/lit/ - Literature

>>18639375
His name means monkey lol

>>18639375
I think he might mean that, psychic meaning people's minds. But Christianity doesn't lead to higher states of the being.

>>18639529
It means female monkey

>>18639375
he was far too nice to Christianity considering everything else he said. Evola was more accurate

Exoteric = the outward, observable, practical elements of a doctrine. Broad and expansive but shallow in scope.
The opposite would be esoteric, which refers to the inward, deeper elements of a doctrine which require greater intellectual capacity and study to access.
t. literally just read the chapter on Exoterism and Esoterism in Introduction to the Study of the Hindu Doctrines yesterday

>>18639375
>wtf does that mean? is that the same as the psychic domain?
It means that Plebs can access it as they dont have the BrainPower, the Time, the effort nor the respect to actually "get" the meanings

Check out Schwaller de Lubicz on the subject.

>>18639375
It means he's trying to appeal to Catholics and then convert them to trans-Buddhism.

>>18639642
but he distinguishes between ceremonies and exoteric rites. he says baptism has some non-corporeal effect beyond the merely psychological, but it is only in the exoteric domain. what kind of effect would that be?

>>18639375
If you are asking this question you should probably wait a while before reading Guenon.

>his name means monkey xDD

Christianity is the most complete tradition so he was wrong

Many Jews ITT...
You WILL not gatekeep the knowledge anymore.
Say goodbye to the only thing that makes you feel superior to others.
Guenon (pbuh) exposed all the truth which you've concealing from the world, and refuted all your counter-initiatic organizations.
The Primordial Aryan Tradition WILL be revived and there's NOTHING you can do about it.
Best you can do is seethe and cry about it.
Irreversible damage has already been done and the inevitable is coming.
>Yes I saw you in the talmud thread

>>18641404
It lacks the equivalent of accessible initiatory orders which are found in other traditions like Islam, Taoism, Hinduism etc

>>18639375
imagine the legacy of your life's work amounting to being a meme on 4chan that people who don't actually agree with any of your theories merely post for (You)'s

>>18641693
Doesn't matter, the sacraments are "initiatic" in themselves

>>18641712
It does matter, because they are not the same as or equivalent to initiation into esoteric orders because they don’t confer any higher metaphysical knowledge like initiation into esoterism does but they are instead available to all alike and they do not require any introspection or understanding of one’s own being.

>>18641758
Doesn't matter, and you're wrong

>>18641784
>Doesn't matter,
It does in fact matter, because the accessibility or inaccessibility of esoteric teachings to a broader spectrum of various members of a faith can have a significant effect upon their religiosity or the seriousness with which they take their religion. People who never personally encounter the deeper metaphysical side of religion are more likely to abandon it or to question their faith in it. The fulfillment that esoteric wisdom teachings bring can and often do have an invigorating or transformative effect on one’s spiritual life.
>and you're wrong
how?

>>18641701
>imagine being the spiritual patriarch of the highest iq place on the internet
Based. Now tell us about your favorite author's legacy.

>>18639640
The paradox of these Traditionalists is they are always contorting themselves to claim the efficacy of external rituals since they are inherently "Tradition".

>>18641846
Guénon just complicates things. He takes knowledge that is supposed to be intuitive and ineffable and tries to systematize it, ending up with a system that is as bland as it is overcomplicated.
>more likely to abandon it or to question their faith
This is a personal issue, irrelevant.

>>18641885
>I can't understand him that's why he's bad
Not him but have you ever thought about the fact that you might be a fucking idiot?

>>18641903
Ah yes, the usual guenonian argument
>if you disagree with me, then you're wrong
Not interested in humoring your autism, sorry.
Bottom line is: perennialism is wrong, autistic fixation on "esoteric initiation" is pointless and retarded (hidden knowledge is available to those who seek), and crypto-buddhist annihilationism is a spiritual dead-end.

