/lit/ - Literature

Define "ontology"

>>18694696
branch of philosophy concerned with the question of what is

>>18694644
>Where does one go from here?
start with the greeks

>>18694810
I started with the greeks and made my way up to Deleuze, now what?

>>18694793
And what is deleuze’s ontology?

>>18694644
Deleuze + Hegel Synthesis

>>18694859
a bunch of stuff. most famously the rhizome.

>>18694644
Hegel

>>18694917
Nope, rhizome isn’t ontology

>>18694644
>Where does one go from here?
/lgbt/

>>18695199
rhizome is epistemological but also ontological.

>>18695216
What isnt?

>>18694833
Go back to the Greeks

>>18694644
>>18694833
Read Sartre's Being and Nothingness next.

Go back. Read Bataille and Bergson.

>>18694859
Differential ontology approaches the nature of identity by explicitly formulating a concept of difference as foundational and constitutive, rather than thinking of difference as merely an observable relation between entities, the identities of which are already established or known. Intuitively, we speak of difference in empirical terms, as though it is a contrast between two things; a way in which a thing, A, is not like another thing, B. To speak of difference in this colloquial way, however, requires that A and B each has its own self-contained nature, articulated (or at least articulable) on its own, apart from any other thing. The essentialist tradition, in contrast to the tradition of differential ontology, attempts to locate the identity of any given thing in some essential properties or self-contained identities, and it occupies, in one form or another, nearly all of the history of philosophy. Differential ontology, however, understands the identity of any given thing as constituted on the basis of the ever-changing nexus of relations in which it is found, and thus, identity is a secondary determination, while difference, or the constitutive relations that make up identities, is primary. Therefore, if philosophy wishes to adhere to its traditional, pre-Aristotelian project of arriving at the most basic, fundamental understanding of things, perhaps its target will need to be concepts not rooted in identity, but in difference.

yes, you go back to heidegger

>>18696193
Very understandable summary anon. I didn't realize that my philosophy is the direct opposite of Deleuze's (because I am a monist and believe everything to be a disassociation or emanation of the sole underlying entity that simultaneously transcends the sum of its creation).

>>18696181
Humongous dick energy - you impaler you

hes a potato fascist, read badiou instead

>>18696994
I am feeling pretty sovereign, thank you Vlad

>>18696181
this

>>18694644
You work backwards.
Return to Hegel.
Then return to Spinoza, the true endgame.

>>18696156
this is unironically the correct answer. and if you don't get why, you have to do it all over again

>>18697171
Ah yes, the great helmsman is certainly less fascistic than some hippie Marxist.

>>18694644
Kant

>>18694859
Differential Ontology, see pic and:
https://iep.utm.edu/diff-ont/

>>18694859
Chaos and difference

>>18696374
Not him but since identity separates or establishes borders, Differential ontology implies that everything is at the mercy of something and that could be the One.

"And what is good or bad writing or speaking? While the sun is hot in the sky above us, let us ask that question: since by rational conversation man lives, and not by the indulgence of bodily pleasures. And the grasshoppers who are chirruping around may carry our words to the Muses, who are their patronesses; for the grasshoppers were human beings themselves in a world before the Muses, and when the Muses came they died of hunger for the love of song. And they carry to them in heaven the report of those who honour them on earth.

The first rule of good speaking is to know and speak the truth; as a Spartan proverb says, 'true art is truth'; whereas rhetoric is an art of enchantment, which makes things appear good and evil, like and unlike, as the speaker pleases. Its use is not confined, as people commonly suppose, to arguments in the law courts and speeches in the assembly; it is rather a part of the art of disputation, under which are included both the rules of Gorgias and the eristic of Zeno. But it is not wholly devoid of truth. Superior knowledge enables us to deceive another by the help of resemblances, and to escape from such a deception when employed against ourselves. We see therefore that even in rhetoric an element of truth is required. For if we do not know the truth, we can neither make the gradual departures from truth by which men are most easily deceived, nor guard ourselves against deception."

-Phaedrus

>>18694859

it's not that simple;

>As I walk through the many of the possible worlds
>I take account of what is, and realise it's manifold
>As I’ve been thinking and argu’ing so long, that
>even my counterparts think my mind is gone!
>But I ain't never crossed a square that didn't deserve it
>Me be using prim’tive modality you know that's unheard of
>You better watch how you're talkin', and where you're walkin'
>Or you and your operators ‘be lined in chalk
>I really hate the Kripk’ but I gotta lope
>As they cope I see worldmates in the ersatz yoke, fools
>I’m the kinda G that sees all possibillia
>De Dicto in the night, De Se in the streetlight!

