the natives.

Because someone needs to fucking answer.
It depends on what you mean by Greeks (the specific ethnicity or within the framework of Greek language and Hellenistic civilization?)

Theology: Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, Maximos the Confessor.
History: Anna Comnena

When it comes ro modern literature, read the novella "The Murderess" by Alexandros Papasiamantis. It's considered the closest Greece has approached Dostoevsky.

The poetry of Giorgos Sederis and Odysseas Elytis has won the Nobel prize. Worth a look, particularly Elytis (captures the spirit of the Greek sun and sea)

>>19023298
A lot of migration from the Middle East, Levant and North Africa happened to southern Europe at the end of the classical period (and before, and since, but especially then). That's why among Greeks, Spaniards, southern Italians etc there are many mixed people.

>>19023479
>A lot of migration from the Middle East, Levant and North Africa happened to southern Europe at the end of the classical period (and before, and since, but especially then).
What specific events was this tied to? I'm assuming one was the Arab conquests, but was there anything else that brought this about?

>>19023493
Not specific events but mostly just the result of being part of empires that span around the Mediterranean. But also sometimes entire tribes were displaced from one country/continent to another, as punishment or reward or strategically. Anyway the bigger the Roman empire specifically grew, the more migration happened, especially after the granting of status of Roman citizen to all inhabitants of the empire instead of just to actual Romans and a few exceptions.
Not the Arab conquest, at least not directly, most of it happened before that. The Arab conquest changed the makeup of many North African countries which then also spread into Iberia so some of it also happened there during the centuries after.

>>19022403
Kazatzakis for prose and a whole list of poets

>>19023560
Let's not forget that Ibero-berbers were practically white people before sahara and the arabs blaced them into Oblivion.

>>19023720
Yes of course, Berbers could be considered white/European. They look very different from Arab North Africans.

>>19022403
that's a MAN, BABY.

>ctrl+f "Cavafy"
>no results
Christ /lit/ sucks now. Just sad.

>>19024363
you could have posted it instead of virtue signaling your meme cred.

>>19023493
Byzantium. Constantine used Christianity to amass bureaucratic and political power in a new power center (the pre-existing city of Byzantium), and in doing so started a repeated process of Byzantium bringing in Christians from across the Semitic world to Byzantium. Some calamity would happen in the periphery, Byzantium would then take Semitic Christians would open arms, it would reassert itself and create more Semitic Christians, some calamity would happen and they'd come to Byzantium, etc.

>>19024490
I did

>>19024539
This reminds me of something but I can't quite put my finger on it

>>19023820
>tuareg

>>19023493
And even before that in the pre-bronze age when farming spread.

Its more a case of many people in the Levant and North Africa becoming darker *after* the Roman period due to the Arab conquests and 1000 years of trans-Saharan slave trading. That is why there is significant SSA admixture in places like Syria, Iraq, Egypt that didn't exist really during the classical era.

>>19023349
What do you mean by "looking like Saudis" that is a wide ranging phenotype.

Greeks cluster closer with other southern Euro and Caucasus groups than Arabs. There have been like 4 big studies in the last decade or so that show this.

>>19023479
>many mixed people.

"mixed" with what? The Near Eastern genes found in modern southern euro populations are mostly from the Neolithic expansion of farming with minor contributions in recent millennia (the Roman imperial age and the spread of Islam). Greeks, Italians and Spaniards still cluster closer to other European pops than Arabs or other Semetic speakers.

The problem arises when some autistic moron who knows nothing about modern human physical anthropology sees a picture of a Greek or Italian with a tan and dark hair and says "L00k that is admixture!!!11 that is a moorr11!!!"

>>19024539
The historical and anthological data doesn't really support that notion, otherwise we would see it reflected in DNA testing of Byzantine era skeletons. Pre-modern cities (esp ones of the size of Constantinople) are always population sinks, plenty of people came to the city but plenty were also dying at the same time. That is why when the Turks finally captured it the Sultan had to bring in boatloads of people to repopulate the city because entire sections of it had been abandoned to sheep and goat pasture in the centuries before 1453.

>>19022617
>That's a very manly face
A handsome manly face. If you want kids you need that to counteract your ugly ass genes

>>19023479
Not even true as proven by genetics on countless occasions at this point. The Peak of Roman civilisation was more Arab than it is today.