>>18641885
>He takes knowledge that is supposed to be intuitive and ineffable and tries to systematize it, ending up with a system that is as bland as it is overcomplicated.
How? He explicitly states in his books (e.g. in Man and His Becoming) that he is not trying to systematize anything but is just presenting certain eastern and other religious concepts to the reader. You must have misunderstood him if you thought he was trying to systematize anything. Or this is just a lame and half-hearted pasta
>>more likely to abandon it or to question their faith
>This is a personal issue, irrelevant.
Unsuccessful attempt to handwave away the problem. Personal issues which affect everyone or which affect larges masses of people become more than a personal issue because of their prevalence. When people don’t have ready avenues to connect with and be personally instructed in profound religious/esoteric wisdom aside from public speeches and sermons which cater to the lowest-common denominator (being intended to be accessible to everyone in attendance in a church for instance) then they will in many cases lack the transformative insight, experience or outlook resulting from esoteric initiation which confirms their religion and God for them as being the most important or valuable thing in their life.

One recent poll found that only a third of American Catholics agree that the Eucharist is transformed into the blood and body of Christ, for most it has become just another ritual, there is no way that this can be seriously equated with or taken as equivalent to the one-on-one instruction in esoteric knowledge that a disciple receives from their spiritual teacher.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/05/transubstantiation-eucharist-u-s-catholics/%3famp=1

>>18641953
Traditionalism is a system, though. The idea of the sophia perennis, of every religion containing a singular perennial truth allegedly accessible only through specific initiatic lineages, all of this is systematized spirituality.
I used to agree with perennialism, now I don't. As I said, it overcomplicates things, and misses what is most essential, as it makes religion into just another system to be optimized ("I must become initiated in order to be liberated, no matter the tradition"). All traditions are not equal.
>they will in many cases lack the transformative insight
Such insight is still available in Christian mysticism, which is alive and well in the EOC.
Yes, people are turning away from religion and towards soulless secular ideologies, this is what Guenon himself calls the reign of quantity.

>>18641549
>The Primordial Aryan Tradition WILL be revived and there's NOTHING you can do about it.
Right, thats why the fucker converted to islam instaid of writing commentaries on the Salic laws and the esoteric meaning behind Wagners ring cycle.

>>18641979
>Traditionalism is a system, though
No, it's not.
>f every religion containing a singular perennial truth
This is not what Traditionalism claims. Please, stop, your ignorance is irritating.

>>18642011
>you're wrong but I won't say why
Tradlarpers are so predictable.

>>18642014
You're the one making the claims. Time to back them up with actual evidence, otherwise please stop posting.

>>18642023
I explained all of my claims.
You're refusing to address them because you know I'm right and don't actually have any rebuttal. Anything that goes against your worship of Guenon is immediately met with hostility and aggression, this is how it goes with all the traditionalists on this board. All dogmatism, no intellectual substance.

>>18642029
There's not a single actual reference in any of your posts to Guenon or any others where he states what you're claiming he states. Once more, present evidence, or stop posting.

>>18642035
>y-you have to present exact citations from this dude's books otherwise you're wrong
Nice copout. Just say you have no arguments and move on, your sophistry isn't fooling anyone.

>>18642043
>>y-you have to present exact citations from this dude's books otherwise you're wrong
Yes.

>>18642050
>you cannot argue against someone's beliefs without providing exact citations, even when that person's beliefs are well-documented and summarized by many secondary sources
Sure thing, pseud.
So just so I can understand how utterly retarded you are: you're implying Guenon never states that traditionalism is the belief that all major world religions share perennial truths, and that these truths are concealed within the esoteric aspect of initiatic lineages as opposed to the exoteric practices?
Your insincere posturing is so obvious. Why are tradlarpers such slimy, intellectually vacuous sophists?

>>18642059
I just realized it's the exact same as with buddhists, where they'll tell you "you just don't get it, read more sutras" whenever you disagree with any of their claims.
I guess all annihilationists think alike.

>>18642059
>even when that person's beliefs are well-documented and summarized by many secondary sources
It isn't. And no, you cannot argue against someone's beliefs if you don't know what they are.

>>18642077
>still being disingenuous
>still not addressing the main point
>still using "you just don't get it" as his only argument
Sure buddy, keep the cope going.

