/lit/ - Literature

>>18781166
How many people do you know IRL that read, for pleasure or purpose, outside assigned classwork or forum-use?

>>18781166
Asking this on /lit/ is stupid, but I think the snobbery is justified.

Out of all artistic endeavors, books require the most developed interior life. There's a reason reading novels is linked to higher empathy and imaginative abilities, it's literally rewiring your brain to construct others and understand how they think, feel, and interact according to the logic of the text.

All art does this to some extent, but I'd argue books demand more of these interior skills.

>>18781173
actually a lot, unless you're like
>noo x books don't count

>>18781189
>Out of all artistic endeavors, books require the most developed interior life. There's a reason reading novels is linked to higher empathy and imaginative abilities, it's literally rewiring your brain to construct others and understand how they think, feel, and interact according to the logic of the text.
Is there any validity to the idea that empathetic people read more books rather than books make you empathetic? Also I am a /lit/izen and really am averse to this kind of smarmy snobbery.

>>18781173
>>18781195
Yeah I know a fair chunk. In fact maybe half the people I know do some form of reading for pleasure. A smaller chunk of maybe 1 in 10 of those are hardcore readers that have never got their nose out of a book. What is your point though? Does the number of those people really make much of a difference to the validity of snobbery?

>>18781166
Not at all, if by books you mean fiction, then it's another form of entertainment. Of course people who would waste time reading classic literature rather than scrolling social media tend to have higher IQs, but it's still a waste of time.

Video games are traps for high IQ people while watching sports is a trap for lower IQ people, this doesn't mean gaming is more highbrow, because the end result is similar to that of watching a football match.

>>18781244
Playing a video game is more akin to playing a sport. It's not comparable to watching football. Watching streamers is comparable to watching football.

>>18781166
I'm not a snob, but I'm the only one I know, besides one girl on my FB, that reads. She is a doctor. I am a NEET. We are both interested in fitness. I think it's just a /bloomer/ thing to do, for some.
>>18781173

>>18781242
I don't think you'll ever quite work out the causality whether books make people empathetic or empathetic people read. Whether you believe one or the other depends on how much you think media changes people. I think it probably does quite a lot, so I lean towards saying it is more literature changing minds.

But, yeah, I don't have academic research to back any of this up. More going off of random articles that come across my feed that link novel reading with increased empathy, imaginative ability. Feel free to dismiss that, it's probably bullshit.

>>18781254
No, it's much more idle than playing a sport. Sure it requires more focus, but only mentally.

Video games don't even require intelligence, they are accessible to everyone, the same for most books, but they both attract more intelligent people. Hence the elitism is partly justified. I could say the same about music (e.g. black metal).

>>18781276
>link novel reading with increased empathy, imaginative ability
Goebbels had a PhD in Romantic literature, and he was a bit of a cunt.
Suspect the reading=empathy thing is just a way for freelance journalists to dunk on people they hold to be their inferiors, without the whole infra dig 'openly sneering at the plebs' thing.

>>18781291
>Goebbels had a PhD in Romantic literature, and he was a bit of a cunt.
He had high in-group empathy. And was emotive and brooding.

>>18781279
>I could say the same about music (e.g. black metal).
I am the OP and love BM. Listening to NONE right now actually. What is the BM red pill here anon? Is it metal heads are elitist for no reason?

>>18781291
>just a way for freelance journalists to dunk on people they hold to be their inferiors
I get this from the images, I get irrationally angry at the cartoon in my OP and I think that is why.

>>18781291
>Goebbels had a PhD in Romantic literature, and he was a bit of a cunt.
No, he wasn't, but congrats for falling for the trap of vilifying all Nazi leaders. They had pure souls, were mellow, empathetic and prone to melancholy. Of course, with some exceptions such as Dirlewanger. But I'm talking about Hitler, Himmler or Goebbels here.

>>18781305
Only a third of modern black metal is elitist, the other two thirds blend in with the metalhead subculture which original black metal disavowed. Most of depressive black metal is trite and imitative, atmospheric black metal is as threadbare and "trve" black metal which comes out is almost phony because it is essentially LARPing and, again, imitating. Trends within the scene are soulless, take the "space" black metal triggered by Deathspell Omega and all its clones. What retains some originality for me is the Ukrainian scene, Finnish scene and a few bands here and there, Sweden or the US. Of course, I love the 1990s Norwegian, Polish bands. But I'm talking about how the scene fares currently.

