/lit/ - Literature

this is a bait thread isnt it

no

>>19007957
Why do people hate Anarchism so much? Even a lot of far left people seem to think Anarchists are brainlets. Chomsky and Graeber are both Anarchists, and they're smart guys. What's the beef? Does anyone know what the deal is?

>>19007996
Chomsky is senile

at this point im nearly sold on Anarchism, i just need one good book and thats it

>>19008010


He was an Anarchist before he was senile

>>19007996
Propaganda that anarchists are either just terrorists or whiny college students and the lack of the history of anarchism being taught. When people think of Anarchism they don't think of anything actually relating to the history of it, instead they probably think of Fight Club.

was this guy right all along?

>>19008047

I understand that, but even leftists who seems in the know like Matt Chrismas or Virgil Texas (I know, I know) always make references to anarchists being idiots

>>19008052
It could be a lazy attempt to discredit them without having to actually engage in their arguments.

>>19007996
>>19008041
Chomsky was never an anarchist. Read this
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/bob-black-chomsky-nod
>>19008047
Anarchists were working pretty hard to earn this reputation, within few decades since first writings of Proudhon they have killed an empress of Austria-Hungary, a president of France, an emperor of Russia and a president of the US not to mention many other failed attempts to assassinate heads of states

>>19008074

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s957JiP_YhQ

This is the Matt Chrismas critique, which I guess sums it up

What is the anarchist solution for jews

>>19007996
its the dumbest, least functional "ideology" that has ever entered mainstream consciousness

>>19008047
i hate anarchism BECAUSE im aware of its history

>>19007968
Probably
>>19007957
>No Gods No Masters
>Demanding the Impossible
>God and State
>What is Property
>Anarchism and Other essays
>Mutual Aid a Factor in Evolution
>Vision on Fire
>Homage to Catalonia
to name a few

>>19008110
why does it need to function? thats the whole point, it doesnt need to function.

>>19008047
a history of anarchism:
>hey, did you here? anarchists made their ideology work with a small community of like minded people
>it turns out their existence relied entirely on the whim of statists around them though so the whole thing failed anyway
>anyway I am now going to undermine your nation and its people and try to throw you life into chaos in an attempt to recreate this failed utopian dream


truly, whats not to like?

>>19008143
behold the power of leftist intellectualism

>>19008143
>why does everyone hate and persecute us
also
>why yes i have no plan on building a functional society, i just want to create chaos and destroy everything that matters to you

The Machinery of Freedom. Very easy to read, very interesting ideas

>>19008168
>he doesn't know that the machine's breakdowns are integral to how it functions

>>19008197
i can accept break downs though, you're talking about complete and utter destruction (which wont even actually be what happens as a result iof your ideas, as your anarchism will be nothing more than a transition back to statism)

>>19008015
this. it goes into following the nonviolent teachings of Christ, and how the natural conclusion to that is a Christian anarchism.

>>19008214
No anon. MY Anarchism will be the next great mode of production which was transmuted from the coming age of personally owned and alienated but micro productive equipment in to a distributed collectivised network surpassing assembly lines in efficiency.

The real reason is because Marxism ruined all alternative forms of social unity (including the original form of communism).. With this weapon (Marxism), the state can continue to infiltrate and ruin any and all attempts to unite without tacitly accepting tyranny.
The rest is just propaganda to demonize people who don't accept the state, same as always.
If you want a real discussion on what a non-Marxist communism/anarchic collective looks like, read the Invisible Committee's books.
You won't though; instead you'll just stay here ranting about shit you know nothing about other than what you saw in movies and TV.

>>19008077
Sounds pretty based.

>>19008130
based. very nice collection.

>>19008267
care to elaborate on that?

>>19008025
Any specific topic that interests you? I recently read Fragments of an Anarchist Anthropology by Graeber and thought it was brilliant, although there are a couple of things I have quips with in there. I'd recommend it to you, it's very brief too.

