/lit/ - Literature

>>18992805
>There’s no point to anything if there’s no God.
Then thank God that He is. What would we have done without Him?

If you accept there’s no God, yeah. But what if you just pretend there is? It would be a cope for sure but it’s not even an illogical cope.

>>18992805
Wouldn't there be less hope if there is a God and we're all just scrambling around at his whim, than if God doesn't exist but our goal is to become him?

>>18992805
If you’re born poor, there is no good reason to keep living. Life for anyone who isn’t rich in the post-God world is nothing but incessant struggle without any purpose. You can’t even enjoy the journey towards nothingness because you’re too concerned with survival. You’re deprived of the great sensory pleasures derived from travelling the world with no concerns or living in a highly comfortable house. All you have is sex, and if you’re unattractive, then you have nothing. Intellectual pursuits may fill your time if you’re a NEET who lives with your poor parents, but only for some time until life becomes unbearable again

>>18992812
>>18992815
>>18992818
Even if there is a God then still all is Vanity without him. What good is the cinema of hours to a believer?

>>18992835
*with him

>>18992805
Christian here, if you believe God created the earth for you to live on why would there be any less point to life if there is no reward after it, even if there is no afterlife life itself is still the same. The point of life isn't what happens after you die, why would it be any different for you if there is or isn't a God?
For the rest of anyone on /lit/'s lifetime the world is going to be full of people who believe in a higher power even if they don't admit it's God so real or fake he is for all intensive earthly purposes real

Watch this Gaynon

https://youtu.be/j6qjibwpEzM

>THERE IS NO POINT TO ANYTHING UNLESS MY SKYDADDY SENT HIS LITTLE KIKE SON TO DIE ON A ROMAN STICK BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL ROASTIE BIT AN APPLE BECAUSE SNAKE TOLD HER SO!

>>18992805
He was not a smug nihilist

>There are many causes for a suicide, and generally the most obvious ones were not the most powerful. Rarely is suicide committed (yet the hypothesis is not excluded) through reflection. What sets off the crisis is almost always unverifiable. Newspapers often speak of "personal sorrows" or of "incurable illness." These explanations are plausible. But one would have to know whether a friend of the desperate man had not that very day addressed him indifferently. He is the guilty one. For that is enough to precipitate all the rancors and all the boredom still in suspension. But if it is hard to fix the precise instant, the subtle step when the mind opted for death, it is easier to deduce from the act itself the consequences it implies. In a sense, and as in melodrama, killing yourself amounts to confessing. It is confessing that life is too much for you or that you do not understand it. Let's not go too far in such analogies, however, but rather return to everyday words. It is merely confessing that that "is not worth the trouble." Living, naturally, is never easy. You continue making the gestures commanded by existence for many reasons, the first of which is habit. Dying voluntarily implies that you have recognized, even instinctively, the ridiculous character of that habit, the absence of any profound reason for living, the insane character of that daily agitation, and the uselessness of suffering. What, then, is that incalculable feeling that deprives the mind of the sleep necessary to life? A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.

>>18992805
>umteld too tousand yerz agu dere wuz noe pont too ani thing
Jump in a blender then, frog.

>>18992864
Don’t care, not ever going to read Camus as he comes across such a massive proto-Twitter faggot and his fans all need to be murdered for being annoying.

>>18992877
Shut up you old decrepit mummified hag. This board belongs to the young, not some ancient wrinkly barren lesbian whore

>>18992862
Sorry about texas, tranny, still, ywnbaw so you won't get pregnant either way.

