/lit/ - Literature

>>18812177
No one will ever know what fascism is

>>18812181
you just haven't bothered reading any fascist scholars

Italy and Nazi Germany are the stereotypical fascist states. What other examples of fascists states have there been?

>>18812177
This cope boils my piss and I'm not even a fascist, a communist or even really capitalist.
Probably the only thing dumber is the "libertarian to fascist pipeline" which, when every single historical fascist was an ex-socialist, is unforgivable wilful ignorance.

>>18812181
>>18812189
Or any marxist theorists of fascism.

1) national loss
2) revolution, or threatened revolution
3) reclaiming the national loss
4) through a reassertion of the nation as race

I mean it isn't that fucken difficult. We've known this since the 20s.

>>18812213
Palingensis doesn't fit any of those so what about palingentic ultranationalism.

>>18812177
how long til butters post some pretentious schizo babble in this thread? 3...2...1

>>18812181
Fascism is when you don't agree with me, obviously.

>>18812209
spain and japan

The most similar thing to "capitalism in decay" is social democracy.

>>18812219
Griffin is bourgeois scum. As a refutation: Horthy; Salazar.

>>18812225
>Spain
No. Franco was an authoritarian conservative, not a Falangist - he threw them to the wolves.

>>18812229
Regardless of whatever he is his theory seems to fit best.

>>18812225
Not even close, the only fascist state was the Italian one. Spain was a right-wing dictatorship like so many others in Europe, and Japan was literally the old regime.

this cope is so funny to me, it's like leftists cannot even comprehend the idea that someone else hates the capitalist system just as much as they do, so they have to come up with this sort of stuff. it's very funny, second only to their copes when confronted with the fact that all major corporations agree with their social views
>t-they're just p-pandering
KEK. if your views were dangerous to them, they wouldn't be pandering to them. and if the "oppressed" trannies and niggers were actually oppressed, supporting them wouldn't be lucrative.

leftists get so much right in their critiques of capitalism and they're generally smart people so it boggles the mind how they believe stuff like op quote and the aforementioned stuff.

>>18812225
Isn't one of the requirements of fascism that it seeks to overthrow the current order and bring about a new order?

So Spain and Japan couldn't possibly be considered that. Franco was a conservative who wanted to have a traditional, conservative, Catholic country while Japan was just the Emperor doing his thing.

>>18812247
>this cope is so funny to me, it's like leftists cannot even comprehend the idea that someone else hates the capitalist system just as much as they do, so they have to come up with this sort of stuff. it's very funny, second only to their copes when confronted with the fact that all major corporations agree with their social views
How is this even unique to you? It's typical of people whose will to power is the will to truth. Nietzsche already explained all of of this so long ago. Christians do exactly the same thing with, eg, Islam, by claiming that Islam, despite the fact that they worship God and want to arrive in heaven just like Christians, is actually a ploy by Satan or some other malignant force in order to divert people from Christ. It's the same thing with leftists except instead of God, Christ and Satan it's communism, class warfare and the bourgeoisie. Thus anyone who doesn't believe in the official canon of Marxism is necessarily corrupted by the Satanic influence of the bourgeoisie. Fascists do the same thing too, but not as often, especially the ones who obsess that Marxism is a Jewish-controlled ideology. It all comes down to the same aspect of the will to power (via the will to truth) on both sides.

>>18812232
AND HORTHY WAS OVERTHROWN BY ARROW CROSS THIS DOES NOT MAKE HORTHY LESS FA

Franco was fa: a revolutionary reactionary.
Franco liquidiated other fa, the falange.
Well let me tell you about how the trots died matey88.

>>18812254
>Isn't one of the requirements of fascism that it seeks to overthrow the current order and bring about a new order?
No, it is that is seeks to reclaim an imagined past.

Fucking read some basic theory. The german marxists pre and post war are good on theory of fascism. Even fascists can agree with their theorisations: the fascists just go "yes, of course, this is good."

>>18812270
>reclaim an imagined past
Then how do Spain or Japan fit this definition?

>>18812277
Showa Japan produces an imaginary Bushido cult, with zen buddhists being more Shinto than Shinto, the state and elite discarding mere reactionary (for an actual past) for an imaginary past that has not and can never had existed.

Franco is a reactionary for an imaginary Spain. He doesn't need to be particularly modernist to be fascist, because Spain is so damn fucked up.

It is like Horthy in both cases: reactionary politics are so fantastic that fascism is "ordinary" for the right.