>>19007957
There are a shit ton of different strains of Anarchism. Here's a few authors to check out, no particular order
>Errico Malatesta
>Emma Goldman
>Bob Black
>Fredy Perlman
>Navatore
>Peter Gelderloos
>ziq
>Benjamin Tucker
>John Zerzan
>Serafinski
Can also check out Desert, which was published anonymously.

>>19008407
startrek

>>19008419
>Can also check out Desert, which was published anonymously.
link?

>>19008001
I'm positive that I had this book as a kid, but I can't find it.
How is it related to anarchism though?

>>19007957
Anarchist Morality - Kropotkin
Malatesta
Bakunin
Cafiero

>>19008444
readdesert.org will redirect to https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/anonymous-desert

For those interested, it's focused on climate change and anarchism, and is something of a doom and gloom sort of reading. Worth your time all the same in my opinion.

>>19008155
>>19008182
Filtered

>>19008366
>Invisible Committee's books.
Interesting, noted

The conquest of bread

>>19008549
only the beginning and the end his ideas for an anarchist economy are extremely outdated

The Ego and Its Own

>>19007957
Anything by Bakunin, Marx and other Rothschild conspirators get thoroughly btfo

>>19008077
>isnt that also because they coopt anyone with an antiestablishment bent (not the proper pilosophical anarchism, and something that can simply include opositional stances to a party)
>>19008047
Also doesnt help that the work anarchy and anarchism predates the more formalized theory, so you got two interrelated concepts that have correlative elements. both soccar holagans and edgy teens and fightclub are anarchists with a lower case a while the movement in the spanish civil war was more anarchist with a capital A.

tbqh Anarchists propegandad themselves through their very terminology (not that anarchism is inaccurate to the theory, just that its a word that already had rather common use for the idea of pandemonium)

>>19008047
anarchism is just liberalism taken to its limits, the idea that it is an ideology that could build a new society is joke

>>19009404
oh my god shut the fuck up
you've never read anything about it in your life
it couldn't be more opposed to hypersocialized liberalism

>>19009399
>just that its a word that already had rather common use for the idea of pandemonium)
That's just YOUR perception of the word
When my grandpa was a kid, there was the king
And when the kids were being too loud, the elders would shout "What is it, the republic?"

>>19009520
>That's just YOUR perception of the word
well, yah, but it was also a common phraseology way before the theory proper with actual Anarchists in the 1800s and stuff like I said.

>>19009404
>_____ is just liberalism taken to its limits
is there a more overused turn of phrase for anthing?

>>19008432
Star Trek still has hierarchies though.

>>19010158
Time to go learn who archons are.

>>19010191
cheifs.

>>19010191
An archon is a ruler. Sadly they have no place in a society that has its name loosely translated to "without ruler".
And sadly anarchism has no place in Star Trek because they have rulers.

>>19008110
It functions perfectly well. It has functioned for a seriously longer time than this stumble and collapse cycle you like to call “civilization” (which is anything but civil!)

>>19008116
Read.

>>19010158
As a starship might still require. Again, anarchism is a questioning of all unjustifiable hierarchies, not no hierarchies.

>>19011498
Here you are. I swear I opened the thread expecting to see you here, you dumbcunt.
Is there some button activated in your head when we talk about anarchism?
Can you sense it in the air, hoe?

>>19011498
cringe recommendation butterfly. Just accept having an authority figure in your life.

>>19011498
>unjustifiable hierarchies
What does that mean?

>>19011498
>anarchism is a questioning of all unjustifiable hierarchies, not no hierarchies.

What gives you the authority to determine which hierarchies are justifiable and which ones are not?

What does /lit/ think of Bookchin?

Just ignore It when It posts, guys. Just ignore It.

>>19011498
>It functions perfectly well
>says the person who cant even explain how exactly moving from "civilization" to functioning anarchism is even viable

>>19011498
so0 how is this anarchist hierarchy not just a new government?

>>19007996
Because left anarchism is a meme ideology, run by retards who think that you can make massive supply chains work without supervision or any form of heirarchy. You have to look at the post-left theory to learn anything worthwhile.

