/lit/ - Literature

>>19011957
Read Debt the first 5000 years by Graeber next, it is based.

Both books are fundamentally flawed but I'm glad you're both into them. You've sublimated the internal problems that you refuse to deal with into a personal crusade against an imagine external enemy. You will fail in life as you go down this route, which makes me laugh, and makes me happy. You should keep going and go further. We need a communist revolution, globally, and we need it now

>>19011957
>fair
fairness is a bourgeois concept, read critique of the gotha program

Op's bait thread failed and now hes replying to himself to bump. Sad!

>>19012030
Tpbp

>>19012034
Compassions and selflessness are the highest virtues. Read Schopenhauer. And capitalist society is spiritually bankrupt because everybody is competing for material goods, you need to to survive under capitalism.

>>19012034
there are no "bourgeois" and "non-bourgeois" concepts, genius. Both the proletariat and the bourgeois, and every other class of person that might exist, are participants in the fetish of capital. You guys are all still stuck in moralism. You're at least 150 years behind in philosophical sophistication. Read Kant, read Hegel, read Feuerbach. The point is not just two teams fighting each other, it's about how there are real abstractions, ideas that are practiced but are still just ideas, that are illogical, irrational, and ascribed magical powers that are only merely imagined. That is what Marx's critique of capitalism is about, who it's a delirious hallucination of something that isn't really there. That hallucination IS capital, the idea of a self-valorizing value, something that simply inherent to its existence makes itself more valuable, without any outside interference, intervention, or.. anything. The idea of capital violates cause and effect itself, that something could self-cause. The only thing that is self-caused is The Universe or God.

No capital = no capitalism. That is Marx's most fundamental critique, not some stupid moralism. Come on guys.

>>19011957
Just have capital, prole freak.

>>19011957
>In the descent into Nibelheim, Wagner gives us an image of industrial capitalism that says more than a thousand pages of Karl Marx.

>>19012140
That's correct, because Marx's Capital is not about "industrial capitalism." - it is not about just the conditions of the working poor, and the tragic fates that they suffer. Of course the art of an opera would be much better at depicting life than a work of transcendental critique. Marx's capital is about the necessary conditions for the possibility for the existence of capitalism. The minimum number of statements that must be true for there to be capitalism, his work is closer to a logic and rationalist demonstrative argument than an Opera, though it has some Operatic qualities because it is also depicting something that is from life.

reminder that marx never explicitly called capitalism evil and his entire philosophy is based on the premise that it's a necessary system to advance in the next stage of material development

>>19011957
>"be more fair and compassionate"
lmfao OP good one

>>19011957
>Paleolithic societies practiced primitive communism.
Proven false by basic archaeology, try again.

>I read something and I believed it!

>>19011957
1/10 bait

>>19012218
Personal property =/= private property you fucking retard

Please explain how Hunter gatherers were capitalist when there wasn’t even any fucking capital

>>19012242
>tfw you lend someone your spear you worked to make if they will give you some of the meat they hunt with it
Oh no I made a capitalism

>>19012242
grug have nice club and most she-women
me am hope make nice club too but grug no let, gruggers take best wood places and no let zug have good stick

>>19012248
> sharing is capitalism

Serious question do you have autism

>>19012249
A club is personal property

>>19012242
You do realize there are systems of economic organization other than capitalism and communism, right? I mean, Marx even talks about them in his works, which you claim to have read.

>>19012255
>>19012251
>if I just keep playing my word games long enough that will shield me from reality, I can never be wrong if I just keep making up specious bullshit to redefine everything!
A true communist I see.

>>19012251
That's not sharing, it's an exchange: I make a spear, the spear is capital, I let someone use the spear if they agree to give it back and let me have some of what they get from using it: that's what you call exploitation of labor, which is actually just basic agreements among people in division of labor for both their benefit.

>>19012255
grug club nose-tribe to death
grug take nose-tribe things
grug have most stuff in all tribe
grug favorite stuff grug club still
grug club take world

you fucking idiots arguing about made up caveman shit. God damn you are stupid. They hadn't even invented money. How the fuck is there going to be capitalism without money? How are you going to measure value without money? How the fuck are you going to post self-valorizing value without something to fucking measure it with.

You guys are fucking illiterate children.

>>19012266
Because we are still cavemen smashing each other, it's just a bit more complicated now.

>>19012266
Yeah I bet the dominant landowners after the agricultural revolution were all technically equal because they were all in a barter system with no-one minting coins

retard

>>19012271
No dude, everyone was equal until suddenly the capitalist-big-bang happened, then the world was unequal and that's why we need to reform it.

>>19012271
>>19012276
Are you guys playing dumb on purpose? Before the agricultural revolution there wasn’t any private property. That is the definition of communism.

>>19011957
>evil
It didn’t click mate. Evil has nothing to do with surplus values reproduction of expanded solidarity.

>>19012284
You can have all the ahistorical definitions you want, it doesn't change a thing.

>>19012284
You realize that weapons and women were property for hunter gatherers?

>>19012284
>Before the agricultural revolution there wasn’t any private property
>This is what communists actually believe
people DIED over this shit

>>19012294
>You realize that weapons and women were property for hunter gatherers?
Source?

>>19012295
>people DIED over this shit
Yes but you see, this doesn't completely upend or contradict my convoluted worldview because hahah! I had the foresight to make a distinction on page 2, 476 that defines such a thing as personal property as opposed to private property. The difference is uhhh well you know you can't uhhh well it wasn't the same, ok? Anyway you'll note I was referring to private property while YOU haha! Foolishly were referring to personal. They're not the same.

>>19012305
You can look at DNA as one very strong example. Most females in human history did reproduce, most men did not. The difference in male vs female ancestry is absolutely staggering, the conclusion of which is inescapable.

>>19012320
Source?

>>19012305
Source is you getting beat up in middle school while we fucked the girls you liked

>>19012173
Das Rheingold doesn't just say 'more than a thousand pages of Karl Marx' as an emotional depiction of industrial life, it's also a heavily theoretical work, which is what Scruton is talking about.

>>19012327
He doesn’t have one. He’s sounds like a nazi chudcel.

>>19012327
https://psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success
suck it

>>19012271
that's fucking feudalism or despotism, dumbass. The peasants, slaves, serfs, whatever work the land because they are morally obligated to by some mythical or religious structure. The peasants don't get paid, and they don't buy shit either. They live as some sort of community with a hierarchy that is royal, noble, priestly, maybe even heroic. Odin is a wise emperor, not a fucking businessman.

>>19012365
>The peasants don't get paid
They absolutely are compensated with safety, food, and shelter. Else they wouldn't fucking do it, moron. Odin isn't real, everything is a system of exchange tending towards equilibrium. Fucking algae compete.

>>19012345
That doesn’t prove that women were property, it reality it shows that women are hypergamous by nature. The idea is called Batemans principle in evolutionary biology. Females of any species have much more parental investment than males do, so the females have to be more sexually selective.

We are seeing this okay out in real life today. On online dating apps the top 5% of men are getting all the women.

>>19012372
>We are seeing this okay out in real life today. On online dating apps the top 5% of men are getting all the women.
lmao how fucking dumb do you have to be to think cavemen had condoms or the pill.
>>That doesn’t prove that women were property, it reality it shows that women are hypergamous by nature.
No it doesn't you moron, else the male distribution would be much higher. It's not about sex, it's about pregnancy. And the fact is that a minority of men had the majority of children, this makes it unquestionable that powerful minorities had the most resources, that includes women, food, and weaponry.

>>19012409
>And the fact is that a minority of men had the majority of children, this makes it unquestionable that powerful minorities had the most resources, that includes women, food, and weaponry.
Again, source? That women were considered property? Can you give me a source for that part specifically? If you don’t give me a source I will report and hide your posts.

>>19012371
These peasants are told, that they do not own the land they work, because the gods decreed it. If the gods aren't real, then how are they being "compensated" food, safety, and shelter? They make their own food, they grow it on the land. They make their own shelter, they build their own houses. And safety? It is the pharaoh's men who are violent. It is the pharaoh's men who hand down the punishments of the law, and collect the grain from the peasants. How are they being compensated food they made, shelter they built, and safety that isn't safe?

