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/lit/ - Literature


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18739208 No.18739208 [Reply] [Original]

>lives perfectly pious and sinless life
>God allows Devil to single him out to torture him him as a "test"
>loses possessions
>loses health
>loses children
>remains pious and refuses to curse or condemn God
>proves himself to God
>God provides no reason for subjecting him to eternal suffering

I understand the motif that "good thing happen to bad people" but what's the point of this story? Job was singled out by God and he still doesn't get any proper answer.

>> No.18739220

>>18739208
>"good thing happen to bad people"
You have it backwards, the point is that bad things happen to good people and sometimes that's just how it goes. Job's friends insist that his misfortune must be a punishment, but that is not the case.

>> No.18739223

I don't know why Abrahanism isn't fucking condemned. This is the same God Christcucks say "loves" them so much.

>> No.18739252

>>18739208
>God provides no reason for subjecting him to eternal suffering
he wasn't subjected to eternal suffering. he got back everything he lost twofold (except for kids, he just had 10 more since the first set of 10 would be reunited with him in the world to come).
i know secularists think that you're just supposed to ignore the ending of job but it's right there.

>> No.18739263

You must be very dumb to not understand it. The moral is that god never abandon us, so we should never abandon him. Even when job lost everything he still loved god

>> No.18739266

>>18739252

This. Every single secular critique of a biblical accounts always relies on ignoring key parts of the account.

>> No.18739420

>>>>LOL IT'S OKAY GOD KILLED HIS ENTIRE FAMILY FOR SHITS AND GIGGLES CUZZ HE GOT ANOTHER ONE

Seriously, fuck you people. You're psychotic.

>> No.18739476

>>18739208
>>God provides no reason for subjecting him to eternal suffering
as pointed out already itt he wasn't subjected to eternal suffering, but also the point of showing Job the leviathan and the behemoth et al is that a) things that are dangerous to humans are just as much a part of creation as humans themselves and b) the universe is fucking huge and complex and humans can't understand it in its entirety, so an explanation is kinda moot

if you don't want to accept that lesson then that's your prerogative but don't say that the book doesn't cover it. the god described in the hebrew bible is an eternal superbeing, asking for an explanation from such a source would be like you trying to justify your masturbation habits to a beetle

>> No.18739542

>>18739420
Bro do you not see those eagles nesting up on high? Who do you think pays for this shit?

>> No.18739551

>>18739208
Literally only one of two good books in the Bible (the other being Ecclesiastes), and anyone who disagrees is either a militant atheist or a Christcuck.

>> No.18739557

>>18739420
>death holding any meaning to a true believer with an immortal soul
surely you can do better than m-m-muh d-death?

>> No.18739562

>>18739263
Sounds like an abusive relationship desu, I hope Job can get into a battered men's shelter

>> No.18739596

>>18739551
kind of an asinine opinion, both are good but there's plenty of good shit in the bible. exodus is a good story. jonah is a good story. esther is a good story. psalms bangs. lots of other stuff in just in the hebrew bible. I'm not a christian but the epistles slap, especially corinthians.

>> No.18739606

It showed many things:
>He doesn't always intervene even when his most loyal followers are suffering
>He will put his followers through trials
>Nobody knows His motives but Him
>What it means to truly worship God
>God can reward people
>Lucifer has some control over the Earth (Temptation of Christ also shows this)

>> No.18739630

>>18739596
the minor prophets and the undisputed paulines are all fantastic but they get short shrift from modern pseuds because they have too much theological content

>> No.18739820

>>18739208
Job got everything back and then some. And assuming heaven is real, his family is there. You can go get fucked along with the devil.

>> No.18739908

>>18739820
Kikes don't have a heaven though. Just the grave.

>> No.18739950

>>18739208
He does get a proper answer. It's just that you, along with every other normalfaggot, simply don't like the answer you are given. The world under heaven is pure chaos. The nature of the universe is cold and bleak and bloodthirsty. It is warlike. The natural order is cruel and merciless. The escape? God. God is the order amongst disorder.

>> No.18739969

>>18739908
there's no heaven in the OT only if you ignore the places where there clearly is one

Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell.
But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol,
for he will receive me. Selah

>> No.18739974

>>18739208
>implying God needs to justify himself to Job or you

>> No.18739984

>>18739223
Why are both fedoras and fundamentalists unable to read biblical stories as literature?

>> No.18740006

>>18739223
I feel like that's what makes Christianity as a religion so profound. Jesus is the same God who wiped out countless people over the ages in ruthless fashion as the one who loved those he came across when he walked the earth.