You wouldn't expect a genre to be elitist when it's associated to lean muscular pretty bois such as Watain or Kampfar, or mall goths such as Cradle of Filth, do you?

>>18781361
>Ukrainian scene
Very based.

I like depressive and ambient, but that's more what I can work to without getting distracted by the music.

>You wouldn't expect a genre to be elitist when it's associated to lean muscular pretty bois such as Watain or Kampfar, or mall goths such as Cradle of Filth, do you?
I dunno, I think there is a lot of ways any group that make a little walled garden of snobbery. You think the genre is generally low IQ/poses as high IQ when they are actually midwits?

>>18781166
Yes

>>18781173
my wife and her friends but they just consoom YA and chick lit lol

I can BTFO both by virtue of the same principal
>fitfag
If applicable: Simulates actually being a man and boasts of a superficial appearance of manhood via "training" in a man literally lifting heavy things and exerting his body solely to gain muscle vaingloriously. Compare this to the man who becomes strong by doing activities which lend themselves to adorning him with an image of vitality that lacks the substance of life.

>litfags
you know the type if applicable: They are pathetic for consuming the thoughts of others and thinking that alone is a virtue. When they have some idea they want an answer to they will consult others to look for a book and you can only imagine the atrophy from never thinking.
You notice when talking to them how they actually don't think at all and can only ever regurgitate the opinions they read or quote an author even if paraphrasing.
They can even be so fucking stupid they do not realize that they need experience to truly learn in the most fundamental ways and substitute experiencing anything including their own thoughts (which may give the air of sophistication based on subject matter but you can be sure goes no deeper than what they have already been exposed to).

Congratulations for teaching yourself to be so fucking stupid.

>>18781166
Snobbery is never warranted, it’s literally just being an ass about the things you like. You should just be nice about the things you like.

>>18781166
For the most part no. The ones that are the snobbiest book people read crap and brag about it constantly

>>18781489
people are people so why do you think they are BTFO? most people don't change and re-evaluate their lives because someone on Moroccan Cymbals Tibetan Origami website told them they only care about aesthetics.

>>18781166
No.
>>18781189
If any study found reading novels is linked to higher empathy, it's because women are the primary novel readers today. Of course it's linked to "imaginative abilities" because people who read are more likely to be intelligent, not really because reading makes you intelligent. "Interior life" is a meme, if you need to read books to become more empathetic and to teach you how to think, feel and interact it's because you aren't fucking normal, normal people already have these "skills."

>>18781312
Goering is the only one with a pure soul. The rest had to cloak their petty jealousies in concern and pity.

>>18781166
No. It detracts from the act of learning and developing through literature. Anyone who has a snobby attitude is most likely involved in the hobby as a means of projecting their intelligence to those around them, it’s vanity.
Find people who read and want to have genuine conversations about what they read, sincerity is what you should be looking for.

>>18781489
>When they have some idea they want an answer to they will consult others to look for a book and you can only imagine the atrophy from never thinking
Holy shit this. I got told by a friend they were the most open minded person they knew thanks to attending a good university. I told them I did not support BLM the day before and they stormed out of the room. I couldn't believe that this person could be so unaware that they did not realise they were the most close minded person ever. I cannot think of one time I asked them to justify something and they gave me an original response. Everything they said was so potted and pre-formed I knew it was a tweet or a quote. They were unable to handle the tiniest piece of new information.

What if I'm reading AND getting fit?

>>18781795
have you discussed this with them? People who have been "educated" as it primarily means now have just been taught what to think and never how to think and even if they are taught "how" to think it is purely from them being taught what to think about how to think.

> I told them I did not support BLM the day before and they stormed out of the room.
Does he ever challenge himself or discuss these things with you?
It really is sad that people see their opinions as an extension of themselves and I think that is why they behave so. You are attacking them in their mind so they attack your character as you would if personally insulted. You are threatening them in their mind so they flee.

Open minded as I see it means being as impartial as you can and stepping back from your own ideas to look at them in different ways or examine others in a similar fashion. Best thing that could happen to you in an argument is that you "lose" and learn something and even just talking to people you disagree with can provide you with some new perspective.

