/lit/ - Literature

Christians have been worshiping a Platonic ideal of the supreme creator through the lens of ancient near east writings.

>>18795416
Christian bros… I don’t feel so good…

>>18795531
/thread

Genesis 1:1
>In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.
John 1:1
>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Exodus 3:14
>God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.

>>18795595
Yes, according to the revisionist jews who once used to worship multiple gods

>>18795602
Judges 2:11-12
>And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, and they served Baalim. And they left the Lord the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt: and they followed strange gods, and the gods of the people that dwelt round about them, and they adored them: and they provoked the Lord to anger.
The Jews were monotheistic before they were polytheistic

Abram's name means something to do with the moon goddess, if I remember correctly. I will get the book, thanks.

>>18795416
hahahahahaha

>>18795531
what this anon said
wouldnt have a problem with it if it hasnt been so massively interpreted and been nothing more than a cult like all Abrahamic religions have been

>>18795595
If you read John and don't see that he's ripping off Greek philosophy you shouldn't be posting on /lit/.
>>18795620
>>18795595
And by the way you're quoting scriptures discussing things that didn't happen, that were written hundreds of year after they supposedly happened, and were altered several times. Forgive me if I find them unconvincing.

>>18795648
John 20:29
>Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.

>>18795667
why? I mean, why are they blessed just for belief in him? He is the only one getting anything out of it. Hypothetically, he could bless you. But why doesn't he just leave people alone? Why doesn't he mind his own goddamned business for once in his life?

>>18795667
>God wants you to believe without evidence.
God gave me an intellect, if he didn't want me to use it he should not have given it to me.
Besides, what makes you think that Jesus knew or taught any of the obviously Greek philosophical concepts in the Gospel of John? It is the best gospel precisely because it discarded Jewish ideas.

>>18795678
John 3:16
>For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.
Ephesians 2:1-10
>And you, when you were dead in your offences, and sins, Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of this air, of the spirit that now worketh on the children of unbelief: In which also we all conversed in time past, in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest: But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; Not of works, that no man may glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

>>18795686
John 4:22
>You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews.

>>18795690
yeah, I've read the bible, thanks.
But seriously, why not let us die? If we were created to die, then let us be mortal and die. The only logical conclusion is that we live on after death whatever Jesus says, and he just wants to differentiate the place. He is not giving us life everlasting. He is merely bribing us with a mirage of parables. He himself couldn't describe the afterlife, even after he came back from the dead. He is not being upfront, not at all.

>>18795690
Stop quoting random pieces of scripture and engage in the arguments.
>John 3:16
Why does God want you to believe in him? What does God get from it? Why does belief make one deserving of eternal life? I thought God was a omnibenevolent; why would an omnibenevolent deity such vindictiveness?
>Ephesians
Probably a forgery, and see the above points.

>>18795695
If God is omnibenevolent why does he show favouritism towards the Jews? It makes very little sense. The more reasonable explanation is that the Jews made up Yahweh.

>>18795707
>>18795719
If you don't want eternal life, you don't have to have it. Eternal life is for those who accept it
>>Ephesians
>Probably a forgery, and see the above points.
No
>>18795731
God showed favor to the Jews when they accepted Him, and He showed them no favor when they rejected Him

>>18795731
Because the Jews are his Chosen People, duh. He wanted a Chosen People, and he made them to his specifications. Jews are the result.

>>18795843
>If you don't want eternal life, you don't have to have it.
But you can't NOT get eternal life. If you reject Jesus, you just get eternal life (being tortured in hell). What kind of neo-Pelasgian heresy are you peddling here?

>>18795416
Yahweh is satan in the form of a lizard/dragon. His children 'the seed of the serpent' are charged with taking over the planet via usury. They must crush the nations (the goyim) with Yahweh's help for which they will be given the property of all the nations without having to work and be attended by the kings of the nations (the goyim).

Jesus as a high level Vedic came to try to persuade Yahweh's chosen out of this demonism. He failed and his teachings were twisted and perverted to further weaken the nations (the goyim) whilst yahweh's demonism was abutted to this new religion giving status and prestige to Yahweh's seed.

The worshippers of Yahweh are human/dragon hybrids and their mission is almost complete.

>>18795864
John 3:16
>For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.
The soul perishes in the lake of fire

>>18795531
fpbp

>>18795887
Are you suggesting that damnation is not eternal?

>>18795896
>that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish
Thus the nonbelievers will perish. Damnation is eternal in that it cannot be undone

Start with the Assmann, egyptologist Jan Assmann

>>18795843
Does my rejection of a certain religion mean I don't want eternal life? That makes very little sense.
>God showed favor to the Jews when they accepted Him, and He showed them no favor when they rejected Him
I thought he came only for the lost sheep of Israel? Was that a joke?
>>18795859
Pretty sure this is a joke (in which case it is quite funny) but in the other case, an omnibenevolent deity would be good enough to put his desires aside and not show favouritism, would he not?

>>18795906
Heretical.

>>18795880
Based.

>>18795921
Josue 7:7-12
>And Josue said: Alas, O Lord God, why wouldst thou bring this people over the river Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorrhite, and to destroy us? would God, we had stayed beyond the Jordan as we began. My Lord God, what shall I say, seeing Israel turning their backs to their enemies? The Chanaanites, and all the inhabitants of the land will hear of it, and being gathered together will surround us and cut off our name from the earth: and what wilt thou do to thy great name? And the Lord said to Josue: Arise, why liest thou flat on the ground? Israel hath sinned, and transgressed my covenant: and they have taken of the anathema, and have stolen and lied, and have hidden it among their goods. Neither can Israel stand before his enemies, but he shall flee from them: because he is defiled with the anathema. I will be no more with you, till you destroy him that is guilty of this wickedness.
John 8:44
>You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

>>18795531
fpbp. Whites don't give a shit what it actually says, they interpret it the same way they were gonna interpret it regardless of the content.