>>18992805
>>18992815
This, OP. There are two possibilities that you can believe in, both of which aren't entirely unlikely. You can either believe that everything is just a play of atoms in the void and that there is no ultimate purpose or order to the universe, which would mean that you are just suffering for the sake of suffering and that the most logical thing to do would be to kill yourself in a pain free way, in order to be free of said suffering. But anon, there's also a very real possibility that there is a God and I urge you to live your life with this possibility in mind. You don't have to convert to a religion or even submit to one way of thinking. Look around you, there is an underlying structure to the universe and this underlying structure is a just one, one that works for ultimate justice and the betterment of the individual. Your time on earth here and your suffering, if anything are opportunities to learn. Opportunities to grow more understanding, caring, compassionate, patient and strong-willed as a person. Your being here has purpose.

What if you believed there was a God, but there was still no point?

>>18992905
again, what about:
>>18992908

Even with God life is still suffering. At least there's justice & absolution in the end which might give you some hope and strenght to deal with your life.

>>18992908
Exactly
Still all is Vanity besides God. The question of nihilism remains.

>>18992815
>>18992905
>>18992933
Some Mathanon BTFO'd Pascal's Wager with pic related

It really is fucking insane that consciousness evolved out of nothing in the universe. Why would the universe organize itself in such a way? And why here and (seemingly) nowhere else?

>>18992904
>nu-christcucks
>being against trannies or abortion

>>18992960
Whether it happened "accidentally" or a God created it neither make the slightest bit of fucking sense. For what pvrpose?

>>18993001
To give the Covenant back their bomb.

>>18992820
This

>>18992805
There's no point to anything if there is a God equally if there isn't. If we go with the Christian view then our reality is only the intro to the higher reality. Life itself is in a way a giant game or simulation where the end goal is to accumulate the Good Guy brownie points & be finally rewarded with access to a higher reality that we did not create & be absorbed into God for eternity, an existence which sounds very similar to nothingnness. And in the incomprehensible scope of infinity nothing we do in the here & now can possibly have significance. What could possibly be more nihilistic than Christianity?

>>18993001
Yeah agree. And the notion of our entire reality just being the creation of some being cause that creator felt like creating is some cosmic horror shit.

>>18992948
That's not true, the mathfag actually BTFO'd the image you posted.

>>18992935
If suffering were taken away, would nihilism still exist? And if suffering could be taken away - would it be nihilism that does it? I cannot see how an act such as suicide that creates so much suffering in its aftermath is the logical solution to suffering. Or, that the solution to the problem to the suffering of an individual suicide creates is a species-wide mass suicide, 'ending all suffering once and for all'. It seems to me, that if there was one individual that chose not commit suicide is this horrific mass-extinction event, the mental qualities that being possesses would be the answer the question of nihilism.

>>18992914
If you believed in God, there would be a point.

>>18993091
How so?

>>18993097
Are you talking about antinatalism? I don't know what you mean by these terms. The author of the most famous contemporary "nihilist" book is Thomas Ligotti and he said that if there is a preferred mode of existence then he would prefer a population with Ego Death. An Earth without the concept of Self. So there are many different "solutions" out there.

>>18992805
>If I am not controlled there is no point
>If I am controlled there is a point

This is why you're an NPC.
If god is real you are nothing more than a tool, designed with a purpose that you cannot escape from, and so your creation has no meaning to you only to your creator.
If god is not real it still does not mean your creation or what followed after was spontaneous, in fact there is no way it could have been according to hard science. Determinism is real whether or not god is real, which I suppose should comfort you knowing you have no control, but for those who truly do seek meaning this remains the greatest hurdle.

>>18993110
I do believe in God, possibly more than you do. In fact, there is no doubt in my mind that God exists. And, I am not angry at God, or blame God, or resent Him, or any such word you can think of. And I believe that 'sin' and 'virtue' are real, and I am not an advocate of sin, not least because of the material consequences of it. But I cannot find any other deeper point than 'to exist'. And I do not appreciate being told that "if 'x' was true, then 'y' would be true" and having my belief of God be brought into question because it disagrees with your particular Theology.

