/lit/ - Literature

>>19018350
He was fully God, but also fully human. Is it strange for a human to weep at the death of his friend?

>>19018366
you cant be fully God while also being fully determinate

>>19018405
Why not?

>>19018405
Tell that to God

>>19018411
>>19018445
t. dogmatists

>>19018350
>Since you all seem to be Christian clerics nowadays
kek

Bump

>>19018350
Why can't God weep?

>>19018350
Imagine how many more things Jesus did that are not in the Bible/not considered canonical. A man does many things in his 33 years, He doesn't just power down outside of what is recorded. Imagine what things may now be considered sinful, and what things may be considered virtuous. Of course, it's all a forgery and a farce

>>19018350
Why God wouldn't wept?

>>19018350
Because he’s a pansy faggot.

>>19018350
Bump because it's a literature thread

>>19018350
Jesus is fully God and fully man. This is the beauty of the incarnation. He weeps honestly, as a man, yet is God.

Christ was fully man and fully divine. This is what makes His sacrifice so poignant. He was God in the place of a completely ordinary man. He felt the pain, the fear, the doubt that anyone in His place would have, but He still sacrificed for our sake
>>19018405
>you cant be fully God while also being fully determinate
Yet you give 0 reason as to why

Fear and hopelessness is a sign of little faith in God

>>19020870
>>19020860
Pretty much this, NT emphasises both the divinity of Jesus and his human nature.

>>19020870
How do you expect me to engage with dogmatists like you who base their belief that God can be determinate and graded by the incarnation solely on the faith that comes from the idea that He isn't determinate and is not graded? Submit to Allah and His messenger.

>>19021434
>noooo don't believe in Christian dogma believe in Islamic dogma!!1!11

>>19021565
yeah

>>19018405
>limiting God
What people don’t understand about omnipotence is it is literally above logic and all other constraints. God is all powerful. God is unlimited and limited. God is infinitely big and infinitely small. God can create a stone so big He cannot lift it, and He can lift it.

>>19021434
>>19021594
The issue with Islam is it limits God. If God cannot be incarnate on Earth, if God cannot have a Son, if God cannot empty Himself, how is He all powerful? What power does He have?
The great religious revolution that began with Moses and continues on through all the Abrahamic religions is that God is deeply invested in humanity. He is one and He is all-powerful, yes, but He also values humanity and desires us to be with Him. This is the teaching of all the prophets in the Bible, this is the teaching of Muhammad, of Joseph Smith, of Bahá’u’lláh, of Mary Baker Eddy, of Ellen G. White. This is the foundation of all Abrahamic religions: God is one, and He is all powerful, and He is deeply invested in humanity
The reason why Christianity is the ultimate Abrahamic religion is it takes this attribute of God farther than Judaism or Islam. Christianity says God is so in love with humanity that He actually came to Earth and walked the streets, searching for us personally, one soul at a time

>>19021738
Saying something cannot be determined is not logical. Saying God is outside the universe is the same as saying He doesn’t exist according to modern phenomenologists. This is exactly why God cannot be determined.

>>19021795
The incarnation is wrong because the subject-object dichotomy of phenomenal consciousness is exactly that which we need to rise above. The genesis of man was also the genesis of the symbolique (which is why Allah taught Adam the names of all things, alayhis salam). The symbolic can only symbolize the aspect of God in extended forms and not the direct internal essence of God. Wittgenstein said language was internal and thus cannot be fully understood by outsiders. The same is true of God. Islam destroys all symbols because it says that the universe is singularly symbolic of God’s aspect, which thereby de-symbolizes the world because its concepts collapse into a totality that has its definition in God’s aspect. Islam is submission to this aspect in hopes that one may return to the essence of God and receive the Vision of His Reality in Heaven.

>>19021954
That is a lot of meaningless word vomit
Answer this simple question: does God have the power to become man or not

>>19021795
>>19021954
I feel like I’m in Umayyad Spain listening to an itinerant priest talk to a devout poet. inb4 basedface it’s a genuinely nice conversation

>>19022048
Again you are depending on the fact that God is indeterminate to make these types of arguments. So what could I possibly do? You have burrowed into the hole of God’s indeterminacy to argue that God is so indeterminate He can become determinate. Neither yes nor no would be a logical response to this question because God not becoming man has nothing to do with logic and God becoming man has nothing to do with logic either. Because Islam destroys the symbolic, I am not concerned with hypotheticals but only the actual. Did God become man? is the only question I really care for.

>>19018534
Yes? Obviously lmao. It's dogma or the devil.

>>19022120
I think your being to proud in your belief to be able to answer questions and dualities of faith only God Allah can answer.