>> No.18740028

>>18739950
Closer than some of the other answers, however, I think there is a simpler one. Kikes are from the desert, and there is no natural law in the desert, it must be made and maintained by the social group. The easiest way to do this is through cult practices; the typical initiation rites, us/them mentality, brutal hoarding, ect.
When they left the desert into 'Canaan,' and got ass fucked by the people there, many abandoned the practices and beliefs of their forefathers, seen in Judges and the like. The 'Prophets' pulled them back in saying it wasn't YHWH, it was them for being unbelieving filth. Job is just a simple story of how powerful Kike Zeus is; he cannot be questioned and he cannot be reasoned with, only obeyed. If you're lucky, you'll get rewarded for obedience, but not likely.

>> No.18740038

>>18740006
So God is a hypocrite?

>> No.18740051

>>18740038
Why do you people purposefully misunderstand Job and by extension religion in general? God doesn't answer to you. Imagine trying to call a supreme being who can see and know all time, space, etc, a hypocrite. It's simply retarded.

>> No.18740053

>>18739420
It is suggested that the beginning and ending of the text are newer additions, framing an older story. If this is true the parts about Satan making and deal with the Lord and Job getting rewarded at the end are fanfiction.

>> No.18740129

>>18739969

There is heaven in the OT, but it is not possible for anyone to go to heaven after their death, since Sheol is the lawful place for all of the dead to go.

Christ, in his death and resurrection, opened up heaven to everyone in Sheol, and so now the Bosom of Abraham has moved from Sheol to Heaven.

>> No.18740173

>>18740051
Good and loving doesn't coincide with slaughter and basically torture.

>> No.18740180

>>18739208
He didn't give him eternal suffering. Job is living in eternal life right now

>> No.18740197

>>18740051

What's retarded is refusing to acknowledge the obvious contradictions in the deity described in the two testaments. You don't get to claim Logos and Reason when it's convenient, and then abandon them, throw up your hands and go Muh Mystery, Just Have Faith when it isn't. This is why we don't respect you intellectually.

>> No.18740264
File: 62 KB, 540x960, 57486348_352103825652917_7865571972229365760_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
18740264

>>18740197

Stating that God is a hypocrite is not the same thing as proving that God is a hypocrite, or having any basis to make the judgement call at all.

If you actually read Genesis, God is absurdly patient with Adam, Cain, and the whole world awaiting flooding in Noah's time had over 100 years to repent and turn back. It's hard enough to give someone even one month to change their ways before abandoning them, and God gave the whole world, that was steeped in non-stop degeneracy, over 100 years to stop before it was flooded.

But, because they didn't take the opportunity, they get the consequences of abandoning God and failing to repent. It's more merciful for God to remove the corruption in the world, than to let it continue on for way, way too long, and having it spill over into everyone's lives. It would be horrifying if there were no longer any people on earth except those committed to evil.


We all had the opportunity to listen, and to repent of our evil ways, and we continually, in our pride presume to judge God and refuse to abandon our evil ways. Notice that the sign that God gave to promise he would never flood the world was the rainbow - and now that sign is being twisted to represent pride, mocking God to his face.


This is why the world is going through successive complete disasters right now that will depopulate the world, and why another world war will happen. We brought this on ourselves, and God is letting us reap the rewards of our actions.

>> No.18740303

>>18739542

Well done. One can see you were truly impressed by the beauty of that passage about the eagle and their offspring (which means you have sensibility to poetry), but was also able to make a very funny joke with it (for in the end God is actually saying something quite similar to the content of your joke).

Good post.

>> No.18740328

>>18740303
arigatou

>> No.18740360

>>18740264
The progressivist left will be dealt with concisely and thoroughly this century, no need for any flooding from God.

>> No.18740374

>>18740360

The progressivist left are taking care of themselves by taking the death stabs as ordered.

>> No.18740398

>>18739208
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DbKAsBOiuw

>> No.18740677
File: 6 KB, 250x214, 1595261195333.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
18740677

>>18739220
>sometimes that's just how it goes
is this really all you've got?

>> No.18740860

>>18740677
All you need

>> No.18741222

I've seen some people claim that the accuser in Job is not the satan of the temptation of Christ and all that. Is there any basis to this? Was there discussion about this among Church fathers or anything I can read or is this just a new theory?

>> No.18741284

>>18739208
Even if it's theologically not, it's still one of the greatest works of art ever created.