The land being the property of the king depends on the existence of the gods. In fact, the pharaoh and his priests say it is the god's land, but only that they do what the gods say! If the gods are not real, how could it be the pharaoh's to compensate to the peasants?

>>19012082
>there are no "bourgeois" and "non-bourgeois" concepts
um yes there are. marx says in the very text i cited that equal right is a "bourgeois defect"

>>19012218
uh no actually "basic archeology" vindicates marx

>>19012454
oops forgot the image

>>19012409
>And the fact is that a minority of men had the majority of children, this makes it unquestionable that powerful minorities had the most resources, that includes women, food, and weaponry.
Anything is questionable to an ideologically possessed retard, well, except for their ideology.

>>19011957
OP, you seriously actually need to be 18 to post on this site.

>>19012372
>That doesn’t prove that women were property, it reality it shows that women are hypergamous by nature.
Holy shit, you are a genuine illiterate retard. 17 women reproduce for every 1 man. That means women are hypergamies? No, retard, it means men are! Fucking marxist idiots can't even into basic mathematical relations.

>>19011957
Capitalism isn't a system. It's the absence of a system.

Absolutely. Fucking. Moronic

YWNBAW

>>19012124
ironic you posting a gif of Don, a character who truly lived and represented the most archetypal capitalist lifestyle, was horribly miserable, depressed and confused because of this his upbringing and lifestyle within the capitalist society which only got worse and worse as the show went on

>>19012251
>Capitalism is 'capitalism as defined by communists'.

You may just call it capitalistic proprietary laborism.

>>19011957
> Paleolithic societies practiced primitive communism.
No they didn't, this is an uninformed anachronistic notion thought up by Marx to justify his ideology.

>>19011957
>evolve as a species to be more fair and compassionate
I agree, we should all accept Christ as our Lord, Savior and The Way

>>19012561
Again, capitalism isn't 'being rich'. Capitalism is a free market system in which individuals can use their resources to produce more resources. It relies on property rights. It is not 'getting rich'. That's like saying the full embodiment of eating meat is stomach cancer. You realize Stalin was EXORBITANTLY wealthy beyond even what most people today would experience.

>>19011957
Saying you read Marx and your conclusion is that capitalism is "evil" means you didn't actually pay attention to anything he wrote.

Marx doesn't say capitalism is evil, in fact, he says several times that capitalism is the most dynamic and powerful economic system ever invented by man, but that this economic system relies on contradictions that require massive amounts of ideological control, state intervention and repression to not collapse.

The fundamental idea of Marxism is that workers' surplus value is exploited by the capitalist, not that anyone is evil lol, it's just that workers have a self-interest in abolishing a system that exploits their labor.

>>19012251
What is "Trade"

>>19012567
I thought christianity was muh based warrior crusader religion?

>>19012266
what the fuck do you think money is, you fucking retard?

>>19012454
No it doesn't, there are massive highways and battle sites that have been discovered from long before "we" (Marxists and Darwinians) thought humans had any degree of civilization.

>>19012604
I can assure you, it is not. Merely a massive romanticization of certain medieval christian movements by LARPers, particularly younger people.

>>19011957
>Capitalism is the most evil system ever created.
you clearly haven't read Marx. capitalism is not a "created" "system", and saying that something is "evil" is never a serious accusation, because it's ideological (moral in this case), not scientific.
> It is a total dictatorship of the rich.
Marx talks about concrete classes such as the bourgeoisie and not about some vague "rich" for a good reason
>>but everyone has an equal chance to succeed with capitalism
>No.
the problem is not in the answer to this being negative, but with the statement itself. an "equal chance to succeed" presupposes individual competition. wanting to provide everyone with a "truly equal chance to succeed" is petty-bourgeois socialism, a reaction to the advantages the bourgeois have as individuals over the aspiring bourgeois of the middle classes.
>humans should be able to rise above our basic instincts to evolve as a species
people have risen above their "basic instincts" tens of thousands of years ago. by positing communism as an evolution beyond basic instincts for the first time, you're basically affirming the fetishistic notion of capitalism being in accordance to some "nautral" state of human beings
>to be more fair and compassionate
communism is as much about egoism as it is about fairness. considering it in moral and abstract-psychological terms is a petty bourgeois trap.

>>19012196
reminder that Marx has no philosophy and communism isn't a "system"

>>19012248
was that actually how hunter-gatherer societies worked or did you just project current society onto prehistory Flintstones style? you don't need to answer

>>19012606
money is a universal equivalent that functions as measure of value, means of circulation, means of hoarding and means of payment

>>19012612
yes, primitive communist societies built cities and fought one another. so what?

>>19012260
You can't trade in-tribe dipshit.

>>19012606
general equivalence. It's the thing which makes all things quantifiably comparable. There is no such thing as prices without money. Without money, no market, no no credit, no commodities to be sold, no way to accumulate capital, no capital, no capitalism.

Unless you're going to tell me that money existed before human society, or, before human beings at all, which is absurd, capitalism is not trans-historical or universal.

>>19012409
>>19012537
If you don't see a problem with that then you are genuinely an actual cuckold.

>>19011957
The facts are:

Asset manager firms like Blackrock (Rochefellers rebranded) now manage over $50 trillion dollars. That is basically the entire western economy.

We are now 100% serfs. Ideology does not matter in this situation. Critiques of "capitalism" are basically irrelevant because it's just open tyranny

What is it called when the corporations in a "capitalist" society also controls the government through their financial influences?

>>19012721
It's the other way around dumbass, the one's asking for redistribution are the ones getting cucked, the one's concentrating the women and wealth are the ones doing the cucking. Which is pretty reasonable since physical strength and attractiveness are directly correlated with conservatism.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/weak-men-more-likely-to-be-socialists-study-claims-rsnc3l8mk
etc

>>19012748
Judaism

>>19012749
So if I go "That faggot is hoarding women to the detriment of everyone else, let's kill him!" I am the cuck?
Explain.

>>19012735
this the the natural development and consequence of capitalism
>>19012748
that's called capitalism

>>19012755
No, it's called anarchy.

>>19012689
>Marx has no philosophy

Historical materialism bro

>>19012754
Yes, herd behavior is for cattle not lions. Of course in reality you'd say this while grumbling about your pathetic work for scraps afforded you by the 'hoarder'. Cattle aren't exactly known for their bravery or ability, after all.

>>19012030
Faggot

>>19012755
>It's capitalism
This would happen under any system. The psychopaths with the resources rule, no matter what

>Marx says feudalism is objectively worse than capitalism
>OP somehow comes away with Capitalism being the worst system
Shit bait or you’re just another gommie larper

>>19012735
that's just centralization of capital. workers are "serfs" to capital no matter if its centralized or not. but they're not literal serfs because the subservience is not based on direct personal dependence to the feudal lord but on dependence on capital, where the particular owners of capital function only as its personalizations

>>19012748
capitalism perfecting the subjugation of the state to its own purposes is just a regular development of capitalism

>>19012764
the materialist conception of history deals with concrete history, whereas philosophy deals with abstractions. Marx:
>Where speculation ends — in real life — there real, positive science begins: the representation of the practical activity, of the practical process of development of men. Empty talk about consciousness ceases, and real knowledge has to take its place. When reality is depicted, philosophy as an independent branch of knowledge loses its medium of existence.

>>19012784
>Yes, herd behavior is for cattle not lions.
Tell this to the Jews you retarded mutt. Only an american could believe drivel like this.

>>19012805
*capital perfecting

>>19012784
Do you actually believe that you would have the same comfort of life if you were left alone in Alaska with no human contact or tools? There is no "individualism". You're always part of a herd.

>>19012266
>bartering requires no money, money just makes it easier
>bartering is an essential part of trade which is also essential to capitalism
commies are braindead, people have always owned things. When they willingly trade their property for some other property this is nowhere near communism

>>19012305
you think hunter-gatherers didn't own their women and women just had sex with anyone they wanted to or something? holy kek

>>19012827
who are you quoting? capitalism is necessarily based on trade that uses money. its development presupposed a money economy and it could properly function based on mere barter.

of course people always "owned" things, for a sufficiently broad understanding of ownership. the point is that this ownership was often community-wide/tribal. and that individual ownership developed through breakdown of this tribal ownership. primitive forms of common land ownership persisted in some places even into the XIX century.