>>18795880
their mission is explicitly stated in Deuteronomy and Isiah

>>18795620
>The Jews were monotheistic before they were polytheistic
No evidence for this, except the writings of monotheistic Jews writing centuries later

>>18795416
Reading about the polythestic aspects of ancient Judaism is cool. "Yahweh and His Asherah" inscriptions, etc.

>>18796134
You're right. The Israelites just made up that they were enslaved in Egypt, and led out by HE WHO IS into the land of Canaan because they felt like it

>>18796174
Probably stolen from 'the book of Veles' desu. Judaism is just a made up tapestry from all the things the Vatican managed to suppress in their secret library.

>>18796174
No, but they interpreted (and revised) old documents in light of their present monotheistic beliefs. Bede’s 8th century accounts of the origins and early history of the English nation are not especially accurate, not through mendacity, but a paucity of evidence, and a reliance on legend. In a way that looks bizarre and sectarian to us now, he attributes events which favour his preferred nations and political institutions to the actions of God, not because he is a conceited liar, but because that is what he genuinely believes. The Romans believed themselves descended from Trojans Aeneas and his descendants Romulus and Remus. Should we believe them too?

>>18796228
Aeneas's grave was found in Creccio in Italy. I've seen it. The inscription is Estruscan. Russians can read Etruscan with ease. This info is nowhere on the internet.

>>18796239
Is this some kind of we wuz thing I can’t find much info about the relationship of Russian and Etruscan online.

>>18796174
Correct.

>>18796259
it's some kind of schizo thing

>>18796259
>>18796261
Yeah it's definitely something you shouldn't look into. Forget about it. It's not for you.

>>18796259
https://stanislavs.org/uncovering-slavicrussian-language-traces-in-the-european-history/
"the name “Etruscan” (Этpyccкий) is enough. As with many Russian words, it’s a composite: “Et” (“Эт”) means “this is/these are”, while “ruscan” (“pyccкий”) means, well, “Russian”. You can’t get a clearer message than that!"

>>18795416
>Reading propaganda
oh nonononono

>>18795416
Yahweh is Slavic "manifested", that is. "yahvlenni", the god of War and Thunder, the one who would later be called Perumal and Donar.
The thing is that the Levite caste was made up of Scythian nomads, i.e. the Slavs, who worshiped the seven highest deities and the most important of them - the Father-Heaven.
Even the name God Odin in Slavic means "One God", Odin = odin (1) according to Slavic calculus.

>>18795917
Assmann?

>>18795531
>christians have been worshipping a compound of greek pedarest's fantasies

>>18796451
>ethnic group literally called "Slav[e]s"
>aggresively engages in wewuzism
Can't make this stuff up

>>18795973
It's kinda like those african tribes that basically replaced their tribal god with the christian God and literally keep doing everything else the same as they did for centuries beforehand, then?

>>18796707
it's not from Slaves you retard, kill yourself. It comes from the Slavic word for word "Slovo".

>>18795416
>atheist midwit reads one book and makes sweeping, unsupported claims
Day's thesis is pure conjecture. The strongest evidence suggests Israel as nominally monotheistic but being influenced by polytheistic neighbors, which the Bible describes.
>>18795531
This is another assertion that sounds plausible to pseuds on /lit/, but ignores fundamental differences between Plato's abstract ideal and the Biblical conception of God as a person.
https://rushdoonyradio.org/2020/02/27/does-plato-deserve-our-respect-and-does-he-have-anything-to-teach-us/
>>18796155
The Asherah was a ceremonial platform.

So based?

>>18796776
>The Asherah was a ceremonial platform.
Asherah was a mother goddess whose was worshiped in ancient Israel/Judah. Back in uni I took a class on ancient Israel and "Asherah" referred to the goddess, who was Yahweh's consort. I looked it up and apparently there is a object called asherah as well, so you might b right on that.

>>18796707
MUST. STOP. GOYIM. FROM. WAKING. UP.

>>18796759
What was the old word for Serbia? It was Servia wasn't it?

>>18796397
meds

>>18796809
>who was Yahweh's consort
There was never any such association with Yahweh. She was the consort to El, who's name the Israelites borrowed as a generic term for God rather than using the name Yahweh.

>>18796864
>There was never any such association with Yahweh
Other than all of the associations with Yahweh, of course, such as the ones where she's stated as Yahweh's consort.
>B-but baal and el-
Are both terms the ancient Jews used to refer to Yahweh, yes. Israel was polytheistic, the autistic centuries-later narratives created by scribes are not reflective of reality.

You don't believe these people about history that took place a century ago, why would you believe them about history that took place over two millennia ago?

>>18796776
>This is another assertion that sounds plausible to pseuds on /lit/, but ignores fundamental differences between Plato's abstract ideal and the Biblical conception of God as a person.

So you're just going to ignore centuries of patristic philosophy?

>>18796878
Of course he is. He's trying to defend the Chosen People, he's not really interested in philosophy or religion, or even Christianity.

>>18796887
Even if that was the case it's retarded to believe that when even jews were doing this during the hellenistic era, the most famous of them being Philo of Alexandria.