>> No.18741315

>>18741222
i think that's a rather modern academic theory, that ha satan (the accuser) in the OT was a title for an angel in god's court who was supposed to hold people accountable, almost like a divine prosecutor in court cases where god was the presiding judge. you can see the dynamic in job 1 and also zechariah 3. the theory goes that satan evolved from god's prosecutor to god's enemy after jews got exposed to zoroastrianism and he took on qualities of ahriman, at which point you begin getting references like 1 chronicles 21 where satan was clearly acting against god's will. i'm not aware that any church fathers ever subscribed to this idea or that they were even aware of it.

>> No.18741373

>>18739252
>>18739266
I can't even comprehend the mental gymnastics of this

>> No.18741459

>>18739208
Job is shown to not be a righteous man, maybe a pious man but not righteous. The story is an attack on Job-minded people, this "prosperity gospel" sort of mindset where if you are good and you obey God, nothing bad is going to happen to you. Job is proven to not be completely detached from his "creational" goods, whether his family or his possessions. If he were completely detached, he would not have been harmed, in the sense that even if he suffered from illness or poverty, it would not have affected him. His mind would have been completely immersed in divine immutability, where nothing ever reaches God or can ever affect him for good or bad. Then, he would have loved even his misfortunes, as the will of God they were.

>> No.18741603

>>18740053
>catholics reveal themselves to be the "postmodernists"

Every time.

>> No.18741612

>>18741603

Postmodernism has its direct lineage with Western Scholastic thought. Nominalism is just postmodernism prototype. Aquinas believed death existed before the fall, and that Jesus never appeared to the prophets in the Old Testament. Truly, RCism is theistic atheism.

>> No.18741761

Previously: >>/lit/thread/S18718481#p18723347

>Indeed, Job finally yielding to "God" (if this interpretation is correct) would make him guilty of affirming "God's" murders, not to mention of a kind of self-murder whereby the initially truly innocent Job is murdered by the final guilty Job, thus retroactively justifying his suffering. Classic Yaldabaoth.

>> No.18742015

>>18739208
>whites wasting time discussing neurotic jew stories
Christianity is a disaster

>> No.18742018

>>18741761
imagine linking to your own post through the archives
it wasn't that pithy

>> No.18742073

>>18741459
But that's impossible to achieve, even in an artistic story like Job's.
So what, we're automatically not worthy of God's compassion just because he made us imperfect in the first place? We should strive to be righteous, even though that's impossible to achieve 100%? Even the most righteous man falls victim to bad impulses. We're animals, don't forget.

>> No.18742082

>>18742073
>we're imperfect and etc
But our quest is to be perfect. That's what righteousness is about. Focusing mind and soul so much in God and so less in the creatures that you become like God
>I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; Psalm 82:6

>> No.18742135

>>18740173
>death holding any meaning to a true believer with an immortal soul
surely you can do better than m-m-muh d-death?

>> No.18742292

>>18739208
I'm an atheist but I accept the story as meaningful and valuable.
>You have some rules on how to deal with world that you know to be true
>Sometimes, things will turn out shitty even if you follow the rules and do everything right
>When that does happen, keep following the rules, while keeping faith in their usefulness

To a reasonable extent, of course.

>> No.18742600

>>18742082
Sure, it's our quest. But an impossible quest. So why be punished when we inevitably fail?

>> No.18742607

>>18741459
this post is ridiculous, you're a psychotic.

>> No.18742650

>>18742607
and you're a hylic.
>Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

>> No.18742654

>>18741459
>>18742650
you do not believe this shit yourself

>> No.18742656

>>18742650
>guy who thinks love can only be proven by impassivity in the face of divine torture calling someone else a hylic

>> No.18742711

>>18742656
If you don't love God's will, how can you say you love God? Or you love God's "divine torture" or you don't love God at all. Otherwise, you're bargaining with God, that's no love.

>> No.18742718

>>18742711
literal psychosis, take your NPC emotional dampeners and report to your designated wage cage, you're late.

>> No.18742745

>>18740677
That's literally how life is, the bible concerns the human experience.

>> No.18742757

>>18739208
is something protestants will never get.

>> No.18742900
File: 3.20 MB, 2000x1404, 47b7662727b7150bc00ed2115c66ec8af09ff0b0af20db33fd28e5ec846cd955.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
18742900

>>18739208
The story of Job expands on Ecclesiastes, that in general posits that all people are mired in sin and faced with an incomprehensible God. Job fulfills this pattern by being punished for a morally incomprehensible reason, and then when he is in this state of suffering, he eventually brings himself to curse God in everything but name. As a result we learn that all humans are dependent on God's grace, and have no inherent morality or principles, since Job thought at the beginning of the book that he would never curse God.