>>19012835
nobody did what they personally wanted to do in a tribe. I'd even say that positing some concrete individual desires completely separate from the life and the needs of the tribe as a whole is an illegitimate projection of liberal individualism back onto history, i.e. yet another bourgeois fetish

>>19012827
who are you quoting? capitalism is necessarily based on trade that uses money. its development presupposed a money economy and it wouldn't be able to properly function based on mere barter.

and of course people have always "owned" things for a sufficiently broad understanding of ownership. the point is that this ownership was often community-wide/tribal. and that individual ownership developed through breakdown of this tribal ownership. primitive forms of common land ownership persisted in some places even into the XIX century.

>>19012835
nobody did what they personally wanted to do in a tribe. I'd even say that positing some concrete individual desires completely separate from the life and the needs of the tribe as a whole is an illegitimate projection of liberal individualism back onto history, i.e. yet another bourgeois fetish

>>19012612
there are barely any such cites that predate the neolithic, read less pinker
>>19012689
neets are not petty bourgeois and are based communists

>>19012865
>cites
*sites

>>19012856
>I'd even say that positing some concrete individual desires completely separate from the life and the needs of the tribe as a whole is an illegitimate projection of liberal individualism back onto history, i.e. yet another bourgeois fetish
But they sure as shit didn't let themselves get cucked by sharing wives.

>>19012805
>the materialist conception of history deals with concrete history, whereas philosophy deals with abstractions.

Err it gets more complicated when 'concreteness' is an abstraction in the realm of philosophy. I don't really care if Marx thinks he is not doing philosophy when the way he talks about the cessation of philosophy is steeped in metaphysical language that simply replaces the primacy of the ideal with the material

>>19012865
>there are barely any such cites that predate the neolithic, read less pinker
The further back you go in time the harder is to find evidence, obviously, because shit degrades, or is destroyed and rebuilt by future people. Are you retarded? I haven't eve nread Pinker, this is just basic archaeological fact.

>>19012604
> But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. Matthew 5:39-40
Christianity is a non-violent religion (Jesus was nonviolent and is the perfect example of a Christian). The state corrupted it. Sure there are examples where violence may be permissable, but this just shows and endlessly contradicting the bible is and how it's impossible to 'get it right' hence all the schizsms. Honestly the protestant leftist-liberals probably got christianity right; don't judge others, let anyone into our country and take our resources, let everyone do what they want, their sins are forgiven. Trannies are good and natural, cause God let man become capable of sex operation, and same for homos cause they have dicks and assholes. Oh and yes abortions are also natural then

Nietzsche was right all along about it being a cucked socialist religion.

>>19012689
>yes, primitive communist societies built cities and fought one another.
There is no actual evidence that they were primitive or communist. Those two "facts" are assumed by Marxist historians, with no factual basis.

>>19012801
Feudalism is objectively the best (see Spengler)

>>19012895
{{cn}}

>>19012895
It's simply logical.
If you and your tribe set up camp do you suddenly start trading instead of sharing and kicking the less fortunate to the curb to drink from the puddles and eat bugs?

>>19012827
Barter economies do not, nor have they ever existed. Nor is barter "essential" to trade. Go in to a mcdonalds, try to barter for the price of a junior chicken. They'll tell you to leave. Yet, you can still trade your money for one. You are a dumb dumb that lives in fantasy land.

>>19012956
This sounds untrue, but is probably true. tell us more anon. Give us books.

I bet 0 out of all commies in this thread using bourgeoisie as an insult are actually working class.

How dumb do you have to be to believe the myth of the barter economy. Imagine how fucking impossible that system would be. You try to trade something to your neighbor and if they don't want what you just happen to have on hand, you're completely hooped, even if what you have is valuable. You think some Mesopotamian peasant form 3000 years ago is going to really accept some perishable good that he otherwise doesnt want to use or need, in exchange for something that he has (which probably means that he wants to use it or needs it)? Ridiculous.

Peasant economies were more like favours and gifts. It's a much more efficient way of doing things. If you want some personal property of your neighbor's, you ask them nicely for it. They give it to you, and you are obligated to then give them whatever they want at some point in the future. This obligation is regulated by your own social reputation in this village, you are motivated to keep it clean so that you can continue to get things you want from people when you need to.

This is not a equivalent exchange, therefore it is not capitalist. Why is it not an equivalent exchange? Equivalent exchange is only possible with the existence of money, it is simply toThe favour or gift economy operate by a far more rough equivalency. The neighbor who is next in line to receive a gift or favour can dictate what they want, sometimes to the surprise of the giver. And they can have a dispute over it. But there is no dispute in equivalent exchange, the price is the price is the law.

>>19012964
Marshal Sahlins' "Stone Age Economics" - actual anthropological field studies of human societies that don't have money, such as Australian bush men very early on in the colonial days of the 19th century. There are other chapters in the book, and Sahlins makes it clear that anthropologists have never found a "barter economy" of people spot-trading things that aren't money. Especially nothing like a market or investment or anything remotely capitalist without money.

>>19012989
You should try looking at the real world rather than always covering yourself in americanisms.
I'm Eastern Euro, work in a slaughterhouse.

>>19011957
Universalists metaethics are fucking retarded lmao
Kys untermensch (Nietzschean sense).

>>19011957
>equal chance to succeed
>be more fair and compassionate
What if I dont want any of these things?

>>19013007
Then you're not functioning in the family-tribe-community and are a parasite.
Would you be ok with your son refusing to help you mow the lawn, but demanding an xbox (the inferior console)?

>>19013005
>Kys untermensch (Nietzschean sense).
illiterate. Nietzsche doesn't say "untermensch" once. There is the overman, and there is just man. Read Zarathustra.

>>19012995
I don't care you subhuman slav or slav-adjacent mutt. Men have always been slave to an idea, which now just so happens to be the big $.

>>19013015
From the perspective of a übermensch, the übermensch is the regular "man", and what you call "man" is the untermensch.

>>19013020
Why start a survey and then reject the answers when they don't fit your narrative you actual retard?
It looks like you're trying to create a dishonest narrative where capitalism is the only correct system.

>>19012873
>Err it gets more complicated when 'concreteness' is an abstraction in the realm of philosophy.
except there are actual concrete things that are something separate from "concreteness" considered in itself as an abstraction. I'm not saying that studying concreteness as an abstraction is not philosophy. I'm saying that studying the particular concrete things is not philosophy.
>I don't really care if Marx thinks he is not doing philosophy
I didn't quote Marx in order to show what he thought he was doing (which you're right to consider irrelevant to the question of what he was actually doing). I quoted him in order to provide a concise explanation of why he was actually not doing philosophy.
>the way he talks about the cessation of philosophy is steeped in metaphysical language
or maybe you're so steeped in philosophy that you see metaphysics everywhere
>that simply replaces the primacy of the ideal with the material
this is too vague to say anything, because it can refer to both an abstract negation of idealism, which would indeed be philosophical, and also to a different thing -- what Marx did -- namely to pointing out that in order to understand human society one must begin not with philosophical abstractions but with a concrete study of human history. the latter, compared with the former, is not a negation that remains with the realm of philosophy, but a negation that leaves it behind.

>>19012895
>There is no actual evidence that they were primitive or communist.
"primitive communism" is a singular term, so I don't know what you think you're doing separating the two terms like that. as for evidence, there's simply none showing that all societies have always had classes and private property. in fact, it's patently obvious that those are things that have to gradually develop within a tribal unity that exists as a single organism and saying otherwise is incomprehensible.

>>19012989
who used "bourgeois" as an insult in this thread?

>>19012990
you're correct if what you want to say is that in the presence of regular barter a universal equivalent will quickly develop, but your post reads as if you were implying that there was never barter between different groups of people in ancient Mesopotamia, which is just ridiculous. money can't come about in any different way.