John Gatto has a book called weapons of mass instruction and it touches on this topic and while as a whole it has its flaws I think it is well worth checking out anon.

>>18781868
Yeah I talked to them and they just smirked and claimed they KNEW that they were a freethinker now that their opportunities have opened their mind wider than a fucking Hummer.

>challeege
try as I might we stayed together for a year in lockdown and had one long meaningful conversation, every other one was met with a walk out or a demand to change the subject.

>Gatto
Cheers mate.

>>18781526
How is 'interior life' a meme? Interiority is a grounding concept in most spiritual practices. I'm not saying people need to read to feel empathy, but that the skills associated with reading, particularly fiction are connected to one's ability to construct and maintain inner world. Obviously non-readers can do that sort of thing, but I think the technology of the book strengthens or heightens those abilities.

>>18781526
>if you need to read books to become more empathetic and to teach you how to think, feel and interact it's because you aren't fucking normal, normal people already have these "skills."
no they don't. The average normie is a sociopath. That's why autist how difficulty in society. We can't function amongst the dishonesty and general sinfulness.

>>18781795
This reads like the Marine Todd copypasta. Seems you're also having a bit of an emotional reaction to your friend's response, no?

>>18781901
if you enjoy them as a person and they do not make their woke shit a wedge in the relationship then you could still be friends. If you cannot handle walking on egg shells and curating your words and thoughts it may be hard if you are anything like me.
>>18781942
seems like maybe it was just an observation he made. You don;t have to have hivemind friends but it can be hard to talk with people who are woke types for various reasons sadly.
politics does not need to get in the way of a friendship bu it goes beyond that with these people and it is a shame as they may be really cool people but react emotionally like a toddler.

>>18781942
I didn't know what a Marine Todd was until you just posted that but I can hardly see the similarities here. Yes, I was disappointed and baffled he could be so blind, so what? Any person who saw a close minded person claim to be a free thinker like that would slap their head. I never claimed to be the gold standard of Stoicism, anon.

>>18781959
>if you enjoy them as a person and they do not make their woke shit a wedge in the relationship then you could still be friends. If you cannot handle walking on egg shells and curating your words and thoughts it may be hard if you are anything like me.
Blood is thicker than water. The wedge is real but I try and look past it. I hardly mind he is a progressive it is more that total lack of self awareness and lack of openness that gets me. I have equally leftie mates that don't drive me nuts.

>>18781959
>these people
honestly don't know what you're on about. I went to a fairly 'woke' university and had no problem with this. You steer away from the types who have no ideological flexibility, but there are genuinely few people like that I've encountered. The least open minded are usually the most visbily damaged, so I find it easy to have some sympathy for them. For me, it's focusing on being less reactive and more curious about why people think the things they do. You start to realize how much of one's viewpoint is constructed and linked to key events in one's past.

>>18781981
Maybe you need to tell him tactfully how you feel and that you really do enjoy his company and about how to best keep fruitful relations by not speaking about certain topics if the case calls for it. You do what is best for you and sometimes that can mean parting ways god forbid.
>>18782003
>The least open minded are usually the most visbily damaged
Really? the most damaged can also be the most open minded as well.

>>18782076
>most damaged can also be the most open minded as well
in some cases, I suppose so, but I think the most common symptoms of trauma close people off rather than open them up. Damaged people who have done an incredible amount of self-work and reflection definitely have a uniquely textured and openminded perspective. But, your average person who has lived through some shit develops coping mechanisms for themselves that often are self-destructive and isolating. It's why the traumatized are at higher risk for BPD and DID.

No/maybe/yes. Define justified and give us an example of a feel that is.

>>18782128
I have to admit I have only actually talked to damaged people online aside from psychwards and damaged people offline do tend to be overly sensitive faggots mostly.
I think that it is the self reflection that can help and the inability of being able to belong or even the desire to belong to the social norm.

Fucked up people who are isolated in some form usually become either arrogant and prop themselves up with their ego or they just tear everything down and have to evaluate everything from the ground up.

It's like most people are just trains running along a tracks that hardly differ from each other due to same experiences generally and being extremely socialized but others have to try find their own path I guess. BPD is no excuse but a hurdle that can make you even more cynical and force you to test everything as you can be even less sure of yourself than the average person.

>>18781808

>>18781361
Metal is angry "music" for spoiled children. Grow up.

