/lit/ - Literature

>>18919895
>non sexual
Pic unrelated it seems

>>18919895
>non sexual

>>18919909
>>18919934
Hmmm, do you think that the Caska rape can be considered cuckoldry and therefore a sexual connection between them? Sounds stretched to me.

Achilles and Patroclus

>>18919895
Achilles and Patroclus :)

>>18920097
>>18920099
Who tells them?

>>18919895
Elektra and Orestes

>>18920116
go back to twitter, homo

>>18920091
Well sure, but Griffith and Guys have a sexual chemistry to them as well. Or at least they did in the Golden Age arc.

>>18920140
I honestly don't remember this, at least definitely not reciprocated. Griffiths only seems gay because he has long hair, is refined and a bit feminine. But he's also a military leader, a social climber and a "god" so to speak, not exactly a random cocksucker.
>>18920133
>t-twitter! h-homo!
>Very different was the reward of the true love of Achilles towards his lover Patroclus--his lover and not his love (the notion that Patroclus was the beloved one is a foolish error into which Aeschylus has fallen, for Achilles was surely the fairer of the two, fairer also than all the other heroes; and, as Homer informs us, he was still beardless, and younger far). And greatly as the gods honour the virtue of love, still the return of love on the part of the beloved to the lover is more admired and valued and rewarded by them, for the lover is more divine; because he is inspired by God. Now Achilles was quite aware, for he had been told by his mother, that he might avoid death and return home, and live to a good old age, if he abstained from slaying Hector. Nevertheless he gave his life to revenge his friend, and dared to die, not only in his defence, but after he was dead. Wherefore the gods honoured him even above Alcestis, and sent him to the Islands of the Blest. These are my reasons for affirming that Love is the eldest and noblest and mightiest of the gods; and the chiefest author and giver of virtue in life, and of happiness after death.
Plato - Symposium

>>18920308
>he listens to what Socrates and Plato have to say about Homer

>>18919895
>non sexual
>"Care to join me Gutsu?"

>>18920318
>moving the goalpost
I love that pic btw. Do you remember her name?

>>18920328
listening to Plato and Socrates about ancient Greece is like listening to a twitch streamer about modern America.
and no sorry nice pic tho

>>18920371
kek

>>18919909
>>18919934
>>18920325
>>18919895
If you think Griffith and Guts' relationship is in any way homosexual your mind has been poisoned. Unironically. There is nothing gay about these two men.
>but muh gay sex!
Guts and Griffith were legitimately both traumatized because of it. They aren't anything like you, faggot niggers. Fags like you have poisoned male friendship so completely that the two splashing water all over each other is literally seen as flirtatious. Fucking pathetic.

>>18920485
"I rather enjoying settling things by force" and "Now you belong to me" don't read as blatant innuendo? What is subtlety anymore?

>>18920485
I remember Guts being raped but not Griffith (it's been a long time since I read Berserk)
>male friendship
I wouldn't exactly call their relationship "friendship", though. It's complex, there's a part of victim/saviour, teacher/student, rivalry, leader/lone wolf... A lot more than just "male friendship" (and I'm not talking about sexuality, which I think it's barely present if at all)
>two splashing water all over each other is literally seen as flirtatious
They splashed water on each other? Completely forgot this part too

>>18920501
>Griffith's ambitious nature means he wants to give Guts a blowjob
Grow up.

>>18920485
I always read it as Guts being blind to Griffith's advances because of his trauma. Him completely ignoring that Griffith is A. a fag and B. has an enormous hard-on for him, is almost childlike.

>>18920501
Griffith sees anyone as belonging to him, or as tools he can use and then discard. Sure, Gatsu is the sharpest tool he has, in every sense. But you wouldn't say that Griffith had sexual impulses towards Pipin or Judo (even if he sacrificed them for his own pleasure without giving it a second thought)

>>18920506
>I remember Guts being raped but not Griffith (it's been a long time since I read Berserk)
Griffith sold his body for money to finance his army.
>I wouldn't exactly call their relationship "friendship", though. It's complex
I agree, it's many things, but none of them are as simple as homosex which is what fags try and reduce everything to.
>They splashed water on each other? Completely forgot this part too
Yeah, it was early on, they set up camp within some fortified walls, it was after Guts and Judeau have their first talk.

>>18920527
>>18920516
>>18920515
>>18920510
>>18920506
go back to wherever you came from faggots this is not literature.

>>18920515
He fucked that cute princess though. She was virgin, even. Sure, she's just another step to climb the ladder. But I don't think he didn't enjoy it either.

>>18920549
I honestly don't think he enjoyed it at all, but this doesn't mean he's gay. I'm pretty sure he just doesn't feel sexual attraction in general, and the only person he truly respected in life was Guts because he was his equal.

>>18920527
>Griffith sold his body for money to finance his army.
Now that you mention it maybe I vaguely remember. But it wasn't really shown, was it? Only implied, and then Griffith casually says "Yeah, I did it for the money", as if it wasn't a big deal, just a job that needs to be done.
>but none of them are as simple as homosex
Yeah, in fact I wasn't the one arguing in favour of their same sex attraction
>Yeah, it was early on, they set up camp within some fortified walls,
Got it. I mean, who has never thrown some water on a friend when you were a kid?
>>18920534
Learn how to use punctuation. Then, and only then, you may be allowed to speak your mind.

