/lit/ - Literature

>>18826705
And about science. Marxist tends to believe communism as a science. Something can be recognized as science only if it can be observed or experimented and falsified on empirical basis. Marx and marxist were seeing communism as “unfalsified thing” or “unrefuted fact” on empirical basis. Too bad this is just over confidence proposition. Communism can not be recognized as science because in the first place it is “unfalsified thing.” It is just political movement which pretending as “science” to be acceptable and sounds fancy.

“Communism is science ! Look at dialectical history and materialism ! What? The socialist society can’t be replaced by communist society because the dictator of proletariat had abused the power? I-it wasn’t real socialism !!”

“Science only has tendency to explain and experiment something as it is. It is far way different from ideology. Ideology has tendency to monopolizes truth and rules society. Communism has that tendency. Therefore communism is ideology rather than science.”

Simple as.

Book Title : The Ethics of Politics.

Author : Franz-Magnis Suseno.

ISBN : I forget it.

Pages : around 350 Pages.

Publisher : Gramedia Pustaka Utama.

>>18826705
I'm not reading another retarded book to tell me communism is a failure. The author is a retarded nobody.

>>18826705
He sure doesn't look Indonesian...

>>18826757
A citizenship isn’t based on races or etnicity.

>>18826765
Very unfortunate.

>He studied Marxism to combat it as an enemy of the faith
That should be enough to disregard what this hack has to say completely.
>Communism can not be recognized as science because in the first place it is “unfalsified thing.” It is just political movement which pretending as “science” to be acceptable and sounds fancy.
Undialectical, would you say Machiavelli is unscientific too? I don't get what you're trying to say.

>>18826776
What i was trying to say is according to marxist, communism can not be proven wrong. This is dogmatic not scientific. Sciences are open to criticism and can be proven wrong. Nuff said.

>>18826705
you have to be 18 years or older to post in this webstie

>>18826705

>>18826814
>>18826831
I wonder what reality looks like in a leftypol zoomers mind?

>>18826814
Ok, oldfag..

Why are Americans OBSESSED with communism despite it being btfo and irrelevant for nearly 40 years?

>>18826712
>Marxist tends to believe communism as a science. Something can be recognized as science only if it can be observed or experimented and falsified on empirical basis.
Your point being

https://youtu.be/2QH5GBwZVkI?t=178

>>18826923
Because muh rebel against the dominant political economic ideology is cool..

>>18826923
Because they've been propagandised for even longer to detest it without any rational thought as to why.
Most of the stuff you read on 4chan about leftist, commies, socialists, "liberals" is likely to written by retarded americans who haven't read a single book on capitalism(not even the CM which is the easiest thing in the world to read)

>>18826923
Marxism and communism is still huge, with thousands of variations. Tho a lot of people that call themselves Marxist today have very little to do with the old left and marxism/communism of old, the smarter ones say that they've gone "beyond" marx. The term is just a signal, and most people never even read him, even big communist youtubers like vaush admit he never read marx

>>18826712
>Marxist tends to believe communism as a science. Something can be recognized as science only if it can be observed or experimented and falsified on empirical basis.
What kind of system would do these things?

1. Not react to a pandemic until there was already a mass outbreak within your borders, and setting the initial strategy as achieving herd immunity through letting the disease ravage your population, ostensibly while trying to protect the most vulnerable (but not actually doing that)

2. Changing the strategy slightly to no longer stating that herd immunity is the goal, but instead having all policy be to try to prevent the ICs from overflowing. As long as IC capacity threshold is not exceeded, everything else is fine, and as soon as IC occupancy goes down that means you can abolish measures.

3. Don't have anyone in the government do any goddamn work. Like, at all. Just utterly refusal to do literally anything stemming from an ideology that the "free market" should solve all problems and the government should get out of the way.

4. Put your head so far up your own ass that you basically disregard scientific findings unless they have been performed or verified at your own universities or governmental health institutions. Refuse to do anything based on a "better safe than sorry" idea and instead require things to be conclusively and scientifically proven before you endorse them. So like, you have many months where it wasn't technically proven that masks would help (though like, there was no real downside to doing it just to be safe and the potential upside was huge) so your expert opinion was to not mandate masks and await further studies.