>>18812270
Don't really see how self-admitted imperialist expansionism is "reclaiming an imagined past." The Nazis' line of argument was literally just expanding the Reich so that Germans could proliferate both in number and productivity.
>inb4 national socialism is not fascism

>>18812283
>an imaginary Bushido cult
Bushido was real, not imaginary.
>with zen buddhists being more Shinto than Shinto
Zen Buddhists have always been mixed between Shinto and Zen; it's the nature of religion in Japan (and Asia in general, which has always been syncretistic), it was far more Shinto in the past than the present, because Shinto has actually declined over time, especially after WW2.
>the state and elite discarding mere reactionary
The Japanese state was never "reactionary", it was expansionistic and imperialist. All of its claims were based on religious and nationalist fervor, they did not idealize the past. The Samurai were still resented in Japan (read, eg, Sakai's autobiography for evidence of this - they were almost treated as second class citizens).
>Franco is a reactionary for an imaginary Spain.
No, he's not. He's a "reactionary" for restoring the authority of Spain's estates and monarchy which had been challenged by communist insurrection.
Your historical knowledge is lackluster.

>>18812270
>the german marxists pre and post war are good on theory of fascism.
Literal propaganda
Fascism is anti-traditionalist. This can be seen in Mussolini or Marinetti himself, where there is a whole hymn to modernity. Moreover, fascism is for them the zenith of the Risorgimento.

>>18812247
>all major corporations agree with their social views
No one except the dumbest rightists think the behavior of corporations means anything except "the profit motive is pointing us this way."
>if your views were dangerous to them, they wouldn't be pandering to them.
And now it makes sense: you are in fact one of the dumbest rightists. Cozying up to a threat so you can subvert it is such a simple and obvious tactic, middle schoolers could do it. That said, leftist social views are not the threat to corporations: blacks and trannies can consoom too. Leftist economic views (short term empowerment of unions, long term abolition of private property), however, are.

>>18812294
This. It's embarrassing when people say something to the effect of "fascism is just reactionary/traditional politics".

>>18812284
The east was always german but is now filled with slavs.


Fucksake cunt do you read?

>>18812293
liberal 20s and civil government

>reactionary
It was a fucken republic you stupid cunt. Stop eating so much fucking meth.

>>18812294
H O R T H Y

>>18812177
Is not capitalism the embracing of identity and culture?

>>18812317
Sorry I meant fascism not capitalism

>>18812213
>1) national loss
>2) revolution, or threatened revolution
>3) reclaiming the national loss
>4) through a reassertion of the nation as race
Sounds good to me, what's the problem here if you're not a racial minority or mixed?

>>18812311
>The east was always german but is now filled with slavs.
That's not what they claimed, with the exception of the Sudetenland and parts of Poland. Russia was essentially fertile soil for Germans which had never been there before, the Nazis never claimed that Russia was "always German." That's a fairytale you've just come up with out of thin air. The Nazis were honest enough not to have to make up lies about their ambitions; they simply wanted Russia, and they tried to take it, because they could. No apology or justification needed - the strong will kill or absorb the weak.

>>18812298
>That said, leftist social views are not the threat to corporations: blacks and trannies can consoom too. Leftist economic views (short term empowerment of unions, long term abolition of private property), however, are.

kek, you worked yourself up into a seethe and insulted me just so to agree with me in the end. be nicer anon, you'll attract more flies with honey than with vinegar

>>18812340
Want to talk to me about ethnically German soviets? No you don't. Because you're trying to edge out soft cunts like Pinochet.

>>18812338
That you're viewing this as a moral debate rather than a taxinomy.

>>18812317
>>18812322
Jesus fuck cunt, start reading. When the fascists in this thread have better reading of theory in the humanities than you you know you literally need to cover yourself with diesel and fail to set yourself on fire.

Serious historians don't talk the leftoid kitsch narrative about fascism seriously.

>>18812354
>Serious historians
>I fellate Griffin
Tell me your opinion on what ordinary men do in their spare time?

>>18812351
Is it not though? No other ideology I've seen places so much emphasis on identity and culture?

>>18812351
If it's the working definition on the left I really don't think the opposition is warranted.

>>18812181
It's the middle class organized by the bourgeoise against the militant labour movement

>>18812375
cope

>>18812177
this is such a ridiculous phrase

>>18812381
where's the cope? It's literally what happened in Germany and Italy.

>>18812346
It can be a mix, like apple-cider vinegar

>>18812365
Yeah but identity for the fascist is ontologically inherent. The ontological inherency can be scientific genetics, breeding blood, soil, culture, language, religious culture. It doesn't matter what the inherent ontology of race is, what matters is that it inheres.

>>18812366
Opposition to cretinism is always warranted. For strategic reasons I don't always display it against fascists. But on this very topic it is more strategic to agree with fa scum on what genuinely comprises fa than to leave liberal shites uneducated (and unknived).