>>18920561
>I'm pretty sure he just doesn't feel sexual attraction in general,
What's the saying? "Everything is about sex. Except sex. Sex is about power". And for Phemto everything s about power indeed.
>the only person he truly respected in life was Guts because he was his equal.
Not so sure about the "equal" part. For him to consider someone his equal would mean ruin the whole point of his life. Let's say "almost".
>I honestly don't think he enjoyed it at all, but this doesn't mean he's gay
You're probably right after all. Griffith does not seem to have normal human feelings, only ambition. He's good at faking them though (which is a fundamental part of charisma / a technique to achieve what he aspire to)

>>18920565
>Now that you mention it maybe I vaguely remember. But it wasn't really shown, was it? Only implied, and then Griffith casually says "Yeah, I did it for the money", as if it wasn't a big deal, just a job that needs to be done.
We're only shown him with the noble from a balcony, Casca caught sight of the two standing there. The following morning she saw Griffith ripping the skin off his arms because he was clearly ashamed although he justified it because it was for the army. Later on he kills that same politician and shows no emotion whatsoever. I think there's a solid case for Griffith being somewhat asexual or at least his ambition being so strong that it makes desires of the flesh minuscule, the only one having distracted him was Guts because he saw him as an equal, someone who doesn't need anyone else, who was fine on his own. Casca calling him a mad dog early on highlights this.

>>18920515
yeah, same

>>18920308
Plato was the original twitter homo

>>18920485

Don't care. They make good yaoi together.

>>18920485
>>18919895

Just so you know, Griffith and Guts were inspired by Andre and Oscar from Versailles no Bara, they were also inspired by Ryo (Satan) and Akira, and lastly by Serge Battou and Gilbert Cocteau, the range of the relationship between these characters goes from heterosexual relationship to homosexual relationships, to one sided love.
If there is anyone that thinks that Guts' and Griffith's relationship isn't even slightly homosexual in nature you are delusional, I seriously doubt that if you wrote a letter to Miura when he was alive he would have denied it.

>>18921298
>Shitgeki

>>18920534
Anime website.

These two blokes.

rhosencrantz and gildenstern?
the two dudes waiting for godot

>>18920097
>>18920099
>>18920133
>>18920371
>>18921192
>Chariton aligned himself with one of the two trends of interpretation existing in antiquity, the view shared by Aeschylus, Plato, and Aeschines. Some later allusions in Zenodotus of Ephesus, Theocritus, Martial, Meleager, Pseudo-Lucian and Plutarch agree in presenting the relationship between the heroes as homosexual.
>There was, however, a contrary trend which represented Achilles and Patroclus as mere friends. The most important proponent of this view was Xenophon, who put in Socrates' mouth the opinion that the friendship between Achilles and Patroclus was not erotic in character. This interpretative line was continued by Bion of Smyrna, Dio Chrysostom, Lucian, Plutarch, Themistius, and Libanius.
Hmmmm I think I'm gonna have to side with Aeschylus and Plato on this one bros...

>>18919895
It's sexual too, but not as sexual as people make it out to be. Griffith literally thought about Guts the entire time he was fucking Charlotte. Really their relationship can be simplified into
Griffith lives in Guts' head rent free because of his unrelenting ambition
Guts lives rent free in Griffith's head because Guts' role in Griffith's life had changed from tool to equal friend, but that caused cognitive dissonance so Griffith ignored it.
Griffith does everything he can to make sure he lives in Guts' head and then acts like he doesn't care about him anymore.

>>18919895
Wotan and Brunnhilde.

>>18919895
Griffith rapes Guts' pregnant almost-wife
> non sexual character relationships

>>18921360
>If there is anyone that thinks that Guts' and Griffith's relationship isn't even slightly homosexual in nature you are delusional
I'm not saying it is completely absent, but as I mentioned here>>18920506 there are MANY sides to their relationship, it's not just "They're closeted fags who want to fuck but too scared to admit it"
>>18921606
>%&$ does everything they can to make sure they lives in @#] head and then acts like they doesn't care about them anymore.
Literally my crush and me

>>18920501
I don't think you understood the story. Go watch/read it again without your gay projections.

>>18922926
>there are MANY sides to their relationship, it's not just "They're closeted fags who want to fuck but too scared to admit it"
I agree.

>>18919895
marlow and kurtz

>>18920308
>Very different was the reward of the true love of Achilles towards his lover Patroclus--his lover and not his love (the notion that Patroclus was the beloved one is a foolish error into which Aeschylus has fallen, for Achilles was surely the fairer of the two, fairer also than all the other heroes; and, as Homer informs us, he was still beardless, and younger far). And greatly as the gods honour the virtue of love, still the return of love on the part of the beloved to the lover is more admired and valued and rewarded by them, for the lover is more divine; because he is inspired by God. Now Achilles was quite aware, for he had been told by his mother, that he might avoid death and return home, and live to a good old age, if he abstained from slaying Hector. Nevertheless he gave his life to revenge his friend, and dared to die, not only in his defence, but after he was dead. Wherefore the gods honoured him even above Alcestis, and sent him to the Islands of the Blest. These are my reasons for affirming that Love is the eldest and noblest and mightiest of the gods; and the chiefest author and giver of virtue in life, and of happiness after death.