In other words the character of Satan in the book really lays out an orthodox argument about man's inherent lack of worth. Satan in Job thus demonstrates his character by being knowledgeable, yet merciless. With God's mercy out of the way, and Satan in control of the scene, Job gets what every man deserves.

We have to judge whether we prefer God's handling of the situation to Satan's. Do we prefer unequal sharing of God's grace, or do we prefer to be all equally miserable under Satan?

>> No.18742950

>>18742900
>grace

>The Catholic argument that grace is an intervention proactively coming strictly from without is absurd. The common denominator of all grace theory is that one can do nothing to receive it, that it does not thermodynamically communicate with anyone or anything, figuratively and/or literally. However, the motif of all grace theory is that one receives it ultimately because one needs it. The contradiction here is not only typically Catholic, the world is a catastrophe even though it is God's magnum opus and such, but exclusively Catholic in that it is deliberately explicitly absurd to make one look for coherence in the implicit. Incidentally, the Catholic is once again the only one doing what he is accusing the Gnostic of. The former's encyclopedic knowledge of the latter's proclivities is a mirror. The contradiction being that, Ontologically, grace is said to come from without but its cause is not even from within but the within itself, Teleologically. I do not suppose that even the Catholic can speak of grace without a recipient, it therefore can be said that it is proactively given by God inasmuch as it is proactively needed by man. Far from being Dialectical, this suspension is a categorical subordination of the above to the below. Grace is yet another discharge of an excess or filling of a lack, going from God to man as a stone rolls downhill. Worse still, it is more thermodynamic than thermodynamics: it is not so much that it mires the Theological in the thermodynamic, rather, the thermodynamic expands to engulf both parties, the very form of all things is made thermodynamic. Moreover, grace as such is the polar opposite of an intervention from without and is only distinguished from worldly things by being the most worldly thing. It is common knowledge that all matters of Catholic Theology are merely apotheoses of (bad) Phenomenology, i.e. God the Father is the perfect predator and the Son the perfect prey, however, note the implicit perfidy that grace as such is, again, not congruent with ideas of the implicit Garden wherein grace is a perfect thermodynamic agent of a thermodynamically perfect world, but a Demiurgic comedy of a Cosmic arbeit macht frei. Explicitly, the Catholic claims worldly matters are of utmost importance yet claims that grace has practically no effect thereon. Implicitly, this contradiction has the gravest implications. Consider its resolution in the argument that grace itself is the cause of any and all things grace allegedly delivers one from. That its engulfing of sin is so great that it even gets under or behind it, to its very inscription into man, propagation into the world, and perpetuation of its own necessity; the final perfidy. Consider Reason as the true intervention. Its very form, opposing the Empirical, is literally the only thing not of the world. Salvation is a truly abortive process, not the Earthly bud blooming into the Heavenly flower, but the egg cracked from the outside.

>> No.18742988

>>18740051
unironically what you've just said is the most accurate interpretation of Job in this thread

>> No.18743028

>>18740051
>>18742988

What distinguishes this from Atheism?

>> No.18743170

>>18742950
This author's words are so foolishly and ignorantly composed I cannot believe that you understand them. I have tried to understand it but all it amounts to is a long-winded and mendacious insult from at best a second-rate philosopher or third-rate Gnostic, implying that Orthodox Christians are materialists.

But it is just what you get wrong; in your great hurry to be "spiritual" you are running away from the body. But there is no such thing as spirituality without the body. Even heaven is not an immaterial realm of spirits, but a restored Eden with all its corporeal form made incorruptible. But go back to your pagans and intellectuals; you clearly don't care about the faith of ordinary men, you only want what satisfies your vainglory. You don't care about the preacher, so long as he preaches that you are wiser and more clever than others, even though you are really uneducated enough to think these absurd ravings are worthy to quote.

>> No.18743203

>>18743170

Is this not mere myopic paganism?

>> No.18743225

>>18743170
He sees farther than you, and I know it for a fact.

Don't embarrass yourself like this next time, he wasn't even talking about corporeality in Heaven lmao, jesus.

>> No.18743235

>>18743028
>The goal of Christianity is to distinguish itself from random human ideologies that change as quickly as the seasons
Why do you believe this is important when it clearly isn't? Jesus Christ said "hear and believe" not "defend the idea that my doctrines are entirely unique on the internet for all eternity."