>>18812375
Too simple. Reactionary politics or Thatcher or Reagan comprise fascism. But Thatcher or Reagan didn't need to exceed a failed bourgeois liberal politics to fuck up workers. Pinochets with no Allende.

>>18812351
>Want to talk to me about ethnically German soviets
There were a few ethnic Germans living in Russia because they had migrated to the Don area in the 1800s (only a very small amount mind you). That wasn't a justification the Nazis used to invade.

>>18812298
>Cozying up to a threat so you can subvert it is such a simple and obvious tactic, middle schoolers could do it
is that's what's going on here? so what are your thoughts on the fbi "cozying up" aka infiltrating to right wing groups and staging fake crimes they could bust them on? for example, did you know that the group that had that governor whitmer kidnapping plot had 12 federal informants in it?
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jessicagarrison/fbi-informants-in-michigan-kidnap-plot

>>18812403
And I don't disagree with that. The point I was eventually going to make is that global capitalism caused a deterritorialization in identity. I can literally be whatever I want to be, I can't be a native American today and a samurai tomorrow. The result being is that none of those "identities" that I've chosen to adopt have any meaning, I'm just a blank canvas.

So if fascism is the ideology of identity then doesn't it make sense that it's a reaction against this equalising global capitalism? Isn't it a way of reclaiming an inherent identity that's been sold as a commodity for years?

>>18812427
Yeah, that's regular glowie shit. Cringe. What about it?

>>18812406
It was a clear example of Drang nacht osten being blood reclaiming lost soil. The east was the Africa of Germany.

>>18812403
You're committing a category error if you think Pinochet is part of the same phenomenon as Hitler and Mussolini. The most comparable Latin dictator is Peron. Fascist movements marshalled both radical and petit bourgeois elements (Mussolini famously wanted to ally with the Italian left but was overruled, to his disappointment, by the squadristi, reactionary partisans who broke strikes for agrarian property owners).

>>18812446
i'm curious as to how it squares with your idea that when the system tries to subvert you, it's a sign you're a threat to it. are you willing to grant that right wingers are a threat to the system too?

>>18812453
>It was a clear example of Drang nacht osten being blood reclaiming lost soil.
No it wasn't, it was just imperialistic expansion - um die Erwerbung des Lebensraums.

>>18812403
>Opposition to cretinism is always warranted. For strategic reasons I don't always display it against fascists. But on this very topic it is more strategic to agree with fa scum on what genuinely comprises fa than to leave liberal shites uneducated (and unknived).

The only people that will ever strike a blow to states and megacorps are on the right so your strategy is pointless. The fact that you'd rather cooperate with liberals than action-minded right wing elements says more than enough.

>>18812478
>pace farm eggs
Jesus mate, the national blood myth doesn't make any sense to a euro without "the east" being the national origin. Read your romans in a bad translation from a bad school like the nazis did.

>>18812465
>category error
We're fighting over a valid definition and you're trying an argumentum ad verecundiam?

Are you munted cunt because you better be on your fifth longie? Back in my school that's when heterosexuality was authorised amongst classicists. It got Gravesean. Not all undergraduates lived.

>>18812480
>The only people that will ever strike a blow to states and megacorps are on the right
Hungarian revolution of 1956.

>>18812494
>Are you munted cunt because you better be on your fifth longie? Back in my school that's when heterosexuality was authorised amongst classicists. It got Gravesean. Not all undergraduates lived.
Schizo

>>18812496
You'll never make any move that matters because you only ever act as a group and iberal institutions have turned you all into herd animals. Spreading awareness on social media doesn't count for anything.

>>18812494
>the national blood myth doesn't make any sense to a euro without "the east" being the national origin.
What the fuck are you talking about? National blood has nothing to do with anything in the east. You even quoted the "Drang nach Osten" which itself had nothing to do with revanchism - it was just the intent to expand Germans into the east without any historic justification. Where are you getting your history from, seriously? You're the most deluded person in the thread with the amount of baseless, unfounded claims you're making. Jetzt reden wir auf Deutsch, damit ich dein Missverständnis besser verstehen könnte. Naja, lass mich raten, du kannst kein gutes Deutsch. Hör auf mit deiner schlechten Interpretation der deutschen Vergangenheit.

>>18812513
I'm a fucking libcom, stop praising me.

>>18812515
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0099.tlg001.perseus-eng2:7.1

Go fuck yourself in your homeland. I hope the bourgeois police arrest you for your public nazism.

>>18812528
You're a seething grass-fed retard.

