/lit/ - Literature

>>18964176
>/lit/thread/18956501
I meant here >>18956501

Why doesn't lit just make its own publishing house? Problem solved

sneed

>>18964198
And who will come up with the millions to market the books?

>>18964203

>>18964176
What do you think about Nanowrimo? Anything good ever come from it?

>>18964176
>So this is what I'm talking about guys. The myth that these people didn't do what I'm talking about is very strange and unfounded. Pynchon, for example, got an MFA from Cornell, was heavily published in the student chronicles there, and (checking the wiki now) came out of that program with a bunch of other published authors who he was friends with like Richard Fariña, Kirkpatrick Sale and David Shetzline. There is almost always this kind of backstory for any author you can think of unless it's Henry Darger and his be-penised cherubs.

Based Henry Darger poster. Sometimes I think I wouldn't mind being a writer/painter like him; just minding my own business, creating my own world (demiurge-eske) and then dying in obscurity without EVER asking anyone their opinion about my damn work.
That guy is a weirdo hero, in many senses.

WE'RE ALL GONNA MAKE IT.
Penguin will launch our anon's collected shitposts.

>>18964176
God damn, you insufferable faggot, I hope you go and hang. Stange fruit piece of shit.

>>18964216
Dude, you're not just in the wrong ball park, you're in another dimension if you think the writing on that site is anywhere near pro level.

>>18964206
>And who will come up with the millions to market the books?
Hiroshi

Is it worthwhile checking out the top sellers even if your goal isn't to be in the NYT Best Sellers list? The Booker Prize list was recommended last thread and all the books from 2020 make me physically cringe just reading the descriptions

>>18964241
2020?
Try the entire last decade

>>18964206
I worked in publishing and a standard budget for fiction is only $1.00 in marketing for every gross copy they estimate they will sell.
It’s not hollywood, lol

>>18964241
C'mon, there are other stuff besides the obvious pol/ bait being published too.

>>18964230
Hey I was gonna let the thread die, someone asked me to continue it. I can bugger off if we're done with the subject.

>>18964241
No, i tried reading that shift for years. It’s all terrible and it just gets worse every year, your honestly better off getting recs here or looking on amazon

>>18964216
Lol, I think most people are smart enough to not mention it in their proposal letters

>>18964252
Please drop some names of non-/pol/bait top sellers, preferably ones that aren't biographies
Having some good books to reference would be very useful

>>18964257
Kind AgentAnon, don't mind the sour, rancorous faggots. The last thread was full of insight and I like your anecdotes. Don't listen to them

>>18964230
I'VE BEEN SITTING HERE WRITING MISTER AGENT
SO EARNESTLY
FOR JUST A "NO" OR JUST A "GOOD LUCK"
SAYING "MANUSCRIPT RETURNED HEREWITH"

>>18964320
The fault on stars, Invisible Cities or some other John Green's meme.
Da Vinci's Code.
50 Shades of Gray
Rich Daddy, Poor Daddy meme
and the list goes on.
If you wanna focus on that shit that's YOUR PROBLEM.

>>18964352
did you leave your cell, your pager, and your home phone at the bottom?

>>18964352
>he gets replies
better than me most the time Tbqh

>>18964176

>>18963992
Can you stick to industry information and lay off the life advice?

>>18964388
t. incel
touch grass

>>18964320
>>18964355
Also; Taleb, Game of Trannies, Based Racist Rowling.
Now get fucked and have fun.

>>18964388
This.
No one cares about your shitty life, faggot.

>>18964394
>>18964388
Well, I do. Shut up fags, let the man speak

>>18964394
wrong
conversely, no one cares what a bitter loser has to say

There's an alternative route if you wanna get published, which is essentially just recreating what happens in Wonderboys.

>Go to a university with a yearly literary event/festival type thing.
>Go to the dean's house.
>Steal Marilyn Monroe's jacket from his baseball memorabilia collection (it's important that one of your teachers is fucking the dean's wife, crucial detail)
>???
>Get a deal with a publisher at the end of the event.

>>18963199
even when you are nice and helpful to people who actually want to have a career, i think you miss the point of actual critics to this kind of approach to "life", not to literary world, but to life. if you can't see the phonyness, conscious social climbing, subtle and dirty competition, fakeness, and in general a lost of innocence, with all the cheesy, sentimental and pathetic notion that lost of innocence can be and in fact, it actually be. i think at least a portion of /lit/ users have this naive thinking about literature (and art and life) as a pure thing, as a pure personal transvision where the reader, the other, and the money are just a tiny part of it. and i think that your crudely pragmatist approach is air in their ears (it is in mine). if you want to make a career then your advices are good even if the only one you make is networking and going out and be smart. i think the undercurrent sour feelings about what you say is about the lifestyle that networking forces you to have, the kind of thinking it force you to think. also, the "modern solutions" you are talking about in the OP have to make all that notions of reading booker prize and this ferris wheel of university and publishing industry at least crumble a little and i dont see you pushing for it.

>>18964757
If you are too socially retarded to follow the advice, then how else might you possibly be published? Writing literature for art's sake is a cope. Stories are written to be read, not for the sake of writing. All this talk of purity in art is ridiculous. You want to write a book that won't be read by anyone? No one is stopping you.

>>18964962
I think there is merit to what the based schizo polack is saying though. You don't have to swallow the whole anal pill to gain rudimentary success.