>Been spendin’ most their lives
>Livin’ in the philosopher’s paradise
>Been spendin’ most their lives
>Livin’ in the philosopher’s paradise
>Keep spendin’ most our lives
>Livin’ in the philosopher’s paradise
>Keep spendin’ most our lives
>Livin’ in the philosopher’s paradise

>Look at the situation they got me facin'
>I can’t have a modal part, I am bound to this world
>but I gotta get trans-world iden’tiy
>Too much talkin’ got’em chasin’ haecceities
>I'm an educated fool with modal on my mind
>Got my grue in my hand and a bleen in my eye
>I’m a loc’d out gangsta set theorem’ banger
>And this Humphrey ‘jection done arouse my anger, fool.
>It ain’t nothing but a coun’rpart relation
>there, win or lose, through rep’sentation
>the stares are incredulous but then so were they before
>If it will ever stop I’m not sure

>Tell me why are we, so blind to see
>Modal realism, through parsimony

>Been spendin’ most their lives
>Livin’ in the philosopher’s paradise
>Been spendin’ most their lives
>Livin’ in the philosopher’s paradise
>Keep spendin’ most our lives
>Livin’ in the philosopher’s paradise
>Keep spendin’ most our lives
>Livin’ in the philosopher’s paradise

>Square and the diamond, diamond and the square
>Function after function, stare after stare
>Everybody’s talkin’, but half ain’t even startin’
>To understand counterfact’ls, when missing the relata
>They say it’s all ersatz, but nobody here can teach me
>Even with Lagadonian, can they defeat me?
>I guess they can't, I guess they won't
>I guess they front, that's why I know their view is out of luck, fool

>Been spendin’ most their lives
>Livin’ in the philosopher’s paradise
>Been spendin’ most their lives
>Livin’ in the philosopher’s paradise
>Keep spendin’ most our lives
>Livin’ in the philosopher’s paradise
>Keep spendin’ most our lives
>Livin’ in the philosopher’s paradise

>Tell me why are we, so blind to see
>Modal realism, through parsimony
>Tell me why are we, so blind to see
>Modal realism, through parsimony

>>18698881
too long didnt read

to my knowledge, nothing new has been invented. The whole cybernetic, network and rhizome, mandelbrot-fractal-feedbackloop stuff is the newest shit. maybe the knowledge that life is differentiation and repetition is the last truth we get in our lifetime.

still, we don't know what that means for us, i mean for our consciousness and our will

>>18698992
have sex

>>18698992
>nothing new has been invented
Badiou's Set Ontology, OOO, Speculative Realism Schizo shit, Lewis' Pluralism, Non-Philosophy, etc... I won't even mention the large amount of work done in Analytic Philosophy since 1960.

>>18699010
Funny that you mention that, it was deleuze who helped me find my authentic sexual expression

>>18699024
Can you tell me their conclusion?

>>18699032
does that involve taking the sissy pills and inserting objects in your bum?

>>18699024
>NOOOOOO look at all my favorite bugmen

>>18699039
Almost faggot :) you wish you would fuck like me after studying deleuze

>>18699024
>OOO, Speculative Realism Schizo shit, Lewis' Pluralism, Non-Philosophy
he fell for the "forgotten in 30 years", "academy fads masquerading as philosophy" bait

>>18699047
>this is what french nietzscheans really like
The wise old sages were right. There's nothing new under the sun. Most "philosophy" is just cope for people to perform their culture on other people i.e. groom them

>>18699061
>Most "philosophy" is just cope for people to perform their culture on other people i.e. groom them
yes, and?

>>18699061
i thought everybody knows that

>>18699077
>>18699067
disgusting child predators gtfo just lol

>>18699081
you are confusing things. it is about the technique of fucking, i mean the actual erotic theater... it is not about who you fuck but how you fuck... jesus christ go to therapy or something

>>18699090
these are useless analogies.

>>18699101
what do you want to know, take your chance and learn something

>>18698881
Saved for when someone tries to argue that analytic philosophy is not pure autism.

>>18699032
>>18699047
So what is it that you learned?

>>18699160
that there is a difference between fantasy and real doing. when you are with a woman, you need to follow the intensities of your body and not the intensities of your mind. the intensities of your body should lead, not your symbolic conceptions

>>18699187
thats the whole reason why pornography is bad for you, because it fills you with symbolic desires and not with corporal desire

>>18696193
Deleuze is so painfully unoriginal it hurts - literally. "We are time bound so original observations exist in time."

>>18695703
contrarian retard

>>18694644
De Chardin's Phenomenon of Man is probably the end game of all human thought.

>>18699032
I love this post, I also get sexual gratification from reading Deleuze and understand myself better sexually after studying Deleuze. Is that a common thing?

>>18696193
So just platonism. Has Deleuze ever written about Plato’s Sophist?

>>18697182
You are shining: you are the sun my boi.

Ok, enough dick suckery: Is The Cradle of Humanity good?

>>18696181
Based accursed share bro

>>18699024
OOO is fucking trendy dogshit that got BTFO by Peter Wolfendale

>>18696193
>Differential ontology, however, understands the identity of any given thing as constituted on the basis of the ever-changing nexus of relations in which it is found, and thus, identity is a secondary determination, while difference, or the constitutive relations that make up identities, is primary.
I think this is mixing things up a bit. The other anon mentioned that, "this is just Platonism", I think that was a joke but actually there is some truth to it. Deleuze here, as you just said, posits identity as a secondary determination, but this is only valid with respect to a particular manner of knowledge and existence. This is, of course, with respect to empirical knowledge/existence, which is naturally constituted by bundles of permanently fluxing materials and determinations which never possess identity as primary attributes (they are, in essence, formless and without a nature or essence). Deleuze is correct to note that identity with respect to these entities is secondary, because (and it is actually interesting to read Plotinus's lecture on this, in particular Ennead V 5.4(7), How that Which Is after the First Comes from the First, and on the One - this section elaborates on Plato's view that the "nature" of matter is to have no nature, which would be an equivalent of Deleuze's view of difference as a primary determination) matter itself can only be given an identity insofar as the human mind finds similarities between entities through perception and their idea - in otherwords, the identity of physical objects with their ideas is only secondary, physical objects themselves are inherently defined by their differences, whether in attributes or even right down to the basic level of displacement in time and space. Plato just takes this a step further by showing that, although difference is essential to matter (because its nature is difference, ie non-being/becoming), it cannot even gain a relation to identity whatsoever without participating in some way with the forms, which are essential in and of themselves but do not subsist within matter as Aristotelian essences. Hence the idea of differential ontology and physical reality being a reflection or shadow of the forms and the Good.