>>18812181
Fascism would not have worked in the long term. For a few years, it's easy to larp, to say that the interest of the bourgeoisie and the proletariat are the same, that they must work toward a same goal together. However, if fascism had won WWII, after a few decades, it would have probably tired people. Indeed, class antagonism can be temporarily put aside, with a nice project, nice Hitler speeches, the war. After a longer time, it would most likely have reappeared. Swatiskas flags or not, the proletariat and the owner's of the means of production, don't have the same interests, after all.

>>18812528
Where the fuck did the Nazis cite Strabo as their justification for the invasion of Russia?

>>18812494
Anon, there's a difference between saying schizo nonsense for the sake of sarcasm and screwing around. And then there's saying schizo nonsense and ACTUALLY believing it. I feel bad for you anon.

>>18812552
>what is a national origin myth foremost in German Youth Culture
My interlocutor is a dumb as fucken bricks cunt for 400 alex.

>>18812536
Because as we all know the revolutionary mood and spirit of class struggle is at all time high in the capitalist countries now, and was even worse in New Deal era USA(with the ND being more radical version of what Mussolini did in Italy), right?

>>18812298
>Academia agrees with leftists
>Government agrees with leftists
>Corpos agree with leftists
>"If I say that a middle schooler is smarter than him, it will put him to shame!"
Goddamn nu-leftism is a fucking meme.

>>18812572
Still waiting for you to cite the Nazis' national origin justification of Barbarossa... Just stop responding if you have no evidence.

Reminder that Hitler "privatized" industries by putting them in the hands of trusted party members, and they made sure that the nation took it's share even though they called it extortion. These international corporations and bought politicans are all your doing. He never would have allowed something like this to happen.

>>18812536
Class antagonism has been absent for most of history. It's the exception rather than the rule. It only really came to a head after the 17-1800s due to abhorrent working conditions and industrial capitalism. Of course, who is to say that the fascists would've rectified these conditions; but the conditions are not the rule nevertheless, on a historic time scale. Most people are content being slaves in their natural state (so long as they are not grossly mistreated), because at most that's what they are.

>"The common folk are primed for slavery of every kind"
- Nietzshe

>>18812624
Exactly, that's why chuds keep coping by saying that the Nazis were "sOciAliSt".
They weren't. De jure, perhaps. De facto, of course not.

>>18812630
>It only really came to a head after the 17-1800s
Not really. Spartacus. Jesus Christ. The middle age peasant revolts.
Today, class struggle still is alive. In the 2010s, in the west, i can name the spannish Los indignados, Occupy wall street, the yellow vests.
As long as class struggle will be alive, the proletariat will have a chance to overthrow the bourgeoisie.
>Most people are content being slaves
Most people, sure. Let's say 80% are slaves. 20% probably aren't. And don't want to play ball with the current "system". However, the current duality between Capitalists/proletariat doesn't give a place for those 20% that are not slaves. Indeed, the Capitalist "elite", is something less than 0.1%.
So, if we want an harmonious society, we would need something that satisfy the 20% that are not slaves, but, in the wage slavery mode of production (Capitalism), those are treated like slaves.
Most of this website are of those 20%.

>>18812612
the fa, ladies and gentlemen

>>18812712
>The middle age peasant revolts.
Didn't occur because of class antagonism in the meaningful sense, just the occasional tyrannical lord who over asserted his right to taxation (which would mean essentially taxing peasants to the point where they can barely sustain themselves - again something which did not happen all that often, because otherwise the peasant population would've died off eventually anyway). They were also very rare occurrences in general, and especially if you go back further to, eg, Rome or ancient Greece. Most of these peasant revolts, especially the very large ones, were actually religious in origin during the Middle Ages. (Naturally Marxists try to reduce everything to material conditions though, so that religious differences and dissent can somehow be reduced to socio-economic deprivation. When these arguments are brought up I just stop bothering because of how absurd it is).
>Today, class struggle still is alive.
Yeah, no shit, because people can't stop beating a dead horse even though Pareto already refuted the idea that equality is possible or even inherent in nature. Class struggle today is just about class egoism, in Stirner's sense, using what power they have to attain what they can get. The ideals of communism and socialism are all gone to the wind. Like Nietzsche also said, "the proletariat will become the bourgeoisie."

>>18812630
>Class antagonism has been absent for most of history
bruh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_the_Orders

>>18812375
>>18812398
Didn't bourgeois jews and middle class leftists all leave germany as hitler came to power? wasnt hitler himself formerly part of the working class? tell me, who were these "bourgeois" who benefited from the revolution in germany?

