/lit/ - Literature

>>18870258

>>18870258
start with Crowley

>>18870273
Oh god, fuck off retard

>>18870258
Magical practice is bullshit, the best you can do is push till you go psychotic, you will be admitted to the mental ward and it will take you 1-2 weeks to recover. After that you realize you wasted your time only because you're too scared to approach women and wanted to use your magical 'powers' to make them approach you.

>>18870334
Seethe and project harder, incel

>>18870258
>evola
lmao

Ceremonial Magic & The Powerof Evocation- Joseph C. Lisiewski
Maybe...He's pretty edgy and is shitting on other magicians, in the first half of the book which I liked. The other half are the actual rituals and stuff like that, which I didn't read fully. But they soubded pretty easy. At least you don't need to kill a virgin donkey or cock in your basement. As far as I remember

when did /lit/ get overrun with /x/-tier schizo bullshit?

>>18870609
Last year

>It is fit that we who endeavour to rise to an elevation so sublime, should study first to leave behind carnal affections, the frailty of the senses, the passions that belong to matter; secondly, to learn by what means we may ascend to the climax of pure intellect, united with the powers above, without which never can we gain the lore of secret things, nor the magic that effects true wonders.

—Trithemius of Spanheim, On Secret Things and Secret Spirits

>But first, to penetrate this barrier, the soul with which you listen must be sharpened by intense enthusiasm, purified from all earthlier desires. Not without reason have the so-styled magicians, in all lands and times, insisted on chastity and abstemious reverie as the communicants of inspiration. When thus prepared, science can be brought to aid it; the sight itself may be rendered more subtle, the nerves more acute, the spirit more alive and outward, and the element itself—the air, the space—may be made, by certain secrets of the higher chemistry, more palpable and clear. And this, too, is not magic, as the credulous call it; as I have so often said before, magic (or science that violates Nature) exists not: it is but the science by which Nature can be controlled.”

— Edward Bulwer-Lytton, Zanoni

>Magic, or rather Wisdom, is the evolved knowledge of the potencies of man’s interior being; which forces are Divine emanations, as intuition is the perception of their origin, and initiation our induction into that knowledge.

—A. Wilder

>>18870640
Magicians
>“They are without fears and without desires, dominated by no falsehood, sharing no error, loving without illusion, suffering without impatience, reposing in the quietude of eternal thought… a Magus cannot be ignorant, for magic implies superiority, mastership, majority, and majority signifies emancipation by knowledge. The Magus welcomes pleasure, accepts wealth, deserves honour, but is never the slave of one of them; he knows how to be poor, to abstain, and to suffer; he endures oblivion willingly because he is lord of his own happiness, and expects or fears nothing from the caprice of fortune. He can love without being beloved; he can create imperishable treasures, and exalt himself above the level of honours or the prizes of the lottery. He possesses that which he seeks, namely, profound peace. He regrets nothing which must end, but remembers with satisfaction that he has met with good in all. His hope is a certitude, for he knows that good is eternal and evil transitory. He enjoys solitude, but does not fly the society of man; he is a child with children, joyous with the young, staid with the old, patient with the foolish, happy with the wise. He smiles with all who smile, and mourns with all who weep; applauding strength, he is yet indulgent to weakness; offending no one, he has himself no need to pardon, for he never thinks himself offended; he pities those who misconceive him, and seeks an opportunity to serve them; by the force of kindness only does he avenge himself on the ungrateful…”

— Eliphas Lévi, The Threshold of Magical Science

you're a wizard 'arry

>>18870609
natural continuation from evola guenon edgy teens into schizophrenia when unable to let go of their idiocy

>>18870683
>The condition of Ignorance is so wretched, that notwithstanding she is neither fair, good, nor wise, yet she thinks she has no need of any kind of amendment or improvement. So that the ignorant, not imagining themselves in need, neither seek nor desire that which they think they want not.
Plato, Symposium

I'm currently reading a practical hermetic Qabbalah book and I'm not too comfortable with the rituals that involve Hebrew letters, devotion to Yahweh and so on, is there such a thing as Qabbalah without such callbacks to Judaism or am I going to have to deal with it?

>>18870733
You're asking for a car without wheels or a PC without a CPU mate

>>18870742
Figured. That's too bad because the Qabbalistic system as a whole is great and feels so intuitive but larping as a Jew just makes me uncomfortable.
Should I stick with it anyway or seek another system? The issue is aside from Tibetan Tantra all other systems are lacking, and Vajrayana is really hard to practice on your own, there are no books on the subject at least not as many as for hermeticism.

>>18870707
when are you going to fly on a broom and do super anime powers on your journey how to put on this enlightening fedora

when you turn 30 and you're still a virgin you turn into a wizard

>>18870683
>>18870609
>>18870514
>>18870334
shudra hylics, sad, many such cases

Many such cases. Put down the books and go breathe some fresh air you autistic losers.

Is anyone going to actually address the OP?

>>18870972
Yes. Men realized women always end up winning through emotional manipulation and so copied that and thus philosophy is born.

>>18871072
>How good is this as a practical, step-by-step guide to spiritual advancement through the use of western esoteric (hermetic, qabalistic) techniques?
>comes to /lit/ to ask questions about books
How are we supposed to know faggot? We don't read books

>>18870972
Theorycels exposed

>>18871072
Ok I will. Imho, it's not really practical as a step-by-step guide, especially not for the modern man.

Although there is a sequence of lessons that seem to connect to each other, there are too many missing steps and a lot is left to the insight of the student.

My feeling is that they want you to have the first experiences so that then you can either find a teacher and let him take you from that point onward, or discover that you are one of the few exceptional spirits for which those instructions are enough, and can bring themselves from those first awakenings all the way to initiation.

