/lit/ - Literature

>>18627271
he would've just seen it as a petty narcissistic cope for nihilistic last men

>>18627286
this answer does seem most consistent with his thinking, but I can't imagine he would think it's acceptable for a differentiated man to be fat or out of shape either considering how much he talks about warriors and superiority and all that.

>>18627330
BB has nothing to do with being a warrior btw
There's a reason why Mr Olympia and StrongMan are different competitions

>>18627271
He would have favored any athletic discipline as a precursor to realized ascesis but the worship of the aesthetic body would need to be found in a very specific circumstance far removed from the commercial realm it's in today and would need serious decontaminations.

I think it's very obvious he would have favored more extreme sports such as bull riding or mountain climbing or sky diving or even semi-dangerous sports like fighting, and of course, it doubles the valuability if it's "to the death".

He talks about “the cult of the body” in either Ride the Tiger or Revolt.

Another reason why you need to read Jünger. He foresaw things Evola could never have imagined.

>>18627370
I don’t recall Jünger talking about bodybuilding.

>>18627330
Theres a big difference between bodybuilders and fatties as much as theres a difference between bodybuilders and healthy athletes.

Evola would be anti-bodybuilder because bodybuilders are roid-trannies and he'd call them out for not being real men.

>>18627330
>but I can't imagine he would think it's acceptable for a differentiated man to be fat or out of shape either considering how much he talks about warriors and superiority and all that.

yeah but body building is a modernist cope that has nothing to do with the warrior caste or anything like that. it's literally "whos the strongest slave on the plantation" type shit

There is literally no reason to not lift. It takes a minimum of one hour of your time, promotes a healthier lifestyle and positive cognitive effects.

>>18627433
Im sure neither Evola, nor any of us here, would dispute that. What we are talking about is the obessive culture that has developed around it, and the mindset around such people that lifting is itself a be-all-end-allk

>>18627433
There's literally not one reason to lift. Nothing in today's world has anything to do with physical strength, you're better off knowing how to code.

>>18627384
Ernst on health and nihilism:
>>/lit/thread/S16426998
Friedrich Georg on the ugliness of bodybuilding and the difference between olympic and modern sport:
>>/lit/thread/S18312943#p18314493

>>18627472
>you should lift for the big Other
pathetic

>>18627472
The mentality of a slave

>>18627271
Lifting for strength, health and furfillment cannot be btfo'd by anyone

>>18627626
>>18627641
>filtered by basic irony
It might be Americans

>>18627433
> a MINIMUM of one hour

>>18627679
Why do you need 5xl biceps to post on twitter with the trannies?

>>18627271
>>18627286
Having read most of his works, I'd imagine he'd reject the modern culture of aesthetic based body building as effeminate decadence, which is correct, but also approve of basic strength training. Meditation on the Peaks puts forth his view on athleticism, that it should be tied to the world in an attempt to transcend it.

>>18627555
Yeah, "body building" is non-functional, if /fit/ was serious they'd be decathletes.

>>18627340
Judging by the heavyweight mma guys being built fat is ideal for combat, those guys have very good cardio though

>>18627555
> One can foresee that the Second World War, in particular in Germany and Russia, will produce persons similarly formed.
Did this happen? It seemed to exist and still exist more in America than Germany.

>>18627733
I'm not familiar with MMA fighters, but these guys have a very different body shape from, say, Marius Pudzianowski

>>18627733
MMA dudes don't have to march for four days before battle.

>>18627271
I've read his books.
Basically: workout and strong healthy athletic body good, but use it only as a means to an end. Ascesis means training.
He was an active sportsman until he got crippled.

>>18627750
I know nothing about mma either but they seem to never be bodybuilder levels of bf%
>>18627755
All the more reason to have a bit of fat, and I'm sure mma types would hold up in a long March way better than bodybuilders or strongmen

>>18627768
>but they seem to never be bodybuilder levels of bf%
Yeah, it's completely different goals. Nobody gives a fuck about definition in mma. BB is about "beauty" (defined in their own sense), MMA is about being lethal.
I'm quite sure a normal person could die from single mma (or boxing for that matter) blow.

>>18627555
That FG passage is pretty striking. It’s hard not to see the pessimism in that though because I don’t see much of an alternative.

>>18627768
Youndon't want to have 10% bodyfat before going into battle. The chiseled aesthetic is one of survival and return, of the sacrifice which transcends victory or defeat, the same way that Socrates was seen as the ideal for being able to endure hunger like no other. It is not a standard.