>>19013066
>barter between different groups of people in ancient Mesopotamia
Keyword 「Groups」

>>19012140
what a load of shit lmao

>>19013044
>Why start a survey and then reject the answers when they don't fit your narrative you actual retard?
This is 4chan retard, anonimity is a fundamental principle of this site. No way to confirm the result of such a survey either.
>It looks like you're trying to create a dishonest narrative where capitalism is the only correct system.
It's not about "correctness", it's about the stupidity of people who think they can free themselves from slavery to a particular idea. A system is not changed when its main symbol is turned inside down, it's when the symbol itself changes, into one with arguably superior authority. "Communism" is part of capitalism, it will never be able to truly trascend it because at its core is alienation, which is not rejection of the symbol, but rather an obsessive fear, which necessarily translates into respect. The system which will succeed capitalism, if there is one, is not going to be communism, but rather the result of the symbol going on overdrive exactly due to the faux opposition between capitalism and communism and thehn losing authority, thus giving another symbol a chance at control through a gradualistic trasformation. Put in very rough and not very accurate Hegelian terms, you're not the synthesis, you're the nature.

>>19013066
>who used "bourgeois" as an insult in this thread?
Most definitely used it in a negative way, often to say it has no real meaning or is simply an idealization.
E.g: >>19012034

>>19011957
>Paleolithic societies practiced primitive communism
This is straight up wrong lol, Rousseau and those early Jewish anthropologists have long been disproved

Hierarchy is necessary to build society. Capitalistic hierarchy is more meritocratic than birthright and caste hierarchy. If you can managed nepotism and corruption, the system of capitalism rewards a society where one gets rewarded based on merits, which I find to be a good thing

>>19011957
>Paleolithic societies practiced primitive communism
Your knowledge of anthropology is more outdated than if you were following de Gobineau. He was sort of 20 years behind in 1854, you are somewhere in 1780's

>>19013101
Post proof.
It simply doesn't make sense to barter with, create debt and enslave your own family/ tribe.
Unless you're a degenerate that is.

>>19013066
>there was never barter between different groups of people in ancient Mesopotamia, which is just ridiculous. money can't come about in any different way.
incorrect. The invention of money is a technology to make militaries more effective. A military is a collection of fighting men that must move about in the territory to accomplish the military tasks of the king. Whether it be guarding borders, enforcing tax collection, invading new lands, or stomping down on a peasant rebellion. To march, a military must have provisions. Provisions are very large and heavy, they limit the army's mobility. What is the solution to this? Well, the army can't just steal from the peasants, that would simply upset the whole order, if they did, the king is just a gangster despot that wont last long or build a strong empire. Remember, the king has a lot of incentive to keep his peasants orderly and even pleased, the king always says that the justice and wisdom of the gods is on his side.

But, the army does collect tax from the peasants. In what form? non-perishable foods. The king takes food from the peasants who work the land and it use to feed his army, and all of the rest of his posse in the nobility and priestly classes. So can the army simply go around just taking food from the peasants whenever they want? No. Taxes are a seasonal thing, they happen only a few times a year at most. Why? Because periodic instead of indefinite taxation is much less painful. Taxes already feel like you're being robbed, at least if it's only once or twice a year, it's just like taking some medicine. One and done. Plus it's happening during harvest anyway, there's plenty to go around.

So, the army seems screwed, it needs to carry around all of this food to accomplish anything. Wrong. The King invents a token with his face on it and says "you can pay taxes with food, or with tokens". Bam. Instantly valuable token that the soldiers can carry around in a pouch on their waste and trade to peasants for food. And everyone gets taxed, so the soldiers can buy anything with it.

Money presupposes taxation.

>>19012704
kek

>>19013114
Sure if by merit you mean exclusively the ability to charm and beguile.
Actual meritocracy is in the CCP.
https://youtu.be/s 0 YjL9rZyR0

>>19012956
>you can't barter today in america
>therefore barter economies never existed
Do you lack the basic principles of logical thought anon? Sometimes I think I really am talking to niggers on here
Anyway modern Papua New Guinea societies prove you wrong

>>19013124
CCP, a country which follows pretty much fascist economic practices?

>>19011957
> The rich already own all the capital.
Every year there's more new millionaires who didn't inherit wealth, so that alone refutes your nonsense.

>>19013124
China isn't communist since they proclaimed themselves a party for all Chinese people, regardless of class.

Why has every society that has tried to implement Marxism degenerated into a dictatorship from which the former proletariat are the ones most desperate to escape?

>>19012990
>bro if somebody makes a bad trade then that doesn't count as captialism
Anon... Quit grasping the straws...

>>19013124
Chinese is fascist (not necessarily a bad thing) and their society is rife with nepotism and corruption. They do not serve as a good example of capitalism, because Chinese individual's economic freedom is serverely constrained compared to their contemporary countries

>>19013158
>nepotism and corruption.
Why are those bad again?

>>19013151
nope. Not a trade, it's a favour or a gift. There is no authority or law that enforces its terms, and there is no price set to make the trade.

>>19013184
He will now say "gommunism".
Americans are too retarded to think outside binary choices.

>>19011957
>Capitalism is the most evil system ever created
marx makes a point of avoiding (slave) moralisms like this one. it is also the logical endpoint of the so-called free market, despite your claim of "exact opposite of a free market"

>>19012295
you can't have private property without a state, and states don't pop up until after agriculture arrives on the scene, you absolute historylet

>>19012371
"safety, food, and shelter" aren't money

>>19012827
bartering is a meme. there is no archeological evidence of a C-C based mode of production

>>19013114
>Capitalistic hierarchy is more meritocratic than birthright and caste hierarchy
>this is what liberals actually believe
thanks for the kek anon

>>19011957
>Regardless, humans should be able to rise above our basic instincts to evolve as a species to be more fair and compassionate.
>>19012056
>Compassions and selflessness are the highest virtues. Read Schopenhauer. And capitalist society is spiritually bankrupt because everybody is competing for material goods, you need to to survive under capitalism.

This is idealistic spooked nonsense. Marx wasn't a moralistic retard appealing to utopian mumbo jumbo. The motives assumed were self interested.

>>19013242
based and class interest pilled

>>19011957
>Capitalism is the most evil system ever created. It’s the exact opposite of a free market. It is a total dictatorship of the rich. The rich people are also the ones who are served most by a government. For the most basic reason a government even exists is to enforce property rights.
This is Autocratic Capitalism, the form that succeeded Feudalism. But Capitalism, unlike Feudalism, insisting on education and agency, provides a way out: Labor unions. Unions counterweigh corporations so as to create a dialectic that gradually moves us towards Democratic Capitalism, under which corporations are run like republics, rather than dictatorships. Only thing is, Marxians would call this Socialism.

Will Marx give me government issued wife?

>>19013071
I see. I agree then. I just think that its good to underline that actual barter trade did historically occur.

a further clarification for other people who might be reading this:
the point is not that barter didn't occur, but that it wasn't like in the typical capital fetishist's robinsonade fantasy, where individual trade begins not following the disintegration of common tribal property, but where people are created by God as independent individuals endowed with private property, including means of labour, who subsequently "voluntarily" associate into tribes and keep working individually, from the beginning exchanging the products of their individual labour with the other members of the tribe. this is obviously ahistorical nonsense, but it's what those morons have to ultimately believe.

>>19013099
you're missing the point then. "fairness" has a very real meaning. the point is that its meaning, its content, is the idealization of the bourgeois demand for the abolition of feudal estates with their different privileges, which was the condition for the bourgeoisie becoming the ruling class and then morphed into the defense of the bourgeois rule from the feudal reaction.
referring to it as "bourgeois" serves to point out that it's ideological and anti-communist, not to call it "le bad" and to insult someone associated with it.

>>19013118
that's a nice story, but there's simply nothing that makes taxation necessary for the emergence of money. you only need a relatively regular exchange and a commodity that has natural properties that make it convenient as a store of value, means of circulation, means of payment. you talk about a king inventing a token with his face on it, but what about sea shells or salt? they were also used as money, in fact they still are. do you really think this only emerged because of some king's edict and not simply out of convenience of small groups exchanging their products between one another?

>>19013141
it doesn't refute it, because what OP said is a retarded tautology that can't be refuted. if someone's a "new millionaire" then they're rich.

>>19013158
nepotism, corruption and the constraining of the "individuals' economic freedom" is the norm in capitalism. show me a capitalist country where it doesn't happen. hard mode: one with a population over 15 million.

>>19013277
Marxists would call this "an utter retardation produced by a frogposter who likely isn't baiting but actually is this stupid".