Though I don't entirely agree with what they've said, I know that they are right to say that part of the message of Job is that humans don't have a right to answers. And even Epictetus the Stoic knew so, and said "treat yourself like an actor in a play, and be content to play the part that God gives you as naturally as possible. No matter if your time on the stage is long or short or if you are to play a merchant or a beggar." (my paraphrase).

So not every Christian idea is unique or needs defending from people who can say the same things without believing in the Christian God. Nobody should be this concerned with the opinions of other people.

>> No.18743264

>>18743225
>He wasn't talking about corporeality in heaven
I know he wasn't because he wasn't talking about anything, just word-salad. And that's the last time I'll even consider your shit argument. Anyone who can't speak clearly and concisely doesn't know what he is talking about, so I will let others be the judge of which of the two of us is the greater fool.

That is unless you care to enlighten me on the supposed meaning of the greentext word salad here >>18742950

>> No.18743277

>>18743264
>le word salad, le ramblings, le ravings, le incoherent nonsense
>le speak clearly, le speak concisely, I don't understand
The eternal mark of the pleb. Humble up, little nigga.

>> No.18743301

>>18743235

Why not simply be an Atheist then and submit to the vacuous Cosmos? What would change if you did? Nothing, I maintain. It seems that God is superfluous here.

>> No.18743313

>>18743277
>Pleb
I never pretended not to be a pleb, but if you're such a big-brain nigger, you might actually be able to condense the greentext for my smol brain to comprehend. After all, if you really are all that intelligent, then this should be easy enough for you, so why wouldn't you? Unless you can't actually think yourself out of a wet paper bag.

>> No.18743343

>>18739596
asian hands wrote this in a pastel hoodie

>> No.18743380

I imagine that those ITT who don't understand Job must be severly lacking the divine sense of gratitude for existence itself. Meditate on mercy.

>> No.18743415

>>18743380

Why should one be grateful for it?

>> No.18743426

>>18743301
God is superfluous to the point we are making here, yes, since we have all more or less agreed that Job is a moralizing story.

Technically though, none of the Bible ever makes a point about God that couldn't be replaced with submission to a vacuous Cosmos. Perhaps this is why atheism is so popular in the West these days, it allows the continuation of Christian impulses under new titles. Although you must also admit that submission in this sense is an inherently religious idea, and not one that an atheist will typically agree with.

But the Bible will never make up anyone's mind for them, and that's just got to be accepted.

>> No.18743429

>>18743235
Christianity, too, changes and has changed.

>> No.18743458

>>18743426

Isn't this exclusively toward my point?

>> No.18743604

>>18743429
No it really hasn't

>>18743458
Maybe I'm not being clear enough. My original point was that Job is really a story about God's grace >>18742900 Perhaps there is some philosophy in which grace is attainable from a vacuous Cosmos, but it impairs the moral of the story.

The moral of the story only makes sense if humankind is metaphysically equal. Satan uses this idea to argue that Job is actually much worse morally than he appears. What Satan suggests is a bit like communism; Job, Satan argues is not actually more moral, he is just given all this grace in the form of material goods. Satan says just remove this, and Job will be exposed as a bad person.

So do we choose equal misery with Satan, or unequal happiness with God? It's a moral question of envy versus generosity that determines if we are on God's side or not.

But the argument suffers substantially without God or an afterlife. Since without an afterlife, then generosity has less reward than it would otherwise.

>> No.18743628

>>18743604
>The moral of the story only makes sense if humankind is metaphysically equal
>What Satan suggests is a bit like communism

hmmm

>> No.18743648

>>18743604
>No it really hasn't
Compelling argument

>> No.18743659
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18743659

>>18739208
>>18739220
>but what's the point of this story?
ez

>> No.18743673

>>18740051
>God doesn't answer to you. Imagine trying to call a supreme being who can see and know all time, space, etc, a hypocrite. It's simply retarded.
This. Even if God isn't benevolent and he simply created us cause he wanted entertainment, fuck you gonna do about it? His power and being transcends human understanding.

>> No.18743700

>>18743415
Because existence is better than non existence.

>> No.18743721

>>18743648
Ok you want more; first off, we all believe in the Trinity, in Baptism, the Communion of Saints, the Resurrection of the dead etc. These ideas were worked out by the early church, and we Christians all maintain these beliefs, and have done for 2,000 years.

Secondly, it is an article of faith. If you don't believe it, then you aren't a Christian, which you can choose not to be.