>>18796876
>Other than all of the associations with Yahweh
As a ceremonial platform, not a consort
>Are both terms the ancient Jews used to refer to Yahweh
Which is indicative of later corruption, not original polytheism

>>18795416


jews have been following an egyptian this whole time

>>18796878
>So you're just going to ignore centuries of patristic philosophy?
The Fathers made reference to platonic ideals as useful illustrations given the atmosphere they lived in, but to act like their concept of God was wholly platonic is just absurd.
>>18796887
>He's trying to defend the Chosen People
Jews are not "the Chosen people", nor where they ever. Ancient Israelites weren't Khazars or Edomites.

God is ultimately nameless as to cast a name unto him is to project a form onto that which is formless. In the end we are ultimately one as you cannot divide the infinite into a finite soul. It's just not rational.

>>18796909
>the largest religions in the west exist because some pharaoh wanted to troll some priests

>>18796909
Why would you trust that coomer kike?

>>18796914
>Jews are not "the Chosen people", nor where they ever. Ancient Israelites weren't Khazars or Edomites.
debunked theory, schizo. read the gene studies

>>18796900
Well, other than all of the stuff about her being a Goddess of course. One associated with Lions, kingship, and fertility (symbolized by a tree).

I'm not sure why you're doing this, you love Qabbalah and this shit is all over Qabbalah. I mean, come the fuck on it literally posits that Yahweh is married to a fucking tree dude.

>>18796941
>you love Qabbalah
Kabbalah is another pagan corruption. You are trying vainly to posit later idolatry as the original religion.
>>18796939
The Jews themselves admit taht they are edomites

>>18796909
Not even the most controversial opinion in that book
>>18796917
Yes
>>18796921
Why are you so defensive of a religion started by people you hate?

>>18797000
Edomites didn't write the Bible.

>>18795566
>/thread
HAHAHAH
YOU WISHED

>>18795531
No, you morons have erased your own history, myths. Cursed your pagan ancestors and worship a je wish god. The root is him. That platonic BS was solely to get you midwits on board and then they got to the basics again.

>>18796952
Low IQ

>>18796776
The Asherah was a ceremonial pole or tree but it was also a goddess who was the consort of El. There are direct parallels in Ugaritic mythology where Athirat is the consort of Ilu.

>>18795531
I don't remember Plato describing the form in any way resembling the petty, tribal, genocidal, circumcision obsessed God of the Bible.

>>18797859
larpagan seethe

God I fucking hate Slavs, bunch of wewuzzing white niggers.

I think this book is mentioned in the new tao li kino

>>18795602
>Yes, according to the revisionist jews who once used to worship multiple gods
..Yes?

Everyone worshiped pantheons. Before becoming the chosen people, they were no different than anyone else. Then they were selected and seperated out and told YOU ONLY WORSHIP ME THE ONE TRUE GOD. That's literally how it goes. What's the problem?

>>18795731
>If God is omnibenevolent why does he show favouritism towards the Jews?
If this was really the case, He wouldn't have come to us in the form of Jesus. Who declares salvation is NOT just for the Jews. The Jews were just high on their own farts, and he even said the first would be last and the last would be first. For the Jews scorned the god that gave them so much and then put His son to death for coming to tell them to stop being devils. The gentiles are now the first and the Jews are now the last.

How is that for favoritism?

He condemned them for practices the Jews still do, by the way.

>>18795951
How do you figure? Cause it makes you uncomfortable?

>>18795960
Explain further. For me. A brainlet.

>>18797049
This.

The real joke of this thread is Jesus specifically dunked on the Jews, told them they were way off based, called them devils, and laid down the true way to reach God. He called all their holy rituals out as fake morality they used as replacement for not doing evil things. He called out their worship of their precious building instead of God. He called out their money grubbing disguised as charity. Then said there should be no priests or teachers except God, the one true teacher.

He told them off for everything they fucking stood for. The only thing he carried forward is Moses and his commandments, but the Jews of that era SCORNED Moses and his commandments. Jesus called them out on it.

He was murdered for revealing their lies.

..The other joke is most self declared Christians in the past 2000 years do the same things Jesus called the Pharisees sons and daughters of devils for. The entire structure of the modern Church included. Everything down to every letter Jesus spoke as UNAMBIGUOUSLY WRONG has been reinstated as the public face of Christianity.

If you want to know Christ, you must read up on Him yourself. Read His words from His lips. No other. Find the truth they try to hide from you.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>18798902
>If you want to know Christ, you must read up on Him yourself. Read His words from His lips. No other.
Alright let me just teleport to 1st century Canaan

>chantards LARPing as Christians

>>18798937
>autheist in shambles because atheism produced nothing of value

>>18798397
Yes, this has been the cause of extreme mental gymnastics - see the retarded concept of 'divine pedagogy'.

>>18798972
What, circumcision? That's your counter-argument?

>>18798929
The new Testament, dumbass.

They couldn't simply erase His words themselves. That is functionally impossible, and being that blatant would instantly mark them for others. The tactic is to distract you from reading them instead. Listen to your ranting hellfire preacher and his doctrine of hate. So now you spread hate. Or maybe you like the flavor of 'Nice Jesus who never made anyone uncomfortable" instead. So now you lack the power to even live by what Jesus expects of you. Both are dismantled by simply reading the New Testament yourself. Pay attention to what Jesus says and does and how he conducts himself. It's right there recorded and unchanged. He said in his own words. He gave us everything in advance. There's no more to know. Just follow the path He laid and do your best on it.

Just remember. If it contradicts Him or pretends to know His mind, it's false. By nature it is false. Even those depicted after his death laying their own hot takes, that the Church now worships as Christ instead of Christ, are fake.