>>19013284
never, you should pick up fascist larp as a hobby if you can't cope with being an incel otherwise

>>19013284
Not the one that died in 1883

>>19011957
>No. The rich already own all the capital. There’s nothing that can be done now except take it back. With force if necessary.
Do you think these hierarchies disappear with the advent of new rulers? Of course not.

The chances of success are not equal, but there is more recourse for success within capitalistic frameworks than planned ones.

>>19013292
>never, you should pick up fascist larp as a hobby if you can't cope with being an incel otherwise
Elaborate.
Food, Shelter, and Sex are the basic necessities for a human to survive.
Why would I expend my effort for a community that refuses to furnish me with the basics?

>the free market is the exact opposite of the free market

Interesting.

>>19013311
>Sex is a basic necessity
the average coomer, everyone

>>19013354
Prove it wrong then.
If you die your entire family dies.
Sex is a basic necessity to continue the gene.
Food and Security are pointless if you just keel over without reproducing.

>>19013358
sex is socially necessary yes, but not for the individual

>>19013292
>Marxists
While every Marxist seems to be Marxian, not every Marxian is Marxist. Marxians are those who consider and apply the ideas of Marx as laid down in Das Kapital, such as historical and dialectical materialism, surplus value, commodity fetishism, etc. Marxists are those who believe and seek to implement the doctrine Marx developed in the Communist Manifesto, i.e. wage a global class war, deprive all proprietors, and establish majority rule over property.

>>19013363
Caught the cuck.
Go pay Chad and Stacys bills and raise their kids, They clearly are genetically superior and you will do mankind a favour by cutting off your balls.

>>19013180
Nepotism can argued to be favorable, but corruption can't.
Corruption makes the gears of the system of society turn less smoothly, making things less efficient. When you need to pay bribes for everything, only the wealthy can afford the basic affordings of society. It essentially turns into lawlessness, where rules are enforced at whim. Lawlessness is detrimental to society, because a society's only foundation is upon collective principles that everyone promises to uphold.
>but lawlessness is based just like my ancap memes
Unless you are on the bottom. Societies should strive to create circumstances where being on the bottom isn't a hopeless endeavor. This loops back around to a proper capitalist system being good, whereas with enough drive and talent, they can rise above their predetermined caste.

>>19013292
Nepotism and corruption are not the norm in the most successful capitalist societies. Countries like Norway, US, UK, Germany and Sweden have very low corruption and nepotism, and are vastly more sucessful and rich than those Eastern Euro countries where corruption is the norm. And that is just among whites.

>>19013392
>This loops back around to a proper capitalist system being good, whereas with enough drive and talent, they can rise above their predetermined caste.
How is this different from the CCP system? You do well on a standard test, you get higher education. Get assigned a position and an engineer somewhere if you do well become a manager and then get evaluated every 5 years and placed in different positions such as regional manager and such.
It's much harder to make your way up in such a system through nepotism and bribery than it is in Capitalism.

>>19013415
Correlation =/= Causation.
Nigeria is a massive country with great industry and the laborers still get paid 100$ a month.
They are being exploited by western countries and fooled with the capitalist delusion.

>>19013311
I don't care. neurotic social invalids are a byproduct of capitalism. they don't play a relevant role in the class struggle of the proletariat and neither will they ever constitute a non-negligible factor in a communist society. they're irrelevant to communists from all points of view.

>>19013460
Not only do you lack empathy you are also stupid.
Lads like these are a direct result of lack of cunny.
I don't have source, but a certain Middle Eastern, government funded terror cell was defused by issuing them wives.

>>19013380
the so-called "ideas of Marx" are simply descriptions of the conditions of the liberation of the proletariat. if you aren't a (Marxist) communist, then you aren't "applying them". "global class war", the expropriation of the expropriators and the dictatorship of the proletariat follow directly from what's developed in Capital. in fact the book refers to the future communist society directly multiple times, such as:

>Let us finally imagine, for a change, an association of free men, working with the means of production held in common, and expending their many different forms of labour-power in full self-awareness as one single social labour force. All the characteristics of Robinson’s labour are repeated here, but with the difference that they are social instead of individual. All Robinson’s products were exclusively the result of his own personal labour and they were therefore directly objects of utility for him personally. The total product of our imagined association is a social product. One part of this product serves as fresh means of production and remains social. But another part is consumed by the members of the association as means of subsistence. This part must therefore be divided amongst them. The way this division is made will vary with the particular kind of social organization of production and the corresponding level of social development attained by the producers. We shall assume, but only for the sake of a parallel with the production of commodities, that the share of each individual producer in the means of subsistence is determined by his labour-time. Labour-time would in that case play a double part. Its apportionment in accordance with a definite social plan maintains the correct proportion between the different functions of labour and the various needs of the associations. On the other hand, labour-time also serves as a measure of the part taken by each individual in the common labour, and of his share in the part of the total product destined for individual consumption. The social relations of the individual producers, both towards their labour and the products of their labour, are here transparent in their simplicity, in production as well as in distribution.

>The veil is not removed from the countenance of the social life-process, i.e. the process of material production, until it becomes production by freely associated men, and stands under their conscious and planned control.

>The value-form of the product of labour is the most abstract, but also the most universal form of the bourgeois mode of production; by that fact it stamps the bourgeois mode of production as a particular kind of social production of a historical and transitory character.

>>19013496
>>19013380
(cont.) and so is the impending expropriation of the expropriators explicitly derived in Capital:
>The capitalist mode of appropriation, which springs from the capitalist mode of production, produces capitalist private property. This is the first negation of individual private property, as founded on the labour of its proprietor. But capitalist production begets, with the inexorability of a natural process, its own negation. This is the negation of the negation. It does not re-establish private property, but it does indeed establish individual property on the basis of the achievements of the capitalist era: namely co-operation and the possession in common of the land and the means of production produced by labour itself.
>The transformation of scattered private property resting on the personal labour of the individuals themselves into capitalist private property is naturally an incomparably more protracted, violent and difficult process than the transformation of capitalist private property, which in fact already rests on the carrying on of production by society, into social property. In the former case, it was a matter of the expropriation of the mass of the people by a few usurpers; but in this case, we have the expropriation of a few usurpers by the mass of the people.

notice especially: "But capitalist production begets, with the inexorability of a natural process, its own negation". communism is not some arbitrary political demand that can be separated from the scientific investigation in Capital. it is its direct result.

>>19013415
"very low" compared to some third world shitholes. they still have plenty corruption and nepotism, believe me.

>>19013480
I do empathize (up to a specific point), I'm just stating the fact that your issues have nothing to do with communism. and yes, I'm aware the bourgeoisie will gladly use naive desperate losers as cannon fodder, but it's not like they're their essential weapon or anything. the professional soldiers of serious bourgeois states are the exact opposites of those islamists that incels claim.

>>19013438
Nigeria has more state control of the economy than any of the aforementioned western countries, that's why they get paid so low, because of government restrictions on the economy.

>>19011957
shut the fuck up

no system will ever work until we nuke 90% of the population and start over

>>19013480
>>19013460
>>19013506
https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2015/10/send-them-chocolate/409204/
Proofs.

>>19013529
proofs of what? that the Palestinian bourgeoisie used a bunch of morons as cannon fodder in the fight for asserting its national interest over Israel's and then, once they decided they didn't need them anymore, they managed to reign them in by giving them a wife and a place to live? sure, seems entirely plausible.

>>19012030
Based

>>19011957
>Capitalism is the most evil system ever created.
>>19013130
>CCP, a country which follows pretty much fascist economic practices?
...
>Fallaci: Do you mean to say that capitalism isn’t so bad after all?

>Deng: It depends on the way you look at it. In any case, it is better than feudalism. We cannot say that all of the things that have been developed in capitalist countries are of a capitalist nature. Technology, for example; science; the ways of managing the economy, which is another science in itself, do not bear a classist stigma. And we intend to learn these things from you in order to aid us in our construction of a socialist society.

>Fallaci: And yet, at the end of the 1950s, I seem to recall, when you realized that the Great Leap Forward had been a failure, you recognized that man needs an incentive to produce; I would even argue that man needs an incentive to exist. Doesn’t that mean questioning the ideas of Communism itself?