>>18743628
Of course, what God suggests is hardly capitalism, but the point is that commies are driven by envy to steal property and call it revolution, just like Satan is driven by envy to attack Job.

Of course, equality itself is impossible to dispute, since it is founded on the knowledge that we are all mortal and sinful.

>> No.18743753

>>18743721

Going form admitting your Materialism to impressionist poetry. So THIS is the power of Orthodoxy!

>> No.18743761

>>18743700

What makes you think so?

>> No.18743762
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18743762

>>18739208
>read Ecclesiastes
>Meaningless! Meaningless! Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless.
>There is nothing new under the sun
>all we do is toil under the sun until we die
>explores God as an incomprehensible cosmic entity, which is where Lovecraft got the inspiration of his mythos from
>the last chapter is "Existence is incomprehensible and everything is vanity, so fear God and keep his commandments"

did I get filtered?

>> No.18743770

>>18743761
The fact that you haven't offed yourself leads me to believe you agree with me.

>> No.18743784

>>18743770

Hardly, how would I know that performing the deed yields the intended result?

>> No.18743798

>>18743753
>Filtered
Whatever faggot

>> No.18743817

>>18743784
Kek. But then you accept that what you know is better than what you are ignorant of. So you agree with him anyway

>> No.18743819

>>18743798

The fact that it also commits the very intellectual feats that you are trying to accuse me of, vainglory, takes the cake.

>> No.18743835

>>18740264
>>18740360
>>18740374
I think Tolkien expressed it best with the end of the Lord of the Rings. Frodo's goodness didn't destroy the ring. Gollum's lust for the ring destroyed it. Good may not always win, but evil will always destroy itself.

>> No.18743843

>>18743817

No, I am not ignorant of non-existence and it being better than existence and consider existence to be categorically worse in all ways. Existence itself, what I know, is what sullies the potential transition, Epistemologically speaking, not non-existence.

>> No.18743848

>>18739208
fuck thats a good painting

>> No.18743858

>>18743762
>I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
>Ecclesiastes 3:14
Fearing God is not really a non-sequitur; life is really scary actually.

>> No.18743898

>>18743819
You have zero reading comprehension so I don't care to prolong this miserable intercourse in which you fail to understand the meaning of vainglory, materialism, impressionism and many other words besides. It was obivous that you were an idiot ever since you failed to explain your own greentext when invited to do so.

>> No.18743935

>>18743898

Nothing you said about Job is in the Scripture itself, it's all your own vainglory.

>> No.18743953

>>18743843
You are ignorant of non-existence since you never did not exist; before you were born, you were not. Consequently you are ignorant, not epistemologically or ontologically, you are empirically ignorant. And since epistemics and ontology are made up bullshit by philosofags, that means that you are simply ignorant.

(With apologies to all Young Werthers and incels.)

>> No.18743968

>>18743953

Does your own tradition, and the Scripture you claim to believe in, not affirm the preexistence of the soul?

>> No.18743987

>>18739551
I'm a Christian and I love both

>> No.18743988

>>18743935
Oh so that's your definition of vainglory, interesting, I had thought that vainglory means pride in vanity as it normally does. Which is why I used it to describe your greentext that you still can't explain to me, since you posted it hoping only to be perceived as intelligent, then you were pissed off when I called on you to explain what it means, since I was half-hoping to learn something. Instead all I learned from you was the art of lying tenaciously.

>> No.18744005

>>18743968
Is that something Catholics believe? I'm Protestant. Also while God certainly knows all of us, I don't see how this would be an impediment to our own ignorance.

>> No.18744016

>>18743988

Yes, your explanation of Job is vainglory, it is nothing but vain since it is neither Scriptural nor Rational, nor even congruent with Orthodox tradition, I'd wager, and it is obviously prideful since you saw it fit to post it. The other replies you are referring to where not mine, you can tell by the different formatting, the lack of space between the quoted post number and the text, as well the "reddit" spacing of the individual sentences.

>> No.18744032

>>18743968
Also, claiming that you have been since the beginning (as a spirit), still implies that there was a time when you weren't, and since you weren't, you could not experience not being.

>> No.18744046

>>18744032

What makes you think that experience and non-experience map onto existence and non-existence, respectively?

>> No.18744109

>>18744016
>Yes, your explanation of Job is vainglory, it is nothing but vain since it is neither Scriptural nor Rational, nor even congruent with Orthodox tradition, I'd wager, and it is obviously prideful since you saw it fit to post it.
You are a pure Satan and everyone can see it; first you have the temerity to guess without checking that my interpretation of Job is heretical. You are a contemptible liar and the most dishonest person I've ever had the misfortune of debating with.