Red Letter Christianity. Anything not from the man himself is just from mortal lips. Use caution with approaching it.

>>18798989
How do you know said man was actually divine

>>18795880
Please answer the following as I ask in good faith.
How do these people who are a part of some grand scheme spanning many many generations and slow planning even bother to partake when they would be dead before they can taste the fruit their work bears?

I used to be right into this reptilian and conspiracy stuff myself but unless you assume the elite are not ever actually dying or are psychologically bug people then how the fuck does it make sense for half of the NWO grand conspiracy spanning across many generatiosn etc make any fucking sense.

>>18798989
Which translation?

>>18799010
book of mormon

>>18799029
No way, fag.

>>18795531
>Platonic ideal of the supreme creator
3=1

No.

>>18798982
>circumcision
I did not mention circumcision; that was the poster I replied to. Divine pedagogy is the 'idea' that God had to do all the Old Testament genocide and stuff to teach humanity to appropriately worship him (or something like that). No one has answered any of the other posts in this thread where it was asked why God needs worship anyway.

>>18799042
This is Red Letter Christianity.

If you do not want to take my advice I could try to convince you. Or maybe you would rather remain ignorant.

>>18799010
There's a lot of adequate ones. I'm using an online version of the New English Translation. It doesn't matter as long as the meaning is preserved and you can understand it. Using secondary sources that help give further, historical, context as you go along can also help a lot. Like knowing WHAT Jesus is condemning among the Jewish rituals kind of needs you to understand what those rituals were.

I use a site called studylight.org for the ease of getting those compiled in one place. There's tons you can go through line by line. Which gets much faster over time when you already understand the context. The site also has other versions of the bible all free. Which you can set to reference each line to the other versions of that line all at once. To see how translations compare.

Literal Godsend.

>>18798999
How do I put this? The best measure of truth is a measure of productivity. When you can't get an inside line on the raw mechanics of something, you can still measure things by relative productivity. Consider it a more sophisticated version of 'does it work when I do this'. If you genuinely give it a try, what happens? Done accurately in good faith? The amoung of things I can get done in my life is incredible compared to before, and that keeps increasing in pace as I continue to double down even among intellectual doubts. No other methodology in the world has done this for me.

I started years ago just going through the motions after reading an intellectual appeal about heeding ancient knowledge and metaphors that solve social problems we STILL HAVE. I treated them as fine if most of it is just human experience stored as metaphor. So I followed the methods by rote even thought I couldn't understand how they'd even fucking help.

Yet.. they did. Massively. So I kept going. Every step I kept going was another reason I could not keep denying there's more than metaphor. Even when I simply can't figure something out, guiding by the founding principle worked. Now what is left but to admit it's real? No other way to walk is structured like this in the whole world. I've tried.. many. This is the one that has long term results that don't fade away. The experiment ends up the same no matter how many times I repeat it.

Not admitting it would make me nothing but an animal. Bereft of both faith AND intellect.

>>18798989
>The new Testament, dumbass.
That's not his words from his lips you low IQ moron. That's someone else citing him. You don't know if it's true or not.

>>18799048
So is that your question? Why God needs to be worshipped? Because everyone has to work as one by sharing the same goals and truth and god.

>>18799089
There are plenty of methods to know if the scholars were talking mad shit or not. If they were simply fabricating or not. This is a very old debate and it ends the same way. The proof stands. It is very unlikely these are simply forged documents. And again, the clearest indication of truth is it's productivity. Does it work and how well? Follow the words. They work. Your productivity as a person, in all facets of life, increases. Follow the methods. The methods are potent and consistent. If you won't even trust constant reanalysis of their authenticity using historical records, you can at least have the INTELLECTUAL HONESTY to admit if the methods laid out by Christ work nor not.

I've experienced it and they work. Intellectual honesty compels me to admit it. Further, that honesty must note this man and his potent, psychologically consistent, doctrine also claimed to be the SON OF GOD. Not in metaphor. In truth. It would be highly suspect of me to ignore this one point out of convenience and keep the rest. Intellectually empty. At some point you must admit something is there or just walk away and be content to find your path by only your own power and mind. Given Jesus also stated what is on the line for doing that, I'd hesitate at the prospect.

But then I've come to realize some people literally do not want life eternal. They actually just want to die and do it their way. Which is.. I don't know. Good for them, I guess?

>>18798397
>>18795531
Zoroastrianism is a richer tradition than Cuckstianity and Pisslam. In some texts, Ahura Mazda is described as a qualitative dimension sort of like Hinduism's Satcitananda. The main difference is Zoroastrianism tends to lean more towards dualistic explanations whereas Hinduism is more non-dual. I respect both regardless.
Christianity cannot be reconciled with European identity, and likewise, Islam cannot be reconciled with Persian identity. I do not acknowledge the existence of a Christian "European" or Muslim "Persian". Every single Abrahamist is better off dead.

>>18799059
>>18799114
I'm happy that it's worked for you anon, however, given that people have similar experiences with every other religion as well, you can, I hope, understand our scepticism about this as a means of verifying a religion's truth claims. There are other people who have "tried" Christianity, found it wanting, and then blossomed under Islam or Buddhism. Your means of identifying the true are identical, but one man is led to error (and perhaps perdition) and the other to salvation. Even if the sincere believer in the false creed goes to heaven, the sameness of his and the Christian's experience (that of being edified by one particular religious praxis, and not another one) gives sceptical spectators no way of discerning between the two religions.