>>18964962
Bro, even if you publish a successful fiction novel, you aren’t going to be some GRRM or Stephen King figure that lets you lord over an online fandom and pull rank on them like you wish you could on 4chan.
If you don’t like writing you shouldn’t do it; it’s not a shortcut to social currency.

>>18964251
How are books marketed?

how about a tripcode you nigger

>>18964206
Start small, dipshit. The real issue is hiring copyeditors and proofreaders, that, and nobody here has a good book

>>18965670
>nobody here has a good book
nice attitude for someone who wants to publish books from here.

>>18965212
Not even him, but I've published with a publishing house. They would offer advertising split out of my pay, which I would take, and then the chief would schedule some events in the province, usually just any sort of book conference, a handful of advance ARCs, a few podcasts, etc. It's all rather inexpensive aside from travel, but you're paying half out of pocket and your expected to make yourself available.

>>18965678
I do because I want to stick it to the faggots that have ruined the industry and the market and the medium.

>>18965692
alright whats your trannycord

>>18965702
I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not OP, but I would like to get involved in some capacity. I've done well in national short comps and I've done some editing. I would even like to get financially involved if there's good material and good people. I'm sick of faggots and women.

>>18965708
i know ur not OP dickbag
im asking for your trannycord to discuss further since OP has deserted

>>18965715
give me a minute. What's your username?

>>18965731
invite:
discord.gg (slash) VewdpvpE

>>18964206
>>18965670
>>18965678
>>18965692
>>18965702
>>18965708
>>18965715
>>18965731
>>18965740
Fuck that shit. If we really want to stick it to the faggots we need to go full on Ted mode.

>>18965762
Dear god, what have I done?

>>18965762
"Homosexuality and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race"

bump

>>18964355
>>18964391
are you being serious? YA lit, an airport novel from 15 years ago, and a self help book from 1997?

That shit is ancient history. You pitch your book to an agent as something that was popular 10 years ago and they'll laugh in your face. Do you have any current examples?

>>18964176
Hope you are still here. Don't listen to the haters, this is the first interesting thread on this board in months.

How much does having a social media following help you with getting published? I have 50k subs on Youtube (I'm not a booktuber). How would you recommend translating that to a publishing deal?

>>18964176
Okay. How valuable is a record of publishing stores in magazines. I've got my first one out there, but it's not like people go and buy lit mags, so I'm not sure if what I'm doing even supports getting a book published later

>>18964757
he's not even that much of a "crude pragmatist" anon. The big difference I can sense between him and most of the people responding to him is that he held an actual job. Anyone who spent a month or two in any working environment can give that sort of "insight" about life - which basically boils down to:
>don't be a toxic asshole
If you have never worked, it's hard to realize that basically 90% of any society is built on the premise that human beings collaborate with each other, and that this is more important than any individual competence, ingenuity and intellectual superiority you may (but most likely don't) have. When you assume someone, you first of all assume someone to work with: being capable of working together with others is the presupossition on which all your competences should be built. There is almost no work environment where you will not be requested to collaborate with others. Having basic social skills is not something you do for "conscious social climbing", it is the very base survival-level skill of any functioning human being and of human society in general. If you still think collaborating with other human beings is a "loss of innocence" or implies a "loss of purity" you are a child. Behind purity there is simply the desire of having things the way you want them all the time: doing what you want, when you want, how you want it. That's simply not possible. And you don't need to "grow up" or "compromise" or anything, you just need to get a job and you'll see. Teenagers, undergraduates and NEETs seethe mostly because they don't work.

(working any kind of job fucking sucks btw: this is not a praise of work. But stop confusing necessary things with evil things.)

>>18964176
What do you think about the idea of publishing a novel serially on Substack? What would need to go into the marketing for something like that?

>>18967398

based well-adjusted poster

>>18958052
Heh, that is exactly what McCarthy did. Dropped out of Uni in the 2nd year; worked as a mechanic writing his novel on the side and then mailed it to Random house because that was the only publisher he had heard of. Fortunately, Albert Erskine --Faulkner's longest serving editor-- campaigned for him to get published.

It still took 3 years and is likely absolutely impossible today for someone who doesn't have some network in the business.

>>18967398
Not everyone can or should collaborate. Some people have to make it on their own.

>>18967398
exactly. even joyce had to beg, steal and borrow his way through life
>>18967530
how exactly is one supposed to "make it on their own" in literature of all fields. it fucking revolves around contemplation, analysis, response, etc

>>18965794
>what do you get when you tell a bunch of incel shut-ins that their delusions of genius are wrong and they need to socialise effectively, stop hating women and jews, and read lots of contemporary fiction

>>18967578
>how
Similarly to Emily Dickinson.

If you haven't abandoned this place yet OP, can you give some tips for query letters? Or just some resources we can learn from?

>>18967594
Doing that just makes it harder for yourself, and I hope you are happy with never getting published in the 1000-1 chance of acclaim after your death. Or is that what you tell yourself
Nobody has perfect self knowledge - you might be making some basic mistakes without realising, which a fresh pair of eyes could spot and help you correct. Testing yourself against others and getting feedback is the best way to improve rather than relying purely on yourself.
If we consider other creative fields, say acting or playing the piano, you would never expect to get to the highest level just by sitting in a room alone - nobody is so self contained to hothouse themselves to greatness, you don't contain those kinds of multitudes.