Secondly, you think that it is prideful to post things on /lit/. If so then you should leave and not come back to this board, since your conscience recommends it.

>> No.18744119

>>18744046
sobriety

>> No.18744141

>>18744109
>you have the TEMERITY to call me out?!?!

Absolutely DRIPPING with vainglory.

>> No.18744143

Some of you interpret the stories of the Bible too literally. They’re myths and should be understood as such.

>> No.18744230

>>18744143
shit bro i dont want to be punished in this and next realm just because im a retard is that too much to ask?

>> No.18744273

>>18744141
Ok bro, but everyone can see the unfair debate tactics; you can't just wager that my explanation of Job is heretical and expect me or anyone else to take you seriously.

Give us the proofs and stop being a fag

>> No.18744386

>>18744273
>and Satan in control of the scene
>What Satan suggests is a bit like communism
>It's a moral question of envy versus generosity that determines if we are on God's side or not.

On the contrary, you can't just claim that this is...Canonical? Scriptural? Rational? Logical? Grammatically coherent? You can't claim it.

>> No.18744411

>>18739208
I believe the point was that Job was subjected to pain and misery yet never fully broke, the time he truly complained God himself came down and freed him from that pain and gave him more than he had ever had before
So I think the point is to stay faithful through out and God shall aid you when you can not handle it anymore. And at that time you shall be rewarded in heaven more than you could ever imagine

>> No.18744430

>>18739252
It was also stated earlier how his children had been living too lavishly and hedonistic
Notice how it doesn't mention that about his new children?

>> No.18744441
File: 7 KB, 275x183, 1623246287657.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
18744441

The Book of Jerb

>> No.18744442

>>18744386
Dude, trying to explain something to a modern audience isn't misunderstanding it. Here was the original >>18742900

The point is that we are all equally sinners; Satan, out of envy claims that since we are all equally sinners, it is entirely unfair that Job is seemingly immune from suffering. Satan says "take all Job's wealth away, and what have you got? Another sinner, who will surely curse God"

Well, Satan was correct, but his interpretation of the facts is a merciless one. Contrary to God, who is always trying to help sinners come to him, Satan asks God to push Job away into perdition.

All I was saying is that Satan's envy is like how envy motivates communists, who try to break everyone down to be equally miserable and cursed like themselves.

>> No.18744487

>>18744386
>You can't even claim that it is Gramatically coherent
Ok, then how about this? From Job 1:6 - 12? Doesn't this agree perfectly with what I've said regarding Satan's envy? Does it even need interpretation?
>Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

>> No.18744497

>>18739208
Seek help.

>> No.18744541

>>18744442
>>18744487

God claims that Job is not equal to other men. Satan's claim is free of envy and totally dispassionate.

>> No.18744639

>>18744230
“Forgive them, father. For they know not what they do.”

>> No.18744650

>>18744541
>Satan is free of envy and totally dispassionate
You can't be serious.

>God claims Job is different from other men, and calls him perfect and upright
These are just words of praise; there is no attempt to claim Job is perfect in the same manner as Jesus for instance. Job is a man like every other man, and God obviously recognizes this since he hears Satan's argument.

>> No.18744673

>>18744650
>Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
>a perfect and an upright man,
>perfect
>NO LET ME TELL YOU WHAT GOD ACTUALLY MEANS LOL!

Vainglory dripping from every orifice.

>> No.18745246

>>18744673
What? Are you incapable of understanding what a compliment is? Do you think every time your mother called you her perfect little angel that she was speaking literally?

>> No.18745318

>>18745246

I would assume that Scripture contains matter of fact statements, not hysterical twitter material, but if you want to further degrade it then go ahead.

>> No.18745503

>>18741761
>>18744487

Also, note the perfidy: who brings up Job, who singles him out, who puts him under the microscope, who forces tremendous volume of his own unwanted input onto him? GOD, not Satan. In this sense, Satan could be said to be the lesser Evil alleviating the Divine pathology.

>> No.18745565

>>18744673
>>18745318
>Cum reference
>Biblical literalist
It checks out

>> No.18745721

>>18740360
>>18740374
The political left is to politics what entropy is to physics amd entropy always wins. Where did you get the notion that "the left will be dealt with"? Look at Republicans from the 60s and Republicans now. Conservatives may only win occasional short term victories, but the left is playing the long game. In poltics, the arrow of times goes from right to left and not the other way around.