>>18627699
Wtf are you talking about schizo

>>18627733
The have a high bf level sometimes but they're incredibly strong.

>>18627786
I never saw much sense in his criticism of sport desu.

>>18627803
Well, I find it pretty difficult to disagree with. I just don’t see an alternative? One of the problems with Jünger and his brother actually. Very few positive alternatives are ever presented.

>>18627555
These instantly reminded me of another guy that his milieu of readers tend to like and that’s Yukio Mishima, who indoctrinated himself into the cult of body and fitness but what they overlook is that he also admitted this was nihilism. You see similar ideas in his books too. He’s a man who resorted to bodybuilding but worships manual labor and the body produced by the sort of machine-free labor that FG talks about. Pretty interesting.

>>18627784
I wouldn't be surprised. People die from untrained randoms hitting them sometimes lel.

I suppose though mma and boxing are not actually that relevant since real combat is done with weapons

>>18627786
True masculinity can only come from a higher sacrifice and purpose. Lifting is a materialist response, an attempt to compromise which will only serve to delay an inevitable end. Or perhaps even worsen it, the same as injecting the economy with fake money.
The old law of letting the chips fall where they may would be a better response. Sex forms from the deepest reaches or not at all. Of you have to will it you've already failed.

>>18627806
Could you summarise his points wrt Sport, I don't know if I understand you

>>18627871
you sound like a fag

>>18627803
It's because you've been thoroughly secularized.

>>18627871
I agree partly, but you also sound like a faggot. Post lifts

>>18627880
>be a faggot like me
Cringe

>>18627881
Pls explain. Real sacrifice should be performed instead of fake competitions eg sport?

>>18627871
Based.
>>18627880
>>18627910
Your nihilism only proves the point.

>>18627911
How much do you lift then. No point talking about true masculinity if you legs look like those of a prison camp inmate

>>18627923
The mechanised technician vs the hunter, rower or fisher who does so for survival

>>18627932
>dude just accept the nihilism

>>18627930
>Nihilism
lol

>>18627881
>>18627876
The bricklayer vs the gym-goer - the eternal physique battle

>>18627876
He says that, if you notice, sport is a product of something like industrial mechanization, a mechanized view of life and the body, and that many of the great sport athletes come out of cities for precisely this reason. The worship of sport across the countryside is less a refutation of that and more something that highlights just how far mechanization has taken hold, particularly in agriculture. So it’s basically an activity borne from the vision of the body as something mechanistic and the lingo of sport is essentially mechanical. I think this quote sums it up well:
> These criteria, however, lack appreciation for the quiet, effortless fullness of beauty; they do not consider relaxed easiness or charm and grace. These viewpoints are deficient in spirituality as well as in sensuality. Unbalance and exaggeration of physique as bred by modern sports are most striking with women. Both their bodies and their faces acquire hardened, sterile traits. Modern sports are incompatible with any kind of artistic life and activity; they are essentially unartistic and unspiritual by nature.

>people itt seriously saying that working out is nihilism
Methinks cope is afoot

>>18627953
>Avoiding the question this hard
Regardless of whether you want to be a mechanised technician engaging in sport or not, there is nothing masucline about being weak. Unless you're naturally strong from your work or life, which I doubt, then you're a bitch.

Hence why it's ironic to talk of masculinity when anyone could impose their will on you and crush your attempt at 'higher sacrifice'

Read this, it has his views on mountain climbing (and sport by extension) and features reports of his climbing expiditons. Comfy stuff.

>>18627971
>people itt seriously saying that working out is nihilism

Yes, see
>>18627953
>>18627930
>>18627871
He is a larper who deserves no respect.

>>18627972
There’s nothing masculine about a worship of pseudo-masculinity either.

>>18627880
I'm sure you think that Masculinity Tabloids filled with repurposed gay erotica makes you a real man.

>>18627971
The only cope is from the twitter larpers not posting face and physique. It's your philosophy yet you only demand others live up to it.
What does that say?

>>18627977
>>18627990
Guys just do some pushups lmao

>>18627837
>real combat is done with weapons
Somewhat true, but martial arts teach you
1)that everything is a weapon
2) YOU are a weapon

Also, if one is a master of, idk, nunchaku or bo or sword, of course he will be able to fight with no weapons too (you can't really bring your bo everywhere)

In the military you learn how to shoot, but also how to kill with your bare hands. You can lose your gun, or use all the ammos, what are you doing at that point? "Eh, I'll just die, I guess"

>>18627981
Holy kek

>>18628007
>(you) are a weapon
This guy calling anyone a larper...