Also, it has nothing to do with hermetic qabala. It is literally never even mentioned in the three books.

>>18871503
Would you say it can function as a manual for self initiation then?
Do you know of any other books that might have a more practical focus, or a more structured and exhaustive one rather?
>it has nothing to do with hermetic qabala
What system does it use?

>>18870650
Literally ye olde Sigma Male

>>18870823
>WrathOfCuck
But why?

>>18871603
>Would you say it can function as a manual for self initiation then?

Only for few lucky people. For anyone else, it can even be dangerous, for the simple reason that they are genuine, powerful operations - not the kind of guided visualization that you can find in other books of 'magic' and 'rituals'. Evola himself (and other members of the group) warn about the dangers in many places.

>What system does it use?

It's not based on a codified monolithic system, and the different contributors belong to different traditions. Most of it (especially the first connected lessons that you could take as a sort of self-initiation plan) is based on alchemy symbolism and operations - the sort of techniques described in Evola's book 'The hermetic tradition'.

>>18871754
>Only for few lucky people.
Did it work for you?
>guided visualizations
Are those completely ineffective?

>>18870272
is this from Introduction to Magic?

>>18871915
>Did it work for you?

It didn't make an initiate out of me. It opened up some experiences to me, but fucked me up in some other way. I won't go into details because they are very personal.

>Are those completely ineffective?

Not at all. Images can be very powerful, and their use is explored in some chapters of the UR book. But in most books, watered down visualizations and powerless ritual gestures are used like a surrogate for real work.

>>18871999
>It didn't make an initiate out of me.
Do you think any book that claims to be able to lead to self initiation is bullshit?
>surrogate for real work
I'm not after experiences or powers, I want to cross the threshold and guarantee that I don't dissolve after death. So I'm looking for resources that will help me with this.

Thoughts on this?
As well as Franz Bardon and Israel Regardie?

>>18872098
>Do you think any book that claims to be able to lead to self initiation is bullshit?

I really hope not. And after all, at least someone in history must have self-initiated.

>>18872199
Well here's one >>18872121, I skimmed it today and some of the exercises seem to be the kind of visualization you're talking about but the author says they're supposed to lead to direct experience of higher realms and mystical states. Strangely enough he also says that the construction of the light body, in order to survive death, is not that difficult but that caution is required in order to maintain control over it and not become psychotic.
The book makes it seem relatively attainable so I'm hoping the author isn't a charlatan.

>>18870258
>>18870272
Don't know a thing about Evola except that he is a fascist writer. Did he write a lot of things about magic? In Italian or another language? Was he inspired by the Crowley craze in the beginning of the last century?

>>18872320
Look up the Traditionalists

>>18870733
There are books like that. For example The Celtic Golden Dawn by John Michael Greer uses the basic Golden Dawn system but with a Welsh druid theme instead of the Hebrew. I also found a blogger who designed a Greek pagan Qabalah called "mathesis"
https://digitalambler.com/category/mathesis/
And I found this as well
https://www.crcsite.org/kabala/greek-kabala-part1/
But if you don't know what you're doing it's probably best to just pick a self-initiation book and work through it first

>>18872355
Are Golden Dawn techniques legit?
Thanks for the resources, I'll take a look. You're right that I should probably stick to a rigorous system while starting out but it's hard to tell if something is a waste of time or not without already being experienced.

>>18870258
okay what fucked up shit happened in your life to make you put your belief in some made up magic shit, is this your only form of hope now? kek

>>18872516
>>18870357

>>18872320
He wasn't a fascist

>>18872444
As far as I know the Golden Dawn was the most popular system of Hermetic Qabalah, and it formed the basis of everything from Thelema to Wicca. So it's at least as legit as anything else in this area.
But yeah it is hard to know where to start, and I don't have the experience either. My biased suggestion would be to start with John Michael Greer, just because I'm a fan of his blog and he seems very reasonable about occultism. He has books in 3 separate systems
>The Celtic Golden Dawn, as mentioned
>Learning Ritual Magic / Paths of Wisdom / Circles of Power (for the original Golden Dawn system)
>The Druid Magic Handbook (another druid system, this one not directly based on Golden Dawn)

>>18870258
I've been having a lot of energy with Mantak Chia's microcosmic orbit

>>18870258
Picrel is Evola's final word on magic and politics
>>18872720
Based Chiabro

>>18871608
True lmao

>>18872678
I see, thank you.
What is your personal goal? Are you also looking for a way to ensure the immortality of the soul past the post-death state, or do you have other objectives?

>>18872754
Is that from Path of Cinnabar?

>>18870733
Hows about Hermeticism without Qaballah

>>18872720
>>18872754
>Step 1 breathe into your balls
>step 2 dont ejaculate for a long time
>step 3 om into your balls
>step 4 ????
MAGIC!

>>18872720
>>18872824
Will that help make my soul immortal and able to cross the abyss and pierce the veil of illusion after death, or is it just glorified nofap?