>>18696181
And samuel beckett, antonin artaud, maurice blanchot, gregory bateson foucault, gilbert simondon, rd laing, charles sanders peirce, pierre klossowski i like deleuze because he refers you to stuff youd had no chance of finding about otherwise.

>That time bateson participated in an experiment sponsored by the US military in which a woman jerked off a dolphin

>a thousand plateaux being named after batesons and margaret meads book on the forms of balinese culture on how balinese mothers would jerk off their infant children into plateaux of intensity without ever reaching orgasm

>>18699428
I hope you like cave paintings and ritual hunt magic. I think you just missed the Princeton sale though. Had a bunch of Zone titles.

>>18699778
Really that's my favorite part of Deleuze, reading his sources, many of whom are less opaque. I've wanted to read Dumezil but I think he is out of print in English and I don't know French.

>>18699751
>physical objects themselves are inherently defined by their differences, whether in attributes or even right down to the basic level of displacement in time and space
Has any one attempted an ontology based on the concept from physics of the universal wavefunction? These ideas smack of a coherance with the idea that the universe is a whole wavefunction of which everything is a obbling permutation, connected to all as a unified quantum field, but distinguished from others as a quanta/particle. Perhaps Bohm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicate_and_explicate_order

>>18699187
Sounds good, I can agree with that, but what does that mean in practice? Just edging until you feel that cooming is good enough, or more focus on foreplay or is it just a roundabout way of saying you're into spanking and wax?

>>18699268
I think you're reading an epistemological idea into a metaphysical framework or something.

>>18699360
Platonism is still rooted in identity because of the abstract nature of its ideals. And yes, Deleuze has written about Plato quite a bit, both in his books and in an interesting essay, not sure if he ever focused specifically on The Sophist though.

>>18699816
Sounds a bit like Leibniz's monism. Deleuze liked Leibniz a lot, but the relation always felt strange to me, like it was more forced than others.

>>18699816
I don't know enough about quantum mechanics or physics I'm afraid, I just like Plato a lot.

>>18699778
Wait until you learn about how Castaneda became a cult leader with a harem later in life. The details are some of the funniest I had read in an article in a long time. He was screaming at his harem members for being Jewish, had a vasectomy then claimed his divine sperm can't impregnate mortals and other stuff like that. I agree with Deleuze that his writings are very vitalistic and life affirming though.

>>18699886
>>18699778
pls more fun facts like this

>>18699282
Why wouldn't it be? Deleuze was all about flows and connections, including or especially bodily ones. He even wrote a book about masochism and one of his central concepts, the Body without Organs, is very indebted to it.

>>18699897
Pierre klossowski was a polish aristocrat who wrote books on nietszche and the marquis de sade, his brother balthazar or balthus was an artist known mostly for his paintings of preadolescent girls in suggestive posses. Balthasar's son stanislas klossowski de rola became known as a notorious dandy in the swinging london era hanging out with william s burroughs the beatles and the stones. After a magazine photoshoot revealed he was living in sin with two women his father got mad. A disgrace to the good names of the counts of klossowski!

Also william s burroughs being fascinated by the count or korzybski(another polish aristocrat's system of general semantics). "Human is an adverb its very use as a noun is regrettable". Korzybski thought burroughs was a disturbed individual who didnt understand general semantics.

Also burroughs was obsessed by scientology (incidentally plagiarized from korzybski's general semantics) but thought l ron hubbard was a fascist because he didnt want to have orgies all the time. Also scientology being a front for the office of naval intelligence, charles manson being one of their alumni and also they took over the nation of islam after malcom x assasination. That buckbreaking documentary was probably greenlighted by someone at the office of naval intelligence.

>>18699989
We need more polish aristocrats and less anglo bugs

>>18699778
>That time bateson participated in an experiment sponsored by the US military in which a woman jerked off a dolphin

>>18700004
>>18699778
I believe that dolphin thing was related to early research on LSD, some time before MK ULTRA. Bateson also worked on propaganda studies for the CIA apparently.

I had a professor who was very interested in the Palo Alto school (Watzlawick, Milton Erickson and others) and touted them as being very underrated at least in most of the world and also important for fields from psychology to semiotics. At the time I had no idea Bateson was associated with them as well. Maybe I had heard the name and thought nothing of it since I wasn't as familiar with Deleuze back then.

>>18699989
You're reaching /x/ levels with those last sentences. But I agree that there's a lot of shady stuff going on there.

Klossowski's book on Nietzsche was dedicated to Deleuze. Deleuze was a high schooler or something like that when he first met Klossowski, who was 20 years older than Deleuze. I wonder if there was any buggery or similar going on, given how sexual both of their works can be at times. Although Deleuze was more of a family man later in life so maybe not.