>>18781808
Then you're extra gay

>>18781361
>>18781305
Used to love black metal because of the grim and bleak atmosphere but aside from that most of them kinda suck ie 0 virtuosity and no 230bpm of blastbeats and tremolo picked riffs in 4/4 is not virtuosity.
I don't understand BM elitism aside from if you haven't killed someone you're not real BM: faust,varg and the dude from absurd. If there's elitism in metal it should come from people who can perform tech death stuff and the newer breed of prog "fake" metal just because technical proficiency > all
While newer prog metal is borderline ass most performers are very competitive and it's not rare to see shawn lane or Holdsworth lines get played.

>>18781489
Brains vs. brawn is a false (and unironically Jewish/rabbinical) dichotomy. Plato was a champion wrestler, that tells you all.

>>18781868
Back when my best friend was a freshman she would spew an ungodly amount of canned bullshit as mantra and her brain simply shut down if I tried to explain my take on things. Our healthy friendship devolved into just getting together to take drugs and eat pizza. Really fucking sad since she used to be pretty open to trying out new things, learn about cool shit, etc.

>>18781166
no
'non-pleasure' books are just history books that indirectly apply to pleasure.
the only snobbery justified is about peoples shit prose.

>>18782200
>spoiled
Poptimist tranny hands wrote this.

>>18782200
Metal isn't angry at all. It's just a bunch of guys trying to have a good time

>>18781416
Already, they read more then /lit/.

>>18782275
BM is all about kvlt. Kvlt is an intangible concept. You either 'get it' or you don't.
Technical proficiency means fuck all. You could drill any soulless bugman to play the craziest technical shit, and so what? As a listener you're a passive consoomer so how hard a piece is to play has no bearing on your experience. Pitting your favorite wankfest vs. mine is literally "my dad could beat your dad in a fight"-tier.

>>18782318
cope

>>18781166
Depends. Intelligence comes in different forms, even if it isn't the whole modern "emotional intelligence" bullshit.
I have two friends who I both consider more intelligent than me, when on paper, as per IQ tests, I'm supposed to be a fair step above. One has the best memory I've ever seen , he's done national television contests in some of the most complex spelling competitions around, he is fairly intelligent when in comes to common sense issue, but he tends to accept the ambient liberal mindset without too much questions.
The other is a Cote d'Ivoire-born black man whose family immigrated when he was 3. He is now an oncologist surgeon, and has probably the best political mind/knowledge I know. He is obsessed with Cold War politics, insanely redpilled, and sadly I haven't seen him in a year because he was hired by the Saudi royal family as a private on-call surgeon for a two year contract.
The first one doesn't read at all, the second only reads stuff related to Cold War politics. I've majored in philosophy, and despite having been friends with them for over 5 years, I have never been able to discuss what I study with them. The second one forget himself, and start asking, "so, what do you work on right now?" and I try to explain to them I writing a paper on Husserl's intentionality, their eyes goes blank. The surgeon at least could relate some things, if I spoke to him of concepts he knew off through biology or cognitive sciences, I could hold his attention for 2~3 minutes, but any longer than that was seemingly something that wasn't fun at all for them.
When I started philosophy and lived in another city, my two roomates were also in philosophy, and were clearly a lot dumber than my friends, but at least we could have super autistic conversations on the possibility of a concept of nobility of animals in the Catholic doctrine, or the duty of a man to defend his culture and to what length he should go, be shouting at each other the whole time, and yet consider that this was a fruitful and enjoyable evening.

>>18782364
It's why BM is music for non musicians. Most if not all of its listeners don't even know there was a Chopin competition a few weeks ago. BM is cool but transcribing it or performing songs by a BM band isn't really an accomplishment compared to maybe transcribing a solo and performing a solo by holdsworth or Coltrane (panzerballett). BM is stunted if kvlt is what it offers and most "kvlt" bmers today don't even stand behind racial supremacy (shitalian guy from watain's roman salute was funny though). Go to metallum's subforum for general chat and see most of the idiots there just complain how X is racist, etc.

>>18782438
Not that anon you replied to but just wondering your thoughts on harsh noise and drone?
I listen to both and a wide range of music and really appreciate it but what do you think of it?