The Gospels are not "forged" documents -- though certain elements, like the longer ending to Mark, and the story of the adulterous woman, are later interpolations. There are parts of the New Testament that are forgeries, such as several letters falsely attributed to Paul but not authored by him. But with the Gospels, the point is not that any wilful deception took place. It's just that, from our point of view, there's no better reason to believe the testimonies of the miracles described in them than there is to believe in the miracles attributed to Buddha, or to certain ancient Greeks, or to the auspices and omens associated with the births of even depraved Roman emperors (talking crows, etc). People often say that the early Christians would never have gone through martyrdom etc. with anything less than complete certainty in the divine nature of Christ, but there are several examples of mass religious cognitive dissonance in the modern day: the Seventh Day Adventists, who number in the millions, are the descendants of a failed apocalyptic movement who, when the day of rapture passed by without any event, invented copes to explain why it had not happened. There's also the Hasidic Jews who still believe Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the Messiah and is either not really dead or will come back any day now. And all the "witnesses" to the miraculous nature of the Book of Mormon, even those who had left the Church of the Latter Day Saints, continued to vouch for the book's miraculous authenticity for the rest of their lives. Some of them were even killed for being Mormons.

There are a few notable contradictions between the Gospels too, like how Judas died, and how the Field of Blood got its name, and who was at the tomb, and where the Resurrected Jesus stayed, and for how long, etc.

>>18799097
Why does everyone have to 'work as one'? Work on what? I do not see any great work that must be completed. The universe seems to have no great goal.

>>18799161
>Why does everyone have to 'work as one'?
To be stronger so they can survive
>Work on what?
Surviving
> I do not see any great work that must be completed.
Doesn't matter what you see
>The universe seems to have no great goal.
Don't care what the universe seems to you

>>18795416
Completely false. All these other gods nothing more than fragmented and mutated memories and ideas of the true God. It's pretty obvious that there has always been only On God.

>>18799180
>Be stronger so they can survive
I hate to break it to you but the universe is dying slowly. Survival is a pointless, and ultimately useless, quest. If this is the 'great work' , then we have failed before beginning.
Besides, I see no reason to regard death as somehow worse than life - I would think as a Christian that you would welcome it?
>Doesn't matter
My point was that this goal is not obvious and requires an argument. The knowledge of the 'great work' is not written on our minds at the moment of birth, nor are there great signs from God telling us what to do. Unless you would argue that the desire for survival is the innate knowledge of this 'great work', which I admit would follow.

>>18799207
> Survival is a pointless, and ultimately useless
Then kill yourself

>>18799203
Why is it obvious? You could say that existence must have only one creator, but does that mean that their are no other gods? In polytheistic systems the Gods have children, and they are Gods in their own right, although they created nothing.

>>18799212
Why should I? Dying is also pointless. My point was that this 'great work' is futile.

>>18795531
>>18795646
>>18795648
>>18795686
This "ripping of from the greeks" is highly overstated and is an examples of the wishful slanders levelled against enemies of God. For example the idea of the logos is apparent to anyone who thought deeply enough about the universe. Would you say the the chinese ripped of from the greeks because the comcept of the dao is so similar to that of the logos? The greeks only managed to glean a truth that was there before them and Christ was that truth.

>>18799222
It's futile for you because you're soulless. The rest of us feel it and pursue it. No one cares what you do

>>18799154
>There are other people who have "tried" Christianity
Define tried.

I am a very harsh critic of Christianity in it's current public form. As said earlier, it does the exact things the Pharisees were dunked on for point for point. Christ himself said they were wrong. Then those in his name pick up the mantle the Jewish sect was called DEVILS for. They do any number of things to steal the potency of the words. Largely by simple admittance. As a lot of the potent parts would directly condemn their church and it's power utterly without ambiguity. Erasing the truth would be too obvious so they distract and build reliance on THEIR words instead.

And their methods are not the methods handed down by Christ. OF COURSE THEY DO NOT WORK. They bear no similarity except borrowing His name.

>and then blossomed under Islam or Buddhism
I have trouble finding versions of Buddhism that aren't just the empty platitude versions, honestly, but it is something on my mind.

Christ said there is only one unforgivable sin. Turning your back on the Holy Spirit. Christ himself said you can refuse Christ and be forgiven. He also laid out what kind of people God wants. It's not professing love of him with your mouth. You are to bear 'fruit'. As long as you bear any at all. They do not need to be great or many. It's the kind of situation where.. if you truly loved God, you'd be doing what he fucking tells you to do. And that is NOT an act exclusive to Christianity. Christ established no entity called Christianity while he was on earth. He established methods and said to follow them and how to know you are doing well on it. It's also true, if I am to be honest, that all can feel the call of the holy spirit regardless.

His life also directly mentions names of those who God kept alive by His side before Christ got there. Those confirmed saved. Somehow not knowing Christ at all and still saved cause they could walk with God.

Strictly speaking.. you need Jesus. Yet strictly speaking you don't. As you said, some have blossomed. They bore fruit living a righteous godly life. The rituals don't fucking matter. Jesus himself said it. You live a righteous life and bear many fruit to show for it, and this who God keeps as his own. That said, I don't plan to gamble with the proposition. Jesus works when gone to the man himself rather than secondary sources. Red Letter. Even Paul is suspect in this, honestly, but that's another topic.

I don't doubt one could see many Buddhists and those of Islam in heaven all the same.

But I also know that it would be prideful of me not to simply accept Jesus's help and ease my climb upward as much as possible. I am not so proud I won't take as much help as God will give me.

>>18799161
>The universe seems to have no great goal.
The will to power.