>>18641979
>Traditionalism is a system, though.
That’s wrong, it’s just an outlook or perspective that people can hold towards religion, Guenon made it clear in his writings that he was not creating a formal system.
>The idea of the sophia perennis, of every religion containing a singular perennial truth allegedly accessible only through specific initiatic lineages, all of this is systematized spirituality.
That’s wrong, not every religion contains these truths, Guenon attacked Bahaism for example. In any case, holding the belief that there is a single truth revealed in different traditions is still just a perspective and not a systemization of anything. Guenon referenced multiple traditions in his writings, but without trying to reduce them to any formal system of his creation. Pointing out how different schools of thought sometimes converge is not systematizing them.

>As I said, it overcomplicates things
Traditionalism and the related study of esoterism/metaphysics is not meant for people who struggle to grasp complicated and subtle concepts anyways
>and misses what is most essential
like what?
>as it makes religion into just another system to be optimized ("I must become initiated in order to be liberated, no matter the tradition").
That’s wrong, because it’s not a systemization of anything but is just a perspective that anyone is free to agree with or not agree with. Your portrayal of traditionalists as saying that initiation into esoterism is needed for liberation is not even true in every instance by the way, but in Advaita Vedanta people who are never initiated into metaphysical knowledge on earth still have the chance to be liberated while in the Hindu equivalent of heaven, the Brahmaloka, and Guenon mentions this.
>All traditions are not equal.
Guenon agrees with this which is why he described Christianity as being incomplete in certain aspects or when he said Shankara goes further into the truth of things than Ramanuja.
>they will in many cases lack the transformative insight
Such insight is still available in Christian mysticism, which is alive and well in the EOC.
Alive and well in cloistered monasteries perhaps, but there is nothing that is readily available to most worshippers, there is no brotherhood/order that many Orthodox can join which instructs them in Christian mysticism, this is no small point but receiving instruction from someone who knows what they are talking about is essential, otherwise people are left to self-study which can easily lead to mistakes, non-comprehension, delusion, prelest, mental illness and so on. Most people would have to choose between joining a monastery, self-studying, or just hoping that they are lucky enough to have a local priest with a deep understanding of Christian mysticism which he is willing to impart. This is obviously an inferior situation to where there are organized orders that exist to provide the correct instruction in such matters, and not just for a few hermits.

>>18642105
>he was not creating a formal system.
As soon as he starts making claims about the modalities of salvation (his beliefs on salvation versus liberation, the brahmaloka and so on), it becomes a system.
>not every religion
Yes, wrong statement on my part, I should've said "most major religions".
Perennialism is still just a belief and interpretation however, and not a truth.
>not meant for people who struggle
Missing the point. The study of the esoteric can be done without paying any heed to the traditionalist framework.
>like what
I've come to the conclusion that perennialism is a mistake because the individual goals of most religions cannot be reconciled and to do so is to gut them of their spiritual substance. What is essential is the truth that is realized in a single given religion; not an alleged perennial truth that is supposedly present in several major world religions.
>a perspective that anyone is free to agree with or not agree with
Yes. I mentioned why it was a system nonetheless above.
>initiation into esoterism is needed
Guenon and Evola believed initiation was paramount to the realization of the truth. The latter was more liberal in his conception of what initiation entailed. Guenon said "liberation" was possible in the brahmaloka for those who had not been initiated while they were alive, but still strongly recommended to find an initiatic lineage since mere access to the brahmaloka does not, in his mind, guarantee anything, and that beings may end up getting spat out into the next cosmic cycle.
>Christianity being incomplete
This belief of his is directly tied to his fixation on esoteric initiation.
>Alive and well in cloistered monasteries
The practice of hesychasm is encouraged among all believers, not just monks. And it definitely is available to all.
>an inferior situation to where there are organized orders
Which are not Christian. This is only a viable argument if you believe Guenon was right.

>>18642008
>converted to islam
Seethe.
You are not the type of person who should be reading Guenon to begin with.

>>18639375
He didn't know the Church Fathers and the heart of Orthodoxy that is theosis. He was to proud for this mystery.