>>18872807
The Qabbalistic framework is very helpful (ascending the Tree of Life and all of the associated symbolism), what framework do the hermeticists use? Is there a practical book on pure hermeticism? I thought hermeticism was always supplemented by a system such as Kabbalah, Enochian or whatever else

>>18872783
I'm not sure what my goal is yet. I find occultism interesting but too unsure to seriously practice or study anything yet. But dealing with the afterlife or the cycle of reincarnation would be a big reason

>>18872858
Actually does set up the vocabulary and frame for rejuvenating strengthening super mental powers. My boomer Dad gained telekinesis and telepathy Im not making this shit up. Hes never going to use it for anything more than a magic trick.
17:15 some slav burns plastic with his chi.
I burnt my solar plexus with a short circuit overload. I steam ice water with my ice bath oms. I have scalded myself. I actually have useless superpowers but feeling super good and happy about your power is not useless. If I have kids who have more power their kids will be supermen flying and doing kamehameha with electronic gadgets operating on this power.

https://youtu.be/6du42gftsAg

>>18873501
My Dad made my arm move in another room by hijacking my nervous system. He also visited me in jail and sent me brief astral blurbs. Hope you Anons believe in yourselves and our ancient Vedic Hellenic scriptures as more than myth so you can live it. I am subtle in my power and believe we can return to our ancestral might and glory if you practice microcosmic orbit meditation, flawless nofap, and keto or some other strict diet that works for your neurogenerative empowerment. Eventually the initiations and greater mental powers of more fantastic akasic disclosure will dawn on you if you sacrifice the vices that are offered instead of this divine induction coil.

>>18873555
Checked
I've been weak lately...

>>18870258
I'm not an expert in the subject, but i feel that improving yourself in the real world beats magic. E.G: if you want to have success with women, better to hit the gym, use steroids, and approach a lot of women. If you want money, better to start a profitable business, than to do some money spells.
Magic might work, but like it was said, it's probably not taught in books you can buy on amazon.
t. i have those 3 Evola volumes.

>>18873790
>use steroids
yeah bro, just fuck your hormonal profile for your entire life just get get le pp touch

>>18870750

don't practice vajrayana on your won, the system is designed to be gifted by a guru, this is not just to mantain a esoteric hierarchy, but serves the purpouse of leting the student go a little "crazy" since the master can help him and guide trought the most wild parts of the paths, without a guru you can really do some damage to your psyche doing the more advanced practices

>>18870823
this is the "we live in a society" meme come to life, i can't believe someone quoted this thinking is profound

Bump

>>18874839
>we live in a democracy

>>18870707
This is, in fact, talking about platonism. Not about occult LARPing nonsense.
The only possible worthwhile "occultism" is in the vein of Frazer and Eliade. Notice that it is not totalizing into demonic obsession with one's own neurotic fantasies.

>>18875133
>This is, in fact, talking about platonism. Not about occult LARPing nonsense.
There's little difference. Most people consider Platonism to be more or less religious (and "Occult" depending on how far you read into his mystical dialogues like Timaeus).

>>18872876
>>18870733
Kabbalah is fundamentally Jewish, what are you on about? Incorporating Hermetic teaching won't change that.

>>18874839
It's not profound, because guys like Nietzsche already said the same thing (and in fact anyone with a functioning brain will have noticed this before they turned 18), but it is accurate.

>>18875139
Platonism is mystical, absolutely. But clear differences emerge when comparing it to the Eleusinian or Orphic mysteries, or Pythagoran thinking - these being the forms of esotericism which would dominate in the West until the rise of the Gnostics.
Therefore I can't consider it to fall under occultism or esotericism. Later esoteric groups incorporated Platonic teachings and Plato himself was inspired by Pythagoras (real or invented) but the fact remains that we are talking about Platonism which is not inherently esoteric.

>>18875150
(It is also not esoterically oriented more than any other form of elitist Greek philosophy, which is the actual important part. Sorry, I'm tired.)

>>18875145
>but it is accurate.
no is not, is absolutely shallow and simplistic, the type of thinking you would expect rom a 15 year old

>>18870823
as always guenon shows how little did he knows about western philosophy,in aristotelian metaphysics, hyle is just as important as morphe, in no way inferiror or rudimentary
the hyle/morphe dichotomy was build to oppose the platonic theory of ideas, in which the ideal world was superior to the material one, while in aristotelian metaphysics both hylic and morphe are part of the same thing
calling someone or something hylic is a contradiction in terms

Go back to /x/, you illiterate niggerschizos.

>>18875150
>Therefore I can't consider it to fall under occultism or esotericism.
Opinion noted. It seems like you think a school has to directly reflect one of these latter schools in order to be "esoteric", which is not my opinion (nor anyone with a functional definition of the term). Esotericism is not constrained to mystery cults and old philosophical schools. Pythagoras is actually a good example, because this school started out much like Plato's, just with a greater emphasis on specific moral behavior, and it has become an example of an "esoteric philosophy", even though we lack much of its content today. Ignoring the odd moral content which Plato did away with, his school mirrors Pythagoras (not in the exact teachings, but in the manner of existence) very closely.
>but the fact remains that we are talking about Platonism which is not inherently esoteric.
It is inherently esoteric, when it is considered in itself, and not in the modern external distortion of what Plato "really meant" (they reduce his entire philosophy to a sterile exposition of "the problem of universals", "epistemology", when Plato never considered these to be particularly huge problems in themselves. They were stepping stones.) This is to say, when you consider everything Plato taught, and don't leave out, like moderns usually do, the parts of his teachings which are "problematic" and "mystical." Of course Plato won't appear esoteric IF YOU LEAVE OUT ALL OF HIS ESOTERIC TEACHINGS when trying to "figure out what he really meant." Christ.
>(It is also not esoterically oriented more than any other form of elitist Greek philosophy
It most certainly is. That's basically what Platonism was renowned for amongst the "elitist" Greek philosophies, and what many of them criticized him for, even the Stoics (who had their own esoteric conceptions of reality, yet not to the same extent). One can also look at Proclus and Plotinus for confirmation, but of course modern scholars, obsessed with the idea that Plato was just some proto-academic, based entirely on written records we retain (which Plato himself consider shameful for all philosophy, see Phaedrus), refuse to accept any meaningful link between them.