>>18993147
No, but I suppose a mass-suicide or 'voluntary mass ecintion event' includes anti-natalism by its definition. What I meant was, what is the material solution to the end of suffering? Why is suicide *not* the end of suffering? Because isn't Nihilism, in any of it's particular ice-cream flavours, trying to answer the question of suffering? I honestly don't know a lot about it, and this is a genuine question. I don't know about Ligotti, but you mention what he 'prefers' - but, his 'preference' is not real, not what is so - so, why doesn't he advocate what is practical? Does he provide the recipe for species-wide Ego Death?
I am not an advocate of suicide, I am a Buddhist, and I probably agree with Ligotti on a lot of points. But the reasons why I think suicide is an awful idea are Buddhist, in that it just end up turning a ceaseless wheel of suffering for you, for others that love you. I am interested to hear the arguments of people that do not believe in hell, or sin, away from suicide.

>>18993067
>accumulate good fuy brownie points
That's not at all how a Christian should view life. The point of Christianity isn't that this life is about getting the ticket to the afterlife amusement show or some dumb distortion like that. The point of Christianity is that you can enter into a relationship with that which is wholly other to you yet pervades and shapes everything, that you are loved by this being, even when you suffer unjustly, and that you can love always, that this itself, in repeating the creation of the world, is your eternal happiness. Only that what you give away is what will make you happy, in this life and for all eternity afterwards. Through giving you become a fully realized being, and this state of romance triumphs even over death. Christ becomes the possibility to attain this, for he reveals to you through going on the cross, that you are being a God, whenever you sacrifice, that itself is divinity, and heaven.

>>18993067
>>18993110
>>18993173
>>18993283
Ecclesiastes 4:1
>Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun: I saw the tears of the oppressed-- and they have no comforter; power was on the side of their oppressors-- and they have no comforter.
Ecclesiastes 4:2
>And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive.
Ecclesiastes 4:3
>But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun.

>>18992805
Dude. Read Mark’s gospel. Just drop everything and do it. Read all the words, take Jesus as he presents himself and what he says to who.

He says that he will die and rise again. They couldn’t find a body. He rose again. Now what?

Everything’s changed, dude. We don’t have to fear death, he defeated it. Just hear his Word and trust it as enough, as his disciples and millions since have done.

>>18993330
>And I saw that all labor and all achievement spring from man's envy of his neighbor. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

>>18992805
Camus wasn't a nihilist you dumb retard.

>>18993082
I mean, your parents had you because they felt like it, essentially, so it's not far-fetched that a "God" would create just 'cause.

For me, I think it definitely makes sense that the universe was made (intelligent design), but I treat whatever force that made it as just another natural force: powerful and detached. I believe in an impersonal, isolated creator who's really not too concerned with humans, if at all. If anything, actually, we're probably of no real notice to it, and honestly, that's probably the best scenario I can think of. I'd rather NOT have an omnipotent entity breathing down my neck.

>>18992905
What if believing the wrong God warrants damnation? Uh, bros?

>>18993268
I don't really care about antinatalist autism. I am a philosophical pessimist. I was reading Schopenhauer's essay on suicide the other day he said something like one commits suicide when the horrors of his life surpass the horrors of death. And then he mentioned one other thing he said that in every person who commits suicide there is a little spark of curiosity too, to check does death will change the state of things for him or is there is something beyond death?
And regarding Buddhism I would say if you take always the presupposition of reincarnation, its whole premise regarding suicide crumbles. And bringing suffering onto other people is huge question mark for many suicidal people who haven't committed suicide yet. I would say that most of them refrain from it due to this reason otherwise they would quickly end it all. But as Schopenhauer said it that when horrors of life outweighs the horrors of death. I would say the people who commit suicide are empathic too.

The greatest argument of pessimism against life is futility above all. And this desire machine of flesh and bone which we call body never allows us any satisfaction. For Ligotti emergence of Self was the greatest blunder of evolution and view consciousness as a disease so you can guess his worldview. All of these big pessimist philosophers like Schopenhauer, Mainländer, Cioran, Ligotti etc. are fans of ascetic Buddhism over any other religion. But their resignation for material world is so strong that they even reject Buddhism.