>>18799180
>so they can survive
Not quite.
>Surviving
*creating

>>18799213
>but does that mean that their are no other gods
Any plurality of gods would be not only redundant but irrational. The one God who created the universe can manage it by His sole authority. Having competing sovreigns is a recipe for disaster

>>18799235
One day, you'll die. Another day, you'll have no descendants left. Another day, there will be no humans left. Another day, there will be no life left on earth. Another day, there will be no life in the universe.
You can't stop it. Trying to stop it is trying to hold wind. If survival is the purpose of life, then life is a cruel and bitter joke.

>>18799253
The idea that gods would compete jealously with each other as if they were humans is not obvious. I see no reason why a group of multiple gods could not work together harmoniously. Personally I do not think that there are multiple gods, but there is no rational reason why this cannot be the case.

>>18799263
Says who? Your pop science youtube videos? Nostradamus? Your high school text books? You're prideful, arrogant, soulless, and quite repulsive. You're hardly human.

>>18795416
Isn't El the ultimate god in canaanite religions?

>>18799263
>One day, you'll die. Another day, you'll have no descendants left. Another day, there will be no humans left. Another day, there will be no life left on earth.
It's possible these all happen on the same day.

>>18799252
Is that the goal of the universe, or the goal of Nietzsche? Besides, given that supposedly we are supposed to be working together towards some 'great goal', wouldn't pursuing the will to power be antithetical to this? Where one person gains power, someone else loses it.

>>18799279
Why is it more arrogant for him to believe that than to believe in any religious dogma (especially ones that promise the believer infinite delights and satisfaction).

>>18799292
One accepts the unknown and faith one thinks humans know how everything will end

>>18799287
>Where one person gains power, someone else loses it.
Not strictly necessarily but an order of rank is certainly compatible with the will to power.

>>18799154
>>18799240
Gotta do a second post to get some extra points.

> Seventh Day Adventists
Jesus directly gives his own prophecy of the end, and this retards contradict him. Jesus' own words remain consistent and true. Those ignoring him and inventing His words for him end up eating shit. A consistent pattern.

>Hasidic Jews who still believe Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson
I had no idea this was a thing. Tell me more. I'm intriquged.

>Mormons
Also contradict His own telling of how things would go after his death.

Once again, it remains consistent. It works, and no one can pull a 'no true scottsman' cause my standard is very clear and set in stone. Red Letter Christ. I'm not even sure that fucker Paul is on the up and up, but I'm still working through that. Granted, I realize I've set myself against the whole world here with such a strict standard, but I'm not the only one who feels this way. Though there aren't many of us. Still, Jesus also said there would be few of true faith.

It's not as if the prospect that things in 2000 years have been.. manipulated doesn't make me uneasy. It very much does. I admit it. Yet the path goes on and my mind and memory improve and my emotions clearer and brighter. Many things too personal to drop here that even our much vaunted and trusted modern psychology literally nearly poisoned me to death to fix to no avail. Yet are gone within two years of work. The path is obscured by time and human malice, but I don't find that a reason to give up. It seems enough of the path exists to lead me down it. I bear fruit, or I hope I do. What more is there to say? I didn't get in to this for an infinite number of mechanical answers on the workings of reality. I got in to this for real human results.

Every other human system has abandoned me. Yet this one slowly pulls me upward out of a situation others simply deemed impossible and not worth helping me with. I'll at least trust God to do right by me. It's the least I can do after so much.

>>18799294
One is a guess based on empirical observation the other is a belief that asserts it literally comes from God even though it provides no means of verifying this.

>>18799240
>admittance
..ommitance. I should sleep.

But really I'm going to go die trying to mow the lawn with a reel mower. Then I'll sleep.

>>18799294
It does accept the unknown. Current projections of the end of the universe are based on information currently understood, but new information could come to light that changes the consensus. Is there the possibility that new information could come to light that allows Christianity to accept that Christ is not God, for example?

>>18795531
This.
Return to platonism.

>>18799273
They would not gods if they were willing to "work together" and share their sovreignty. God dosen't just means just a powerful being. Authority is integral to "godship"

>>18799307
No Christian thinks they know everything and how it will all end. Learn to argue with honesty or don't waste my time

>>18799286
That's true. I made some assumptions to make a point.
>>18799279
If our model of entropy is wrong, then our model of physics is wrong. This could be the case, but our continued success suggests that physics is a good description of the workings of our universe. Thus, we have good reason to trust in that entropy is always increasing. If entropy is always increasing, then eventually the free energy needed for chemical systems to reproduce themselves will no longer be available i.e. life will cease to exist in this universe. Now, it is possible that there is a 'multiverse' with universes coming into existence continuously, but even in this model any work done by humans will have no import towards the future persistence of life.
But even if we say that we're wrong about physics, and that the conditions necessary for life will exist indefinitely, the picture is still bleak. Let us imagine an event where every living organism in the universe dies before managing to reproduce. This event seems incredibly , astronomically, unlikely, but it is hard to deny that it is possible. With infinite time to occur, eventually this event will happen and life will cease.
>Prideful
I am not so proud as to think that I can direct the path of fate, unlike you.
>Arrogant
Unlike you, I don't claim to have knowledge about the purpose of the universe.
>Soulless
lmao
>Quite repulsive.
Thanks.

>>18799313
So then why do you insist that the universe will end and life is futile and all your other teenager crap if you don't know it?