>>18782370
Memorization does not correlate with IQ at all. You could be both a living encyclopedia and the dumbest motherfucker alive. And if you're a smartypants but your memorization is shit then mnemonics can carry you a long long way.
That's extremely common and the reason most people have several social circles, cliques, etc.

>>18782456
I don't have much experience about aside from the obvious groups/artists like merzbow, sun (((vote hillary))) and the like.

Would you consider that om as drone? I really enjoyed most of their stuff up to advaitic songs. Their drummer has exquisite taste in music ranging from egyptian psych rock to turkish stuff (which is more prevalent in grails than om)
It's pretty much going from rembrandt to paul klee if I can compare it to paintings, the former being the equivalent of at least early romantic music.

I don't hate it just like I don't hate black metal it's just not something i find substantial or for growth when it comes to music in general.

It's honestly something that stupid people either can't do, or don't want to do, and those people hold us back often :3

Somewhat

>>18782506
https://youtu.be/lHgiRWZpC48
This is the BM I like I find a lot not to my liking sadly. Based on your previous comments I assume you would shit on this because it is lacking in areas you see as important?

Merzbow is meme harsh noise actually and only does anything good when collabing. Harsh noise still needs to follow aesthetics even if it is extremely subtle.

>>18782549
This is quite similar to wolves in the throne room and early alcest though a bit more raw like temnozor (nsbm) from russia. You don't like those stuff? What about cult of fire's meditation of death album for a somewhat more refined sound but probably less kvlt.

I don't think proficiency is that important for most listeners but as to someone who appreciates performance and is a performer it is important. Kinda like how people love jacob collier regardless of being just a listener or someone who performs.

Sorry my.punctations are all over the place i am phoneposting. **>>18782617

>>18781279
Jesus Christ if I could select one genre to exemplify midwittery it would be BM

>>18782287
>Plato was a champion wrestler, that tells you all.
That's just one anecdote, and Aristophanes also presented an early look at brains vs brawns dichotomy with "The Clouds" when he made philosopher students appear gaunt. Showing that it's more than a "jewish" thing but something cross-cultural and very old.

>>18782663
My point is that you don't have to choose one or the other. They're as mutually exclusive as liking apple pie and enjoying air hockey.
If anything ill bodies foster sclerotic minds.

>Showing that it's more than a "jewish" thing but something cross-cultural and very old.
Obviosuly it's not solely rabbinical but that's where it comes from in Western culture, and it's further perpetuated by 'media' since the types who produce it tend to eschew physical prowess (you could say Ashkenazim frailty plays a role in this too). You will find the dicothomy whenever you have a priestly caste that sets itself apart from the rabble through intellectual and/or ascetic practices but it's not really there in non-agrarian/pastorial/nomad societies.

>>18782783
>If anything ill bodies foster sclerotic minds.
Not having muscles /=/ ill-bodied.

>>18782438
Most musicians have the ability to enjoy primitive music, whether it's delta blues, African war chants or ambient.
I will grant you that if you're clasically trained (I'm not but my parents are) you will most likely find 95% of rock/guitar music so repetitive as to be tantamount to Chinese water torture.

>>18782855
>Not having muscles /=/ ill-bodied.
I agree.

>>18782880
if by "not having muscles" you meant "not being swole"*, that is

sagxru 'cos doublepost

>>18781166
no people just project snobbery on people who read because their their ego feels threatened

>>18781189
>There's a reason reading novels is linked to higher empathy and imaginative abilities,

I observe that people on lit have no strong empathy and are unimaginative (there are a few exceptions). If what you're saying is true, people on lit don't read novels (with a few exceptions), or what you're saying isn't true.

>>18782870
Repetitive music is bad? Repetitive music is modern? If I come up with a few "primitive" songs that are repetitive, is that contrary to your point? Do your parents listen to "primitive music"?
I don't have a lot of knowledge of "primitive" music besides what I've heard on the voyager golden record -- what characterstics or features differentiate it from the ilk of rock/guitar music?

>>18781166
Snobbery is a natural consequence of value. If a given domain can produce things of varying worth, then it is natural that people will develop a taste for the higher quality labors. Then people who are prone to snobbery (and most everyone is at least somewhat prone to this unless you are extremely amicable) will assert their superior belief and establish a canonical heirarchy. Every board on this website dealing with a creative domain is subject to this type of snobbery. If we can justify valuing some books over others then we will have to put up with snobbery.