>>18993486
>And this desire machine of flesh and bone which we call body never allows us any satisfaction
Not him, but the point of desire itself is specifically to NOT be fulfilled, only yearned for. A life where you get absolutely everything that you want is miserable, there needs to be things out of your reach to keep you going.

>>18992905
Marcus Aurelius had a better wager, a non verminous one

>>18993497
Yes yes
Schopenhauer wrote about it

>Work, worry, toil, and trouble are certainly the lot of almost all throughout their lives. But if all desires were fulfilled as soon as they arose, how then would people occupy their lives and spend their time? Suppose the human race were removed to Utopia where everything grew automatically and pigeons flew about ready roasted; where everyone at once found his sweetheart and had no difficulty in keeping her; then people would die of boredom or hang themselves; or else they would fight, throttle, and murder one another and so cause themselves more suffering than is now laid upon them by nature.”

>>18992805
you'll realize nihilsm can't be refuted even if god/s exist, soon enough.

>>18993589
Honestly, nihilism is nowhere near as bad as the OTHER logical conclusion of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and proactive God's existence: Fatalism. Things would actually matter even LESS under those conditions.

>>18992818
>our goal is to become him?
Be GONE transhumanist SCUM!
"Iron shall NOT mix with miry clay"

>>18992805
Feelings are real

now either refute that statement or admit you are an ignorant little child peddling immature bullshit. Meaning is a metric that is and always has been based on feelings, feelings are real, therefore felt meaning is also real. Of course anything you say to try and counter this will be a performative contradiction since by doing anything at all you are yourself already proscribing meaning to your feelings since you feel that you should respond to me.

>>18993624
>felt meaning
not what this discussion is about retard

>>18993660
define meaning then

>>18993579
Would they though?

>>18993665
this conversation is about objective meaning, as a function of logic. felt meaning can always exist whether or not there is any objectively correct meaning because it is purely subjective. we are talking about whether or not there is an objective universal meaning of life

>>18993283
Pretty based

>>18993692
explain what the fuck "objective meaning" is. What is the requirement for something to be "objectively meaningful." Or if you can't do that you can explain why subjective meaning is somehow invalid, explain what outside force somehow invalidates any reason you might have for doing something that doesn't meet your nebulous concept of "objective meaning."

>>18993684
Yeah, they were living in such paradise during hunter gather times but then they invented civilization.

>>18992948
It wasn’t a Pascal’s wager argument. It’s not a rational decision. Rather, I’m suggesting that if there is no God, rationality is a complete non-factor so there may as well be God to you. There’s no compulsion for you to live life knowing there is no God not because it would be rational to pretend their is but because rationality goes out the window.

>>18993704
it means it is a literal universal truth, not just some subjective thing you decide for yourself. subjective meaning is invalid because its subjective, its literally not what nihilism is about

>>18993809
Why is subjective meaning not a literal universal truth at the time it is felt. Why can I not create literal universal truths out of the fact that we have subjective meanings, for example why can I not observe Love as something that exists because people experience it, and then say it is a universal truth that feeling love is good because of the fact that everybody wants to feel it and finds feeling it preferable to any other state including non-existence, and then say that because Love is good and people seek it out, it supplies meaning.

>>18993829
and further still even if Love WEREN'T a universal feeling among people and some people somehow do prefer non-existence to love, why can't I still say that at least I prefer it to non-existence and that I find it good therefore at least MY life is meaningful.

what is potentially cope is the strength of your soul and it's capacity to withstand degrees of chaos, unanswered questions, events beyond your control, etc. without strength or the drive to gain it, the mind beats around the bush. ultimately meaning, for practical human purposes, is one's subjective reason for hope, or faith. beyond that bound is speculation.
subjectivity is difficult to integrate, chaos numbs a certain countenance. its human nature to feel compulsion for objectivity but thats not for us to have in full. one who refuses to accept that WILL be forced to shut down until they begin to. to be concise: exclusively godly conditions must be met for what we all experience to exist, and it does, and so they are met, thus regardless of how you define god, it exists.