5. Assume everybody involved at all levels of everything are superior to others, very smart, very reasonable, and very responsible people. No matter how many times reality proved this wrong.

>>18826705
>Marx’s premises: slavery society get replaced by feudal society, feudal society get replaced by capitalistic society (French revolution ayyee).
From the proposition above, then he come to a conclusion: Therefore capitalist society one day will be replaced by socialist society and socialist society will be replaced by communist society. The end of dialectical materialism. Class antagonism.
strawman-Marx regurgiated by cretins

actually Marx:
>...These are signs of the times, not to be hidden by purple mantles or black cassocks. They do
not signify that tomorrow a miracle will happen. They show that, within the ruling classes
themselves, a foreboding is dawning, that the present society is no solid crystal, but an organism
capable of change, and is constantly changing

>Marx’s premises: slavery society get replaced by feudal society, feudal society get replaced by capitalistic society (French revolution ayyee). From the proposition above, then he come to a conclusion: Therefore capitalist society one day will be replaced by socialist society and socialist society will be replaced by communist society. The end of dialectical materialism. Class antagonism.
strawman-Marx regurgiated by cretins

actually Marx:
>...These are signs of the times, not to be hidden by purple mantles or black cassocks. They do not signify that tomorrow a miracle will happen. They show that, within the ruling classes themselves, a foreboding is dawning, that the present society is no solid crystal, but an organism capable of change, and is constantly changing

>>18826814
>says the commie anime tranny
Dilate

>>18826923
>>18826949
>>18826991
Because its taking over the world right now
America is going through the next cultural revolution

>>18827068
This in no way refutes anything said in the OP.

>>18827078
Case in point.
>>18826991

>>18827113
nice of you to admit your own illiteracy

>>18827118
I'm not even American retard
My parents actually lived through communism you trust fund baby

>>18827118
>>18827151
Arguing with Marxists is more pointless than talking with flat earthers

>>18827167
>My parents actually lived through communism
So did mine, and I still prefer it to capitalism.

>>18827068
Now kindly give us the quotes about the "historical necessity" and "inevitability of socialism" and explain what exactly historical materialism is.

>>18827151
I'll just assume you're an ESL and let you off easy.

>>18826705
Interestingly enough, from what you said he has accepted the basic Marxist premise that societies can be classified, not by regime, but by economic/production relations, and even accepted Marx's theory of the different types and stages of economic relations. While attempting to criticize Marxism, he has himself become a crypto-Marxist.

>>18826923
Marx is not irrelevant.

>>18827247
I am of the mind that Marx was not the first human to ever think such ideas.

>>18826871
>memewords
Go figure

>>18826705
>What i like most from this book is; the author has balls to explains and critizes communism
wow, he has the balls to do what the Democratic US president has done on Twitter just last month. the absolute mad man!
>Communism is defined as philosophical or political movement that intends to abolish the capitalistic society and replace it with socialist society and replace it again with communist society
a socialist society is the same thing as a communist society.
and this characterization is already one-sided and biased. you might just as well characterize communism as a movement generated by capital that will lead to the disappearance of capital. but that would've obviously failed to set it up as some exogenous, voluntarist boogeyman invading the otherwise peaceful and harmonious bourgeois society
>according to “the law of dialectical history and materalism.”
and what is the content of this supposed "law of dialectical history and materialism"?
>From the proposition above, then he come to a conclusion: Therefore capitalist society one day will be replaced by socialist society and socialist society will be replaced by communist society.
he came to the conclusion that capitalist society will be replaced by communist society from the study of capitalist society. because this is absolutely not something that could be deduced from the mere fact that, e.g., a capitalist society has replaced a feudal society.
>When slavery society get replaced by feudal society and feudal society get replaced by capitalist society, it doesn’t mean capitalist society will be replaced by 'socialist society and communist society'
exactly. so you should understand how this strawman is retarded.
>in fact what so called ‘socialist society’ is just a society which dedicates to socialist elites like Lenin And Stalin. It is just oligarchy on other form; red bureaucrat. People are nothing but slaves who get controlled by state apparatus.
a socialist society lacks bureaucracy and the state.
oligarchy is always based on monopoly of property, but socialist society lacks that, as it is characterized by common property.
>A flawed philosophical project consist of ad hoc proposition. Communism is philosophy which consist of ad hoc proposition. Conclusion: Therefore communism is a flawed philosophical project. An invalid, wrong, and unpractical philosophy.
communism is not a philosophy, but, as was already noted in your post, a movement. it is, moreover, a movement that represents a practical overcoming of philosophy. and it doesn't consist of propositions, but of human action driven by material necessity.