>>18967633
It was a joke, and I'm surprised you wrote so much over it. But also, who cares? Like someone said earlier in the thread, if you like to write just to write, who cares if you get published? Yeah, exactly. That's why it was a joke. What good does it to Emily to be published after her death? She enjoyed writing. That's as good as anyone can get, to do what you enjoy, and enjoy what you do. No one should be writing as a career at this point. That's all getting automated.

>>18967645
Even if you only write for your own amusement, it would still be beneficial to engage with other writers, to get better at it, to get ideas, and mostly for fun
I can't imagine someone relentlessly practicing golf alone, until they're a pretty decent scratch player, but still refusing to play with other people. Wouldn't it be more fun to share an 18 with friends rather than doing it yourself? They might even help your putting

>>18967677
Different anon, but how if you can't find anyone IRL? Are writing discords and forums actually worth it?

>>18967645
>if you like to write just to write, who cares if you get published?
why the fuck are you in this thread then

i don't think anyone capable of writing a good book needs to ask for any advice

you people are tryhard idiots to listen to OP
and he sounds like a literal moron to my ears and eyes

>>18967677
I actually much prefer to play golf alone. If I could have the entire course to myself, that would be nice. Some of us don't like having to interact with people.

>>18967693
I wander around.

>>18967708
Try for a really early morning slot, sometimes you will be alone as the sun comes up, shadows in the bunker, dew on the fairway. Comfy as shit.
Is there a good golf novel?

>>18964176
You sound like everything wrong with contemporary lit agencies.

>>18967398
cringe
it is selling out when you have to hear about HER DAY and listen to egomaniacs ramble on and on and on
collaboration my ass
it's a solitary pursuit, end of

>>18967418
>Substack
whos the #MC in your #WIP on #NANOWRIMO
drop your #links #books #selfpromoshitday
ya dragon fantasy vampire
AS he walked into the room he nodded and said hello
she shivered and said hello.
he nodded. said hi. twisted around.
AS she told him about it she went over to the cupboard and opened the door.
i know. he nodded.

great novel dude random here we come

>>18964176
First thread was really good and informative, this one seems riddled with the regular blackpilled cancerposters, thus ruining it and making it to the regular shit throwing contest 99.9 % of the threads on here are.
Thank you for a good thread OP. The last one that is. You have been very informative and helpful, and you write better and make more sense than almost anyone on here.
Good luck with your career change!

what percentage of your agency was female? did this affect you or the work done there in any way?

>>18967848
I wanted to say the same. Thanks for making the thread OP, even if ti turned into bit of a shitshow once it got through to people that connections are useful.
You gave more info than most people could here.

>>18967860
he said the last thread he was the only male

>>18967398
>>don't be a toxic asshole
and what are you gonna do with toxic people?.

>>18968087
WHY AM I TAHXIC
WHY AM I POISONED
ACK ACK ACK

>>18968087
every woman in the workplace is vile and poisonous and insidious
yet they seem to get along just fine
why is that?

>>18968105
usually the people who define people as toxic are the real toxic people.

>>18968112
because they scare other women into not speaking up against them

>>18967398
i'm the polack schizo guy. and i gonna responde you with the beginning of winnesburg, ohio.
>In the bed the writer had a dream that was not a dream. As he grew somewhat sleepy but was still conscious, figures began to appear before his eyes. He imagined the young indescribable thing within himself was driving a long procession of figures before his eyes.

>You see the interest in all this lies in the figures that went before the eyes of the writer. They were all grotesques. All of the men and women the writer had ever known had become grotesques.

>The grotesques were not all horrible. Some were amusing, some almost beautiful, and one, a woman all drawn out of shape, hurt the old man by her grotesqueness. When she passed he made a noise like a small dog whimpering. Had you come into the room you might have supposed the old man had unpleasant dreams or perhaps indigestion.

>For an hour the procession of grotesques passed before the eyes of the old man, and then, although it was a painful thing to do, he crept out of bed and began to write. Some one of the grotesques had made a deep impression on his mind and he wanted to describe it.

>At his desk the writer worked for an hour. In the end he wrote a book which he called "The Book of the Grotesque." It was never published, but I saw it once and it made an indelible impression on my mind. The book had one central thought that is very strange and has always remained with me. By remembering it I have been able to understand many people and things that I was never able to understand before. The thought was involved but a simple statement of it would be something like this:

>That in the beginning when the world was young there were a great many thoughts but no such thing as a truth. Man made the truths himself and each truth was a composite of a great many vague thoughts. All about in the world were the truths and they were all beautiful.

>The old man had listed hundreds of the truths in his book. I will not try to tell you of all of them. There was the truth of virginity and the truth of passion, the truth of wealth and of poverty, of thrift and of profligacy, of carelessness and abandon. Hundreds and hundreds were the truths and they were all beautiful.

>And then the people came along. Each as he appeared snatched up one of the truths and some who were quite strong snatched up a dozen of them.

>It was the truths that made the people grotesques. The old man had quite an elaborate theory concerning the matter. It was his notion that the moment one of the people took one of the truths to himself, called it his truth, and tried to live his life by it, he became a grotesque and the truth he embraced became a falsehood.

(cont)

>>18968216
>You can see for yourself how the old man, who had spent all of his life writing and was filled with words, would write hundreds of pages concerning this matter. The subject would become so big in his mind that he himself would be in danger of becoming a grotesque. He didn't, I suppose, for the same reason that he never published the book. It was the young thing inside him that saved the old man.