>>18694897
Why has nobody done this yet? Is somebody trying?
When I read D&R and Deleuze talks about being in total opposition to Hegel, I immediately thought how this was part of a bigger movement that should sublate Hegel and Deleuze

>>18699845
Identity and Difference are constitutive of the Forms and their instances. Read the Sophist.

>>18699816
>unified quantum field
he called it the body without organs

>>18700221
that was my thought too, it sounded very deleuzian

>>18699360
Yes, the whole of D&R is in response to Plato and he himself says that he basically just makes the next tiny step to complete Plato's idea. He also talks about the Sophist, but I can't remember what he says about it right now.

>>18699897
Charles sanders peirce causing a scandal in staid boston society after divorcing his wife and then immediately to marrying a woman called juliette who variously claimed to be a gypsy and a descendant of the house of hapsburg and was rumored to have been a prostitute

>>18700220
But what is the relation between difference and identity?

>>18700220
Whiteheads remark about footnote spawned a giant amount of pseuds who read a couple of dialogs by Plato and reduce everything post-plato to his philosophy without even trying to understand anything

>>18699897
http://www.critical-theory.com/deleuze-guattari-biography/

>>18700279
Whitehead is a retard, Plato is genuinely wiser than almost all other philosophers, that's why everything comes back to him. Plato was basically correct all along.

>>18700244
Nice to know it, I should get to reading D and R soon.

>>18700253
For Plato things are constituted by what they are not too. The Sophist go into this issue about what Being and Non-Being are and what is their relation.

>>18700279
Whitehead is not wrong. In any case you think that it makes no sense to recall Plato’s Timaeus and Sophist on non-being/difference in a discussion about Deleuze, who posits Difference as a constitutive element of his philosophy?

>>18700306
But that was Whitehead's point, wasn't it?

>>18700323
>For Plato things are constituted by what they are not too. The Sophist go into this issue about what Being and Non-Being are and what is their relation.
It's been ages since I read anything by Plato, but from what I can remember there is a certain asymmetry between Being and Non-Being going through Plato, where things closer to the Forms (Truth, Justice, Beauty) have more Being than those who do not or who are simulacra, pretending to be what they are not. Deleuze follows Nietzsche in going against this model with concepts such as the truth of the illusion (or the power of the false, which is different than just the effectiveness of the simulacra or of the lie). There still is however an asymmetry of Being and Non-Being in Deleuze which has Non-Being acting more as a mode of Being rather than its opposite.

As for Identity and Difference, nobody would state that you can simply have one without the other, that's not the point. Deleuze claims that Identity was given a privileged position in the history of philosophy even if unintentionally. Thinking pure Difference is conceiving of Being as a process of perpetual differentiation that precedes and makes Identity possible to begin with, even if the two go hand in hand afterwards (with a slight asymmetry). Of course one can always reintroduce Identity as a founding principle (by saying for example that Difference is Identity as a principle, all things differentiate), much like one can always ask when the very first Eternal Recurrence took place even if the very nature of circular time does not permit such a linear question.

>>18699751
That's making my head spin, but it's fascinating. Reminds me of Nietzsche's idea of The Shortest Shadow, which is a kind of pure immanence of values.

>>18699860
Meant to say monadism, although I suppose you could argue that it's a monism in some sense.

>>18699788
I'm in denmark anyhow so i have to find ways to avoid extreme toll - so that sale is prolly not for me anyhow. Saw a documentary about Lascaux while cuddling with the gf and that was really nice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kULwsoCEd3g

>>18700415
Forms are ''more beings'' than their instances because of an ontological distinction. Plato will say in the Sophist that Being has non-Being and non-Being has Being, they are mutually necessary for the rest of manifestation.
>There still is however an asymmetry of Being and Non-Being in Deleuze which has Non-Being acting more as a mode of Being rather than its opposite.
I'm not even sure if there is such an asymmetry in Plato, for both in his protology and in the phenomenal world, the One and the Dyad are the principles, the Limited and Unlimited, Unity and Multiplicity.
>Thinking pure Difference is conceiving of Being as a process of perpetual differentiation that precedes and makes Identity possible to begin with
In the Parmenides Plato writes about the One that is as being one and what is, as the One-Being being already Two. For Plato there is no one over the other. His protology makes room for this interpretation, but there is also room for more sophistication, I would say, like in Damascius.

>>18696181

This is the shelf of someone who fucks. In fact I'd like to fuck you.

>>18694859
Unironically transgenderism and queer theory

>>18700648
There is certainly a lot of influence there, especially in thinking the One and the Multiple together (which is what Deleuze means by multiplicity). And maybe I'm going too much for a textbook (or stereotypical) reading of Plato when there's no reason to, a productive reading should be emphasized over technicalities. This is mostly due to my limited knowledge of the subject.