>>18627990
Larping as trad so therefore you don't do any sport, because Junger and others told you it's not trad to be a mechanized technician larper who partakes in sport, so you spend your days arguing on 4chan. Kek, very masculine.

>>18628032
Just give a good argument why he needs to lift already ffs

>>18627981
>>18628019
It's half satirical niggas

>>18627871
Great post. The cross eyed larp and its consequences have been a disaster for the conservative race.

>>18628032
>arguing like a coward faggot

>>18628038
For health, fitness and fulfillment, amongst many other reasons, to be strong in itself, to see yourself develop through struggle and hard work.

>>18627981
>not reading gay porn for the articles
ngmi

>>18628055
Okay so completely ignoring how valid any of that is on its own (plenty of weightlifters who are not only not fit but can barely fucking move), why does it have to be weightlifting? There’s a million different ways to achieve all of that.

>>18628032
You literally cling to some twitter persona istock avatarfagging.
Post face simp.

>>18628050
Hahahahahaha, I think that's what they call a cope.

>>18628042
Kek, some on this board have a strange obsession with him.

>>18627990
Good point

>>18628063
I never said it did. You could so some other sport that requires development of strength for the same reasons I listed. Ok, being an obese powerlifter who can hardly walk isn't impressive, but you don't have to tell me that. Rugby, rowing, shotput, hammer throw, Olympic weightlifting and so on will all develop strength. Or just train for strength AND health in your local gym, you don't get obese or ultra strong by accident.

You're scrambling for an excuse to stay weak.

>>18628032
Larping as trad so therefore you don't do anything masculine, because glowniggers told you it's not judeo-christian to be a democrat larper who partakes in thought, so you spend your days organizing twitter raids. Kek, very masculine.

>>18628065
You argue like a woman.

>>18628064
I don't like bap if that's who you're referring to. Wow, you can workout and not bum some random Twitter personality. Wow who knew.

You're a faggot who uses gay excuses instead of bettering himself through strength training because it's too mechanized and not truly masculine. The seethe generated from my previous reply is absolutely excellent.

>>18628083
Why does it have to be sport at all? Could I not achieve the same by working, for example? Don’t fail to answer the question and respond by saying “you’re just looking for a reason…”

>>18628055
If you're fulfilled by lifting things up and pitting them down you are nothing more than the lowest slave.

>>18628032
>>18628101
>>18628093
>>18628064
When you're bettering yourself through sacrifice with your men in battle and a heavy tree falls on you, but you can't lift it because training for strength is gay and not trad, so you die.

>>18628105
Yeah if your job is very physical then working out is a bit superfluous though many people do both

>>18628041
>i collect gay porn for the nationalist irony
Interesting taste

>>18628105
Yeah I'm sure you could develop strength, plenty of labourers have impressive strength but they're often unhealthy and have poor quality of life as the benefits of youth wear off. E.g a brickie will have strong forearms but probably has a beer belly.

>>18628117
>no video of him benching 2000 kgs
Yet he's larpbaiting

>>18628026
Not sure what you're saying here. I'm an idiot, I'm not good at fighting. But when martial artists get to the point of breaking metal bars on their heads, you think you can stab them?

>>18628103
>gay excuses instead of bettering himself
Where did anyone argue this?

>>18628114
Do you have any self awareness? Reads like some m'lady r*ddit post.

I get pleasure from putting weak nerds on coat hooks, giving them wedgies and taking their lunch money, because they're too weak to resist

>>18628136
No matter how good you are at fighting if someone comes at you with a knife there is a very high probability you get fucked up

>>18628133
There are plenty of gym-goers who are unhealthy, weightlifters especially.

>>18628124
Camille Paglia, who is the only gmilf you are allowed to fuck, argued that Tom of Finland's art is the only real successor to the masculine art of the National Socialists and early Soviets.

>>18628117
>heavy tree falls on you, but you can't lift it because training for strength is gay and not trad, so you die.
Mothers can lift cars if their child is under it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysterical_strength

>>18628150
>gay excuses instead of bettering himself through strength training
>Lifting is a materialist response, an attempt to compromise which will only serve to delay an inevitable end

>>18627910
>>18627880
They're comments from Junger and other authors you cunts idolize. Read more.