The only thing I can maybe agree with you on is that it is not really "occult", but this again depends on how you even conceive this word. Plato was certainly not opposed to certain occult practices, however, if you consider his (and Socrates') participation in the Mysteries.

Waste of time. In doing all this bullshit tu get a better grip on life and reality, you will only work to loosen hold on both.

>>18875174
It's not at all. If you think Aristotle was shallow and simplistic (because he made the same argument, along with countless other highly intelligent philosophers throughout history), I don't know what to tell you. You expect me to take your word that a plainly obvious fact acknowledged by the highest thinkers is actually not true? That the majority of human beings are actually highly intelligent, insightful intellectuals? You're just reacting against Guenon out of spite. What he said is not even his "own" philosophy, you're simply desperate to put him down because "muh trads."
>>18875193
Guenon was not an Aristotelian proper, he just appropriated certain terms because they were useful. He's more of a Platonist, but he'd reject these labels because they're simply not useful. Also, Aristotle's philosophy is not even as straight forward as you've claimed, and scholars still debate about it today.

>>18875206
I concede all of this. I would only note that you've mischaracterized my position in the first point; I was merely committing the fallacy laid out in your second and third points since I am a pseud when it comes to the Greeks. I have no defense and I am shamed.

>>18875250
Don't be ashamed, this is predicated upon and revolves around semantics. There's obviously an element of truth to both our sides (that Plato, for instance, certainly wasn't a crazy schizophrenic who believed in any influence which came into his mind, attempting "mystical communions" and other borderline practices which are generally filed under "occult" today), but the words used (three distinct words which all differ in subtle ways) lend to confusion. Plotinus, for example, is considered a mystic (more than Plato because he is more explicit and kept nothing off paper), yet he was one of the first people in the ancient world to reject the influence of the stars (astrology), at least as causative of events on Earth.

>>18872926
>I find occultism interesting but too unsure to seriously practice or study anything yet.
Exactly my problem. I have no idea what is worth studying, what should be avoided, what is effective, which practices will get me closer to the goal, and so on. I've studied this subject for two years and although the breadth of my knowledge has increased, I still don't know which path to take.

bump

>>18870258
Fucking idiot, either magic doesn't exist or it does and by practicing you'd be pissing off some powerful god

>>18875675
The book isn't literally about magic

>>18870733
>is there such a thing as Qabbalah without such callbacks to Judaism
qabalah is just jewish neoplatonism

>>18875142
This is wrong again. There is a christian Kabbalah, and a greek Kabbalah.

>>18876014
Which is all based on the Jewish foundation.

>>18875206
I'm curious about plato's esoteric writings, I'm starting with the Greeks but interested in esotericism.

>>18876050
I'll give you some off the top of my head but many of them possess mixed themes and are not exclusively esoteric (they are partly concerned with the less substantial):
Timaeus
Critias
Crito
Phaedrus
Symposium
The Republic (this is a large one with hugely varied themes)
Meno (mainly for the idea of recollection)
Parmenides (this is extremely obscure, may not even be worth reading. It's necessary to continue to Plotinus, though)
This is in general order of esoteric content. Not necessarily the order you should read them in. Republic is supposedly "meant" to be read prior to Timaeus, because it occurred only a few days, or a day, before, and the discussion was continued from there.

>>18876037
Kabbalah goes back to Babylon, then probably egypt (mystery schools).
Jews didn't invented kabbalah you jewish centric. It goes back to Atlantis. Jews, like often, copied the knowledge, probably in Babylon.

>>18876117
Are there primary sources (or secondary) for the original Hellenic/Egyptian Kabbalah?

>>18876097
Thanks bro, appreciate it

>>18876355
I don't know. However, egyptians had concepts like the tree of life, possibly before the kabbalist jews.

>>18876355
No, it's just his fantasy. Like people who believe that the tarot was invented in Egypt.

>>18876117
>>18876420
My point is that, whether or not Kabbalah had older roots, the Kabbalah that exists today has only come down from Jewish hands. That's why it's necessarily Jewish and you won't find anything else.
>egyptians had concepts like the tree of life, possibly before the kabbalist jews.
Virtually every ancient culture had the idea of a symbolic tree which represented life. Even the Mesoamericans.

go back to /pol/ Dumbledore lmfao

>>18876481
> the Kabbalah that exists today has only come down from Jewish hands. That's why it's necessarily Jewish
Sounds like you are obsessed with the jews.

Bump

>>18875193
>calling someone or something hylic is a contradiction in terms
Guenon doesn’t use this word in his writings, his fans on 4chan adopted it into their vocabulary from gnostic teachings. You are confusing what Guenon-posters write with Guenon’s ideas. Guenon didnt to my knowledge wrote anything about Aristotle or his ideas that is incorrect.

>>18870258
>Are there any better books for a practical exposition of the great work and formation of the light body?
Anyone?

>>18870733
Your request is like asking how to walk with no legs - it makes no logical sense.

>>18877865
Just walk on your hands bro

>>18870972
>woman says men only learn big words because their moms bullied them
>men hear this and scramble to become dumber

Sad! Read a book faggot.

>>18877815
Bump

>>18870258
Its great. Just buy everything I have on my shelf (pic related) - You will get it all.

>>18879132
>Israel Regardie
>Kybalion
Can those really be trusted?

>>18879150
The kybalion is a really quick and easy read. Your gains are based on what you are wanting out of it. The same goes for Israel, but I think Israel is definitely worth it, regardless. The Kybalion helps you form a mindset, but I use these more for a metaphysical mindset than a "I can cast spells ex dee omg im a witch" mindset.
In fact, if you are trying to cast spells and break out of the shell, you need to go back to prison, Chris.