>>18812775
You're aware that plebs could be rich landowners, right? Especially in the early Republic. It was a matter of political rights, not economic conflict, because plebs could be conscripted into armies at any time without being able to tend to their properties (and thus support themselves), at the behest of the patricians. It's admittedly an example of the conflict between political privilege through heredity and lack thereof (caste system), it's just not something that is generally normal nor economically motivated. This is probably a better example to cite than the Middle Age revolts, though. However, also a pretty controversial historical event, because there is no solid evidence it actually occurred (sources from the time itself) as it's been reported. It was likely more of a formal agreement between the two castes rather than an actual conflict.

>>18812712
the average worker does not support your cause not becuase they are content to being slaves, but because your cause is in essence, anti-traditional and anti-religious. there is an obvious disconnect between Marx and the average factory worker when he says "religion is the opium of the masses". Marx was proven wrong by his own legacy. Socialism became a religion because religion must exist and has always existed. Socialism as an ideology was perfected by Hitler. In fact, it was so successful, the whole world's bourgeoisie including the in the Soviet Union, all had to oppose him and his "ally" states to cut the ideology down.

>no mention of Gentile
>no mention of actual idealism
>no mention of ''ex-marxists'' like Werner Sombart because dirty anglo right wingers can't even read Marx
>no mention of Fichte or his takes on freedom
>no mention of Syndicalism
>fa
>only pol and redditpol ''Adorno tier'' lib left larp so far
Absolute state of /lit/ political threads.
I fucking hate anglos and their ''culture war'' so much

>>18812440
Read Heidegger,Gilles Deleuze,Baudiliard,and Alain de Benoist if you want to have more nuanced views on that
Deleuze and Baudiliard don't really write againts the ''best arguments'' for Fascism despite mentioning it a lot,and I generally don't like how the Fascist regimes acted IRL so I don't find myself particularly annoyed by them.
Heidegger's Natioal Socialism isn't the same that the German party historically practiced,and I generally agree with his ''critique'' of it.
The Iranian revolution also seems to have had Heideggerian/Post-modern influence,but I've only recently started trying to seriously understand Iranian politics and the intellectuals relevant to the Iranian revolution,so I'm not sure how consistent the philosophy behind it is.
>Isn't it a way of reclaiming an inherent identity that's been sold as a commodity for years?
It can be,sure.
>>18812630
If you're really interested in that read Sombart's Der moderne Kapitalismus,he was a full Marxist when he wrote this.

>>18812759
>so that religious differences and dissent can somehow be reduced to socio-economic deprivation.
Well it seems that most of the time, most people won't fight to the death for religious dissent. Religion is just a mask behind there are material claims.
>The ideals of communism and socialism are all gone to the wind.
And yet, it's still here. On this very board, IRL, on the streets. Sure it's perhaps a small minority. But until it disappeared completely, you cannot affirm that it's dead.
>even though Pareto already refuted the idea that equality is possible or even inherent in nature.
Like i said, Pareto is the 80/20 law. In current Capitalism, it's not the 80/20 law. More like the 99.9%/0.01% law.

>>18812852
i suppose if you... classify, heh, class struggle as being strictly motivated by economic/financial reasons, you are correct. but i'm more interested in this part of your post
>also a pretty controversial historical event, because there is no solid evidence it actually occurred (sources from the time itself) as it's been reported
are you referring to a specific event here or the whole centuries-spanning conflict? because i'm quite open to the idea that historcial "facts" we take for granted can have a very weak basis in actual contemporary sources, but i'd never thought of the roman class struggle as such. what about the gracchi, the patricians vs. the optimates, the secession of the plebs, etc.?

>>18812810
The bourgeois not jews.
Go search Dusseledorf speech Hitler, 1932.

>>18812860
You didn't read Marx. Engels was a traditionalist who wanted to go back to the primitive Gens. Marx believed in God, and criticized institutionalized religion, not the concept of God himself.
You talk about about something you have not read the primary material, and it shows.

>>18812298
>"the profit motive is pointing us this way
except it isn't. it makes them loose profit. fact of the matter is there are ideologues in high positions who push it hard and support their lefty supporters.

I mean, isn't it common for the left to conflate the center and the right (compatibility of liberalism and fascism); for the right the left and the center (compatibility of marxism and liberalism); and for the center the left and right (both just as bad, horseshoe)?

>>18812945
Perhaps, but that is not the Marx that history remembers

>>18812945
>>18813025
What I mean is that Socialism had evolved past God after Lenin and in many ways, past Marx. It does not matter whether Marx believed in God or not, the problem is that he is anti-tradition and in turn, anti-proletariat

>>18812177

>>18812810
>tell me, who were these "bourgeois" who benefited from the revolution in germany?
The Harzburger Front industrialists. IG Farben and Krupp executives, etc.