>>18628173
Weightlifters as in Olympic weightlifting or those who train for strength/hypertrophy?
To be honest mate sounds like you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I'm sure you've got enough self control to gain strength and not become obese

>>18628174
>Camille Paglia
>Tom of Finland
Hol' up are you faggots seriously not larping?

Not only do I not know a single weightlifter who is beautiful, but every single one that constantly goes on about how I “have to lift” to “better myself” or something is both an obnoxious tool and an idiot. That’s why I don’t work out if you want to the know the truth.

>>18628191
>Someone says post lifts therefore they must be a Junger reader
>Gets angry
>Makes a gay post
(You)

>>18628184
How much do you better yourself by being a background to ethot vids?

>>18628201
You know fuck all clearly because you keep using the term 'weightlifter'. That earlier reply of mine really got into your head lmao

>>18628210
No ethots in my gym kek

>>18628178
>Yeah dude if I need strength it'll just like appear in my time of need dude yeah

>>18627787
Indeed. A worthy body makes a worthy sacrifice.

>>18627271
>ITT: OP's question answered well in the second and third replies and the rest of the thread devolves into bugmen arguing being strong is gay.
Strong 'my wife's boyfriend' energy

>>18628166
>No matter how good you are at fighting if someone comes at you with a knife there is a very high probability you get fucked up
You think fucking Bruce Lee is not able to put your own knife inside your heart?

>>18628218
What would you call someone who lifts weights? A weight lifter…perhaps…?

Damn, this caused some major seething. A good sign that I'm onto something.

>>18627923
Basically in the same way that one does not hunt to kill but kills in order to have hunted, one goes to war in order to experience the absolute violence of the law.
One fights, engages in contests, and tests himself as a form of judgment, to see that he has rightly participated in the law and fulfilled his part.
These acts are not things in themselves, such thinking is the same as liberal individualism and the private man who cannot accept his exile. (Ideas which the anons here would otherwise insist they are no part of, yet their struggle shows how much they are entangled.)

>>18628260
Larp. Do you make bullshit self defense YouTube videos by any chance?

>>18628241
See
>>18627817

>>18628262
Only if you're a normie, hence why I'm not taking anything you say seriously, because I know you're talking from a position of no experience and a bullshitter.

>>18628241
>i worship a gay suicide

>>18628276
You can’t even answer a basic line of questioning. Shows how much you really believe your bs…but yeah, continue to take issue with my use of the word “weightlifter” to describe someone who lifts weights you imbecile.

>>18628249
>look i posted no face again

>>18628266
I understand now, are you Jungerposter or not? I still see no problem in training for strength, health and fitness though. As it is not as technical nor as unnatural as some sports. It's better than being a fat unhealthy retard who has health issues and no muscle.

>>18628289
>As it is not as technical nor as unnatural
You sure about that one?

>>18628285
>>18628288
Weak willed nerds get btfo again kek

Pic rel. Me

>>18628266
THe amount of seething is just ridiculous, I cannot understand why people are so mad about this.

>>18627271
>how would he have viewed bodybuilding or weight lifting culture?
Gay and vain.

>>18628293
Generic strength training yeah, it improves most aspects of your life that you may not (in the modern world) be able to achieve naturally. Am I to complain about not developing strength and fitness from hunting, or fighting against a local raiding warband, or am I to train anyway because of the benefits it brings?

Generic strength training is better than training just to get a higher jump over a bar or something, it only takes up 3-4 hours of your whole 7 day week.

>>18628307
See the replies to this
>>18628032
Lmao

>>18628268
No, as I said I can't fight, I'm a fucking idiot.
But try to go and randomly stab a professional fighter, let's see what happens.

>>18628315
>>18628293
Junger wrote the majority of his works relevant to our discussion around 80-100 years ago, much has changed since then but not much is objectively better when we talk about the problems he describes. I think there are far greater problems that many nations and peoples face, far greater problems than men being strong without true, natural environments to build strength in. I'd say some of our problems stem from sedentary and inactive lifestyles causing infertility and low testosterone.

>>18627817
Yes, I think the obsession with Mishima is telling, especially where there is a further leveling and loss of subtlety.
This position hits home precisely because holding onto a machined image of the body is so obviously nihilist and liberal it can only be upheld through 'cope'.