>>18875219
it is inaccurate because it is talking about 'leading' people as if such a thing really exists. certainly most people believe they are in charge of their own actions when they are not, because their actions are governed by institutions, conventions and economic forces. the economic forces also shape the institutions and are themselves the product of a massive network of differing interests. there is nobody driving the car, its more like a few hundred wealthy and/or powerful people tugging the car in different directions at the same time while none of them fully understands how the car works or where it is going.

>>18879132
What's the red book and the two black ones on top of it?

>>18879150
depends on what you're looking for, the Kybalion gets criticized because it isn't actually a reflection of ancient Hermeticism - but it is a good reflection of early 20th century occultism and New Thought. People interested in Tradition with a capital T like Guenon and Evola might be more attracted to Sufism or Hinduism or something with a long unbroken lineage, but there's nothing wrong with modern occultism if it works for you. Regardie is also a good writer on occultism and the Golden Dawn

>>18879273
>The Book of Lies
>The Book of the Law
>Corpus Hermeticum
You don't really need to bother with the Crowley books. But Corpus Hermeticum is nice.

>>18870664
based

>>18879305
>there's nothing wrong with modern occultism if it works for you.
Aren't these things precisely said to be counter traditional because they lead to lower states of realization if not downright spiritual danger?

>>18879305
>there's nothing wrong with modern occultism if it works for you
How is it not?

>>18879379
do they? I know there are a lot of larpers and a lot of nasty people in these scenes (just look at some /x/ threads), but I see successful people as well

>>18879132
You are missing Meditations On The Tarot

>>18880195
No use having that book if you're not a Christian

>>18879305
>the Kybalion gets criticized because it isn't actually a reflection of ancient Hermeticism

I criticize it because it's a collection of slogans that sound all deep and esoteric, but fall apart as meaningless as soon as you try to analyze what they are actually saying.

For new thought, K.O. Schmidt is much better (also suggested by the UR group).

Alright I just ordered it, I hope I haven't been memed and the techniques are actually good.
>>18872720
Can the UR group's methods be combined with Mantak Chia's/the Coiled Serpent's methods for sexual transmutation? Is it even useful to do so?

What is it about occultism that makes some people seethe so hard? Even if they're non religious they don't really get worked up about other religions and belief systems they also don't believe in. Is it just residual Abrahamic programming?

>>18882698
Who cares? Let them seethe

>>18873501
looks awesome but the russian language makes it very suspicious, he probably shopped those videos to make it look like magic

Threads on this book usually get quite a lot of insightful replies, I wonder why it's so dead this time

>>18882698
>Is it just residual Abrahamic programming?
Basically. The Inquisitions altered the genetic makeup of Europe.

>>18883562
The inquisitions didn't kill that many people

>>18870609
Esotericism/Traditionalism is not schizophrenia modernite retard

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=As6zlzx-EO4

>>18875411
Just pick a path like a self initiation book and force yourself to stick with it. I used to be in the exact same situation as you but I just followed a set of daily practices for 2 years from a self-initiation book, and even though at times I definitely stopped agreeing that it was the best way to do it, I pushed through and in the end you reach a state where you will know what you're doing and what to do/ what to avoid, just like with any other field. Experience is more important than fact-based knowledge, even if its not the best experience that it could be (hint: it never will be, but you keep aiming higher and higher over time).

>>18884403
Which practices did you follow?
I think I'll go with Evola's book and heed your advice, since it seems like the most serious practical book on the subject anyway.

>>18884414
I used Kabbalah, Magick, and the Great Work of Self-Transformation by Lyam Thomas Christopher, based off of suggestions from an esoteric youtuber like 5 years ago (mindandmagick, I think he still makes videos they're alright), which in turn was recommended to me on an obscure forum. I would say its probably not as good as Franz Bardon or Evola or a couple of the other writers you could get into, but that's kinda the point I'm making. You could probably go find some theosophist writer who prescribes a bunch of practices that are dumbed down westernized tantra and still make it. Mostly all that matters is effort and willingness to change. Find some set of practices and stick with them for a long time, the biggest threat to your advancement is that your ego will trick you into trying something for a day then hopping to trying something else for a day etc etc until you eventually quit.

>>18884476
That's a hermetic kabbalah book I'm assuming? And yeah
>the biggest threat to your advancement is that your ego will trick you into trying something for a day then hopping to trying something else
is a good point, I should stop trying to find the ideal system, just pick something and stick with it. My reason for hopping around was fear that by trying something suboptimal I'd become unable to see the big picture and would be misled, make mistakes and end up fucking myself over. Maybe these fears are unfounded.

>>18884502
The book is an attempt to self-initiate into the Golden Dawn system, its only other real competitor in that regard being the Cicero books which are okay but not as good imo (but you could definitely make an amalgam of the two, I did that for a while) and maybe some of Greer's books but I think his Learning Ritual Magic > Circles of Power > Paths of Wisdom is better than the Celtic Golden Dawn or something. The Golden Dawn is held up by pillars of Tarot, Astrology, and Qabalah in its own words. Its definitely a fine system but (again, like literally anything you can come across) it has its own issues.

The fear of fucking yourself over (although I completely understand it) is pretty much unfounded. Even if you mess with some demon stuff (which is the scariest thing you could do, willingly interact with negative entities) you'll be fine. It's always recoverable and there's always "higher help", in any tradition. If you're about to do something that'll be a really huge mistake you will 100% know its a really huge mistake, like getting involved in O9A. If its a small mistake, you'll probably still know, but you need to make small mistakes to learn. As long as you don't allow a tradition to tell you "I'm the true tradition and all others will eternally damn your soul" then you don't need to worry about being misled into not seeing the big picture. There's merit sometimes in exclusively practicing one tradition for a time, but closing yourself off from anything else new indefinitely is a mistake, and you should always be willing to learn.