But it is important that you brought up the ontological distinction because I think that's what Deleuze, again following Nietzsche is trying to avoid, in order not to reintroduce transcendence into immanence through it. Deleuze's model instead focuses on a kind of universal singular where the singularity of every relation is emphasized over the fact that it can be classified as a particular under a general. It's difficult to conceive of in practice because our tendencies go towards Identity, both in everyday objects and in more abstract notions such as the Forms. But there is a level of primordial contingency that is hard to describe because it seems to become meaningless in how open it is. There was a very interesting moment in Plato's focus on geometry where he states that you can only go up to a certain number of regular geometrical shapes before you can only create irregular ones or something like that, I forgot the technical details, but it is still true today. That sort of approach is much more accessible to us than trying to think some kind of pure contingency that then births every rule, sometimes leading to stable planes of immanence such as ours, but maybe sometimes not doing that. Chaos in this sense goes against our strongest traits as humans, which are related to classification and logic.

>>18700728
That's one way of putting it, kek. But there is a certain obsession with Identity in these things, even as they try to avoid it, which is not at all Deleuzian.

>>18699360

Deleuze talks about the Sophist at length in one of the appendices of Logic of Sense if you're interested - the appendix is called 'The Simulacrum and Ancient Philosophy', and there's a section where he talks about how Plato himself sort of sowed the seeds (albeit unintentionally) for the project of overturning of Platonism, that is, essences, resemblance to the Good, identity etc.

>>18700739
Ah yes. I too am averse to this idealistic intellectualism that ends up in some sort of acosmism. Plato, despite the many spatial metaphors in order to emphasize the difference between the Eide and their instances, makes the Forms immanent through their instances, his realism can go in this direction to point how things are expressions of the divine.
What is very interesting, and which is something more obscure in Plato since this pertains to his unwritten doctrines, is that the there is an intimate correlation between the One and the individual things, the highest and the lowest. I’m afraid this won’t make much sense, it should be better expressed but:
the unity that is neither the One itself nor the dyad but their mixture, the expression of the goodness of their union, of the action of the one upon the dyad showing its goodness in embracing the dyad within itself and ordering it, and of the dyad in its formed and ordered plurality affirming the existence of its multiplicity in its own determination and unity. the unity is the measure par excellence it is the beginning and end of being, its highest determinator and the last determined, that is, the universal and elementum primus or the simplest. The interpretation of Aristotle’s Categories by the neoplatonists shows this, Aristotle also expresses this relation between the transcendent with the immanent when he speaks of a natural order and a rational order. The transcendent advances forward while the immanent, the phenomenal world, returns.

There is a tendency to disregard the contingent relations indeed in platonism, and I think our contingent history (in the universal and individual senses) reflects perhaps what you said about primordial contingency. I think it is here where Will plays a role, and the reason why I see the Divine-Primordial Will from and as pure Freedom itself, which will create, manifest the world.

>>18700739
>Chaos in this sense goes against our strongest traits as humans, which are related to classification and logic.
What about the panlogism of the physical universe, the facticity that laws of physics are obeyed even outside of causal horizons (the horizon problem). Physical nature doesn't behave contingently but obeys necessity and laws, hence the attraction of Platonism and forms to scientists like Max Tegmark who dabble in philosophy.

How does an ontology of chaos explain the facticity of panlogism and the principle of sufficient reason in physical nature?

>>18701427
Here's an improvised answer:
First, there is the question of micro and macro and if you can have contingency on one end and necessity on the other, maybe mediated through emergent properties that make it look like it's "necessity all the way". Deleuze would advocate for contingency at the micro level, on account of a kind of vitalism of relations where the relations themselves are the actors so to speak. And the butterfly effect of chaos theory states that minor deviations (differences/differentiations) can lead to disproportional, larger, effects.

There's also another question of scale on a timeframe. Deleuze gives a strange example in D&R where he describes, in a kind of throwaway sentence, a kind of time scale of the universe where if you accelerated it (as you would speed up a Youtube video for example) it would look almost liquid or fluid, even if the movements you're watching are the formation of rocks and things we typically think of as persistent. Maybe laws function on this kind of logic where if you could look at it on a different timeframe or scale they would look entirely different rather than "set in stone" no pun intended.

There's also the fact that Deleuze, following Nietzsche, has this concept of action at a distance ("spooky action at a distance" as Einstein called it) where you can have particles at incredible distances be connected to each other and mirror their effects (I don't know the details, I'm not a physicist) and this goes well with Deleuze's approach to metaphysics (as he prefers the term over ontology) and its emphasis on process, relations, becoming, series, contingent connections and so on. Maybe this touches on the horizon problem better than the previous point, I don't know.

One last detail could be that the laws are different than how we perceive them even if they are still laws in some sense. For example, for Deleuze, repetition with variation (with difference) is the natural form of repetition rather than the laboratory conditions that desire to prove something, such as the existence of a particle, through identical repetition. It's not that there's anything wrong with laboratories, just that you can accomplish a lot even without being entirely faithful to nature.

Maybe there are some better answers out there, I haven't worked on Deleuze in some time so I can't say. Keep in mind that he also uses Nietzsche's model of will to power in a metaphysical sense where something can be determined and indetermined at the same time: a relation or connection can have determinations yet still behave as if it were free of them to some extent, hence the chaos part. By analogy, it's a bit like compatibilism: I have "free will" without being all-powerful, I can choose to open the door and leave the house or choose to stay inside, but I can't teleport through the door to go outside so I am determined (limited) and indetermined at the same time. Obviously, neither N nor D would explain it using these terms.

>>18701427
Never heard of the Horizon problem, pretty interesting, though from what I've gathered the solution is basically that at one point in time, entities which are distant today and causally disconnected were close enough so that interaction was possible.