>>18968216
interesting ideas but your writing has no rhythm
not bad for an ESL desu

>>18968271
I don't know if this is bait but Sherwood Anderson was not an ESL and is not, for sure, the guy who made that post.

my dream is to write a novel, self-publish it on amazon, do absolutely no marketing or other work whatsoever, forget i even published it for a while, then wake up and find out i've got a million quid in my bank account and my book is in the news as some word of mouth phenomenon, like tinkers.

>>18968317
i'm sure that's a super unique ambition in this industry dude

>>18968271
>/lit/

>>18968216
This sounds like a nice story, but again, I wasn't praising the fact that you must, to a certain extent, compromise with the fact that you must live with others - I was acknowledging it. One of the things I have personally been struggling with since I started working is how strong the pressure for me to "identify" with my career is. One really must make some extra effort to not see himself as "the x guy doing the x thing": people would want you to be the x guy because, if they know who you are, you are reliable and they can collaborate with you. Hence the pressure. But me, you and everyone else are infinitely more complex than the collaborative task we do in order to participate in society and afford food. This infinite complexity is the potentiality of unpredictable things we could do and become (including art), but only when you are young you are welcomed to be something "potentially", and to be, unpredictably, everything. As you grow up and participate in the social game with others - again, because it is necessary, not because we like it; because we all want to be alive and not spend our lives hunting or being hunted alone in the forest like animals - you are less and less allowed to be "potentially something". Others don't like you, if you are like that: you are not reliable, and collaborating with you comes with the extra burden of unpredictability. Poor people, NEETs, drug addicts, criminals and artists all fit in the category of the suspicious people with some sort of individualistic agenda others can't figure out, and people it is difficult to collaborate with. To keep the young thing inside you alive you just must keep yourself separated from what you do, and be open to change. This doesn't mean you won't accept a certain level of compromise with others, which is why being a self-sustaining hermit in the wood is a choice only very, very few people take.

>>18968336
>Poor people, NEETs, drug addicts, criminals and artists
>and artists
you are responding yourself, mate.

>>18964206
Couldn't you just manage it on Amazon and spread the word through organic means? All you'd really need is some Youtube/Twitch personality to promote it and you'd secure the Zoomie market (i.e. Free money). I think the fact that a board on 4chan actually produced something productive would be an interesting selling feature.

>>18968336
Very insightful post. Gets at the core concern much of us have here. It's not even about being a child who wants things their own way. It's that it's not even enough to work, you have to also become an NPC. Fuck that. I'd rather die on the street.

why are so many people angry in this thread

I'll be honest, I don't want to associate with these types of people because then they'll found out I say nigger and they'll try to have me lynched

>>18968489
because they're hot-blooded narcissists who all want the part of le heckin artiste, swinging their big quills, and they firmly believe that this entitlement is somehow cushioned by the fact that they're neets/loners, e-flagellating their way across the world wide web

>>18968537
>tfw you respond with angriness to why are people so angry?

>>18968572
but i am not angry

>>18968489
Same reason r9k get angry if you point out their lack of success with women is due mainly to their attitudes towards women, rather than any black pill/red pill stuff. They hated him because he told the truth

>>18968336
>To keep the young thing inside you alive you just must keep yourself separated from what you do, and be open to change.
reminds me of something gaddis wrote in a letter,
>Gass admires me because I’ve been able to stay out (till now), I admire him because he separates it all clearly & relaxedly in his head (‘my public & private selves haven’t even shaked hands for many years’);

>>18968216
I'm gonna send you some notes, you crazy Polack you.

>>18968608
yeah, an ivy leaguer with a million connections manages to keep it real, son I am proud
can totally relate

>>18968665
who is keeping what real? that quote suggested quite the opposite &what does any of that tripe (not being an ivy leaguer, not having connections) have to do with your ability to keep your public and private selves separated?

>>18968691
cheesehead it matters because if you are born with a silver spoon in your mouth you can get by making far less sacrifices of yourself because you already have the connections you need without groveling

>>18968711
>cheesehead it matters because if you are born with a silver spoon in your mouth you can get by making far less sacrifices of yourself because you already have the connections you need without groveling
again all of this is quite the opposite of the point (even ignoring that Gass most certainly wasnt a silver spoon case, only went to an ivy league for his PhD after attending two different unis in ohio between a stint in the military. none of this is out of reach for any anon here, which is something absolutely any anon could do if they cared enough) ; what don't you understand about keeping public and private selves SEPARATE? Gaddis, the "silver spoon" here, was precisely the one that didn't need to keep his selves separate, he didn't have to make sacrifices, which is why Gass envied him, while he envies Gass for doing it.

>>18968754
their names are too similar to expect me to treat them as two distinct entities
shoulda got a better name
not my problem

>>18968768
if you thought they were the same then what did u think that quote was about? a schizophrenic man relating an imaginary conversation he had with his tulpa?

>>18968797
epistolary samefag

>>18968488
I said that to myself too. Wait till you get to the point where you are actually about to die, or when people around you start dying because of poor life choices.

>>18968812
yeah but you are still on 4chan and not reddit/twitter

>>18968645
what kind of notes?

>>18969271
from the underground

>>18969311
fair enough

>>18968645
>>18968216
Ok, so I made some notes for you. Where I stop making notes is about where I would have dropped off if I had picked this out of the slush pile. Happy to discuss more, but there is enough wrong with this that I would have stopped here.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L1Wt73QPSrnvvGYwc_6GbI1m3hve1wyPEmNYuS1_xzg/edit?usp=sharing

>>18968112
Memes aside, I work in HR in tech and almost every woman on my team is lovely. A few bitches here and there, but mostly hard working and friendly.