>>18870972
Oof that hit close to home.

>>18884557
I see. I'm not very familiar with the Golden Dawn, I'll take a look later but I think I'm settled on the Evola book for now and I'll follow your advice about sticking to it even if it gets boring or if I have doubts.
Thank you for your advice, I appreciate the help. Would you say you're far along the path of self-realization at this point, have your practices effected profound change in your life?

>>18884612
I would not say I'm far along at all but I would say the effect my practices have had has been immeasurable. Since beginning my daily practice quite a while ago, it's felt like every week I'm a new (far better) person. It's a little disorientating honestly but in the best way possible. I'll hit peaks where I'm like "wow I'm almost there, I really don't think there's any real way I could improve from here" but then its like the veil is pulled back and I see the entire world with so much more scope and understanding that I realize I'm still nowhere close lol. Then I start on a new trek to achieve what I can set as my aim, I'm almost there, and then the scope pulls back again. It might sound tedious but its honestly the best feeling in the world.

>>18884647
Have you read Jung?

Holy fk im reading Evola and Spengler instead of fixing my life!

>>18884680
Not extensively, but enough to know the basics. I think his work is very interesting (from what I know) and its something I'm planning on doing a much deeper dive into soon. Why?

>>18884695
The way you described your personal advancement just reminded me of some of the things Jung had to say about his concept of individuation, which is most likely a byproduct of diligent spiritual practice.

>>18870972
>I'm a masculine competitive woman and I'm mad men read books and debate things I don't understand!

>>18884708
Yeah I mean from what I've read it really sounds like what Jung was trying to do (consciously or not) was scientifically describe the spiritual advancement process. From what I do know, I'd say he did it very well, for instance his insights on the nature of Anima line up extremely well with both personal experience and the symbolism of the alchemists and the Rosicrucians. He seems to me like a man who was tasked by God with bringing the divine into the modern day in the modern day's own language, and it seems like that has been very effective. His process of active imagination seems also to be pretty similar to what a lot of techniques in magic bring about, although (again, I'm not all that experienced with Jung) it seems far less refined, but that could just be because he was doing it with people who were normal people rather than people who have dedicated their lives to mental and spiritual training. Interesting comparison though I wouldn't have thought about it that way.

I'm literally better at natural magic than every single Renaissance magician that ever lived without having to pretend summon demons.

>>18882698
Occultism naturally makes the collective unconscious of the masses recoil out of fear that it will have to change, so they attack it, hence it is esoteric. Abrahamic religions and the like only ask you to continue society but with a new thing to listen to dogmatically (very compatible with collectivity), occultism asks you to forge a path for your will on your own.

>>18884757
>bringing the divine into the modern day
Pretty much. His later books seem to bring it all together (Psychology and Alchemy, Mysterium Coniunctionis, the Red Book) and at that point there's very little pretense of psychotherapy in the material sense anymore and you get the distinct impression Jung was a philosopher and mystic masquerading as a psychiatrist.

>>18884809
Yeah when I have read Jung in the past (its been a while) I remember getting really annoyed because I could tell he was using psychotherapy as a disguise and I wanted him to just come out and say what he was really thinking lol. Honestly while I understand why most people should not get into his later stuff before really understanding his earlier stuff, I'd probably have a more enjoyable time reading Aion or the Red Book (although I really do want to go back and read pretty much all of it).

>>18884839
>most people should not get into his later stuff before really understanding his earlier stuff
Just do it. I remember one anon recommending you read his endgame stuff first (even starting with the Red Book), then reading his more accessible works, and then re-reading the endgame books and realizing how much you missed on the first read.

>>18884857
That makes a lot of sense, actually I think I'll go get the Red Book now and read it, look forward to more Jung talk in these threads in the future lol

>>18884866
Unfortunately the traditionalists like Evola and Guenon despised Jung so I'm not so sure about that, but we get interesting Jung threads regularly on /lit/ anyway

>>18884884
Tbh I'd just assume that they would despise him for the same reason I found him incredibly hard to read originally- the 'scientification' of the mystical inherently misrepresents it. They probably also felt like he was misappropriating it. But it sounds like if you can get past that he did have a lot of genuinely good insights, especially since he talks about everything in a symbolic language that is much easier for the masses to accept compared to, say, the alchemists. I've gotten a lot better at reading things like that as I've progressed spiritually, you kinda learn how to discern the truth in anything, such that you can "see a world in a grain of sand, and a heaven in a wild flower, hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in an hour."

>>18884939
>the 'scientification' of the mystical
It's also because they believe his concept of the unconscious lumps in both the higher and the lower, i.e. that by seeking to integrate the "shadow" you are lending yourself to influences from lower realms and entities, instead of striving only for higher ones. I don't think they're completely wrong but I believe there is some value in confronting and understanding these darker parts. Although I don't really understand how Jung, a Gnostic, could think it was a good idea to seek to integrate evil (as described in Aion) instead of excising it.
>see a world in a grain of sand, and a heaven in a wild flower, hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in an hour
It's interesting how "as above, so below" is the one recurring truth in all main religions regardless of the time period or geographical area. Alongside the golden rule I guess.

>>18884963
Yeah that makes sense, shadow integration is the thing that has confused me more than anything with Jung so far. Like I understand confronting the shadow, and I understand positive qualities being corrupted and hidden in the shadow, and I understand that the best way to confront the shadow is through encountering it in its home (ie, allow bad behaviors so you can examine them), but I really have trouble with that actually being put into practice. It seems like it'd be way too common for the ego to take advantage of that and use it as a cope to justify bad behavior. That's honestly the thing I've struggled with the most in all of spiritual practices, is knowing what the right balance between "cast down all negative behavior and thought, treat them as demons" and "attempt to be sympathetic to bad behaviors so they don't just brew under the surface building strength." Honestly, through experience the latter usually seems to lead to ruin, but I usually chock that up to my will not being strong enough to keep myself on the edge but not over into backsliding because I'm allowing negative thought and behavior to rule me.