>>18639375
>is that the same as the psychic domain?
No, it means that you can add an esoteric initiation like Freemasonry and work on it because masonic initiaition is just virtual, you need to make it effective if you are capable of that. You have to practice christian catholic/orthodox rites to make it effective.

>>18642293
He knew the Church Fathers and claimed that the very early ones had acces to an actual initiation which was hidden after the Council of Nicaea and baptism was just a shadow of it.

>>18642364
>actual initiation which was hidden after the Council of Nicaea
Gnosticism. But gnosticism is inherently self-initiatic.

>>18642373
He thought that gnosticism had an eastern influences so he wasn't talking about that. He was talking about the original christian initiation.

>>18642378
>the original christian initiation.
It's impossible to really distinguish early orthodox christianity from what would later be considered gnostic

>>18642387
It is impossible to know 100% how original christianity was but at least we know that the gnostics had eastern influences which weren't abrahamic.

>>18642144
>soon as he starts making claims about the modalities … it becomes a system.
No it’s not, because Guenon is just stating his own beliefs and how he views something else as relating to it, he is not taking two different things and systemizing them into something new
>Perennialism is still just a belief and not a truth
This statement is just a belief
>The study of the esoteric can be done without paying any heed to the traditionalist framework.
I didn’t say people had to, if people have the intellectual capacity to study or pay heed to something, then they can do so without issue
>I've come to the conclusion that perennialism is a mistake because the individual goals of most religions cannot be reconciled.
They conflict in the exoteric domain but are reconcilable in the esoteric without gutting anything, this has already been more than satisfactorily addressed in the writings of the Traditionalists.
>What is essential is the truth that is realized in a single given religion; not an alleged perennial truth that is supposedly present in several major world religions
This is not a real argument against Traditionalism but is just a restating of your beliefs
>>a perspective that anyone is free to agree with or not agree with
>Yes. I mentioned why it was a system nonetheless above.
Wrong, it’s a perspective not a system, a system involves the systemization of different components into something new. Guenon didnt create or systematize pre-existing components into something new which differed from those components. He accepted Advaita and left it intact without changing it and mostly just pointed out how the esoterism of other traditions sometimes converges with it, but this isn’t the systemization of anything because observations aren’t systemizations.
>>Christianity being incomplete
>This belief of his is directly tied to his fixation on esoteric initiation.
It’s not seriously disputable that Christianity lacks widespread initiatic orders that make initiatic into metaphysical/esoteric knowledge a viable option for most people, whether you view this as bad or good depends on how you value such things.
>The practice of hesychasm is encouraged among all believers, not just monks. And it definitely is available to all.
Available only in the sense of being an idea taught in certain corridors which is not rejected as heretical, it’s not available to most people in the tangible sense of there being someone who can instruct them in this in most communities. Instruction in hesychasm is not a part of regular Orthodox church service. If you have to travel to a specialized location or school in one country to learn it, that’s not very available because that’s out of the means of many people. This is unlike in Islam where even the poorest off-road villages in somewhere like Pakistan often have Sufi gatherings. And when most people don’t have this tangible access to hesychasm in their community, it remains unknown to many.

>>18642482
i just heard of Guernon yesterday and found two of his books in the library to start with. can you point me to a site with his explanations of mythological symbolism? his wiki says he started a masonic lodge in France. are there any sources which go more into that?

>>18639375
zucc

>>18639375
Pbuh.

>>18639640
Evola was Gargamel

>>18643605
You can find all of his books as free pdfs using this link or on the website libgen

https://archive.org/details/reneguenon

>can you point me to a site with his explanations of mythological symbolism?
I’m not aware of any secondary sources summarizing what he says about mythological symbolism, but if you use that link above you can open up or download his book “Symbols of Sacred Science” which is his main book on symbolism. Mythology is not his main focus but it comes up on occasion in his books, especially in his books on symbolism, you can use the index at the beginning to search the book by the topic that interests you
>his wiki says he started a masonic lodge in France. are there any sources which go more into that?
Maybe some French secondary sources do, I have not read the English secondary sources extensively though so I dont know

>>18639772
what does he say about circumcision

>>18643779
thank you anon

>>18639375
Salvation of individuality to continue in a human form equivalent (neither hell, nor real deification but the in-between that permits individuality and a start for deification, or damnation).
You prepare a good "reincarnation" to continue the journey.
If you are more deep and are initiated, the sacrament can make you go above human conditions.