Not all that different from the feminists who have to go to he extremes of identity in order to preserve their movement. Rape culture for instance is a propaganda scheme which serves no other purpose than maximizing the organisation of feminism. It is the most extreme image of weakness.
In the same way, mgtow and representative fascism can only hold to the most extreme imagery of masculinity as a recruiting mechanism. Men are under attack and so we must use Hollywood tactics to defend against this weakness. An attempt at total mobilisation which can never compete with the smallest liberal organisations. Yet they will sell all ideals for 15 twitter likes.
It is the lowest type in the leveling process and herd instincts, and without doubt these are the same people spamming Nietzsche and Evola quotes.

>>18628333
I was memeing lol. I was making a joke about those funny knife self defense videos you can see on YouTube.

>>18628339
>An attempt at total mobilisation which can never compete with the smallest liberal organisations.
This does not make sense. Are you sure you know what Junger means by total mobilisation.

>>18628339
I'm interested in how (in the case of a machined body) it is nihilist and liberal, and the definitions you are using for each.

>>18628307
Because it is just a show.

>>18628266
Based.
Looks the all that high energy dried up.

>>18628315
There is no such thing as generic strength training. You are training reps for the movement of a barbell, or similar, same as an athlete trains reps for the movement of their body over a high jump. You have been led to believe that what you do is merely getting stronger in some universal sense but you are wrong.

>>18628339
>Yes, I think the obsession with Mishima is telling, especially where there is a further leveling and loss of subtlety.
But it’s interesting because of the misunderstanding. Mishima himself admitted that it was a case of nihilism and he would probably be largely in agreement with Jünger and his brother here if I had to guess although he’d probably defend it as something worth doing anyway in his specific case.

>>18628289
>are you Jungerposter or not?
Yes. In one of the recent threads someone asked about bap and masculinity, my post got good feedback. I will try to find it later and respond more fully as you or someone else asked some good questions.
Basically however I think lifting (seen as an ideology) is just a half measure (or more like a 1% measure). Masculinity is obviously very important today and under threat, so I'm definitely not against strength, only where that is an end in itself. There must be more than the materialist perspective.

If you are familiar with Jünger or Tocqueville's idea of race my thinking on masculinity is much the same, that a theological component raises it to the highest. Of course, it is nearly impossible to explain such things in a few hundred characters - twitter in this sense is a great leveling mechanism for both male and female identity.

One may think instead of the old idea that what matters to the soldier in war is that he fight well. Here any physiognomy could be sacrifficed, and ugliness could even be taken as a virtue - particularly in the case of nations in danger.
If one fights well it doesn't matter if he is ugly and fat or an Adonis. Although other positions in the state may have to be kept from him.

The real question here is what would be best for the people, nation, and families. And in this sense the warrior should not be preferenced over other figures or classes. Perhaps the adventurer or priest holds far more value in our time. And one should keep in mind that /justliftbro/ is only the lowest representation of the warrior spirit. Of course we cannot go against socieities which subscribe to MAD but one could at least study the shift in war theory and military organising.The

I also have no hostility towards anyone who /justlifts/ either. The nihilism of our age is so profound and the gravity of what we face seems so complete that even small victories could seem like a triumph. We just should not get lost in these minor details.

>>18627871
>True masculinity can only come from a higher sacrifice and purpose.
oh like those lifelong virgin monks

>>18628201
nerd cope

>>18628201
Some of them do achieve an aesthetic look, but that is very rare.

>>18628570
One can also look to the old rites of passage in which a boy would spend a year in the wilderness.
For those who exist outside the possibility of this you can still imagine how much would be learned beyond lifting plastic encasings.

>>18628358
Also interested.

>>18628593
Post face

>>18627271
>It's interesting how much overlap there is between the people reading his books and fitness culture online.
And entirely predictable somehow

>>18629412
people too stupid to understand evola end up getting into body building despite it being against evola's philosophy in the pursuit of COOL AESTHETICS!!!

>>18628435
How to train then? Running, pushups, situps until failure?

>>18629427
How was he against it?

Based thread.

>>18628571
exactly

>>18628435
Who cares really. Squat bench deadlift and some accessories to make sure you hit every muscle. I'd rather be strong than be a skinny nerd just even if the conditions to become aren't naturally occuring anymore.
You can extend that logic to almost every part of modern life. Considering how ghastly some aspects of modern life are, I think strength training is the least of our worries. Such an autistic thing to obsess over

>>18628740
I don't understand why you are focusing on one aspect, sport and training, of our modern world when almost every other aspect would be deemed grossly unnatural too. Almost nowhere in the world, save for the few remaining old tribes, do any of these rights of passages, tradition hunting or 'natural' developments of strength take place. There are so many greater problems to face in the modern world.