>> No.18745861

>>18741612
>Aquinas believed death existed before the fall

Not true.

> "the sin of our first parent is the cause of death"
Summa, First Part of the Second Part > Question 85 > Article 5: "Whether death and other bodily defects are the result of sin?"
>https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2085.htm

>>18742950
This is a ridiculous take on the Catholic understanding of grace.

It might be noted that many Orthodox misunderstand Catholic's sometime use of the admittedly somewhat confusing phrase "created grace" (also known as "habitual grace").

>The word “created” refers not to the *substance* of grace (which is God himself), but to that same grace as it is infused and at work in our *created* natures.
- Fr. Addison Hart

Fr. Hart unpacks this issue in some detail here, in his rebuttal of remarks made by Metropolitan Maximos:
>http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-06-047-f

Somewhat similar to the essentially linguistic, rather than substantive confusion arising over Catholic use of the term "created grace" is the question posed by the filioque, with the East/West crossed wires explained here:
>>/lit/thread/S16154294#p16169515

>> No.18745953

>>18744032
I love the fearfulness of not existing in any religious form true believers exhibit.

>> No.18745961
File: 2.22 MB, 820x4720, 1626276700183.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
18745961

>>18739208
This is one reason out of many Abrahamism is trash. Zoroastrianism didn't have this problem (check image). Granted, original Zoroastrianism did have some unique problems, but Mazdak was reforming it before oppressive Orthodox mobeds killed him.

>> No.18746018
File: 239 KB, 1178x1415, E1PU5_vWEAEOY5W.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
18746018

>getting filtered by the Book of Job
ngmi

>> No.18746243

>>18740677
You can't really argue against it.
Shikata ga nai.

>> No.18746288

>>18739220
>Job's friends insist that his misfortune must be a punishment, but that is not the case.

It kind of was the case though? God was totally cool with the Devil specifically targeting the guy.

>>18740006
Yeah man, schizophrenic ramblings are very profound. Fuck science.

>> No.18746335

>>18739984
Atheism is just secular Calvinism

>> No.18747180

>>18740677
a very common theme in antiquity, the Romans had a godess for it named Fortuna and remained popular throughout the middle ages.

>> No.18747283

>>18739208
>remains pious and refuses to curse or condemn God
? He curses God and rejects all his pious friends

>> No.18747300

>>18741222
the word Satan comes from Ha'satan, the Hebrew word for "the accuser"

>> No.18747313

>>18741459
In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. (Job 1:1)

>> No.18747330

so much coping itt

>> No.18747518

>>18739223
The sort of God people want obviously doesn't exist, considering the state of things. So your choice is nothing, impersonal karma, asshole pagan gods, Deist God that ignores you, or a God that does personally love you but is completely inscrutable. The message and life of Jesus moves me enough to accept the latter, as frustrating as it can be.

>> No.18747615

>>18739208
The problem is to assume that the bible as a whole is divinely inspired. This tale is obviously pastiche of some other prehistoric anecdote and revel on its cruelty because such perfectly moral being as god made a bet with his enemy to fuck soeone over is to miss completely the cautionary aspect.

>> No.18748325

>>18745861
>but to that same grace as it is infused and at work in our *created* natures.

Yes, this is my point. Pure Materialism.

>> No.18748350

>>18747518
i'd be content with a sub-omnipotent god who's trying to make the best of things. i've loved normal people to the point of worship, there's no reason i couldn't prostrate myself before a superhuman.

>> No.18748369

>>18739208
>>God provides no reason for subjecting him to eternal suffering
1. His suffering wasn't eternal and he got all of it back
2. Man provided no reason for detaching himself from God

>> No.18748387

>>18746288
>God was totally cool with the Devil specifically targeting the guy.
God (YWHW) was also cool with the Devil specifically targeting Jesus in the desert and on the cross; do you really think an OT c-lister like Job should be above God's literal incarnate and coeternal Son?

The devil isn't just some nefarious torturer; he's the incarnation of disobedience to God and therefore the very proof of man's potential for freedom and freer love to God.

>> No.18748399

>>18739476
God is WEAK.
Church was a reason for men and women to fuck. Neck yourself if you still believe in faggy gods

>> No.18748410

>>18739476
>the god described in the hebrew bible is an eternal superbeing, asking for an explanation from such a source would be like you trying to justify your masturbation habits to a beetle
strong wordplay anon, I like it.