The only God awful thing about working with women is when someone brings up reality TV. EVERY women in the world watches real housewives aparently. And when someone brings it up they start chatting endlessly about it

SPIT IT OUT janny

>>18969407
>https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L1Wt73QPSrnvvGYwc_6GbI1m3hve1wyPEmNYuS1_xzg/edit?usp=sharing
is this some kind of elaborated dumbjoke?.
"winnesburg, ohio" is a classic for fucks sake. im too naive for this multilayer of irony.

>>18969436
modern tastes brah
it helpful Tbh

>>18969448
it would be great that the ex-literary agent can be this retarded, but we dont have to force things. he is retarded in his own way.

>>18969407
this is not him, right?

>>18969528
It is.

>>18969436
That was my intention yeah - I think people took it literally.

>>18969432
DESU, I do agree with that. It's a meandering little cluster there.

You can imagine all kinds of classics being rejected this way
>There was no question of taking a walk that day.
>the opening sentence is utterly banal and has no drama, get to the point sooner, engage me
But it only goes to show further how essential contacts and referrals are. You can't rely on your talent

>>18969448
Yeah sorry I should be less cryptic since this seems to be a more cancerous thread than the previous. That's the shit you do day in, day out as an assistant. You basically can't spot a Sherwood when you see it in that environment. I had to do that for so much unpublished stuff, it was just fun to do it with something like that.

>>18969637
Yep, that's exactly what I'm trying to say.

>>18969407
based. that writing was shit.

now do it with moby dick
>Call me Ishmael. Some years ago—never mind how long precisely—having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world. It is a way I have of driving off the spleen and regulating the circulation. Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth; whenever it is a damp, drizzly November in my soul; whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people’s hats off—then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can. This is my substitute for pistol and ball. With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship. There is nothing surprising in this. If they but knew it, almost all men in their degree, some time or other, cherish very nearly the same feelings towards the ocean with me.

>>18964355
>Having some good books to reference would be very useful
I think that anon wanted emphasis on GOOD
not the steaming turd you listed

What was the email address OP made?

>>18969812
agentjannykun (at) gmail

>>18967348
It's a good question. Around like 2013 there was a huge trend of youtubers signing books deals after The Fault in Our Stars went triple platinum, some of those people even wrote fiction (presumably ghost-written). With very few exceptions, those books sold very poorly. So the pendulum swung back to not trusting youtube as a reliable marketing lever. I think if you're confident it's "on brand" for your youtube audience, and there is some evidence that that audience might buy a book, it can definitely help. But if these are two unrelated parts of your identity, I'm not sure it moves the needle.

>>18967848
Ayy, thanks brother. Much appreciated!

>>18967860
There was one other straight guy with me, and then the last original partner was a guy in his mid-80's. 2 gay agents. And then about 20-25 women. There would be an occasional straight male assistant or intern once in a while, but they never lasted long.

>>18969662
Aw man, I don't think I can. Melville's unquestionably got the goods.

>>18967383
It's very valuable. I think it increases your chances enormously of having a lit agent actually reach out to you, which is the version of the introduction which has a much higher likelihood of working out.

bump

>>18969615
>>18969637
>>18969646
it perturbs me the joyfulness and lightness while you say you would reject sherwood anderson in a blink.
>But it only goes to show further how essential contacts and referrals are. You can't rely on your talent
but how this can be something defendable?. i really dont understand how you or nobody can rely in a publishing industry that would reject winnesburg ohio. even when its not the perfect book, but... come on. you are all pretty cynical.

>>18971070
Right so what I was trying to demonstrate is the relationship someone in publishing might have to any manuscript. Every piece of great literature comes through the door as a wad of sniveling, pathetic manuscript like any other. Coverless, unbound, fatherless. We are there at ground zero for when that sad piece of shit manuscript evolves into the form of a book. And hopefully becomes a great book. But the grand illusion fades away if you spend enough time in those trenches. Nothing is sacred. If you're an agent, someone else's book is just that, someone else's book - a manuscript with a face lift.

>>18971185
>>18971070
And just to add. I don't work in publishing anymore, so I don't have to keep up the pretense that great authors don't slip through the cracks, and that the system is pretty clearly not optimized to locate and nurture great writers. There are some people who are really trying their best. But it's an impossible job.

Great writers struggle to land their work in competent hands. It's a truth of the world and the business. But it cuts both ways. If you look at it from the agent's side, it's easy to say you'd know a great future novel when you see one - but there's a reason so few people can make a living doing that. There's a term in the fine art industry called "The Gallery Effect" - which describes how art usually looks kinda dumb until it's hanging on an important wall somewhere. Same can be said of books, I think.

>>18971286
>There's a term in the fine art industry called "The Gallery Effect" - which describes how art usually looks kinda dumb until it's hanging on an important wall somewhere. Same can be said of books, I think.
this is just the allure of fame and authority. and this kind of thinking can end in thinking that only a good promotion and be part of the important walls is what makes the book, and that is the cynical part, the propagandist in you, the commercial publicist in you. what im trying to say is that your advices till now are based in this assumption. and i dont care a bit. people think im angry or something, but i prefer making winnesburg ohio and be rejected that fuck my head to get that allure and be part of that important walls.