>Deng: According to Marx, socialism, which is the first stage of Communism, covers a very long period. And, during this period, we will try to fulfill the principle “From each according to his ability, to each according to his work.” In other words, we will blend the interests of the individual with the interests of the country. There is no other way to mobilize interest in production among the masses, let’s admit it. And since the capitalist West will be helping us to overcome the backwardness we find ourselves in — the poverty that afflicts us — it doesn’t seem opportune to get caught up in the subtleties. However things go, the positive effects will be greater than the negative effects.

>Fallaci: “It doesn’t matter if the cat is black or gray, as long as it eats the mice,” you once said. Would you apply the same pragmatism, even the same tolerance, to political life? I ask you, thinking of an answer you gave during your visit to America: “In China we must eliminate dictatorship and broaden democracy.” What democracy were you referring to? The kind based upon free elections and a multi-party system?

>Deng: I never said anything like that! That’s a misunderstanding. But I can tell you that, after having removed the Gang of Four, we strongly emphasized the necessity of promoting socialist democracy. Without losing, you understand, the dictatorship of the proletariat. Democracy and dictatorship of the proletariat are two parts of the same antithesis, and proletarian democracy is far superior to its capitalist counterpart. We are emphasizing the Four Principles that we must adhere to: the principle of socialism, the principle of dictatorship of the proletariat, the principle of Marxism and Leninism elaborated in Mao Zedong Thought, and the principle of leaders supported by the Communist Party of China. So, you see, that even the principle of dictatorship of the proletariat has remained untouched and untouchable.

>>19013574
Proofs. That a dude will not stop trying to destroy himself and everything around him until he has basic necessities which includes sex.

>>19013581
So many misunderstandings could be solved if the people talking smack about communist alteast read the basics.
There is no CCP "Dictatorship". CCP IS China.

>>19013592
>CCP IS China.
elaborate

>>19012248
name a factory owner who built the machinery themselves

>>19013600
https://youtu.be/s 0 YjL9rZyR0
Everybody and anybody is welcome to join the party by doing well in standardized tests and showing efficiency and management skills and only way to succeed in the party is to display wisdom and ability in managing your assigned factory, region or government function. 90% of party members are Engineers of one or another science.

>>19013616
i like that

>>19013581
sounds like fascism minus the cult of personality

>>19013633
which is actually what makes it "not" fascism. similar, but not the same. mussolini is responsible for modernizing italy

>>19013616
link doesn't work. a dictatorship of a clique of engineers is still a dictatorship. DOP is still a dictatorship

people's stick

>>19011957
>I read Marx and it all clicked
>Capitalism is the most evil system
>I read Marx and I got moralistic nonsense out of it

>>19013427
>get assigned
Herein lies the problem. The assignment is done through party channels, and those with connections but little talent will systematically rise to higher positions. It's not a terrible system, but neither is the capitalist US, which does not have bribery as a problem.
>>19013438
In addition to the other Anon's point, Nigeria has extensive corruption, and thus flounders in the same way Eastern Euro countries do.

>>19013592
>CCP IS China.
No is not, also the CCP can't even take Taiwan which they claim is theirs.

>>19013506
Yes they have nepotism and corruption, but I would argue the reason they aren't third world shitholes is because they don't have as much corruption and nepotism. I argue corruption causes countries to flounder and worsen

>>19013645
It's not dictatorship if it's by the people themselves elected through pure, machine measured merit instead of kneepads as is done in the western world.
The link has spaces because of chan filters.

>>19013578
>Lobster man
>can't read a pamphlet

>>19013671
China is a dictatorship according to all freedom indexes that exist in the modern world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices

>>19013660
Lobbyism.
Now what?

>>19013671
if the party makes you do shit you don't want to do it's dictatorship. even pure democracy is dictatorship of the majority.

>>19012612
What does people fighting have to do with anything?

>>19013680
Not only arbitrary, but also irrelevant.
Taliban is a terrorist organisation according to UN.

>>19013680
i want to make a dictatorship with high freedom but completely eliminate democracy

it will be fun

>>19013684
I don't want to work for a living, but live in a milk bath and wear gold nipple clamps.
What do you mean I can't do that? Fascist.

>>19013696
yes.

>>19013689
>Not only arbitrary
Arbitrary is you saying china is not a dictatorship because you feel is not lmao
>Taliban is a terrorist organisation according to UN.
They are, they helped Osama bin Laden back when he was wanted as a terrorist.

>>19012082
Based and redpilled

>>19013581
not a huge fan of deng, but I can't help but admire the man for making ultras eternally seethe

>>19013652
so? the KMT likewise claims the mainland as theirs. and both agree there is only one China

>>19013680
>muh bourgeois freedumbs

>>19013722
>and both agree there is only one China
Yeah, Taiwan doesn't believe in the CCP. China is Not the CCP then.

>>19013709
>They are, they helped Osama bin Laden back when he was wanted as a terrorist.
Arbitrary.
>Arbitrary is you saying china is not a dictatorship because you feel is not lmao
Is the US a dictatorship then? You are chained by the capital algorithm and if refuse to obey you're out on the street starving.

>>19013725
>Is the US a dictatorship then? You are chained by the capital algorithm and if refuse to obey you're out on the street starving.
yeah

>>19013725
>Arbitrary.
No, the Taliban helped Osama bin Laden is a fact, not arbitrary, moron.
>Is the US a dictatorship then?
No, you can buy guns at any time to defend yourself. That's the literal opposite of a dictatorship.

Gommunism is a spook

>>19013738
>No, you can buy guns at any time to defend yourself. That's the literal opposite of a dictatorship.
i live in nyc, u r wrong

>>19011957
moralfagging in the first sentence proves you didnt get marx, read him again then read Althusser

>>19013738
>That's the literal opposite of a dictatorship.
Why don't you do anything then cuck?
>No, the Taliban helped Osama bin Laden is a fact, not arbitrary, moron.
Osama Bin Laden is not a terrorist.

>>19012877
>admits most christians arent like this
>except leftists prots that are one step from atheism
>this means nietzsche was right
retard
xxsrd

>>19013749
>Why don't you do anything then cuck?
About?
>Osama Bin Laden is not a terrorist.
China(CCP) itself said Al-Qaeda is a terrorist organization, and Osama is the founder of Al-Qaeda, you are such an ignorant dumbass lul.

>>19013759
About needing a license of a machine gun.

>>19013745
You can buy guns if you try, sure NYC is more restricted than other states so is an exception but you can still get them if you really want
>New York City has its own rules for purchasing and carrying firearms. To own a handgun, you need a valid City handgun license. To own a rifle or shotgun, you need a City-issued permit.

>>19013759
Appeal to authority. I don't give two shit what China or the UN said.
Taliban is fought for the freedom of Afghanistan.
Partisans in Poland and Lithuania were called brigands by the CCCP.

>>19013363
*reproduction is necessary for the individual
if you wont recognize this you're either a cuck or really want to recreate the eunuch service class
actually kind've based if the latter

>>19013779
>You can buy guns if you try, sure NYC is more restricted than other states so is an exception but you can still get them if you really want
cuck

>>19013782
there is nothing wrong with being a terrorist. one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. branding someone a terrorist is just a moral judgement and you shouldn't appeal to people who argue in that way

>>19013801
Why you keep projecting? I don't even live in NYC nor do I care what they do

>>19013812
>keep
it's cuck logic.
shall not be infringed.

>>19013812
And next they will restrict you to 25 rounds, then 20, then 5. And you won't do shit because you're little cuck mutt.

>>19013774
see>>19013812

>>19013831
in nyc it's 7

>>19013831
Where do you live? I bet your country doesn't even allow guns lmao

>>19013851
>his country has to "allow" him to get guns

>>19013858
Yeah I see you live in a shithole that has no guns. If there is no guns in your country that means slavery has been perfected there.

>>19013749
>infringement
infringement proposes "rights"
fucking liberal

>>19013851
Somewhere where you only need a loicense for a gun, but there is nobody to enforce the law. So you can do whatever the fuck you want. True Freedom.

>>19013866
if you let your country tell you what you cannot do you're already a slave

>>19011957
>why yes i believe the administration of a nation with well over 300 000 000 people and growing is easily comparable to the administration of a small Paleolithic tribe

leftist intellectualism never ceases to amaze me

>>19013870
where is this? i want to go there

>>19013851
every word out of your mouth is
'baby's first libertarian steps'
read for 10 more years

>>19013883
Somalia.