Where's the gay sex?

>>18919895
Mappo and Icarium

>>18923268
He is saying that they were in a pederastic relationship (and disagrees with Aeschylus on which was the older 'lover' and which the younger 'beloved' -- pointing out that since Achilles was pretty and beardless, he must have been the one 'beloved').

>>18923268
What >>18923314 said. It's implied in the lexic they're using

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_and_Patroclus#Classical_views_in_antiquity

>In Athens, the relationship was often viewed as being loving and pederastic.[8] The Greek custom of paiderasteia between members of the same-sex, typically men, was a political, intellectual, and sometimes sexual relationship.[9] Its ideal structure consisted of an older erastes (lover, protector), and a younger eromenos (the beloved). The age difference between partners and their respective roles (either active or passive) was considered to be a key feature.[10] Writers that assumed a pederastic relationship between Achilles and Patroclus, such as Plato and Aeschylus, were then faced with a problem of deciding who must be older and play the role of the erastes.


>In Plato's Symposium, written c. 385 BC, the speaker Phaedrus holds up Achilles and Patroclus as an example of divinely approved lovers. Phaedrus argues that Aeschylus erred in claiming Achilles was the erastes because Achilles was more beautiful and youthful than Patroclus (characteristics of the eromenos) as well as more noble and skilled in battle (characteristics of the erastes).[15][16] Instead, Phaedrus suggests that Achilles is the eromenos whose reverence of his erastes, Patroclus, was so great that he would be willing to die to avenge him.

>>18920485
God you sound like a retarded faggot. Did you even read Berserk? They are obviously beyond there mere platonic friendships dumb nigger.

>homos destroyed male friendship
What kind of an asinine statement is this lmfao, stop browsing /pol/ you subhuman faggot.

>>18921473
because you want to
so much scholarship on ancient Greece is seeing what you want to see (faggotry)

>>18923848
No, only about half of it. The other half being the correct one.

>>18923848
meds
>>18923858
Let's see this "other half"

>>18923862
literally in the post I was replying to
again seeing only what you want to see
fagtards everybody

>>18923910
? Pretty sure the "scholarship" doesn't make any dogmatic claims about the nature of Achilles and Patroclus' relationship in Homer and just describes what Greeks thought about it, with occasional speculations about whether anything resembling that would have existed in Homer's time.

>>18919895
>non sexual
Hmmm

>>18919909
Came here to say this.

>>18920549
>He fucked that cute princess though. She was virgin, even. Sure, she's just another step to climb the ladder. But I don't think he didn't enjoy it either.
Just re-read it, during the act, griffith thinks about guts. After the intercourse, he is shown highly depressed, sitting on the bed, even scratching his own skin.
It's clear he didn't like it.
Also reminder that he had a literal hotty, Casca, running after him the whole time. Sure, you can compartmentalize work and love, or be in love with someone else, and that's exactly the point: he is in love with guts.

>>18923182
Guts is not a fag. He truly loved Casca, and having sex with her. Griffith, on the other hand...

>>18924422
>Just re-read it, during the act, griffith thinks about guts. After the intercourse, he is shown highly depressed, sitting on the bed, even scratching his own skin.
>It's clear he didn't like it.
As I said, I read that a long time ago, i don't remember all subtleties. And desu it would make me sad to reopen the volumes and reread them, for various reasons. I trust what you are saying of course.
>>18924450
>He truly loved Casca, and having sex with her.
I think that, again, here the thing is more complicated than "Guts loves Caska". I think he (tries to) rape her when she's demented, and even when she was normal, it was very much a "hunt", "biting", "fight", sexual/romantic relationship.

There was this girl who often bit me, and I bit her back too, never let me kiss her. This sounds crazy, I know, but I think her bf noticed a mark on her skin and she casually told him I did that.
That girl is fucking mental, I wish this was a LARP, I really do.
Anyway, back to Berserk: Caska and Guts is not exactly a "Love Story", it is, but not just your average one.

>>18924523
Based anon giving a hickey to some dude’s gf

>>18919895
Myshkin and Nastasya in The Idiot
Sensei in Kokoro

>>18920485
>he thinks relationship is only between two lovers.

>>18920534
>not liking manga

>>18919895
Both Griffith and Guts were huge fags, and that's a good thig!

>>18919895

>>18924523
>There was this girl who often bit me, and I bit her back too, never let me kiss her. This sounds crazy, I know, but I think her bf noticed a mark on her skin and she casually told him I did that.
>That girl is fucking mental, I wish this was a LARP, I really do.
I had one like this as well. It's been a few years she isn't from the living. It's called borderline personality disorder.

>>18926879
My deepest condolences.
In her case it's bipolar disorder, though.