>>18799240
Are you not associated with any particular church then anon? If you have doubts about the church which established the Biblical canon, how can you trust the Gospels which said Church said were worthy of belief? There are other gospels from the time period. Do you trust the Church's authority when it comes to the Biblical canon, or not? How else do you verify which texts are authentic revelation? Sorry to press you on these questions anon, but, as a lapsed Catholic, these are the sort of questions that come up at the forefront of my mind.
>>18799303
Well I'm not sure the Seventh Day Adventists are so loony. You put a lot of stock in Christ's actual words, right? And you criticise those who preach things Christ didn't say. But doesn't he say that "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." (Matthew 24:34) to his followers after describing the apocalypse?

>I had no idea this was a thing. Tell me more. I'm intriquged.
Yes it's quite interesting. Here's an article on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism

Anyway I don't want to convince you out of your belief. I just think that it's reasonable, at least from certain vantage points, not to believe.

>>18799333
I've heard a lot of Christians who sounded quite convinced that they knew how it would all play out, something about the Book of Revelations.

>>18799336
See
>>18799340

>>18799340
Life isn't futile, indefinite survive is a futile goal. Now if one says 'Damn the odds, we must try!' then perhaps it is noble in a Camus-like way, but as a divine-given goal it's rather poor.

>>18799342
There are many interpretations of it not one

>>18799356
You don't know the odds. You keep repeating this crap like a toddler.

>>18799333
I used to be a convert to Christianity. This seems like special pleading. Anon simply makes the rather reasonable conjecture, given what we know about the universe, that humanity will one day go extinct, and so will life on earth. He doesn't say anything specific about how this will happen. I don't see how this is more arrogant than the specific apocalyptic claims made by Christianity, which are derived from revelation. It's reasonable enough if you think they are God-inspired. The problem is verifying that they are in fact God-inspired. I'd wager that the vast majority of scientists, including many devoted Christians, agree with the notion that in 5 billion years the sun will probably engulf the Earth, and that the Earth will have been rendered uninhabitable long before that. They may personally think that won't transpire due to some divine event occurring in the meantime (the creation of the New Jerusalem, or whatever), but that is probably the way things would turn out naturalistically if said event did not happen.

>>18799361
And yet they were quite convinced they had the right interpretation. You said;
>No Christian thinks they know everything and how it will all end
That's blatantly false, unless you say something like 'they're not really Christians then', in which case you're committing a certain famous fallacy.

>>18799366
I think we have good reason to accept that the odds are zero, over the very long run. I submitted an argument and you rejected it without arguing against it. I would be interested in seeing your reasoning.

>>18799371
Ok some Christians believe that well done you found a semantic point to cling to. Now pick on the fact that semantics means something else than what is used to

>>18799377
There's no need for an argument. Any reasonable person knows these kinds of predictions are just hubris. I don't consider Scientism reasonable and I don't argue with unreasonable people. I just answered your questions take my answers or leave them I'm not trying to convince you of anything

>>18799386
You said something, and it was blatantly wrong.

>>18799369
>5 billion years
Shit that's like tomorrow. How are we gonna survive this pressing matter

>>18799415
Cool too bad you don't understand the actual points that are being argued

>>18799405
How is religious prediction less hubristic? Scientific speculations about the future at least acknowledge that they are man-made and tentative. They are probabilistic. Whereas religious revelation is, as a rule, dogmatic. Its adherents do not think of it as speculation, as estimation based on available but incomplete evidence, but as undeniable absolute truth. Where exactly is the justification for such certainty?

>>18799405
I would like to see you apply the same skepticism you have towards naturalistic predictions to your faith.

>>18799430
>>18799449
To understand the apodictic nature of Christianity you would have to first understand the metaphysics for religion. But given that you're arguing from a Scientism perspective that topic of discussion completely filters you so for your cognitive abilities it's enough to understand that your scientific predictions are not definitive and thus the original point of contention that perpetual survival is a futile endeavour is not demonstrated

>>18799341
>Are you not associated with any particular church then anon?
No, and the ones here split long ago in to even smaller churches over petty personal matters. They don't offer togetherness nor education on the bible. Just the same thing every other church does to groups of 10 people at most. All omitting the things that would condemn organized religion or the very idea of priests at all. Cause of course they have to.

Again, the Gospels can be traced and resources referenced. Evidence of Jesus' life can be found and new evidence of the people mentioned in it being real come up. He existed. His words existed. His teachings existed. I use a site that compiles a bunch of other sources relevant line by line all with their own takes on passages. Some more spiritual. Some going over the stock details of the culture and laws being references. Sometimes going over the consistency of the translation of parts and where they are from. It makes reading take a long time, but it's worth it. Some more helpful ones quote the original text and what ways a word can be translated. Which helps understand the actual idea christ was trying to get across.

I will admit it takes a lot of effort to reach Truth now, but it's possible.

>But doesn't he say that "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." (Matthew 24:34) to his followers after describing the apocalypse?
The part he said that about did come to pass, and there's military records for it.

He said the city and it's temple would be overrun, destroyed, and it's people forced to flee so fast they could not even stop to get their own loved ones. The temple would be torn to the ground and not a single stone left. There are military records of this event. Rome got tired of the Jews and ran them out. Ran them so fast everything they were doing was left in place. The temple in question.. we cannot prove physically existed.. but the military records insist it did. So much of it was torn down and taken away there's not even physical evidence left. Just the military record reported their soldiers taking pieces of the temple despite being specifically ordered not to (so rome could repurpose it and take all it's gold for itself, and if you believe the bible the temple was coated top to bottom in the shit everywhere. which matches the records of soldiers taking every single stone cause they were all coated in gold). That happened within that same generation of people. Absolutely.

This part of the prophecy he left and said would be fulfilled IMMEDIATELY, and we can only trust the roman records that it did.