>>18993713
Oh okay, sorry, I didn't realise that proved that every single hunter gatherer would throttle and murder each other out of boredom for having reality seemingly bend to their will

>>18993829
>Why is subjective meaning not a literal universal truth
because it is fucking subjective, are you retarded?

>>18993886
the specifics of what the subjective meaning is about or what the reason are for may change, for example one person may live because he loves something and another because he enjoys doing something, but the fact that it exists is universal and true among everyone. and the claim of OP was that there is no point to anything and so far you haven't explained at all how subjective meaning is pointless just because it is "subjective" and not "objective," stupid terms that I am only even using to please you.

>>18993867
That's what they did to other tribes.

>>18992805
God exists more than we do.

>>18993913
your confusion stems from the fact that you literally dont seem to comprehend what we are talking about, and youre asking me to explain why black isnt white or wet isnt dry, subjective meaning is not objective meaning because those words mean literally the opposite things, they are literally not the same. i dont know what else you want from me?

>>18993964
god damn you are retarded I have offered plenty of arguments and you just keep saying "b-but they're different because... because they just are ok!!" exactly what I expect from people dumb enough to actually fall for the nihilism meme.

>>18993919
No they didn't, because it never happened - no tribe has ever been in such a position of endless plenty that they were driven insane by boredom, and had to commit murder - that entire situation suggests in and of itself that a 'want' of some kind that is not being addressed that endless roasted pigeons cannot satisfy, which is not the want of an adversary, or of a struggle, but of the want to not want - which would enable someone to sit cross-legged on the moon for all eternity, and not mind in the slightest.

>>18993979
subjective meaning cannot be objective meaning because subjective and objective are literally mutually exclusive. how do you not comprehend this? you are literally the dumbest human being i have ever encountered in my life

>>18992882
>not ever going to read
don't be incurious, anon, the world is full of fascinating wonderful things outside of our own minds. I read things I hate sometimes, and I think it helps.

>>18992864
camus in this work asks a fascinating question, then imo, fails to give a sufficient answer. i wonder how the "revolt of the flesh" takes place in the modern world, and if it's changed from what the author imagined in his own time. i wonder if the natural history of the wasted life really looks like.

>>18993913
>but the fact that it exists is universal and true among everyone
that isnt true though. it might be, but we cant prove it. we dont PROVABLY know, EXACTLY, why people live, why this all exists, what life is for, why were meant to experience love, etc. we can make certain logical inferences but we cant speak with real provably certainty on these kinds of things, and it is cope to say otherwise. thats when the discussion of whats "good" and "right" starts but its the same dead end. you must understand objectivity is a white rabbit that always runs away from you

>>18994028
you still haven't given any actual reasoning, I explained that subjective meaning can be taken as a universal, literal truth which is what you defined objective meaning is therefore subjective meaning supplies objective meaning.
>>18994036
well then how do you explain this>>18993843 what does it matter if universal meaning doesn't exist because some people have freakish mental illnesses or whatever if my life and most people's lives are still meaningful? I can just change the argument to "life has meaning for everyone who is able to experience meaning" and there is no problem.

>>18994052
>you still haven't given any actual reasoning
THE WORDS MEAN LITERALLY THE OPPOSITE THINGS, YOU CANNOT BE BOTH, THEY ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE, WHAT POSSIBLE OTHER REASONING COULD YOU REQUIRE?

>>18994069
it doesn't matter if they mean different things because one leads to the other

>>18993997
Bruh history is the conclusion of boredom.