The truth is you don't not know if God can be man, as you shouldn't because you don't care about the symbolic.

If you truly were in defense of Allah then you should be preaching of salvation to the anons on this board instead of arguing for your own vanity.

>it's a abrehamites discuss power levels thread

>>19022703
The same thing

>>19021795
God can do all things, according to yoy, but He obviously does not choose to do all things; therefore, His choice not to incarnate does not mean He is unable to do so.

He does not at all value humanity, nor does He desire for "humans" to be with Him, otherwise He would plan salvation for all. Instead, the path is narrow, cut off your hand or penis to fit in the single-file line to Heaven. And even then, no guarantees. He is deeply invested in denaturing humanity, you mean, and in making us worship a God our ancestors did not know, and in enforcing pharisaical practices the elect do not even live up to.

>>19023184
Attempting to argue for God/Allah is not a proper way to argue YOUR point.

>>19023111
>If you truly were in defense of Allah then you should be preaching salvation to the anons on this board instead of arguing for your own vanity.
I am preaching salvation, but you cannot gain salvation until you let go of the symbols that are taking place of the reality or quiddity of the aspect of God that makes up your verse. Allah says in the Qur'an : "And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded." what did they fill up in place of the portion that they forgot? symbols. the symbol of the incarnation. the symbol of the crucifixion. the symbol of the resurrection. the symbol of the eucharist. and on and on it goes because human beings desire the symbolic more than they desire reality. the reality is, Jesus Christ was a human being. he was the messiah, a sign sent down to warn the jews of the signs they had forgotten, and of the symbolic totality of creation; that everything within it submits to God. every little thing.

>>19021001
>>19018366
That means he also sinned like a man, and died like a man?

>>19018350
He was sad. Fuck do you do when you're sad?

>>19024018
There was nothing to be sad about. He knew Lazarus was gonna get revived, he is God after all (God is omniscient, remember?)

>>19023933

>the historicity of Islam's claims about Christ.

genuine question is there an argument that backs up what the quran says about Christ that doesnt presuppose the quran as the word of God. there were no first person accounts and it parallels gnostic text such as the gospel of Thomas(making birds from clay and speaking in the crib)

>>19023933
You preach The Quran and acknowledge Jesus is the messiah?

>>19024178
The gospels cannot be proven without a shadow of a doubt to be from the authors the church claims they are from because they were published anonymously. the fact that you put your faith on this historical idea rather than on the quiddity of your religion itself (which is just one big symbol for itself rather than for the world as it is, which is in a state of submission to God or in a state of 'islam') shows that the symbol cannot stand on its own, which shows thats all it really is in reality.
>no first person accounts
our weak hadith are more reliable than your entire scripture because we actually know without a shadow of a doubt who they are from despite their weakness in hadith transmission. the fact that we have a science where we distinguish good narrators from bad ones shows that your concept of preservation of prophetic knowledge is backward in that there is no such concept found in the textual history of the church.

>>19018350
>Since you all seem to be Christian clerics nowadays
No, Jesus said we are not to be called Rabbi, Teacher, Instructor, or Father, for He is the only of those things for us. We are merely sinners doing our best to understand God and to discuss/share our findings with others along the Way, for mutual edification between brothers and submitted sisters.

>>19018350
>Why does Jesus weep
Two passages in the Gospels and one in the Epistles (Hebrews 5:7) teach that Jesus wept. In the Gospels Jesus wept as He looked on man’s misery, and both instances demonstrate his (loving) human nature, His compassion for people, and the life He offers to those who believe. When Jesus wept, He showed all these things.

John 11:1–45 concerns the death and resurrection of Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha and a friend of our Lord. Jesus wept (John 11:35) when He gathered with the sisters and others mourning Lazarus’s death. Jesus did not weep over the death itself since He knew Lazarus would soon be raised and ultimately spend eternity with Him in heaven. Yet He could not help but weep when confronted with the wailing and sobbing of Mary, Martha, and the other mourners (John 11:33). The original language indicates that our Lord wept “silent tears” or tears of compassion for His friends (Romans 12:15).

If Jesus had been present when Lazarus was dying, His compassion would have caused Him to heal His friend (John 11:14–15). But preventing a death might be considered by some to be a chance circumstance or just a “minor” miracle, and this was not a time for any doubt. So Lazarus spent four days in death’s grave before Jesus publicly called him back to life. The Father wanted these witnesses to know that Jesus was the Son of God, that Jesus was sent by God, and that Jesus and the Father had the same will in everything (John 11:4, 40–42). Only the one true God could have performed such a miracle, and through this miracle the Father and the Son were glorified, and many believed (John 11:4, 45).