>>18782915
>>18782915
By primitive music I meant all non-academic music. Guess I should have said "popular music" instead, but that technically includes offbeat stuff that would at least pique the interest of your average musician.

>Repetitive music is bad?
I didn't say that. Anon posed that BM was for non-musicians because it's crude and I said that musicians can enjoy simple music no problemo.

>>18783098
>>Repetitive music is bad?
>I didn't say that

>you will most likely find 95% of rock/guitar music so repetitive as to be tantamount to Chinese water torture.
i read between the lines, but only a little.

Also, I asked you like 6 questions and you answered 1. Since this reply chain is no longer constructive, I'll give and example of "primitive music" (what's non-academic music?) and demonstrate that it's incredibly repetitive. However, it's a good song -- dear lurkers, listen to it, then read the wiki on it.

https://open.spotify.com/track/5P02GOAJkbbgwOpP07n1Ex?si=2a7eab6de6ea4e02

>>18783205
Okay let me rephrase that:
>Out of the many musicians I know, a few people (just 4, my parents, a good friend and an acquaintance), who are clasically trained, find 4/4 verse-chorus music boring as heck.

>Do your parents listen to "primitive music"?
No, I just said that they find the vast majority of non-classical music plain tortuous. I recall watching the Paranoid Android video in a waiting room with mum a few years ago and she said it was okay, but it could have been the toons that kept her entertained.

>what's non-academic music?
All music that's not Western art/academic music.
I guess you could also include stuff like Chinese opera, gamelan, etc. in traditions/canons of their own and apart from their respective culture's popular music. Again when I said "primitive" I didn't mean "music from 'primitive' cultures" but rather "all music that's simple from an academic/Schenkerian perspective".

>>18783347
Also dad listens to tango sometimes and mom enjoys dixieland/big band jazz. For what's worth, mom was a yuge Beatles fan as a kid but nowadays says they're trash. Dad was into The Doors and God knows what else.

>>18782501
Absolutely this. I'm friends with a guy who goes to quizzes all the time, even appeared on The Chase. When it comes to actual specialised knowledge or to matters of general intuition, he is obviously no more talented than anyone else in the room, he just has a really good memory and wide surface-level knowledge. Respectable, but not to be overrated.

>>18783347
>>18783449
(not that anon)
There's definitely an interesting area in which one's taste seems to drop out of the more banal schemes used by a "commoner", /mu/tant etc. For what it's worth, I only really started enjoying Beatles (who are fairly developed as far as pop music goes) and simpler early jazz (Armstrong, for example), and even more repetitive stuff, such as EDM, modern pop etc. only after I've gotten into classical music. Before that, I was wanking to krautrock, Berlin school ambient, industrial... none of that interests me now.
Folk, as in true traditional stuff, not Bob Dylan pseud crap, is an especially interesting thing. I have come to be fully open to it (even though in my culture it is heavily associated with total cultural and aesthetic backwardness, i.e. you're a peasant if you're into folk), and even though it structurally and harmonically doesn't feel much more complex than a decent pop song (judging by my amateur ears), it is like no other form inviting to the listener, inclusive - it begs you to sing along, to be involved in the collective. The same way you positively react to a good rhythmic song in a club by dancing, but even to a greater degree, by not just dance-commenting the song, but by being synchronised with the collective that creates it. It's something that is impossible to a non-musician at any other sort of concert, especially a classical one (though we do enjoy mimicking the conducting, but that's very very far from true musical creation in this situation).

(apologies, I'm a bit drunk, but felt like throwing these thoughts at the screen)

>>18781166
no, snobbery is a character flaw usually stemming from insecurities.

no.

>>18781299
He looks so much like reviewbrah

>>18781166
No, depends on how one reads.

>>18781166
Funnily enough the biggest book snobs I've encountered in real life are all YA readers.

>>18781166
"Books" is pretty broad, anon. /sci/friends having stacks of math books isn't the same as someone with a lot of fiction books, etc.
I do think there's value in fiction, though, for reasons people will surely articulate better than I could. However I will say this: time you spent reading is time you're not mindlessly spending on social media or culture war shit. That is valuable in and of itself.

>>18781173
Myself and most of my peers
t. Lawyer

>>18781173
Myself and most of my peers
t. drug addict