>>19013875
Slavery comes in degrees, the country who has most guns is the less slaved since is the one that has the most chance of fighting their own government.

>>19013895
do you actually live in somalia
how is it there
are you black
i remember there was some white anon living in some african shithole and would tell us stories on /pol/

>>19013888
Not an argument

>>19013903
advice
take it

>>19013896
>we slaves can revolt so we are not slaves
lol

>>19013870
>>19013895
Somalia only has 12 guns per 100 people whereas the US has 120 per 100 people, you are not even close to true freedom.

>>19013915
>he relies on other people for his freedom

>>19013909
No, I have more knowledge than you. Nazi.

>>19013915
While you have120, 5 rounds magazine peashooters capped at 9mm. Somalians have 12 Aircraft carriers per 100 people.
Who is more free?

>>19013919
Even Australia has more guns per capita than you, you are embarrassing

>>19013925
i think a better argument would be that somalians are able to own newly manufactured machine guns, while americans are not

>>19013932
>my freedom comes from other people having guns
lolbertism is peak slave morality second only to utopian socialism

>>19013935
It's hyperbole for comedic effect, but that's the gist.

>>19013925
What? Somalia has aircraft carriers? They are useless if everyone in the US way more guns than them.

>>19011957
>ever created
Doesn't marx think capitalism is a force of history thats always existed

>>19013940
>he thinks americans are capable of understanding hyperbole
see >>19013946

>>19012082
Read After Virtue

>>19013939
>he keeps projected in the greentext
You are boring, your african shithole has no guns in comparison, you one one of the most slaved countries on earth. The end

>>19013953
wtf does my freedom have to do with whether or not other people have guns retard

>>19013963
Because you alone will do nothing against government tyranny. Your freedom is dependant on the freedom of the people that live around you.

>>19013583
some of them will, but most will just sit on their asses and whine on the internet, which will certainly be destructive to themselves, but hardly to anything outside their basement.

>>19013660
no, it's the reverse: the reason they have as much corruption and nepotism is because they are third world shitholes.

>>19013671
china is not a proletarian dictatorship? indeed.

>>19013947
no

>>19013952
post-hegelian philosophy is a complete waste of time

>>19013972
lol

>>19013981
Great argument

>>19013980
>post-hegelian philosophy is a complete waste of time

>>19013980
>some of them will, but most will just sit on their asses and whine on the internet, which will certainly be destructive to themselves, but hardly to anything outside their basement.
Yes. While they can afford to take what's their from the government. Once they are forced to work for nothing guess what will happen.

>>19011957
Nice bait.

>No. The rich already own all the capital. There’s nothing that can be done now except take it back. With force if necessary.
Read an actual economics textbook, this is already accounted for. Don't attack a strawman that no country has ever implemented.

>It doesn’t. Paleolithic societies practiced primitive communism. Regardless, humans should be able to rise above our basic instincts to evolve as a species to be more fair and compassionate.
Show me a large scale communist society. No, the USSR, Cuba, China, Vietnam, etc do not count. Their abyssal worker productivity, destitute poverty, and massive black markets that were only solved as they embraced capitalistic systems only works against you. A group of men providing for their families does not count. It would be nice if people could rise above their own self-interest, but it's unrealistic to assume they will. It's interesting how leftists will fight back tooth and nail against right-wingers that say minorities need to work on their moral character to solve their own issues, but will demand people learn to work hard for no reward.

>>19013980
>after virtue
>post hegelian

>>19014011
neither you or OP read marx

>>19014010
nothing. most of them are fat slobs who don't even exercise and whose only skill is being able to name all the league of legends characters. islamists are different animals because they come from poor villages where they have to fend for themselves from the time they're little.

>>19014034
leave it to the frogposters to be the biggest retards. After Virtue was published exactly 150 years post Hegel's death. it's not that complicated.

>>19014063
Anon please I don't have enough retard reaction images to keep up with your posts

>>19012030
Absolutely based.
Fuck delusion.

Capitalism is not the problem it's the government that is the problem. The system allowing politicians to be bought out is the problem. There is no efficient alternative to a market capitalist system. Worker ownership is retarded and contrary to Cockshott he has no working planned economy model.

Cant wait to die in the future because millenials and zoom zooms completely bought into a meme ideology

>>19011957
I too once read Marx and got carried away. It helps to step outside your own head and truly engage with the material you read anon.

Capitalism is a modern invention of Europeans. They brainwash people to think it is the only possible system.

>>19011957
You absolute retard, the point of Marx is that capitalism is a temporary system where labor and capital confront each other on more-or-less equal footing, labor's only disadvantage being ideological unconsciousness.

>>19012248
>lend
it might be 9 hours later
but this is too much
they would just give them the spear retard, its called a gift
works great within tribal boundaries

>>19014275
>B-but African people don't HAVE to work for 100$ a month and still be in debt just to buy some eggs and rice! Because Capitalism!

>>19014861
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Nigeria&displayCurrency=USD

>>19013723
pure idealism. this question will be resolved when/if the CCP and KMT resume active fighting. but seeing how the KMT is dependent on the US for help and the CCP cucking the US slowly but surely, things do not look for for the KMT in the long run. this is why the US is angling for war in mainland China

>>19013798
the eunuch and the wagie are two sides of the same coin

Capitalism is not a system and it wasn’t created
It is the natural flow of resources between people

>>19014947
Somebody had to go ahead and say I guess. The dumbest shit you could say.

>>19014962
No, you are just a retarded tranny. People have been exchanging resources and labor since humanity reached full sentience

>>19012140
In the fart letters to Nora Barnacle, Joyce has given us a more prescient criticism of modernity than any conservative thinker (lmao, they don't exist, inb4 Straussfag) has ever managed.

>>19014988
Sharing*
You don't trade in-tribe unless you're sick in the head.

>>19014988
>what is a mode of production?

>>19013633
The thing is, even if you consider Deng a fascist, what makes him different is that he didn't view what they were doing as the end state, just a transitionary period. Another important difference is that Deng didn't really have a huge cult of personality like you think. Sure, they had propaganda posters with his picture on them. But he wasn't exactly strutting around like Benito. You should read Deng's writings and interviews. He was an interesting guy.

>>19014988
some vague "exchanging of resources and labour" is not nearly sufficient for capitalism. it must be specifically exchange of equivalents between the labour-power of propertyless workers and the wage provided by the owners of the private means of production, and it must dominate the economy. and economy which rests on the foundation on slave labour or serfdom which happens to have some capitalist activity on the margins can't be reasonably called capitalist. nor can a tribal economy where the members share the land and put everything they produce into a common consumption stock.

https://youtu.be/V9-D8h4iDaI?t=104
He's making too much sense bros..
What do I do?

>>19015087
>what makes him different is that he didn't view what they were doing as the end state, just a transitionary period
the leftist wing of the italian fascist party interpreted fascism in the same way.
> Another important difference is that Deng didn't really have a huge cult of personality like you think
that's why I said "minus the cult of personality"
> You should read Deng's writings and interviews.
I will because he was intelligent and a good man.

>>19011957

>I read Marx
>capitalism is evil

No you didn't

>>19015297
what are the best secondary works on marx. every time i pick one up they argue for it through bourgeoisie morality

>>19015273
>What do I do?
accept that the state is a tool of class power. in the US it is in the hands of the bourgeoisie. in China it is in the hands of the working class

>>19011957
You will never win against capital.

>>19015607
OK agent Smith

Absolutely based thread.

>>19015641
Historically ancom would be on the ground

>>19015607
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56448688
It's so easy.
Watch this:
>>19015273

>>19015641
>>19015661
Again, you will never win against capital. Continue your cuckmunist fellatio here https://leftypol.org..

>>19015701
How are those faggots related to downfall of the US?