The rest is a bit different, but also cryptic. He really only dropped the knowledge that
>many wars and natural disasters will happen. ignore them.
>many will come in my name. here's how to tell they are full of shit
>not even christ knows the specific end cause the father kept it from him

On that note, Revelations is likely pure dogshit.

>>18799340
I wasn't that guy.
>Verification not required.
You'll just have to trust me I guess.

>>18799484
As a former Catholic, my attitude then and now is that religion makes empirical claims, which are subject to being tested by reason and inquiry. Have you even read the Scholastics, or do you just make appeals to a grand tradition of religious metaphysics (as if there were one, single Christian metaphysics) to give authoritativeness to your exclamations? Why Christianity should be apodictic, and not Islam, you have not said. You simply say, "It is so, and if you don't understand it, you are deficient." How, exactly, is such sophistry meant to win people's confidence and bring people to Christ? St. Paul says to give an account for the faith that is in you.

>>18799484
I'm not a scientist. Notice how I said 'descriptive' instead of 'normative' or 'causative' in my argument you didn't read. I am also not an atheist. My point, which you seem to have expertly dodged, is that Christianity is in no way apodictic. In fact, it is based almost entirely on eyewitness accounts recorded decades after the alleged events occurred. The recorders were also clearly ideologically biased, being a believer themselves. If you doubt the validity of our science, which could very well be wrong, your own standard of proof should also lead to skepticism towards Christianity.

>>18799147
>Has been the European identity for 1500+ years
>Cannot be reconciled
Based retard.

>>18798799
have you read the bible? The jews were reportedly (by the bible) worshipping only YHWH for all their history even prior to the exodus and even prior to the great flood. Noah and his family (although at the time not anyone on earth besides Noah and his family) were worshipping only YHWH and acting according to YHWH's will and Noah's ancestors only worshipped YHWH.
what these other anons are claiming is that they began as polytheistic (antogonistic to the biblical report) and later became monotheistic. It is true however that after the jews entry into canaan they were reportedly very unloyal to YHWH and worshipped many gods so artifacts of other gods in their territory from the time they had settled in that territory would match biblical record.

>>18799703
Is there anyone that genuinely think Noah happened?

Even the structure of those parts reads like an archetypal narrative. Noah has literally no individual traits. Nor does anyone else in that story. It's a psychological story. Same with the Tower of Babel. They don't even have the marks of stories being about real people. Likely included for their psychological/spiritual lessons. Which are still pretty vital as foundational things to watch for. Noah warns of not letting your situation get so out of control that you can only wait it out for the troubles to end. Tower of Babel that no human built structure or system is going to make the people inside that structure good just by the structure existing. It is the people who embrace goodness. Not the structure. They come first after man's origin for a reason. Eden serving a similar purpose. It's sending a message about your nature and your relation to your flaws and your relation to God. Then it goes from there.

It's only once we get past these that the people in the stories take on individual qualities as if they are real people.

>>18799799
>Is there anyone that genuinely think Noah happened?
Yes? It was reported in Gilgamesh too. The 3500 BCE flood in Mesopotamia happened.

>>18798321
>I don't have an argument, but ur a stoopid head
Typical
https://drmsh.com/ancient-origins-writer-inserts-asherah-biblical-text/

>>18799507
>former
Did you forget to have proper prayer life.

>>18795629
Abraham was from Ur of the chaldees,
then he traveled to Haran.
Nanna / Sin (Moon God) was the patron god of those cities.

Shamash /Utu (Sun God) is the son of Nanna, Nanna is the son of Enlil (Storm God) Enlil is son of Anu (King of Gods).
Jews worship a dynasty of sumerian gods, and due to their migration to Canaan they mixed with the local pantheon.

>>18796858
JIDF

>>18799007
Simple. Because they're demonic.

>>18795880
They don't think it be like it is, but it do

>>18795416

The only part of Christianity that matters at all under any circumstances is the resurrection. All the philosophy, morals, ethics, history, blah blah blah is hacked together to be convenient to whatever context apologists are stuck in. The only thing that matters is believing in the literal, material, historical truth of the resurrection. If you don't believe that Jesus was nailed to a cross, was slain, had his body thrown into a cave, and then materially disappeared as he went to heaven (not like, his soul went to heaven or whatever, but as every part of Jesus, material or otherwise went to heaven) and came back to life, the entirety of Christianity is just a personal preference. The resurrection can't be a metaphor, or a symbol, or a myth, or anything other than a wholly material and historical event. Going to mass, reading the Bible, going to church, eating bread and wine, all of that is just fancy play pretend dressing to pass the time with people around you while you wait to die and go to heaven. After you accept the resurrection there is no real reason to do anything other than twiddle your thumbs until you die, because nothing else could possibly have any significance. Be a good person? Doesn't matter, just earnestly repent 1 day before you die and you are saved. Study apologetics and defend Christianity from dorks in shitty hats? Why bother? They'll just die eventually, so will you, and you'll go to heaven, right? Create an elaborate defense of the Bible's historical narrative? Who care? Illiterate 70 IQ peasants in Russia who drank themselves blind every night and died from being kicked in the temple by a cow are right now enjoying god's glory despite being an ignorant troglodyte.

I don't even understand why people argue so much about all the frivolous nonsense about this pantheon or that historical record, who ripped off who, the philosophical roots of some nerd monk with indigestion or whatever. Just to pass the time I guess? Many people are always looking for a reason to think they are smarter or more knowledgeable than someone else? Looking for a chance to tell someone what to do?

>>18795880
The mirrored statue looks nothing like Baphomet. You are a retard.

>>18802946
Based

>>18795620
Good goy.