>>19025870
ive seen the reconstruction of roman emporers through history and its starts white as hell only to get darker and darker as it collapse i dont buy what you are selling

>>19025881
Reconstructions aren't good places to base your opinions from since there is 100 different kinds at this point. The evidence is rather conclusive. Rome became whiter as the years went on not the inverse. Imperial Era Romans clustered closer to Turks, East Meds and Levantines. It was only leading into the Late Antiquity and the Middle ages that they began to sway closer to Northern Europeans.

>>19025881
He is referring to this study

https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.aay6826?_ga=2.261268932.854585879.1631331587-140145338.1630856224

>Of 48 individuals sampled from this period, only two showed strong genetic ties to Europe. Another two had strong North African ancestry. The rest had ancestry connecting them to Greece, Syria, Lebanon, and other places in the Eastern Mediterranean and Middle East.

The problem is that the authors define Greece as somehow *not* being part of Europe. When you draw that arbitrary line you can make statements like "Imperial Rome was not very European" etc. They are trying to make a modern political statement.

>>19025914
PCA tests don't have a bias. Either the samples cluster with Northern Europeans or they don't. In this case they very clearly don't, and a clear swaying from each era to the next is present which shows the ways in which Rome changed through each era of history. Not one era in Roman history is non Mediterranean, the only era that diverges slightly from being Mediterranean is the Imperial era and it diverges more toward the Arabic side.

>>19022617
This girl's face is horribly asymmetrical. You just like this one because it is more childlike, regardless of the dysgenic red flags.

>>19025942
>the Arabic side.

That isn't the correct terminology I think you are meaning to use, do you mean Near Eastern or Levantine? During Imperial Rome "Arabs" were trading incense and worshiping meteors in southern Arabia.

>PCA tests don't have a bias.

They don't but academics can have one. I am suspect of the authors of this study defining Greek, Cypriot, Maltese samples as "Middle Eastern" or somehow "non European". They tried to use this study to somehow make a political point about modern day Sub Saharan Africans or Afghans refugees in Italy.

As if there is a comparison, Rome did not go from "non white"/brown in Imperial time to pale and blonde European by the age of the Guelphs lol

Rome went from "southern European + near eastern affinity" in the Imperial age to "southern European + northern European affinity" by 1000 AD. There was not some great population replacement but a gradual clinal change.

>At this time there appears a "tail" toward the Near East, reflecting migrants to Rome from the Eastern Mediterranean. However, most of them cluster no farther than Cyprus, which seems to confirm that "Middle Eastern" migrants to Rome were of predominantly Greek ancestry.

>During the Imperial period (n = 48 individuals), the most prominent trend is an ancestry shift toward the eastern Mediterranean and with very few individuals of primarily western European ancestry (Fig. 3C). The distribution of Imperial Romans in PCA largely overlaps with modern Mediterranean and Near Eastern populations, such as Greek, Maltese, Cypriot, and Syrian (Figs. 2A and 3C).

If you read the supplementary material on that study the authors acknowledges elevating the "african" component in that study by 10x by choosing a poorer fitting source population for it than what the admixture software recommended. Additionally the "Iranian" that they equate to middle eastern is almost certainly actually a Caucasian component, and not in fact iranian.

>>19025994
>That isn't the correct terminology

Is that you Taleb? Do Levantines not speak Arabic languages?

>>19025994
>As if there is a comparison, Rome did not go from "non white"/brown in Imperial time to pale and blonde European by the age of the Guelphs lol

Nowhere does that PCA imply that. Even in the Medieval era the samples are still firmly Mediterranean. Even the pre Steppe Neolothic samples have a far bigger claim to Mediterranean than North West European and I say this as North West European myself. The science is conclusive on this. Accept reality.

>>19026015
The Imperial Age migrants to Rome were almost certainly majority Greek speakers.

>>19026032
Accept what? What point are you trying to make? The point I am trying to make is that the author's of this study are trying to use it to make political statements on modern migration patterns, look up how the data is presented on "pop-sci" websites.

>>19026068
>The point I am trying to make is that the author's of this study are trying to use it to make political statements

Not at all, that is a perception based on a pool of incorrect information you have compiled about society. PCA tests don't lie, the imperial age samples cluster closer to modern Arabic speaking samples from West Asia. This is shocking to exactly no one given the historical context of Rome... The only people who could ever even imagine this is some sort of biased attack on them are people who look like the man in this image.

>>19026097
You totally just gave yourself away, go back

>>19026097
>PCA tests don't lie, the imperial age samples cluster closer to modern Arabic speaking samples from West Asia.