>>18813065
And did they exploit the working class as ((foreign)) industrialists did in Germany before?

>>18812860
>there is an obvious disconnect between Marx and the average factory worker when he says "religion is the opium of the masses".
My factory workers in the world today are probably Chinese and most of them are atheists.

https://youtu.be/agBm5y3F3Ck?t=29

>>18813076
Oh yeah. They also sent millions of them to their deaths in a giant war because they were driven by lust for imperial greed and conquest. Then they got their teeth smashed in by communists.

>>18813094
>tfw not driven by lust for greed
i'm not gonna make it am i bros..........

>>18813076
Yes.

>>18813094
well. the empires and capitalists and communists all united to crush germany, so it really makes me think. if all those forces are against you, what does that say? why i'd go so far as to say the ussr played a reactionary role in this conflict, wouldn't you agree? and it motivated its troops by drawing upon evocative nationalistic imagery with reference to the fatherland to boot

>>18813127
It makes you think that the anglo empire was threatened by the german empire. And wanted to destroy it, once and for all. As simple as that.

>>18812254
wtf are you retards on about, they overturned the republic?

>>18812243
Well you said it so it must be true. stfu retard

>>18813136
ah. how fortunate for us students of the period that ww2 was such a simple conflict between two empires

>>18813127
>if all those forces are against you, what does that say?
It says to me that they were good at making a lot of enemies.

>why i'd go so far as to say the ussr played a reactionary role in this conflict, wouldn't you agree? and it motivated its troops by drawing upon evocative nationalistic imagery with reference to the fatherland to boot
Well they were invaded by the Nazis. Imagine if the United States was invaded by a foreign country and there were mechanized death squads with skulls on their uniforms barging through people's towns. What's "reactionary" about patriotism and defending of one's homeland against an invading army? I don't understand this.

>>18812501
>social reject
Why does the left always project?

>>18812298
>No one except the dumbest rightists think the behavior of corporations means anything except "the profit motive is pointing us this way."
When high schoolers can get their lives ruined for saying nigger, institutional racism doesn't exist. Entities far bigger than you or I could imagine come down on literal children to dismantle their lives piece by piece for wrongthink. You leftists are living in a perpetual schizophrenic delusion.

>>18812902
>>only pol and redditpol ''Adorno tier'' lib left larp so far
This,anglos were a mistake and these threads tend to be filled by incels (leftypol users and lefties,/his/ users, and /pol/ schizos)
Literature wasn't discussed at all so far
These people go around every day searching for threads to ruin and posts to seethe at,the /pol/ schizos were annoying but the redditpol users with their feminine writing style even more so

>>18813167
>It says to me that they were good at making a lot of enemies.
is that so? and what are your thoughts on other regimes which are seemingly good at making a lot of enemies, as decreed by the western powers, like iran, iraq, afghanistan, syria, north korea, china? do you hold them in the same contempt and take the side of the west?
>What's "reactionary" about patriotism and defending of one's homeland
absolutely nothing, i take it you're an outspoken patriot and nationalist in your own life?

>>18813188
what is wrong with discussing ideas without namedropping authors and titles?

>>18813196
>do you hold them in the same contempt and take the side of the west?
No. I want peace for all countries in the world. I am against war and invading other countries.

>absolutely nothing, i take it you're an outspoken patriot and nationalist in your own life?
Nationalism in my country is like an excuse for militarism and imperialism so I am against nationalism here and support defeatism.

>>18813209
>No. I want peace for all countries in the world. I am against war and invading other countries.
but based on what principles? ostensibly, according to our friends in the ruling class and media, those regimes are racist/sexist/oppress their own people. surely that's enough justification for you to declare them worthy of toppling?
>Nationalism in my country is like an excuse for militarism and imperialism so I am against nationalism here and support defeatism.
good on you if you're american. do you think you would have been pro-war if you were living in 1930s and 1940s america?

>>18813084
...as a result of communism. which is why many of them have lost the will to live

Another day on /lit/ - Literature

>>18813188
read mein kampf, there faggot you fucking happy you spastic nigger?

>>18812213
>reassertion of the nation as race
Not essential or specific to fascism.
The rest can be applied to an absurd variety of political movements, including much of decolonisation.

>>18812181
In modern leftist parlance, it's basically any form of authoritarianism. The likes of Reich and Foucault pretty much exemplify this usage of the word (i.e. basically nothing to do with historical fascism).

>>18813219
>surely that's enough justification for you to declare them worthy of toppling?
No. I don't think the U.S. government has any right to tell other countries what kind of values they should promote for themselves. That's up to the people in those countries.