>>18994082
objective literally means "not subjective", subject literally means "not objective"

i cannot stress enough how fucking asinine this conversation is

>>18993464
I didnt say it's far fetched. I said it's horrifying. And yes birth is just as existentially terrifying as death when you think about it.

>>18993545
I think that his wager was an unwise and prideful one. It is not man's position to morally evaluate God.
>>18993173
Wait, are you OP? Because if you are then what's the point of this thread? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I was just sharing my own perspective on the matter and my personal experience of what the logical conclusion of atheism/nihilism is.

>>18994095
are you fucking with me man? I was replying to this:
>Work, worry, toil, and trouble are certainly the lot of almost all throughout their lives. But if all desires were fulfilled as soon as they arose, how then would people occupy their lives and spend their time? Suppose the human race were removed to Utopia where everything grew automatically and pigeons flew about ready roasted; where everyone at once found his sweetheart and had no difficulty in keeping her; then people would die of boredom or hang themselves; or else they would fight, throttle, and murder one another and so cause themselves more suffering than is now laid upon them by nature.
My question was: would they actually do that, and is that what would actually happen if mankind was 'dropped into utopia'?
Why is 'boredom' neglected as something that need not be served in this so-called utopia of endlessly roasted pigeons - I suppose to illustrate a point - but, I question the idea that we would resort to murder if our needs were miraculously and reliably met. I don't know what would happen - but why should it be we are driven to madness?

>>18994052
as for >>18993843, say all that stuff as long as you want. thats what camus, the OP author writes about. imagining sisyphus, who is punished to push a rock up a hill all day, as happy, because he makes his own meaning of it. same with nietzche, god is dead and we killed him, now we have to decide these things for ourselves. peoples lives are meaningful, objectivity in fact might not matter to you, none of this it to invalidate those facts. however you cannot PROVE that life has meaning for all who are capable of experiencing it. be straight with me bro, no human can speak certainly about these kinds of topics, you see? it might be true! the logic can be perfectly sound from every angle! as 3D mortal humans we cannot possibly VALIDATE it, do you see now? We cannot determine anything as "objectively" true, that is why i said objectivity is a white rabbit that runs away from you. that is why i wrote this >>18993845 explaining how one's ability to integrate subjectivity and deal with the fact that nobody will ever really have MEANING with a capital M, is the next best thing, as you seem to agree with.

>>18994149
No, I'm not OP, and I actually did feel bad after I bit your head off. Just spiritual angst man. Sorry for being rude.

>>18993283
Yes that is certainly how a Christian would put it. But the way I see it, is that of there were an omnipresent, all powerful God that created everything the implications of that are terrifying. I was half joking in calling it a good guy brownie points game, and I recognize that isnt how a Christian would think of it, but the larger point stands that the Christian must cope with the realization that their entire existence is not really their own, but simply there for another. And with the belief an another world comes the necessary devaluation of this one, this life.

>>18994162
But the postulate is that it's true because it's experienced so all you have to do to prove it is true is experience it. Do you want some kind of mathematical proof of meaning? It can't be logically deduced from nothing because it's based on an a posteriori phenomenon. This is like saying you can't prove a priori that light act like both a particle and a wave, and obviously you can't because it's based on something that has to be observed, does that make physics wrong?

>>18993001
>>18993082
As skeptical as I am of Gnosticism it's the only philosophy I've found that adequately addresses both these problems.

Which God?

>>18994144
>uhhhh i'm too scared to die
>uhhhh i'm too scared to live
holy shit just stop thinking and live mate, your death will come eventually, so might as well play the game.

>>18994082
subjective meaning could only be an objective meaning if god himself made it so, which means real objective meaning of life cannot exist without god, thus nihilism

>>18994223
gnosticism is dumb, God created the universe because he saw that life is good. Obviously of course creating a world with good means it has to have bad too, but good is better than no good.

>>18994245
Mine! MINE IS THE RIGHT ONE!!!