So you're basically obliquely saying that agents are very shitty at their jobs, because they can't identify a good book

Got it

>>18971440
based schizo polack

>>18971440
There are no promotions in agencies, you are either an agent or you are not. I know you've come in here with a full quiver of preconceived notions, but I assure you, nothing you have said thus far has boarded on accurate or insightful. Sorry if that seems mean, but you're taking up a lot of space and you don't have a lot of information.

>>18971440
schizo polack, i like your points.
do you want to write together on discord?
i have a few good ideas.
t. writer anon

What is your opinion on literary prizes? Which one do you respect? Did your agency participate (sending writers, picking writers to publish, lobbying for winners or had dude in the committee)?

>>18971469
I'm saying good is relative. Things seem more good after they have been published. I've seen AMAZING books that never got published. Maybe it's hard to explain, but once you've seen how the sausage is made, it's not seen as sacrilege to redline a Sherwood Anderson story.

>>18971507
*bordered

>>18971509
i dont even have a discord or know how it works. im a schizo for a reason.

>>18971507
>There are no promotions in agencies
say the guy who think the only one thing important to make a career is networking and not talent.

>>18971598
in order to get promoted you have to go through a referral of another agent from a different agency. if you just apply for one you get thrown to the promotion slush pile and ignored for 8 months...

>>18971521
People do tend to really give a shit about awards. It's dumb, but there are a lot of professional advantages that come from winning. The big ones that people will get dressed up for and go to with their clients are:

Nobel Prize For Literature
The Pulitzer Prize
Man Booker Prize
National Book Award

There are a bunch of respected mid-level and international ones too, but if you win any of these you're probably gonna be a made man. But yeah, when your client doesn't win you talk shit about the other guy's client and their shitty book and who did they fuck to get that award. Good stuff like that.

>>18971598
Now you're just lying I guess. I wrote in no uncertain terms that talent was as important as anything else in the last thread... I'm sorry, with all of your browbeating about literary integrity, I would have assumed you would have higher ethical standards than to misrepresent what I've said this badly. Imagine my surprise.

>>18971663
>But it only goes to show further how essential contacts and referrals are. You can't rely on your talent
maybe that was not you. then you are right, you dont say explicitly that talent are not important. anyway you still think talent is not enough, at least that is something i can infer in all your points.

>>18971507
For anyone that is actually curious about this, it might be helpful to clarify. There is no exam or certificate that makes you an agent. Anyone here can call themselves an agent tomorrow, print some business cards, make a website, and poof, you have most of the ingredients necessary. No one gets promoted to agent at an agency, you just start figuring things out, and slowly building a roster of writers, and then slowly building relationships with like-minded editors. Then, suddenly, you're selling books. No one will be rooting for you, everyone has to make their own way in the agent world.

>>18971726
That wasn't me. Pic related was me. I'll accept your heartfelt apology whenever you're ready my crazy Polish friend.

>>18971740
As a writer how can I contact an agent?

Also how many agents can I contact?

And how to know if I can trust that agent with my work (how can I know they will actually try to do their best)?

I don’t know how good I am, though I’ve had professors praise my writing, and I’ve won a few contest.

If my writing is somewhat good will the agent tell me to get better and point me in the right direction, or would they just not respond back?

>>18964226
Very cool never heard of this guy. Is he any good?

>>18971860
lol

>>18971810
>As a writer how can I contact an agent?
you can't. they'll be in touch. or not.

>>18971878
Still waiting on that mea culpa you owe me. Only then can we be friends.

>>18971638
If I can win the next Nobel Prize for Literature, will finding an agent be easy? need fast answer plz

>>18964355

>>18971507
he meant promo for the book

Day 3 of polack skitz vs agent janny
it's still quiet out on the savannah this morning as we wait for one of them to make their move...

>>18971638
You could also add the Neustadt Prize and the Costa Book Awards for the UK and Ireland.

>>18973976
nice info
shame you need your book to be published to apply
and to be published you need an agent
and to get an agent you...

>>18974000
yeah, if only i could get an award for my unpublished book

>>18974072
fuck point is an award if youre already published

>>18974081
i don't know anon, reaching out to more people? which is the entire point of getting published (and arguably writing) in the first place

>>18974089
actually thats a good point lol

bump

>>18964176
You mentioned the surprising success of Knausgaard in the last thread, though most of the discussion has been about manuscripts in English, if not connected American authors. So how did you handle translations in your agency?

How long will the agent janny kun gmail be active?

>>18975448
It's still going strong. Got some good conversations going in there. Will keep it up for a while I think.

My perception is that the book publishing world is dominated by liberal women publishing books that appeal to other liberal women. EG, the handmaid's tale, and a lot of other less famous books by women authors exploring their feelings about how the world is so awful to women. Is that true, or is that just my bias because I see so many of those books prominently on display at bookstores? Is there a place for other stuff too? I'm not talking "red pilled" literature, but just books that would obviously appeal to men more, like Jack Kerouac or Bukowski or something like that.

>>18975728
Not him, but that is the general motion of the ocean. Even the Guardian has complained about it as much as they can without creating too much of a backlash. The thing is, it's not even just appealing to "liberal women" it's appealing to "white liberal women". POC have complained that the books that get published, even from their own authors, only really appeal to white women since the only stories they (white women) want to read involving POC involve suffering (racism/slavery/etc).

The article from the Guardian even pointed out that there was a year when only two books written by black men were published and one was a cook book.

OP is the best way to break into the writing field with no actual online following or built in fanbase through some other industry through getting short stories published and assuming the stories are well received then trying to get a book deal?