>>18702227
To make them once have existed close together (locally) requires extreme fine tuning, an inflation tap gets turned on and off for just the right smidgen of time with just enough force to solve non-locality but not blow the universe apart so that galaxies and stars can not form.

I don't think non-locality is essential to the facticity of panlogism, but if the universe requires non-locality, as some theories do (like Bohmian mechanics, or a hidden variable/non-local theory of the horizon problem), then the nature and role of panlogism is stronger. Conversely if inflation is needed to explain the universe it would appear to be an arbitrary contigent act that we lucked out on (along with all the other fine tuning necessary to produce the universe). If so the question remains whether contigent acts of inflation could occur again and blow the universe apart, or if similar universal scale contigent forces could manifest.

>>18701639
>Maybe laws function on this kind of logic where if you could look at it on a different timeframe or scale they would look entirely different rather than "set in stone" no pun intended.
Another explanation is variable speed of light, so that the apparent non-local regions were really local to eachother in the past, but the speed of light has slowed down since then for some reason, perhaps conditioned by energy or the age of the universe or other factors, to produce an apparent non-locality we observe in the present when doing the math with the current speed of light.

>>18702328
>If so the question remains whether contigent acts of inflation could occur again and blow the universe apart
There is a theory of hyperchaos in Meillassoux's work that basically states that the universe could unravel at any moment as its only necessary rule is contingency. It's been too long since I last read anything by him so I don't remember the explanation in detail (it had to do with Cantor and others), but it certainly is interesting. I've heard Deleuze's system being described as very similar to this, but with the added notion that the Eternal Return has a centrifugal force that selects certain more stable relations and eliminates others so that the system becomes more stable in some sense.

I know none of these are physical explanations, but they come to mind whenever models like the Big Crunch are brought up.

>>18696193
>>18699751
>>18700415
>>18700648
>>18700739
>>18701106
>>18701639
I have been trying to write up an ontological essay, had lately been stuck a bit, gotta say, this thread has been wonderful to get me back to it. Thanks a lot to all the effortposters in this thread.
> tfw Husserl threads can't reach 40 posts by more than 10 anons.

>>18702415
>hyperchaos in Meillassoux
Cool ty I'll check it out. I have read a popsci book on emergence (pic) which postulated that the universe self-selects for coherent and sustainable physical laws as they froth up from a chaotic nature, which is similar to your description of Deleuze, to produce an emergent (mostly) panlogical universe that can still be contigent and capable of creative novelty. Stanford has recs for books from the sci perspective:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/properties-emergent/

>>18700760
trannies or gays but the unbearable horror of mass biopolitics and psychiatric power and propaganda. contrast the old notion'queer' identities as countercultural, exposing the 20th century nuclear family as an artificial biopolitical norm. To now where 'queer' identities, are used to re-legitimize those supposedly discredited notions about the 'authentic self', as the pre-ideological truth of the subject that must be discovered through 'objective', 'scientific' authority and made public. And how 'sexual liberation' is an imperative because all sexual impulses must be exploited and commodified and there is no room for ambiguity and you cant talk about how identity is always messy perfirmative and based on trauma. back in the 50s it made sense to promote a nuclear family model, which allowed for relative stability. Now you have to create 'activist' 'liberated' engaged subjects but it is a form of conformism worse than the 50s. The goal is the same create people who can be mobilized as consumers as voters as workers.

>>18702506
no one reads Husserl

>>18702637
Well said, but remember that D&G considered both May 68 and sexual liberation to be failures that didn't bring about real liberation. Still, I think the solution is push through this rather than try to revert to some previous "grandfather" generation by challenging the previous one almost as an Oedipal kneejerk reaction.

What you wrote also reminded me of Zizek's observation that there are now explicitly pro-capitalist LGBT groups that claim that the West is fine as it is no matter the problems since it's the only place where they are accepted. And I'm sure many feel this way, even if they don't explicitly advocate for it.

>>18702733
>D&G considered both May 68 and sexual liberation to be failures
Guattari got fired from his clinic because he encouraged all his patients to go join the May 68 protests. He also had a team of women to go and break up monogamous couples because he considered monogamy a terrible thing

>>18700728
its about being a fag but also being retarded

>>18702733
One can imagine a young man coming out to his non gendered parental units as cisgender and heterosexual and a traditionalist roman catholic. Dxd drops xir monocle into organic onions latte.

>>18702675
Which is too bad, he's quite comfy. The problem is that phenomenology failed in its original task of being scientific and is now one of these disciplines that are good at everything, capable of connecting and discussing every possible topic, but at the same time very limited and constantly going over the same things.

I've been to a major international phenomenology conference a while back and many of the main lectures were just using traditional phenomenologists or German idealists to say what "naive realists" have been saying for a long time, without adding much. It doesn't matter how many times you go over the fact that Dasein and/or ipseity are better than Ego as a generic term, late Husserl already dealt with a lot of that and it adds very little to link it to Hegel in a roundabout way. It has this pattern of promising a lot and delivering very little that's all too common with philosophy as it goes over the same concepts again and again.