>>19015413
>what are the best secondary works on marx
none

>>19015594
the Chinese party oversees a mass scale exploitation of workers for the benefit of both local and foreign capital. people who dare to call it proletarian are getting the wall before fascists

>>19016195
it's far from perfect and I hope they move to something like cybernetic socialism in the near future. but as long as the west isn't doing better I'm not going to rag on it

>>19016232
just read marx you stupid fuck, that's all I'm gonna tell you

>>19016561
I've read volume 1 and most of volume 2 of Capital dingus. there's certainly plenty to criticize the CCP over, but I don't live in a place that has a better system at the moment so that's where I need to focus my energy

>>19015286
>the leftist wing of the italian fascist party interpreted fascism in the same way.
What about the rest of the Italian fascist party

>>19015273
>What do I do?
Watch this one next:

https://youtu.be/9DOauvmg4Kg?t=1133

Socialism does not work.

Marxism does not work.

Communism does not work.

Marx was wrong about every single thing and has been thoroughly refuted.

Leftists are mentally ill people with the mind of a child.

>>19016918
Uh oh capitalist bros

>>19016931
*fails like every other time*

>>19016936
The collapse of the USSR wasn't the end of socialism. It was just the end of the beginning of socialism.

>>19016958

>>19016918
>Marx was wrong about every single thing and has been thoroughly refuted.
>works cited: none

>>19016963
Socialism just doesn't fall out of the sky

>>19016976
>>19016987

>>19016997
still no works cited
meanwhile 20 or so million starve to death every year in capitalism

>>19016889
There were many wings. There were liberals, monarchists, proletariat and bourgeoisie factions. Criticism of the regime was always welcome, but opposition was destroyed. Mussolini always had the final say.

Fascists on the right generally detested economic manners and considered it decadent and philosophically the Fascists held that there was no distinction between "public" and "private" and there was only the collective unity of the state. Gentile considered Fascism to be correct socialism, and I haven't read anything from him which suggested he ideologically opposed "worker ownership of the means of production" but he hated marx's reduction of people into two classes.

>>19017007
Mises, Hayek, Rothbard, Hoppe, Sowell and the list goes on and on and on

>>19016997
I don't see a metaphysical god in the sky, only fields of wheat extending horizontally to the horizon under the proud red banner

>>19017007
The people inside capitalism are not starving. Even Marx would detest this shitty moralistic critique on capitalism.

>>19017024
Russia used to export food, then leftism happened.

>>19017015
all of those are hopelessly idealist. mises in particular. it's actually quite funny that mises was angry with hayek for formulating the ECP in a way that it can be refuted. pseuds the lot of them

>>19017027
tell that to people in places like subsaharan africa, dumbass. the same goes for easy to produce medicine, the lack of which also kills tens of millions of people every year

>>19017038
Leftism got thoroughly btfo. Now shut the fuck up and stop ruining this board imbecile.

>>19017041
still no works by actual respected academics cited

>>19017044
Kill yourself.

>>19017047
no I don't think I will :^)

>>19017038
Sub-Saharan africa doesn't have civilization, let alone capitalism.

>>19017024
LE TRAD WHEAT FIELDS BUT.... COMMIE?

>>19017014
>but he hated marx's reduction of people into two classes.
There are many classes. But which class can replace the capitalist class and take power and change the world? The intelligentsia, PMCs and engineers, the petit bourgeoisie, or the lumpenproletariat? They can all lend a hand, but can they play an independent historical role?

>>19017072
There's so much wheat, dude, you don't even know...

https://youtu.be/gsKn5KX6XnU
https://youtu.be/AF8so_FlVE0
https://youtu.be/_dFG99vi8OY

>>19016709
>there's certainly plenty to criticize the CCP over
yes, like the fact that they're a national bourgeois party that oversees mass exploitation of proletarians and imperialism, all under the pretense of communism. it's not about criticizing or not criticizing anything but about not being embarrassingly deluded and not adding insult to the injury of the many millions of Chinese workers.

>>19017014
>but he hated marx's reduction of people into two classes.
lol another dumb faggot who hasn't read Marx
and "worker ownership of the means of production" is an empty weasel phrase that can mean anything up to and including employee stock options

>>19017091
In early political fascism the historic role to replace the bourgeoisie class was to be the revolutionary class of fascists, professional revolutionaries. They were Blanquists in that sense.

I have never read Gentile's economic critiques because they are sparse and that's not the theme of his philosophy but I do know that he was not a fan of capitalism at all.

Seeing how the purpose of the state for Gentile was pedagogy, and how the Fascists despite declaring "war against socialism", still kept Marxists around– I think the implementation of socialism would be a gradual process coming from the orders of the top down.

To me you can tell a lot about a person from how they treated other people. Mussolini from the few anecdotes I have read of him always treated workers he was acquainted with dignity and in his will wrote that he has "more respect for workers than the false prophets who claim to represent them." Even though Fascists found a lot of support in the middle class, Mussolini himself was still a son of a blacksmith proletariat– and even then the italian "middle class" of 1920 is not comparable to the middle class of today.

So Fascism as a political movement, on the surface was rife with what seems to be contradictory elements– but that's just us looking from the outside in of Mussolini's realpolitik. What his vision of Italy was, we can only see from here.

>>19017109
So romanticizing women in wheat fields isnt cringe when commies do it?

>>19017153
>lol another dumb faggot who hasn't read Marx
>and "worker ownership of the means of production" is an empty weasel phrase that can mean anything up to and including employee stock options
I haven't started reading marx yet. You are hostile for no reason.

>is an empty weasel phrase that can mean anything up to and including employee stock options
Is not the abolition of wage labor the central goal of marxist socialism?

>>19016195
>none
Give me the full read order pls

>>19017153
there are some porkies in the CCP right? I feel like they should address that posthaste

>>19017189
NTA but mere ownership is not enough, as that just amounts to market "socialism" which is unstable. see Yakovenko paper on the statistical mechanics of that

>>19017212
>NTA but mere ownership is not enough, as that just amounts to market "socialism" which is unstable
Which works from Marx address this. Is it in Capital? thank you.
>Yakovenko paper
Thank you.

>>19017212
>>19017189
So you guys don't like CCP
What do you think of Lenin and the Bolsheviks

>>19017238
>Which works from Marx address this. Is it in Capital? thank you.
Capital lays out a lot of the problems with market economies yes. but he's not that explicit on market socialism, I think. personally I find Marx to be a bit of a mathlet. a lot of what he says can be stated more concisely with differential algebra

>>19017260
>>19017153
What do you think of Lenin

>>19017261
ughhhhhhhh i hate economies and maths, it has never been fun for me. I have to drudge through his work and I can't delay it anymore.

>>19015594
>in China it is in the hands of the working class
Ah yes like the family of Xi Jinping who are literal rich capitalists that own overseas companies, you ccp shills are the most delusional people on the planet for sure.
>In 2012, Bloomberg reported that Deng Jiagui and Qi Qiaoqiao had holdings in Shenzhen Yuanwei Investment Co worth $288 million, and wholly owned other companies in the Yuanwei group worth $84.8 million - a total of $372.8 million.[1]

>>19017260
>What do you think of Lenin and the Bolsheviks
they were kind of fucked after the SPD cucked the German revolution. in many ways it's interesting that the CPSU did as well as they did, starting with an agrarian shithole like Russia

>>19017290
then perhaps Marx works better for you, ironically. I'm a huge autist so I prefer when things are formulated in concise equations. Marx do use some equations, but they're meant to be understandable to the average reader

>>19017300
still better than the US

>>19017341
>then perhaps Marx works better for you, ironically. I'm a huge autist so I prefer when things are formulated in concise equations. Marx do use some equations, but they're meant to be understandable to the average reader
Thank you

>>19017341
>still better than the US
>is fine to be buttfucked by corrupt millionares because they call themselves ccp
You are mentally ill.

>>19017391
seethe

>>19017387
if you want some easier to read summaries of Marx' main ideas I can recommend these two:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/

>>19017341
>It's ok to support the lesser evil because muh other Evil
This is why I think Lefties are sub humans

>>19017404
Kim, the only fatass in the entire country nk, that is person you worship. You are from a eastern european shithole don't you?

>>19017428
There's something really broken in their brains, is like they are willful slaves

>>19017471
>what's a "joke"?

>>19017428
cucking the US is beneficial to the vast majority of the world's population

>>19014861
Pinochet did nothing wrong

>>19012242
>Personal property =/= private property
There is no fundamental distinction, you colossal fucking retard.