>>18870258
>I believe in nonempirical metaphysical bullshit

>>18885012
Yeah, I have the same interrogations and I don't know how to answer. In the practical sense, working with dreams actively (not simply by journaling) seems like a very productive way to confront your shadow and "integrating" it in the literal sense (letting it dissolve) but without accepting it into yourself/letting yourself be influenced by it. Past that, I don't know, and I'm not familiar enough with the traditionalists to know what alternative they envisioned.

>>18885093
>I'm a logical positivist

>>18885137
>“If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion.”

>>18885245
>Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number?
Yes.

>>18884808
Occultism changes the collective unconscious?

You faggots do realize that you are basically just teen girls doing wicca spells, but just with an even lamer "trad" reskin, right?

>inb4 "hurrr durrr I'm an initiate you don't understand."

Magic isn't real faggot. Go out a hex on me, don't give a shit. Go magic yourself a GF if it is real.

>>18885770
I know the thread is dead but you don't need to bump with bait

>>18885093
reddit soimen are physicalist empiricists though

>>18885770
Magic is real.

>>18870258
>How good is this as a practical, step-by-step guide to spiritual advancement through the use of western esoteric (hermetic, qabalistic) techniques?

0% good. it's all lies. if you want actual mysticism, become Catholic.

>>18870258
look into chaos magick if you want results

>>18888218
Any tested stuff that works? I tried masturbating into an image to charge it but never had any results.

>>18888933
You can try secular clairvoyance if you want information. If you want material changes, I think the use of artificial elementals or the evocation of angels are the best starting options.

>>18888944
>You can try secular clairvoyance if you want information
Have you tried this before? Is it dangerous?

>>18888213
kek

>>18888977
I've tried it, and it is not dangerous. It just tends to be too sparse without long sessions and consistent practice in the CRV protocol. There's a substantial difference between possessing veridical and practically useful information. That being said, I got enough of the former for me to want to continue, and with effort I think there is something to be gained. If you're starting out, I'd recommend using a site with pre-prepared targets. If you get really into it you can ask a friend to mail you sealed envelopes with images. There are resources for a proper session setup if you look up "CRV" or "six stages," but for starting purposes, you can just notate impressions received and instances of analytical overlay in a separate column (the latter will be distinguished by being a clear image of an object rather than sensory data). Once you're done, you can then confirm the target by clicking on the link or opening the envelope. If you want to try, the bottom two links provide a set of targets and a post that may outline a more proper protocol better. Good luck. As an aside, sorry that this doesn't strictly relate to the thread's topic.
https://www.remoteviewed.com/remote-viewing-targets/
https://rviewer.com/Remote_Viewing_Blog/remote-viewing-session-examples/overview-of-a-controlled-remote-viewing-session/

>>18888218
This won't lead to spiritual realization, just to powers

>>18875206
Anon what translation of Plato should I pick up?

>>18889058
Thank you so much anon.

>>18870273
found the tranny

>receive the book today
>it's a little bit damaged but not enough for me to justifiably send it back
Fucking hate when this happens

>spiritual advancement
"The Dayspring of Youth" by M
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.217533/mode/1up

Anyone have experience with Franz Bardon?

>>18891938
Pass on bardon.

>>18892356
Why is he bad? Who is worth reading in that whole scene anyway

>>18870258
I'm leafing through it right now and it's cryptic and doesn't detail many actual practices, why is it so often recommended?

>>18892363
He's good. IIH is one of the best training manuals and much more accessible than ITM. Rawn Clark, William Mistele and a few others who have completed Bardon's books have released commentaries that make it clearer and easier to work through.

stupid question but there books about magic that describe it to understand it and give ways to avoid and be protected from it instead of pushing it?

>>18893730
>much more accessible than ITM
Is ITM particularly hard or something?

>>18890074
No problem, hope it helps.

>>18894815
Yeah, see: >>18872754

>>18894882
What was the point of writing ITM if he believed the goal was almost unattainable? Can a presumably normal person get anything out of it?

>>18894952
>they should be read for the sole purpose of broadening one's intellectual horizons
There are a few essays in the volumes featuring beginners talking about their early experiences and successes, so maybe.

>>18895021
Have you tried the techniques?

>>18895041
I tried a few of them years ago, but most of it was too difficult for me.

>>18895155
Have you abandoned the Work entirely, or just moved on to an easier system?

>>18894952
ItM was published when he was young. People are allowed to change their mind on stuff.

>>18895171
Moved to an easier system involving a mix of Mahayana Buddhism, Taoism and some occultism.

>>18893730
How are Bardon's other two books?

>>18895245
I haven't worked them, but I've heard mostly good things from friends who have. Btw apparently there are another 19 books of knowledge and training material that those books are a part of. He finished a small part of the next one (The Golden Book of Wisdom) before getting shut down. Rest have to be taught by spirits I guess.

>>18895241
Sounds interesting, do you have any book recommendations?

>>18877815
The Science of the Magi, Kremmerz
Now stop asking and start reading you stupid motherfuckers

>>18895313
These are all the books related to Bardon I have.

>>18895374
Thanks
I'm reading ITM right now and getting somewhat filtered so I'll check those books out

>>18895021
Is he right that failure to attain the goals expounded in the books will result in obliteration after death?