>>18629427
Posts like this just scream cope from those who take part in no physical activity whatsoever.

>>18628697
>>18628201
Kek. The day of reckoning for nerds. Litizens will be made to kneel before the fitlit ubermensch

>>18629503
All of those are gay. Disregard what the other anon says and just get a gym membership. Don't take roids and follow a strength program.

Or if you want to be authentic, go to the wilderness and larp as a hunter gatherer in the sacrifice for your people.

>>18628740
No one says working out is an entire replacement for what was previously masculine development. No one at all. Unsurprisingly you can still engage in activities other than lifting, and you do not have to engage with normie lifting culture either.

>>18628570
Thank you, yes I agree with you.

>Masculinity is obviously very important today and under threat, so I'm definitely not against strength, only where that is an end in itself. There must be more than the materialist perspective.

Many in this think that I was advocating for lifting as a complete and satisfactory replacement of the development of masculinity.
But if I'm honest, the most masculine men you find over the past 100 years or so have either been soldiers like Junger, or are engaged in sport and other activities which are imitations of pursuits that were once nessacary. But that is entirely my point, there can be no natural and authentic replication of old traditions, unless you want to hide out on the Russian steppes or something. So engaging in inauthentic replications of these old activities does no harm.

>>18628570
What is your definition of nihilism in this case?

>>18628042
You should see the state of most of the other conservatives on twitter then, you really have no idea. No idea at all.

>>18630623
Copeposting.

He said something about "phallic" masculinity.
Don't really know what or where so there.

>>18627981
That is embarrassing.

>>18630973
>When you have the physique of a prison camp inmate
The men Junger talks about are not weak, you are.

>>18630634
>No one says working out
>>18627880
>>18627910
>>18627971

>>18629503
I can’t tell you how to train. I’m in agreement with Jünger poster.

>>18630605
And yet here you are, obsessing over it.

>>18630667
>So engaging in inauthentic replications of these old activities does no harm.
That’s not the debate. The debate is over how the bros say you “have to lift”. You literally do not have to lift. They think it’s some sort of general masculinity increaser and it’s simply not. They act like it’s some sort of general strength training, not technical (mechanical) movement training and it’s simply not.

>>18631071
What? Read the whole sentence you ESL

>>18631126
>not technical (mechanical) movement training and it’s simply not.
Lmao, you type like you hardly understand the people you're reading from.
What do you do then as an alternative?

>fag
Doesn't BAP say that women are ugly and men should worship male bodies? Sounds pretty fucking gay.

>>18631115
He literally said in a post in this thread he does not think training for strength is a bad thing considering the challenges of our age. But that it should not be seen as a direct replacement for masculine virtues.

>>18631132
No

>>18631126
I guarantee you lead a sedentary lifestyle.

>>18631134
Yeah. And I literally just said in a post that it’s besides the point.

>>18631130
Why do I need to propose an alternative?

>>18631152
>I’m in agreement with Jünger poster.

>>18628740
>spend a year in the wilderness.
How many have done this?

>>18631161
Hahahahahahahaahahahahahahaha

>>18631143
He does.

>>18631172
I bet this faggot has
>18631161

>>18631175
Right. I’m in agreement with him regarding the answer to the OP and specifically regarding Junger’s take on the matter. I’m also in agreement that you can lift weights if you want to. I’m simply pointing out that’s not what’s really being debated here and besides, there’s a difference between saying “it’s fine” and “you have to”. Jünger poster says the former only. The gym bros say the latter only. The latter is simply wrong.

>>18631149
I’m not an enormous faggot so I’m not going to post my sport background to measure dicks on 4channel’s literature board in a thread about a 20th century occultist but I’m replying now to point out how triggered my simple reply has made the gym bros and how when forced to face what is ultimately true their only response to say I’m probably fat or weak or something. There’s literally nothing of substance there. All of it stops at the vain and shallow worship of pseudo-masculinity for its own sake.

>>18631190
I mean to say this to >>18631168

>22 posters
Kek why the fuck /fit/ is desperate for validation from /lit/? People in old times were fit because they were soldiers, farmers etc. Imagine some retarded 9-5 office wagie lifting weights to achieve muh gayreek god body that he has seen through some shopped statue made up by some faggy artist long ago. This shit is really pathetic and disgustingly materialistic. The only quest which matters is inner quest. Beyond hiking, rock climbing, swimming, cycling etc. It's just useless hustle to meet some imaginary Hollywood status of fit body.