>>18702755
There's no contradiction between these statements. In any case, for what it's worth, Guattari was always a neurotic weirdo. I like his writings, but his personal life was a huge mess in every way. Maybe he wasn't even that weird considering that the university of Vincennes supposedly gave a diploma to a horse at one point, as a way for leftists to mock institutions in their march through them.

>>18702910
what the hell is that lula and guattari?

>>18702926
Yep. Guattari was involved with all kinds of weird political and literary movements and met ton of people. D&G even had Borges hold a presentation at a Kafka conference.

>>18703030
Other funny story the first recorded usage of the term 'virtual reality' was at an article antonin artaud wrote for the argentinan magazine sur, which borges edited.

>>18699187
great advice, but the way you display words makes you sound like a pretentious faggot.

>>18699816
>Perhaps Bohm.
yes, precisely. some people consider Bohm to be deleuzian, but I just think he adds extra steps based on physics, which shed light on it in a more detailed way. he's also incredibly based.

>>18694644
Kit Fine, Ted Sider, Eli Hirsch, and Matti Eklund

>>18702733
>they don't explicitly advocate for it
I would say gays do explicity advocate for liberal capitalism now and almost all gay political life now orientates to achieving mutual recognition (in the Hegelian sense) from and of business; making sure their employers and companies they buy from recognise and celebrate gay rituals and events (pride week, pride month, adornment of livery etc.) so that both are sublated to eachother, gays and business as an identity-in-difference whole (or holon) in mutual affirmation.

>>18704301
"gays" aren't a unified political entity and just like concept of the nuclear family isn't inherent to heterosexuality what's going on in politics right now isn't inherent to homosexuality

>>18703281
Based metametaphysics poster. I recommend you Schaffer and Bricker to round out your list.

I will NEVER explain Deleuze to any of you

>>18696193
That should be self-evident to everyone who gave thought to it? The Greeks got this already 2500 years ago, I don't get how this is revolutionary or "final boss"

>>18699053
I'm not saying any of it is good. But to say that there is no novelty in philosophy since Deleuze is disingenuous at best and ignorant at worst.

>>18696181
redpill on Bataille?

>>18704463
True. The so called lgbt community is a disgrace to true perversion and sodomy the divine marquis(de sade) would feel nothing bu the utmost contempt for them. all the remaining recalcitrant libertines have long decamped for the greener pastures of the far right

>>18705734
They befoul the notion of perversion (which is good in principle) by associating it with things like human rights, love, science or the truth, which are undeniably abominable and obscene

>>18696193
Good post

>>18696193
How does differential ontology differ from Hegelian ontology? What you've described reminds me a lot of Hegel's notion for which everything is mediated, and for which every in-itself already contains its other (so that trying to consider any element in isolation necessarily leads to unilater mistakes)

>>18705734
>all the remaining recalcitrant libertines have long decamped for the greener pastures of the far right
how'd you figure?

>>18703187
he's fine, you sound like a smoothbrain triggered by big words.

>>18705741
>>18705734
is this how you justify having terabytes of child porn in your hard drive? Truth is things that are just, gain their usefulness and value, without which you can't enjoy life

>>18703281
just looks like more made up bullshit

>>18705321

First have a knowledge of Marx and Freud

Read some essays by Bataille in this order
The Sacred Conspieracy
Notion Of Expenditure
Solar Anus
The Language of flowers
The old mole
The Jesuve
The Pineal Eye
Solar Anus again now that it makes sense
His text on Sade
The Psychology of fascism

They can be found in Visions of Excess or at marxists.org and anarchist library.

When that is done read the rest of the essays in visions of excess

After this Bataille's work splits up in two complimentary parts: The Spiritual and the economical/sociological.

To start with the top down economical the accursed share is great, it's just more of notion of expenditure.

For the spiritual you can read Inner Experience and work through Summa Atheologica.

Have fun :)

>>18706242
I spell like hell because I'm procrastinating and need to get back to what i need to do.

>>18706242
I would also add the deviations of nature after the pineal eye, it really helps with understanding the heterogeneous vs. homogeneous

>>18706242
Marx really? Even if I am not at first interested in his economics? But even if I do, won’t Nietzsche and Freud be enough?

>>18705751
I don't know much about Deleuze except that he considers himself an anti-Hegelian, on the basis of some weird reading of Neechum. Something something productive differential forces are affirmative, not dialectical.

>>18706452
Read this chapter and you're good:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch07.htm

Maybe also theses on Feuerbach, the german ideology and the introduction of Grundrisse if you feel like you need more when going forward. But that chapter in capital above can take you most of the way.

With old mole the second surrealist manifesto and Theses on Feuerbach and the german ideology is maybe needed - i recommend you read the essay and decide if you need it.

>>18704518
How very undeleuzian of you.

>>18706242
Marxists dot org hosts Bataille's essays? Wouldn't have expected that. I guess they're non-sectarians?

>>18706622
added to my reading list, thanks

>>18704518
EXPLAIN DELEUZE TO ME OR I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU! DON'T DUMB IT DOWN INTO SOME VAGUE SHIT! EXPLAIN DELEUZE TO ME RIGHT NOW OR I'LL LITERALLY FUCKING KILL YOu! WHAT THE FUCK IS A BODY WITHOUT ORGANS? WHAT THE FUCK ARE RHIZOMES? DON'T DUMB IT DOWN OR I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU

>>18705741
>things like human rights, love, science or the truth, which are undeniably abominable and obscene
Maybe I missed your point, but it seems to me that these things can still be used by perversion, they can be a means to an end. I think you would only object to them if they were held as principles rather than as means, but means can often disguise themselves as principles.