>>18964230
This

>>18975728
I think the political biases are more relevant when it comes to who wins awards or who gets talked about in think pieces, less so when it comes to actual sales. But the demographics of who actually buys books right now is overwhelmingly white and female. So it's sort of a chicken/egg situation in my opinion. Something like 80% of total book sales in the US will be white females (I'd need to check that again, but it was something in that ballpark).

>>18969407
Based retard for lying about his job and can’t even tell a famous book

>>18975811
ironic that the people who take the least from it buy the most

>>18969615
>That was my intention yeah - I think people took it literally
Pure cope. Go blow your browns out, parasite

Why are you retards still engaging with this lying Retard?

>>18975821
SPIT IT OUT, JANNY

>>18975828
This. Also he is hording manuscripts so don't be surprised when your shit gets stolen

>>18975828
Whether he is telling the truth or not doesn't matter. It's at least different from the usual shit post threads that inhabit /lit/ on a daily basis.

>>18975785
I do think this is the best way to do it. It's not easy to work your way up to the Paris Review or whatever, but one of the agents I worked with would pretty regularly reach out to people he liked who were published in those places to offer representation. No easy feat, but it's absolutely a path forward.

>>18975855
seems easier than making friends desu

>>18975862
Maybe, but it's still easier to get into literary periodicals with the friends.

i've got a great idea. i'm gonna become my own agent: concoct a fake identity, print up some business cards, new teeth, new shoes, start hanging out in literary circles, reluctantly explaining that i represent this amazing new but reclusive author

>>18975837
Aw man, I gotta love you guys. This is honestly an adorably optimistic thought. Not trying to be cruel, but I do wish you understood the true value of an unsolicited manuscript.

>>18975882
Do you have bad teeth?

>>18975894
no, but i gotta look like slick rick to pull this off

>>18975883
Hopefully, you come to appreciate the value of you putting a shotgun barrel in your mouth and pulling the trigger.

What is the most important physical destination a person with zero connections to the literary world should go to in order to "network"?

>>18975904
methinks somebody got a rejection letter in the mail today

>>18975913
I know this will not be received well, but I would say it's very beneficial to get an MFA. Another side door you can take into the business is to start ghost writing. There are a lot freelance gigs for that, and I've seen people come from that world, get an agent, and then start giving that agent their own work to represent.

how important is social media following nowadays?
I've heard agents online say that even if your manuscript if good if you don't have a big social media following you're way less likely to get published. is that true?

>>18975904
lmfao

Thanks for the tip, kind stranger!

>>18975855
is it worth bothering with small shitty journals just to say you've had things published, or is it only worth submitting to reputable places?

>>18975904
>>18975913
Some of you guys are all right. Dont come to Random House Tower tomorrow.

>>18975956
You got it, brother. Didn't expect free advice to be met with such hostility - but it's good to get the full 4chan experience.

>>18975964
Tomorrow is Saturday...

>>18975997
Right. I just wanted to make sure they're not forcing you to work on a weekend.

>>18975779
my plan is to write a debut which panders to that demographic and then when I've made a name for myself start writing elite literary fiction

>>18975997
he's just gonna murder-suicide himself

>>18975779
I almost feel like publishing in smaller countries that are not dominated by this might be better for literary fiction. I can't imagine Polish publishing to be like this for example.

>>18976033
writing in a tiny country is easier to get started anyway. if you're good you're more likely to be published as a big fish in a small pond, especially if you write in the native language

Gotta run out for a few hours. No one do anything crazy while I'm gone.

>>18975998
I'm looking at you, scary Saturday bomber boy.

>>18976033
>>18976044
yeah, i'm gunning to get a book published in my own language. from what i've read in this thread and elsewhere, the anglo–american literary establishment seems like a nightmare where only numbers count. i live in a pretty 'cucked' country (routinely made fun of online) but there's none of that diversity quota, sensitivity reader, netgalley focus group bullshit, plus publishers here seem much more likely to not only take a chance on literal whos but also let an author develop over time. and you can send your shit directly to houses big and small, little to no schmoozing required (+ small-ish publishers are treated as legitimately as the giants here, review-wise). troglodyte weirdo poets are rubbing shoulders with bestsellers. the only real threat seems to be big audiobook which is making huge gains, but i've got a great plot pitch up my sleeve, plus i'm writing 'for voice' as the gassman put it, so i'm not to worried about that bit

what i'm trying to say is i feel for ya anglos. keep fighting

>>18975811
How do you write books thatcan sell to that 20% or whatever of men who buy books? Or should I just not even try and write another female protag YA novel?

>>18976123
I think a lot about what language I should write in. The english market/audience is orders of magnitude larger than it is in my native language, but there's the disadvantages that we talked about in this thread. Of course language matters even more for the work itself. I know that writing something decent is even more of an uphill battle for an ESL writer, but since 90% of the books I read so far were in english, at this point it comes easier than writing in my mother language. I made a few attempts at writing in my mother language and the results were disappointing.

For now I write in english, but I'm thinking about a switch more and more.