Read more before posting a critical thread ?

>>18641693
Monasticism is as accessible as an initiatory order should get, anon

>>18642482
>Available only in the sense of being an idea taught in certain corridors which is not rejected as heretical, it’s not available to most people in the tangible sense of there being someone who can instruct them in this in most communities... If you have to travel to a specialized location or school in one country to learn it, that’s not very available because that’s out of the means of many people. This is unlike in Islam where even the poorest off-road villages in somewhere like Pakistan often have Sufi gatherings. And when most people don’t have this tangible access to hesychasm in their community, it remains unknown to many.
Not him, but I would like to qualify this statement.
The term "hesychasm" is used in a few ways. It can refer to a relatively strict and contemplative supervised asceticism - a known practice among laypeople - but it technically refers to a specific, high esotericism which is even restricted in monastic life. The former is something for which the average priest can very competently refer or instruct you, in even the smallest community (can personally vouch for that), and the latter is equivalent to the highest rank of initiation.
> Instruction in hesychasm is not a part of regular Orthodox church service.
Orthodox mysticism is tutelary in a mentor-student sense, and is not conducive to this definition whatsoever. I'm not sure how useful such a criterion is, because even incontrovertibly esoteric schools such as Theravada and Kabbalah do not initiate into their esoteric practices in their exoteric rites, beyond the very basics. And Orthodoxy does the same. The use of the Jesus Prayer is a common topic for sermons.

>>18641846
not why you're replying to but you're wrong because "esoteric initiation" is pure garbage, all of it.

>>18641693
>It lacks the equivalent of accessible initiatory orders
Unnecessary. Initiation is found through Christ and Christ alone. Rather than traditions that have been degenerated and subjected to human influence over centuries.

>>18641758
>they don’t confer any higher metaphysical knowledge like initiation into esoterism does but they are instead available to all alike and they do not require any introspection or understanding of one’s own being.
Contemplation of Christ covers this.

>>18639375
>this nigga
remove negroisms from your vocabulary

"IT'S NoT JuST CHRiSTiaNiTY; I THiNK THaT ReLiGiON iN GeNeRaL oFFeRS iMMeNSe VaLue To SoCieTY."

All the big religions are bullshit, buddhism and hinduism included. Best is to find a weird religion as obscure as possible

He’s saying that he has grievances with Christianity but the sacraments most definitely are effective for even the exoteric initiates into the faith (i.e. Christianity is valid).

What he really means is “I got filtered by Christianity and in fact, I barely engaged with it at all.”

>>18641693
Learn what the sacraments are before you say dumb stuff.

It’s awfully strange how both Guenon and Evola will point you in a general direction but then take you in many different directions within that general direction except for one very obvious one. Funny how that works…

>>18639375
>Christianity is the world's greatest mystery religion.

He means that they can still grant you a celestial afterlife, but are not initiatic.

>>18647001
Are you talking about their issues with christianity?

His takes on Gnosticism are even worse, frankly.

>>18647001
>except for one very obvious one
YEAH BRO EXCEPT EASTERN ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY WE KNOW ALREADY DIE FAGGOT

>>18639375
A server where we talk about Guenon
https://discord.gg/p2uhwpcx

>>18639642
And what separates true esotericism from fake esotericism?

>>18641885
pretty much this

>>18639375
It's pretty simple, the esoteric/exoteric distinction is an 'inner church/outer church' ie: those with the spare time, money and intelligence to be able to really understand and investigate ideas, and those who are too busy with other things; family, business etc, so instead they inherit a basic form. Most ideological constructions have this model, simple, but with interesting implications.

>>18645026
This. Not even a Christian and the discussion ended here