>do you think you would have been pro-war if you were living in 1930s and 1940s america?
I hope so and I think would've been. I think the war against fascism was a just war if there ever was one. But I can't think of any wars since WWII that the U.S. has waged that have been just.

>>18812298
>coronations are more powerful than state
>own the politicians and influence the laws in their favor
>thinks it doesnt matter
>calls someone else dumb
This is every leftist you will ever meet. Stupider than dogshit but thinks they are a genius.

>>18813219
>but based on what principles?
Oh you asked what principles, but IO think some good ones for relations between states in the world are:

+ Mutual respect for territorial integrity and sovereignty.

+ Mutual non-aggression / non-interference in each other's internal affairs.

+ Equality and mutual benefit.

+ Peaceful coexistence. Oppose the imperialist policies of aggression and war.

>>18813231
>>18813245
Stop pretending to be a /pol/ users
>>18813206
>what is wrong with
I simply find these seethers repugnant?
>why
Because this is the exact type of ''political'' discussion you see on /his/ or even worse /b/
Leftists larpers and /pol/ contrarians
>discussing ideas
Yes,this thread is filled with people seething at things they do not understand and read nothing about.
>>18813249
What political ideology do you L A R P as well read kind stranger?

>>18812923
>Well it seems that most of the time, most people won't fight to the death for religious dissent
...In the modern world, yes, but you have no idea how some people really thought. In fact, even in the modern world, you just need to look at the Islamic martyrs. These are actually more extreme than historic Muslims probably were, but it gives you an example of the strength of real belief (even if the modern ISIS nuts are genuinely indoctrinated in a basically ideological fashion). The Taliban and al-Qaeda are probably better examples because they are not ideologically indoctrinated in the same way, they are genuinely religious in most cases.
> In current Capitalism, it's not the 80/20 law. More like the 99.9%/0.01% law.
Was your point that there will likely be a reset back to the statistical norm? I can't really disagree on that point.
>>18812945
Engels was not a traditionalist, but he was a nationalist in some sense. Nationalism and traditionalism are opposed to each other, because the former is a modernist ideology which has been instrumental in undermining traditional forms. I recall Engels stating that supporting nationalist movements, if there is no other option, will always help the socialist movement. Marx's criticism of religious authority is equally as disastrous. There is no tradition in a world which is devoid of proper, hierarchical form.

>>18813235
>No. I don't think the U.S. government has any right to tell other countries what kind of values they should promote for themselves. That's up to the people in those countries.
on this we agree 100%
>But I can't think of any wars since WWII that the U.S. has waged that have been just.
here's the thing though, knowing how rotten and manipulative your country's been throughout history doesn't it strike you as odd that ww2 was THE ONE JUST WAR? many people thought vietnam or korea or afghanistan were just too, simply because they were fooled.
>>18813249
here's the thing though. disingenuous people can use rhetoric to justify any war within your framework
>desert storm was justified because muh kuwait
>vietnam was justified because of muh democracy
>invading nigeria is justified because boko haram
right?

>>18813282
>Yes,this thread is filled with people seething at things they do not understand and read nothing about.
if anon tells me what his opinion is and i reply with my own opinion and we try to reach a middle ground, we don't need to have read guy de board's treatise on fascism

>>18813383
nothing wrong with two retards arguing if they wish to

every single fascist thread just devolves into commies screeching about the bourgeois and how the capitalists control the fascists and a bunch of vague right wingers liking fascism because its nationalistic without actually understanding what it really is and the few people who actually do understand fascism are usually ignored

>>18813400
thank you for the magnonimity

>>18813425
>the few people who actually do understand fascism are usually ignored
give us a readers digest edition of this thread and point those understanders out

>>18813435
6th reply is the only one who seems to have a serious grasp of fascism

>>18813374
Germany and Japan declared war on the United States, along with other countries. That's the main difference. I'm not a pacifist but Nazi Germany was an aggressive, expansionist, imperialist state. Forget all this blah blah blah about "capitalism" and "socialism" and so on and think about that.

>>18813374
Like if you think about it, so fucking what if Nazi Germany was "against the bourgeoisie?" Although it's not like different groups of capitalists don't in fact compete with each other, and there were German capitalists who wanted to gain markets and resources and so forth. But either way, even if Nazi Germany was a the purest socialist state, that doesn't justify invading or declaring war on other countries.

>>18813443
>Nazi Germany was an aggressive, expansionist, imperialist state

This may be true but the only reason they declared war against the Untied States was because Hitler was essentially forced to. He could barely stop his Navy captains from blowing up American convoys and escort ships, the FDR was doing everything he possibly could to antagonize the Axis powers so America could enter the war. Nazi Germany and Hitler had no interest in the western powers (at least for the foreseeable future) and only resorted to war with them when they were forced to by the western powers refusal to allow German attempts at eastern expansion.