In Luke 19:41–44 the Lord is taking His last trip to Jerusalem shortly before He was crucified at the insistence of His own people, the people He came to save. Earlier, the Lord had said, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it” (Luke 13:34). As Jesus approached Jerusalem and thought of all those lost souls, “He saw the city and wept over it” (Luke 19:41). Here, wept is the same word used to describe the weeping of Mary and the others in John 11:33, so we know that Jesus cried aloud in anguish over the future of the city. That future was less than 40 years distant; in AD 70 more than 1,000,000 residents of Jerusalem died in one of the most gruesome sieges in recorded history.

Jesus wept differently in these two instances because the eternal outcomes were entirely different. Martha, Mary, and Lazarus had eternal life because they believed in the Jesus Christ, but most in Jerusalem did not believe and therefore did not have life. The same is true today: “Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies’” (John 11:25).

>>19023937
Working with what Bible gives us, God took on our sinful flesh, but Himself remained sinless.

>>19024315
Jesus is called Messiah (Masih) in Islam
Messiah means anointed, not savior or whatever

>>19021954
>Islam is submission to this aspect in hopes that one may return to the essence of God and receive the Vision of His Reality in Heaven.
No, it’s not, Islam has a view of heaven being gardens filled with virgins and rivers of wine, it is not a singularity of non-dualism where we are absorbed into a Unitarian God and His consciousness, with all symbols and ‘hairs’ of God being sheared off. The subject-object dichotomy of consciousness is only due to God contracting Himself in order to create within Himself, forming a vacuum in which the divine light can peer through and manifest anything God wills. The fullness of God, through which God generates Himself as Himself, entered this vacuum within Himself in order to redeem creation to Himself, in Himself, and through Himself; this is not illogical, it’s the exact opposite of shearing the symbolism in God by saying that there is no analogical properties we can hang on to, but rather, an actual metaphysical manifestation of God that is connected with all levels of God, with no distinction in essence, glory, and deity, with only distinction in the relation between the metaphysical and physical (i.e., the manifestation shares nature with the things he manifests within the vacuum within Himself), and the other relations within God.

The Incarnation is necessary in order to avoid the problem of God either being absolutely transcendental, to the point that God transcends even His own existence, or God being manifesting to such a point that He is part of creation fully and absolutely. The only solution is a hypostatic union, where God is transcendent in one nature, beyond creation’s existence in one manner, and in another, one with creation, within the vacuum of Himself, as another nature connected to His person.

God’s agent, who is inside God, who is God’s reason, power, agency, and aseity, manifested in order to procure a new creation in which He is the first fruit, rising from the dead to reunite the world to His Father in their Spirit.

>>19024377
>because they were published anonymously
Just like the Qur’an, ironically enough.

The idea of the ‘weak Hadith being more reliable than the New Testament’ is a meme and is not historically accurate.

>>19024718
Bless you

A possible reason for Jesus’s tears was that he knew that raising Lazarus would actually cause the religious leaders to finally take action to put him to death (John 11:45–53). In this account, most of us probably marvel at Jesus’s incredible trust that his Father would answer him. We have such little faith. If Jesus had any struggle that day, it would not have been whether his Father would answer, but what would result when his Father answered. Calling Lazarus out of the tomb would have taken a different kind of resolve for Jesus than we might have imagined. Giving Lazarus life was sealing Jesus’s own death.

>>19020870
>Christ felt doubt
Doubt.

>>19023933
>the symbol of the incarnation. the symbol of the crucifixion. the symbol of the resurrection. the symbol of the eucharist

>>19025944
>If Jesus had any struggle that day
Why do Protestants think that Christ ever struggled with faith or that it was even a possibility for Him?

>>19021852
The phenomenologists don't exist.

>>19024779
Yes, because anointed refers to the anointing of oil that was done to Jewish kings.
So he is the King they were waiting for to save them.

>>19026254
Protestant here, I don't think he struggled with faith. It would be impossible as he is God.
I've seen Muslims argue that he did based on Mark 27:46, but if you have any knowledge of the text you would know that he is quoting psalm 22.

Bump

>>19026238
Name one symbol in Islam. You can’t. Islam is the destroyer of the symbolic.

>>19027451
“If you wish to see the glory of God, contemplate a
red rose.” So, too, does an exalted Muslim proverb:
“Allah jamil yhibu al-jamal”—“God is beautiful,
and He loves beauty.” Such natural phenomena as
light, water, plants, animals, and heavenly bodies
are popular symbols in Islamic imagery.

>>19021738
But he is constrained?

God cannot not Love for example, for He is Love according to the Bible. He also cannot lie or sin.