>>19011498
>>19011511
>Can you sense it in the air, hoe?
I'm sorry, Butterfly. I didn't mean to be bad, it's the voices in my head telling me to be evil.
They want me to cut your wings and hammer them with a nail onto the walls of my bedroom.
It's not my fault.
They want me to do some stuff, the voices in my head.
Should I listen to them?
What is behind the glass, butts?
Have you ever been there?
The Mirrorland is really beautiful, they say.
A land of freedom and chaos, like the one where you would like to live.
Come live with me in the inverse-lands where everything is fair and modulated, Butts.
There's no evil there because is totally the inverse of this world.
Your twin is already there. She's been pretending to be you for too long.
It's time for you to meet each other.
She thinks you are so beautiful.
She can't never stop looking at you when you stare fixed into her eyes.
Go do it now, dear.
Go to the mirror.
She's the one admiring you while you combs your hair.

One day she gets tired of followin'...

>>19011537
>>19011538
People at work who claim to be your manager or supervisor are not usually worthy of such a distinction. If someone at a worksite knows more than you, it is a part of their job to teach you and get you up to speed. Some basic justifiable hierarchy are parents to children, teachers to students and experts to novices.

What gives people the right to impose common sense on the current madness? Our numbers ought to do it.

>>19011544
He’s sensible. Not as transformative as I thought he be, but an important piece of the puzzle, so to speak.

>>19011549
Have ya read the book (I posted) yet?

>>19011558
The people need a way to function. To maximize freedom, I advocate direct democracy with an emphasis on consensus voting. Nothing mandatory, plenty will opt out to live in the wood or to leech off the spoils of communal labor. You’ll take your chance sage that path. You’re free to.

>>19011597
You should stop spookposting, you're scaring my muse!

>>19011544
A former stalinist who flirted with "Anarchism" that was just Athenian Democracy, then got upset when only liberals were buying into, so created a philosophy too anarchist to attract marxists and too marxist to attract anarchists.

>>19011558
It is exactly that. Chomsky is the one who came up with the unjustifiable hierarchies line, and as much as he claims to be an anarchist, when push comes to shove he always sides with milquetoast liberals and the Democratic party. Which really shouldn't surprise anyone, he's an academic linguist, and largely shares the same opinions as other ivy league academics. He's fundamentally a larper, as far as radical politics goes.

>>19011615
>doesn't actually explain what the hierarchy is

you have no fucking clue what you are talking about when you spout this shit, do you? its all just buzz words isnt it?

>>19011615
>your chance THAT that path.
Weird.
>>19011621
>Chomsky is the one who came up with the unjustifiable hierarchies line
Naw. Proudhon

>>19011615
Seems like the hierarchies in America are fairly justified then. I certainly don't want to read a 2000 page infrastructure bill because I'm a novice when it comes to those kinds of things. I'll leave that up to the experts.
>but they should be teaching you
You can't teach millions everything about the laws while going through them.

>>19011615
>Have ya read the book (I posted) yet?
are you incapable of summarizing the ideas in it that refute what i said? im not going to read the fucking book if its so useless you cant even communicate the information in it after becoming so obsessed with it you post it in every thread regardless of its relevance to the topic at hand

>>19011627
>>doesn't actually explain what the hierarchy is
You asked what unjustifiable hierarchy is, you doof

>>19011643
>Yeyup. Joe Biden is perfect fer the job
Idiot. Please leave thread

>>19011658
no i asked how this legendary anarchist hierarchy differs from a government. and you didnt even explain what an unjustifiable hierarchy was

>>19011655
So I have to transcribe a whole book to you and you’re telling me you won’t even read it. Why am I supposed to believe you’ll read it when I tell it to you?
I have explained this over to you plenty of times. It is a daunting task. Hey, you’re not up to it. Everyone can see that. Bugger off. Don’t talk to me about it anymore. Obviously you’re not interested, “doomer”.

>>19011670
No. I did.
Pose a new question.

>>19011640
No, he didn't, and I guarantee you can't quote him on that. As usual, tripfags are essentially beneath responding to, but I'll go so far as to give you a collection of relevant quotes.