>>18705734
>all the remaining recalcitrant libertines have long decamped for the greener pastures of the far right
This is a fascinating point because, as Zizek often pointed out, there is a certain freedom to fascism that is not obvious from its surface (official presentation and doctrine and so on). You get the freedom to control and even physically punish your wife, you get to loot your enemies such as Jewish shopkeepers, you get to use drugs (and the relation between stimulants and Nazi Germany are well documented) and everything else involved and this is quite explicit in what people say and recurring throughout the history of fascism. To me it also reinforces it as a Conservative revolution, counter-revolution or the result of a failed revolution, however you want to phrase it. But then again I'm a leftist so to me sodomy must be consensual, resources should be fairly distributed and drugs should be legal.

Gayest shot ive ever read

>>18706824
Marxists dot org host a ton of stuff, I remember they even had Nietzsche's texts.

In any case Marxism's image was also ruined by the horrific censorship and mob mentality of the real existing communist regimes (alongside the gulags and everything else of course). I remember my professors who lived through the communist period telling me that Nietzsche was banned as "bourgeois propaganda", not to mention all the horrific censorship, torture and death that intellectuals had to endure at the hands of uniformed thugs (often literal peasants). It feels to me that Right Wingers insisting on the failure of communism do not truly understand just how suicidal of a regime it was.

>>18706875
Well you can't get through Twilight of the Idols and think you're keeping a political religion, so even without the fascist necrotic baptism of Nietzsche I can imagine why marxist scholastics would be soured on him.

>>18706253
>I'm procrastinating and need to get back to what i need to do
Story of my life.

>>18706875
Kek at pic

>>18706824
Don't remember if it's Anarchist Library or Marxists.org so wrote both - but both has a lot of stuff.

>>18694644
>Is this the final boss for ontology?
Just skip the French altogether.

bump

>>18698718
cool recommendation, ty anon

>>18707051
yes except for Derrida

>>18706242
Thanks for this. Reading guides like this are some of the best things about /lit/.

>>18709114
awww i appreciate your appreciation

great thread

>>18696193
Thank you for writing this, very informative

bump

ce n'est pas. Derrida est un plus grande penseur que lui.

>>18711372
j'bump

>>18706242
Anon, since you've read so much Bataille, have you read as many works by anyone else? I plan to read Bataille but one worry is that a lot of what he does is either economics or violent Sade-inspired fiction. I liked his article on base materialism. The rest feels like it's competing with the time I could use to read a bunch of other philosophers though.

>>18713348
For me Bataille seems to be a very good forerunner of much french philosophy, he addresses a lot of themes that are later taken up by Derrida, Deleuze, Guattari, Foucault, Lyotard and Baudrillard.

Reguarding your question about reading, I personally had a great fascination early on with Deleuze and Guattari but i cannot tell you that i understood as much as i now understand with Bataille.

If you read Bataille's essays Deviations of Nature, The use (...) of Sade and the psychological structure of fascism together with Ranciere's essay "Introducing Disagreement" and Cental Mouffe "The return of the political" (this text takes carl schmitt's notion of the political and appropriates it for the left) you will have a completely radical notion of democracy: Just if you want to have a good crossfade.

>>18696193
Hegel already did this. This is just Hegel.

>>18702733
How the US legal and electoral system works together with the structure of the university cold war RAND corporation systems analysis game theory paradigm, rational choice theory, the harvard synthesis of keynesian macroeconomics and classical microeconomics, bf skinner's behaviorism, Planning budgetting and forecasting, un millenium development goals all assembled into a giant megamachine of incentive systems that ends up looking like a simplified structuralist model of a primitive tribe replicated in a polity of billions of people.

>>18700214
I combine Hegel with French philosophy generally: hegelsbagels.net

>>18702637
>>18702733
I wonder how current year gender politics will be seen in retrospect. In order to gain legitimation within a positivist legal system, lgbt activists opted for a model were non heterosexual identities had to be innate and biologically determined. Which ironically results in foucault's nightmare scenario. Where the identity of the subject is inextricably bound with a series of assumptioms on institutional power epistemology and a theory of history based on a combination of the repressive hypothesis and enlightenment therapeutic scientism. Whereas a 'gender non conforming'child in the 50s would get bullied as a a fag and maybe subjected to experiments by quack freudians one growing up nowadays is seen as ammunition by several factions in a culture war with electoral and policy consequences

>>18694859
Sucking dick

>>18699193
based

>>18706779
sigma energy

>>18699187
This seems ignorant. Isn't it always both? Why would you even want to ignore your mind's "fantasies" when interacting with others? The human mind is the species' greatest attribute, our assumptions and prejudices and ideals are what can make us far superior to the rest of life on earth. Discard all that, discard your body in other words, and you're like every other animal, which just follows every whim of the stomach or genitals and never thinks about the future.

>>18713668
Are you trying to get doxxed? 'Hegel makes a mistake, he makes a mistake. What mistake does he make? It is a fundamental mistake, in a way it kind of vitiates the whole system, this amazing system that he's made' Do you see how dumb this sounds?
You seem cool but good lord