>>18826705
>>18827319
>“The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it.” How can you change something based on wrong proposition, nigga.
Marx didn't propose that he will change anything based on any proposition. he only discovered the success conditions of a real movement for change that already existed independent of him.
what he's stating in the quote is simply that real change will come from this real movement, not from philosophy.
>Something can be recognized as science only if it can be observed or experimented and falsified on empirical basis.
this is not so. even bourgeois philosophy of science has given up on the idea that a universal set of criteria, such as falsifiability, could be identified which demarcate science from non-science. there are countless scientific propositions that can't be "experimented", like language reconstructions in linguistics.
>“Communism is science ! Look at dialectical history and materialism ! What? The socialist society can’t be replaced by communist society because the dictator of proletariat had abused the power? I-it wasn’t real socialism !!”
in the dictatorship of the proletariat, the proletariat is the dictator.
the fall of the Russian revolution is not explained by "abuse of power" (a non-explanation) but by proper scientific explanations, such as the relative force of different social classes at the time and tactical errors that led to the degeneration of the proletarian party.

>>18826811
>What i was trying to say is according to marxist, communism can not be proven wrong.
you can only prove something wrong if it actually is wrong. and if the Marxist thought Marxism was actually wrong about something relevant, he wouldn't be a Marxist in the first place.

>>18827027
vaush is a functionary of the left wing of capital. his job is to get zoomers to vote for Biden or at least make sure their parents do. and, further, to make sure that once they completely reject Biden, they remain in support of some slightly more "radical" wing within the same party. or in simple terms, it's just shilling for the Democrats, basically. not only is this not communist, but it's very openly anti-communist.

One day, someone will write a book critical of marxism without resorting to a variation of "soviet russia was bad", but it hasn't happened yet.

>>18826712
I have run into the same thing. It always boils down to: If you believe in the core thesis of communism this all is scientifically sound derived from it. It feels like arguing with the retarded kind of Christians, God exists, if you believe in him all of this makes sense.

I like this. This getting hot.

>>18827325
>but it hasn't happened yet

I know, and that's hilarious. What 's the closest thing to something like this, for the record?

>>18827407
probably some autistic shit about price signals and financialization disproving the labour theory of value.
Both of those would only be close though:
The issue of computing price signals just points to Marxism being incomplete, and financialization is just capitalism but slightly more complicated. If you have a 401(k) you're a capitalist, and the profit you make on that is just a total stranger's surplus labour value.

>>18827262
Okay. Can you give me any examples?

>>18827491
True

>>18826705
Someone just straight up forgot to read hegal.

Also Marx didn't just look at this pattern and say "hey capitalism is gunna fall, qed" he wrote multiple huge tomes of economic analysis showing that the capitalist economic system is mathematically doomed to failure.

This is why all economists before marx took the labor theory of value for granted then Marxs says "hey if this theory exists, which I believe it does then by your own logic this can't work in the long run, it's doomed" and the Capitalist economists freaked out and immediately reversed everything and said "no no no value is based on nothing at all. The price of goods has nothing to do with how much was put into producing it. It's all determined by pixie dust and fairy wings!"

Despite this Marxist economics makes real predictions about various parts of our current capitalist economy and it comes out right everytime. Meanwhile our beat Capitalist economists can't predict or even alleviate a global financial meltdown under their own nose.

>>18827491
price signals are easily calculated through labor time and electronic computation. The "calculation problem" idea came out before computers. It's insane we still think we can't efficiently plan an economy with the level of computational power we have right now. Plus cockshott literally simulated a year of Sweden's entire economy on like a junk 2010's laptop in a few minutes.