>>18628570
>someone asked about bap and masculinity
>>/lit/thread/S17864444#p17884871

>>18631203
>>18631161
Samefag. You have no alternative and lead a sedentary lifestyle.

>>18631240
You don’t even know what samefagging is you illiterate moron.

>>18631213
>The only quest which matters is inner quest.
And that can be achieved by building strength. No one says you have to be a faggot and take it up the arse, just to develop your strength to an acceptable level.

>Beyond hiking, rock climbing, swimming, cycling etc.
What does this mean? Are you the ESL poster

>>18627271
It keeps my back pain away.

>>18631251
Don't get yourself too worked up, you might accidentally raise your heart rate in a non traditional and inauthentic manor

If you want to achieve health and fitness without being a gayreek faggot then read this. It gives better suggestions than most in this thread do.

>>18631262
Do you have anything worth saying that’s not “nooo you must be fat and sedentary so you just don’t understand” or not? It is getting really pathetic.

>>18631269
Hahahaha it must be true

>>18627271
He'd find it a dignified effort as long as it doesn't become narcissism or faggotry.

>>18631343
He didn’t. He has a whole chapter about this in his books. This thread is retarded.

>>18631343

>narcissism or faggotry
i.e. bodybuilding

>>18627271
Must have been terrible to grow up without a father.

>>18631393
>Bodybuilding or weight lifting culture
Illiterate fatty detected

>>18628279
>gay suicide
alternative name for Death in June

>>18631383
Which one

>>18631450
It’s in either Revolt Against the Modern World or Ride the Tiger. I don’t remember which.

>>18631126
some '''weightlifter'' fucked your crush didn't he?

>>18631477
He is a nerd. If he was in school his lunch money would be taken every day.

> itt: triggered gym bros, can’t read, samefag
What a complete and unmitigated disaster

If you like lifting just do it, it makes you strong and keeps your body healthy. If you don't like it, find another way to keep your body functioning well. It's nice to keep your muscles in reasonable shape by whatever means, and it doesn't require all that much dedication. Evola's specific opinion on weightlifting is not really all that important, not to mention he was against that type of cult following anyway.

>>18627271
Modern lifting and bodybuilding culture is honestly pretty stupid. This isn't cope-- I've browsed /fit/ for like 6 fucking years and surpassed the 1/2/3/4 benchmark years ago, and did all that macros + CICO shit too.

Lifting should not require a "culture", and modern bodybuilding is a joke compared to what it was in the early 1900's or even the 60's and 70's. There was once a time in my life where I made lifting weights a "personality", and that was idiotic. You should never call yourself an "x-er" based on your hobbies and recreations. You should never be a lift-er, or a game-er, or a tiktok-er. The only time you should add that "-er" at the end of your sentence is to clarify your vocation. Farm-er, write-er, sold-ier; those all matter. No one gives a fuck if you lift weights, and no one gives a fuck about you if that's all you have to bring to the conversation. Being sound of body is a basic requirement, stop being elitist about it.

Just workout in silence, admire your progress here and there, and don't be vain or clingy about it. Also, /fit/ is meme'ing when they say you don't need cardio or functional strength. Run for endurance and throw in some muscle-ups, tire flips, and resistance band boxing to work out the entire body, including those small, underused muscles that the big four lifts don't really target.

One last thing. Eat lots of raw onions and drink raw onion juice. It's a natural testosterone booster and niche bodybuilders have been doing it for years and it's only just now become common knowledge, so if you need to boost your test levels naturally without the use of steroids, include raw onion juice in your diet.

>If you can't run 10kms in 45 mins you are not an athelete

>>18631222
Very nice.

>>18631515
Based. Best post in this thread

>>18631554
Based. I agree

>>18631515
Cringe. Most mediocre post in this thread

>>18628164
Post face.

>>18632036
(You)

>>18630623
You seem quite dishonest and manipulative. You're spamming the thread while accusing others of being nerds, and contradicting yourself immediately. You clearly see lifting in a religious sense, but it 's clear it does little for you.

But in any case, here is a post from the seethe war thread one of you started
>Just join a boxing gym, lose some weight eat right and get a girlfriend. These silly fantasies are a product of your lack of doing anything.
There are a large number of people in your movement who believe that lifting can make up for the loss of honour, aristocratic values, and blood lust. Do you have any idea what political position that might relate to?