>>18976185
write in English if you find that easier, then do your own translation into your mother tongue, and hit both markets at once

>>18976185
i started out in english as well, but the results read like a cruel joke. just awful. besides, i don't think random house are too big on unsolicited eurotrash. my chances are less than zero in that department. to counteract my wounded pride i'm keeping local/particular references and names to a tasteful minimum in order to maximize my chances of smooth future translations, which might be a cowardly thing to do but i'm not big on that cheap brand name synecdoche stuff anyway, it's chintz and clutter to me. my region also has a bit of clout in the international book world, which i'm hoping to get in on even though i'm not writing genre fic

you should probably just do what comes natural. after banging my head against english for a while there, crawling back to my mother tongue felt awkward and stilted, but it recovered rather quickly. reading books old and new helped as well. that's actually what gave me the true spark, picking up a debut novelist now and then: i'm no master, in fact i'm nobody, but this? i can do this. that competitive streak does wonders, and even if some days can be rollercoasters in terms of confidence i'm still looking forward to waking up and writing

>>18975882
So like JT Leroy?

>>18976285
fucc....................

>>18976276
Reading bad debut novels never really helped me. Instead of feeling like I'm at least as good as them, I come away hoping that I'm not as bad as they are without realizing. While it is comforting to know that even the worst trash can be published, I'm aiming for more.
>>18976198
I'm not sure I would ever want to translate my own work. I would either keep changing things, which would necessitate changing the other version that would spark other changes and so on and so on, or if one version was published, having to go through the whole thing without the ability to change details would be infuriating.
But the idea of knocking on two doors at once seems like a good one.

>>18975883
What is your opinion on "Agent Coach" Mark Malatesta?

>>18976338
i didn't say that the debuts i read were bad, necessarily. unremarkable at worst, and i walked away from many feeling that their authors had cool things ahead of them (this might be cope of the highest order, but i count not having attended the equivalent of a creative writing program as a strength). and i'm sure we all want to do our best, but i've also seen many a wunderkind fizzle out before life even began. how high are you aiming, exactly? assuming you're unpublished, how high *can* you aim if you've not yet decided which language to write in?

>>18976415
I don't mean that I want to debut with an instant classic doorstopper, but I want to write something better than "barely publishable", something that I like won't feel ashamed about. I just don't see the point of aiming for anything else. What am I even doing if I only want to be passable?

>>18976495
most writers today dont pass, that's why they get published

>>18976495
sure, i get ya now. we're on the same wavelength. apologies if i came off as a prick, it's just that people here talk so much trash about contemporary literature, as if it's all crap unless it gets taken up into the almighty canon the minute it leaves the printers. which is a curious way to behave for people who are otherwise so bothered about "classics"
i wish you all the luck in the world anon!

>>18976597
The thing that annoys me most on the board is the attitude to contemporary literature. Apparently the editors of Penguin Classics have infallible taste, and writers of the past were mighty wizards we cannot hope to emulate today, let alone surpass

>>18976616
most literature is shit, most popular literature is shit, and H.G. Wells was right when he said
>Ultimately there is no test of literary merit except survival, which is itself an index to majority opinion.
Contemporary literature, if it's at all popular, has at best only passed the smallest bump on the path to having any literary merit. Simply not enough time has passed, and there's way better shit I could be reading

>>18976616
It's easier to like older stuff because it's more or less already been curated. What has survived and is still being published has already been deemed quality. The shit writing from the past has disappeared. There is also a tremendous amount of books being published today and since we are alive to see it people are more inclined to think "contemporary books are awful/shit." when there were also shit books in the past. They also see what is being pushed and if they don't like it they assume all contemporary literature is bad by association.

>>18976632
>>18976631
I think its a backwards, uncreative attitude, like only listening to dadrock instead of something might tell you something new.
OK, if your only goal is reading for pleasure, nothing else, then stick to what you know; but it seems a very bad take if you want to do something creative which hasn't been done before.
You see the effects in threads here, with anons writing like they're in the 19th century, because they've cucked themselves into thinking that's what good writing sounds like.

>>18976667
That is a good point, many of us rarely read contemporary books, which is understandable, but for writing it may not be the best.

>>18964757

Networking always has had a glib superficiality to it, but it's been made much worse by the forced inclusion of women into industry and the creative arts. If there's a number of women in a school classroom, the entire tone and attitude changes to accommodate a perceived weakest link. Women aren't as good at abstract thought as men, and more importantly they do not take criticism well. The loss of standards has other factors, but seriously it really is just wahmen worship and the petty onanism ultimately tied to it. I mean, there used to be gentleman's clubs, sport and church events, etc which had a more sensible social atmosphere. Business networking has acquired this robotic or pseudo-psychopathic (larpy) atmosphere depending on the industry, most of the time it's robotic. Literary publishing is particularly in the toilet, even if you went to a top uni and had good connections I seriously doubt a work of serious literary merit would be recognized because there's a moralistic insistence on "inclusion" which is a euphemism for market appeal and appealing to blacks, wahmen, and common proles (the former reason is related to but still distinct from the latter reason). Basically, avoid writing unless you really mean to be creating entertainment or easy reading. Or pornography marketed to wahmen

>>18976768
it seems today
that all we read
is gay niggers in fiction
and women who bleed

...and when your native language is English but you live in a foreign country? But then, you wouldn't really wanna get into that Anglo-American literary world anyway. Pity there isn't much (well known) expatriate publishing going on. Both Ulysses and Watt (Merlin/Olympia Press) - while one might consider the Irish already as anglophone writers that are (were) other - were published in Paris, for example.

Can I get published in a foreign country if I'm American? I don't really feel like white women pandering

bump

>>18976667
Just an observation and I have noticed that I am sorely lacking in books written during my lifetime, which is why I added that as a category for my reading order. Poetry > Non-Fiction (usually history) > Contemporary Lit > Philosophy > Classic Lit

Waiting for you to come back, OP