>>18813155
The Republic was an illegitimate coup of King Alfonso by communists. It only lasted 8 years so I don't think a restoration of the monarchy would count as one of the criteria for it being fascist. The whole point of Franco was bringing back the monarchy and Catholicism.

>>18813438
>Palingensis doesn't fit any of those so what about palingentic ultranationalism.
i don't get it
>>18813443
here's the thing though. germany had no power to threaten the US or US holdings. japan? sure. but germany? nah. do you think people back then supported tens of thousands of theirs sons, brothers and husbands traveling to another continent and dying over an impotent war declaration? bulgaria, my country, also declared war on the US. do you think the US was threatened by bulgaria? the us responded with bombing our capital and killing our civilians. not military targets, just wanton bombing of the capital with their squadrons who could reach us. is that something you'd have supported? btw decades later, when we became allies of the US and nato, outside of your embassy, you erected a memorial tablet to your dead pilots whom we shot down while they were trying to bomb our women and children. there's your morally superior power.

and speaking of japan, let me pose another question to you. do you think the pacific ocean islands more correctly fall under the US sphere of influence or the japanese, an asian empire's sphere of influence?

>>18813506
read this

https://www.libraryofsocialscience.com/ideologies/resources/griffin-the-palingenetic-core/

>>18813510
looks good, i will. thanks anon

>>18812177
True.

>>18813579
you're late

>>18812243
Fascism is a rightwing dictatorship

>>18812389
It’s actually the truth. When threatened by a people’s movement, the pretend benevolence of the state shows its fangs and turns authoritarian. The US is sinking fast and the security state is getting more and more aggressive as it does.

>>18813585
A woman needs her sleep. If it hadn’t been said already….
Off topic again.

>>18813348
>Engels was not a traditionalist, but he was a nationalist in some sense.
Engels constantly glorifies the primitive gens, in the origin of family. Pages and pages of Gens glorification.
>Taleban
We will see were those talebans will be in 50 years. Most likely those taleban are not talebans because of religious fervor, but because of the archaic nature of the social relation in the Afghan mountains.

>>18813675
>When threatened by a people’s movement, the pretend benevolence of the state shows its fangs and turns authoritarian

This absolutely pretends that "people's movement" cannot become authoritarian. Do not be dishonest by denying this. Even Fascism can, and did, arise from the "people's movement".

>>18813762
>Engels constantly glorifies the primitive gens
You have failed to distinguish between how genii were structured in Roman society. Slaves and lower plebs were generally grouped into totemistic genii with no distinct ancestors; they were considered "beasts of the field" in some sense, whereas the patricians and nobles usually had their own specific gens for their noble families, which was usually a heroic or deified ancestor, which was thought to remain active in their blood until certain ceremonial fires were extinguished or rituals were not maintained.
>Most likely those taleban are not talebans because of religious fervor,
There are Muslims radicalized in modern urban cities, my friend. It has little to do with the location and more to do with attachment to powerful doctrines which have inspired people at an existential level over millennia. The only question, in terms of mass popularity, is whether the doctrines of modern society can eventually supersede the existential power of religious doctrines. Of course, they don't necessarily have to "win" anyone over ideologically, all that is necessary is to placate people and make them too comfortable to want to endanger themselves in any situation. That is enough to placate the herd generally speaking.

>>18812351
>a taxinomy.
not what taxinomy means, stop stealing terms from other disciplines you know nothing of

>>18812403
>it inheres.
also not a word. STOP STEALING biological terms and butchering them

>Capitialism is just Fascism in Growth

>>18813780
If successful, a people’s movement turns democratic, or disperses into the wilds as nomads. But none of that is left really.
Any people’s movement that turns back into a state has been taken over by counterrevolutionary forces. They’ll say they’re the People’s party, they always do. This is always a lie to calm the fools. Understand?

>>18814098
>if my guys end up doing anything that is less than perfect, that means they were subverted by people who are not my guys
classic butters, glad i didn't go to bed before this post was made, comedy gold right here

>>18814156
No, it’s
>if my guys betray us—
Why are you this dumb? Are you trolling?

>>18814177
whatever cutie
you make me laugh with your posts and that makes you heckin valid

>>18812177
Fascism is literally the end result of communism. Look at modern China, a fascist state born out of a communist one.

>>18814593
t. Another American who doesn’t know what communism is

>>18814630
>People’s Republic of China didn’t start out as communist
Explain.