That isn't what it shows lol. ALL the Roman eras cluster nearest to the "Southern Italian" sample, it is just a matter of how far they trend towards the Eastern Med or NW Europe.

Fuck off you troll.

>>19026114
They diverge toward Arabs was my point, not toward NW Europeans. They are still very much Mediterraneans.

>>19026097
Still not sure why anyone thinks PCA tests of random Roman plebs (who weren't cremated, meaning they probably weren't actual Romans) is meaningful at all. Come back to me when you have PCAs of Roman patricians and noble families. Oh, but wait, we won't, because they were all cremated.

>>19022593
shes half icelandic which ruins the whole goddamn marble princess thing FUCK

>>19026120
Which "Arabs"? Based on the sample chart you posted the Imperial samples cluster trended towards "Turkish" and "Jewish" plot points. The Arabic speaking populations are pretty further removed than that.

It is also worth remembering that during the Roman Imperial Age the Central Asian Turks were still in Central Asia so that "Turkish" plot point is going to be reflective of mainly Hellenic ancestry.

>>19022593
You must go back.

>>19026103
I bet you aren't even European anyway. Only Americans with 15 different ethnicities seriously believe that Rome and Greece were NW European. I can almost guarantee you are some kind of mixed breed rootless larper.

>>19026142
nobody said a thing about northern European sped, but once again you gave yourself away for the insecure nafri faggot you are

>>19026142
Not that anon but you are just trolling at this point.

Nobody in this this thread claimed the Romans were Blonde Nords riding down from Hyperborea, that is a Straw Man argument you built yourself.

The initial issue was the fact that the author's of the study tried to use to make modern political points about "refugees" arriving in Italy, as if that was somehow comparable to the gradual population shifts of the Roman Imperial centuries.

>>19022593
This whole team “mixed”?
And a lot of people in “Turkey” aren’t from the conquering Turkmen, they’re old fashioned Anatolians.

>>19026135
??

>>19026138
Like I said above they diverge toward Arabs not toward NW Europeans. This isn't surprising at all given the historical context of Romes relationship with these regions.

>>19026154
girl in ops image is half icelandic, not some greek marble statuette come to life

>>19026157
you are just trolling at this point i guess lol

Which Arabs? They trend towards "Turkish" and "Jewish" plot/data points. The Jordanians and other "Arabs" are a clearly further away.

>>19026153
You claimed definitively that the study had some kind of bias agenda against more Europeans. You're really just a deluded non white mutt who can't into objectivity. Unlike you I am actually European and my eyes work great!

>>19026162
Adjust your glasses chud.

>>19026158
Neat. Love me Icelandic falleg stelpa

>>19026177
* fallegar stelpur

>>19026158
Wat name?
>>19026154
Look at the Turkish women's team and tell me who do they look closer to. Germans or Turks?
Terroni, Greeks and exotic spaniards are not white. They do not represent Europe.

>>19026192
Who are you to say what is European, American?

>>19026192
They look like their ancestors. Anatolians of various tribes. Why should they look germanic?
I don’t give a fuck what “white” is

t. Pale as one gets without being albino

>>19026201
I am asking a simple question. Look at native Greeks and tell me who do they look closer to. NW Europeans or levants? Inb4 you pull out the Mediterranean card, typical Mediterraneans share clear phenotypical features with populations up north more than they do with beyond the Mediterranean. Do not show me genetic clusters, our civilization has always segregated people on physical likenesses; you can be 99% European but if you look like a Moor you simply will never be accepted among native Europeans as perfectly normal.

>>19026221
T H E Y
L O O K
E U R O P E A N

BECAUSE THEYRE FROM EUROPE

>>19026210
Forgot to remove your trip, Butterfly LARPer. That is how frenzied you are at all of this. Fucked up the facade, didnchu now?
Butterfly LARPer is a Moor /pol/ poster. Kekkkkkkkkkkkeeekkkkkkk

>>19026221
You aren't European. You're a low brow American with 15 micro ethnicities on your DNA results. Your opinions on Europe are worthless. Your subhuman rootless race will sink into the sea to be forgotten forever.

>>19026225
T H E Y
L O O K
C L O S E R
T O
L E V A N T S

>>19026230
No. I mean there’s pics out there of me to prove it.
Not a pol poster. Probably some troll.

>>19026233
>Doesn't answer question
>seethes
As if I needed proof that I was onto something