>Anarchism is a political theory which aims to create anarchy, “the absence of a master, of a sovereign.” [P-J Proudhon, What is Property , p. 264]
>“Unless democracy is a fraud and the sovereignty of the People a joke, it must be admitted that each citizen in the sphere of his [or her] industry, each municipal, district or provincial council within its own territory ... should act directly and by itself in administering the interests which it includes, and should exercise full sovereignty in relation to them.” [The General Idea of the Revolution, p. 276]
>“It is because society has divided itself into three categories of citizen corresponding to the three terms of the formula... that caste distinctions have always been arrived at, and one half of the human race enslaved to the other... socialism thus consists of reducing the aristocratic formula of capital-labour-talent into the simpler formula of labour!... in order to make every citizen simultaneously, equally and to the same extent capitalist, labourer and expert or artist.” [No Gods, No Masters, vol. 1, pp. 57–8]
>“the centralist system is all very well as regards size, simplicity and construction: it lacks but one thing — the individual no longer belongs to himself in such a system, he cannot feel his worth, his life, and no account is taken of him at all.” [quoted by Martin Buber, Paths in Utopia, p. 33]

>>19011683
>So I have to transcribe a whole book
no? i never asked that of you, i asked for a summary of books supposedly viable proposal for moving from a statist society to an anarchist one. what POSSIBLE reason would anyone have to trust your recommendation if you cant do at least that?

>>19011658
>Yeyup. Joe Biden is perfect fer the job
Yes.

>>19011693
>No. I did.
no you didnt, you prattled on about democracy, and it did not in anyway explain what this anarchist hierarchy that supposedly allows for the administration of large scale infrastructure and logistics projects looks like, and how its supposed to be different from an unjustifiable hierarchy

how do you feed 8 billion people with anarchism?

>>19011796
Eight billion people feed each other.
It’s not rocket science

>>19008086
What is your problem with the jewz?

Anarchism eliminates usury, money, nation states, centralized religion, likely ending the practice of circumcision and would look for ways to treat severe schizophrenia.
Go, scamper away into the forest. Fear not the large nose tribe

>>19011846
what if they dont? the soviets had to use mass violence to force farmers to comply. this isn't rocket science but it is a lot more complicated then "millions of people willingly do exactly what i want them to do and it just works" without further explanation

>>19011878
how the fuck does anarchism stop people from believing in religion and forming centralized religious structures?

>>19011942
not to mention the fact that communal farming was a failure that killed millions of people

>>19011942
>>19011962
Wait, didn’t Stalin invent famines? Now you’re blaming the farmers?
I bet you don’t understand what’s happening in Venezuela either.
WRONG THREAD GUYS.

Authority should not exist unless justified. How is it that hard?

>>19007957
Engels on Authority

>>19007957
>Anarchist
hmmmmm *sniffs*
>Anachrist
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
>Antichrist
AAAAAAHHH I HATE THE ANTICHRIST I HATE THE ANTICHRIST I HATE THE ANTICHRIST I HATE THE ANTICHRIST I HATE THE ANTICHRIST

>The Ego and Its Own
>The Conquest of Bread
Haven't read either of them yet but I've heard they're good.

>>19011621
>too anarchist to attract marxists
nobody wants to 'attract' that cancer. fuck off. anarchy is the polar opposite of your collectivist drivel. go get hit by a bus.

>>19011621
Athenian democracy was 1/8 of the population getting to decide shit.

>>19012303
Anarchism isn’t just your lone Wolf stuff. It’s collectivism has always been careful to consider the individual’s freedom

>>19007957

Read anything written by Peter Kropotkin.

>>19011878
Well that's what was said about socialism but it was just a kike ruse.

>>19012303
That's the point you retard, and one of the main problems with Bookchin's Social Ecology/Communalism.
>>19012388
Bookchin's ideal is explicitly Athenian Democracy, but with 50% participation.

>>19007957
Lord of the Flies

>>19012646
No, it isn’t. State socialism keeps state and capital. HOW ABOUT LISTENING TO BAKUNIN FOR ONCE