>>18871936
yes

>>18870683
>people who are smarter than me are cwaaazy

>>18874839
>>18875174
If you havent noticed you live in a world surrounded by literal droolers, it is because you are one of the droolers you fucking donkey

>>18875193
What does me using the word hylic have to do with anything you fucking autist? I also said shudra which is basically the Vedic equivalent. Were you just trying to show everyone how autistic you are with nonsequitar?

>>18896641
>I also said shudra which is basically the Vedic equivalent.
Wouldn't it be dalit?

>>18895776
ItM is really fucking hard honestly. It's definitely not an introductory book. Bardon would be better for that. Maybe Regardie but I don't have any experience with him.

>>18896644
I mean words are meant to convey ideas so 100's of words can be used that arent a 1 to 1 equivalent but still get your idea across.

Calling someone trailer trash can encompass the fact that they are low IQ, poor, low class, crass etc etc. As always context matters. A hylic would obviously be of low caste, intellectually anyhow. In the kali yuga hylics can be quite successful monetarily and socially which fits with the Guenon quote. Humanity has fallen so far in this yuga the shudras are no longer the bottom of the social hierarchy. We dont live in a society run by brahman and kshatriya we live in a society ruin by the Vaishyas (merchants) and when most of the population are drooling retards obviously packaged retardation will be the most appealing and successful products to sell.

>>18882698
It is the kali yuga and the hylics are the agents in the matrix. Humanity has to take a very destructive path in this yuga and if everyone was "enlightened" that couldn't happen, therefore the NPCs must attack anyone attempting to wake up the NPCs. Though it is a sad and annoying state of affairs it is sadly necessary just as the NPCs in any other vidya game have to do their programming to move the plot along.

>>18879214
>there is nobody driving the car,
Yes, in modern society, you are correct. This doesn't conflict with Guenon's point and he would even agree with you here.

>>18881732
>I criticize it because it's a collection of slogans that sound all deep and esoteric, but fall apart as meaningless as soon as you try to analyze what they are actually saying.
literally the exact opposite. They may sounds empty to you but it is because it is rorschach and you can only see what your level of knowledge intellect is capable of process. The more you learn however the deeper your understanding becomes. In short you are a pleb therefore you posses a plebs understanding. It is a poor musician who blames the instrument

>>18896976
>if everyone was "enlightened" that couldn't happen
If everyone was enlightened people would stop reproducing and humanity would die out, creating new suffering is literally an antithesis to enlightenment.

>>18897015
The idea that life is suffering is basically the opposite of enlightenment, so no, you are incorrect.

>>18897015
>If everyone was enlightened people would stop reproducing and humanity would die out, creating new suffering is literally an antithesis to enlightenment.
Well, not necessarily. You inhabit the earth "organ" of the Universal being. You have a function just as your blood cells in your liver have a function. Your blood cells cant decide to not "reproduce" anymore than humanity can. The universal mind decides these things and creates the rules and manifests the players to act them out.

>>18897015
I wrote this article. It isnt perfect but it is better than I am willing to effort post atm
https://esotericawakening.com/is-free-will-an-illusion

>>18897037
See the first noble truth, you're only detached from suffering after enlightenment and no one is born enlightened.

Not sure if I should make a new thread for this
How good are Israel Regardie's books on kabbalah? Or Dion Fortune's?
I'm looking for good but accessible books on the subject, aside from Kaplan's Sefer Yetzirah

>>18897109
The Buddha's enlightenment was not "life is suffering", "dukkha" is simply the prerequisite to walk the path.

>>18897430
Yes suffering is something experienced by all those who are unenlightened. Therefore the enlightened would want to create more suffering by giving birth to unenlightened. Sorry I didn't quite understand you at the start, my mistake, you're right and I'm wrong.

How do you which "magic" books don't induce luciferian powers that corrupt one's soul? I'm not a Christian but still believe in evil/good dichotomy and that someone using tarrot cards on me made me see a creepy spirit that looked like a 80 year old woman with a creepy smile, looking at me from under my bed.

So I know new age crap is a psyop to summon evil powers, then what is "pure" or good magic? Not going to dabble in this shit unless such a thing exists. Hermeticism is okay, but doesn't seem like magic at all, just seems to describe neoplatonic philosophical principles (maybe one can go deeper though, I've just read Kybalion)

>>18897570
The general rule of thumb is if you sue magic to thwart other people's "free will" it is black magic and bad karma. Don't shoot the messenger, I am neither promoting nor condemning this assertion, just letting you know it is the general rule of thumb from my many years of study on this topic. How valid and true it is, is beyond my knowledge to confirm or deny

>>18897534
>e
The unenlightened enjoy their "suffering." That's why they're "trapped" in Samsara. It's because they don't want to leave.

>>18897683
which is why you should strive for unenlightenment, as taught by the buddha, because suffering is actually a good thing, and afflicting others with it is the noblest goal

>>18897840
That's a fine non sequitur. People enjoy scratching pus-filled scabs off too, just to open up a bigger wound.

Why can't buddhacucks stay in their cryptonihilism containment threads, fuck off

>>18897570
Sometimes you'll find that these sorts of things are symbols of your own concerns and intuitions. Like in dreams, the mind will tend to project them as images of external things coming at you. Which could be a reason why a lot of the neoplatonists insist on the importance of purification before engaging in theurgy. One way to look at could be something like assuming those philosophical principles also represent real states you can experience, and that those states are useful for doing "magic."

I think problems creep in when you start to accumulate a lot of intellectual justification for things you intuitively know are an inversion of the capital-g Good. "It's okay to fuck people over because _____." Like any area of life, really.

>>18897899
wtf? I was agreeing with you. You're saying that suffering, just like scratching pus-filled scabs off, is not a good thing and should not be striven for, nor continued, nor created?