>>18994207
philosophy has long tread these grounds. the argument now comes to the reliability of the human mind, and the physical restraints on our capacity to comprehend reality and also to receive knowledge in an impartial manner. descarte, hume, kant. at the end of the day, you cannot provably equate things that are experienced as true, as in fact, objectively true, as annoying as that is. let me clarify friend: things can be objectively true, that doesnt make them "Objective Truths", say, in the context of this discussion. "Objective Meaning", with a capital M, requires an "Objective Truth", which cannot exist to us.
>>Do you want some kind of mathematical proof of meaning? It can't be logically deduced from nothing
Pretty much. We can try our best to satisfy our minds, to where things SEEM like they make enough sense, but we'll never know. think of it this way: physics isn't wrong, but it potentially could be. a new experiment, a new discovery, COULD change the paradigm. now, it might be perfectly right as it is, and it won't ever be proven wrong, but the "book isn't closed", get it? it isn't a "done deal". nothing is a logical, ultimate, universal, "done deal" for human men, see?

>>18994207
>>18994407
and as I said before, you might not give a shit, thats totally cool. you dont have to concern yourself with it especially when it is unobtainable. this is why i said in my first post that chaos can numb a certain countenance, and make people shut down and lose their sense of meaning. some people impulsively give a shit. they NEED the security, they need to KNOW. but what they really need to gain strength of soul and learn to handle the unknown. the only thing that removes doubt is faith

>>18994246
I love life, but I also appreciate those that can take an honest look at the absurdity of our position & how little we actually know.

>>18994407
but you don't have to prove that your senses are correct because the argument is not "we experience it as meaningful therefore it is meaningful" but "it is meaningful because we experience it as meaningful." The only a posteriori claim being made here is that we experience things as meaningful, therefore you don't have to prove that our senses correctly interpret the world, just that our senses do interpret the world.

>>18994477
if your senses are incorrect, which is unverifiable, the inferences you draw are from incomplete data. thus, they are prone to potential counter example and not provably universally objective. the argument is "what is the ultimate, undeniable, indisputable, OBJECTIVE truth (or axiom for it) of which to derive meaning". idk how else to explain this to you man. philosophy is a playground for adult intellect, there is no answer, no conclusion to draw, we simply cannot know. we are all guessing based of what we have, surely you agree

>>18994640
again, your data isn't incomplete in this case because you aren't trying to draw data about the world but about the qualia of the sense experience itself which you do experience perfectly and if you don't then you don't experience it at all so there's no problem because you only care about what you experience in this case, you don't need to explain it to me I understand perfectly what you're saying, it's you who seem to have just ignored my point

>>18992805
the point to anything and everything is enjoyment. be lovely.

>>18992960
>consciousness evolved out of nothing in the universe
Consciousness IS the universe dummy.

>>18992805
>there still has not been an adequate refutation of nihilism.

1: I like things.
2: If I like things, there is value in the universe
Q.E.D. faggot.

>>18994685
>Consciousness IS the universe dummy.
Bruh, how so?

>>18994176
All good man. I understand your way of thinking, like there's always this question of why are we doing all this, why do we have to go through all this trouble. And we know God is great and we can see the merit of the teachings, but the question still remains. For me, I think the point of being here and suffering is to make us realise essential truths, that couldn't have been explained to us in any way than to suffer through certain things. Suffering forces us to look beyond the things of this world and to familiarize ourselves with the absolute and eternal truth ; something everlasting and unaffected by the material world.
Just my two cents. I hope you find peace.

>>18994672
the observation that life contains meaning and can be meaningful, while objectively true yes, is not the discussion here. we are trying to answer: is life meaningful, and do you know why? is it meant to be? what is meaning really? objectively and universally? is there one explanation to all this that every single person would have no choice but to agree with? we are trying to draw data about everything universally. idk im not a smart man my brain is getting burned out now, someone might haveto take the baton

>>18992877
>umteld too tousand yerz agu
are you really this uneducated?