One could go further and do a Chomsky analysis of the threads and responses that are posted on lit. It would become clear - and already should be to anyone with a little bit of common sense - that well over 95% of the masculinist posting is 'just lift bro'. The other 5% is mostly crude conservative and decadent larping about war, which hardly any of you seem to even try to understand. Because intellectual thought is gay or something.

If any of you really cared about masculinity and its decline you would be posting about hunting, or the aesthetics of war instead of your gay porn collection (which is probably pushed by glowniggers).
This sort of thinking could relate to the old Roman Virtues (yeah I know, Prudentia and Clementia are some fag shit and you would rather bully me) and a real aesthetic position would do so much more to help men than being a clown for wall street businesses and ethots.

There is a metaphysical or theological type of strength which is much more significant, not only in our time but history in general. Tocqueville, for example, had the strength and will to confront the rioters, revolutionaries, and cowards in office in a way that warrior types could not. He had a weak constitution, yet it is an important lesson that there can be other types of strength which can help men to the highest degree.
This is what is needed today, not iron decadence.

>>18632236
>You clearly see lifting in a religious sense, but it 's clear it does little for you.

Nah, I'm just messing around to get a reaction from him, I agree with
>>18631554 in that sense that it benefits your health but should not be made into your whole personality. As many others have said, it is no substitute. I see no issue with training for strength being supplementary to other activities. As he said, having a healthy and sound body is essential. No shit the consumerist 'fitness Industry' is a joke, full of roid users and ethots trying to sell whatever product is popular.

There are certainly those involved in the 'lifting industry' - as gay of a name as that is - that are certainly homosexual.

>If any of you really cared about masculinity and its decline you would be posting about hunting, or the aesthetics of war
I spend most of my time reading war memoirs, ancient history, Junger or memoirs of outdoorsmen.

>>Just join a boxing gym, lose some weight eat right and get a girlfriend. These silly fantasies are a product of your lack of doing anything.
What thread was that from?

>>18632236
>There are a large number of people in your movement who believe that lifting can make up for the loss of honour, aristocratic values, and blood lust. Do you have any idea what political position that might relate to
Junger was talking about this 100 years ago, not only has the Western world changed radically since then, it has got worse in almost every respect.

>This sort of thinking could relate to the old Roman Virtues
>There is a metaphysical or theological type of strength which is much more significant, not only in our time but history in general.
Isn't this what Evola touches on, if I'm being very vague

>>18632236
>If any of you really cared about masculinity and its decline you would be posting about hunting
Why hunting?

>>18632303
But it’s not just the consumerist fitness industry. You’re totally missing the point of what he’s telling you still. I think this may go nowhere.

>>18632328
Yes I know, but I was referring to this line specifically. I have read Jungers writings on the subject thoroughly.
>and a real aesthetic position would do so much more to help men than being a clown for wall street businesses and ethots.

>>18632236
While I agree that there are other metrics for masculinity beyond "just lift bro", a man DOES have to be physically fit and capable.

What's stopping you from being well read, physically fit, ethical, morally brave, trained to fight, and (you forgot the biggest one) capable of raising and providing for a good family? It's not like they're all mutually exclusive.

Being physically fit is a part of "raising and providing for a family", because how the fuck are you going to protect your family if you're weak? How can you stand up for what's right if you're too weak to physically champion it if necessary? How can you be a warrior if you can't keep up with the enemy?

Haven't you heard that one quote?
>"The society that separates scholars from its warriors will have it thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools."

>>18632236
I think we have exhausted all possible discussion on this topic, as I mostly agree with you and other posters in this thread and thoroughly understand yours and Jungers points. I just see it as important to maintain a certain level of strength and fitness. The trolling previously was a joke to stir up the gullible.

>>18632362
So am I to accept that everyone who goes to a gym is a warrior?

>>18627271
Anon, weightlifting is an olympic sport, bodybuilding is not a sport

>>18632380
You and I both know the answer to that, and I get the impression that was a loaded question. My question is, wait, what? Why are you asking me this? What's your angle? I don't get it, what's your point?

>>18632314
The world hasn't really changed that much. That's the whole point.

>>18632317
Hunting was one example, but a very important one as it can be seen as being a greater activity in terms of wealth and strength than even war.
The proof of this is in the earliest myths, and the law of the Golden Age. War in its most noble form is also derived heavily from hunting, and may only come about as a decline - where the predator and prey relation, or simply hunting grounds, have been lost.

One should also remember that there is no more warlike type of government than democracy (which obviously goes against the common conservative understanding).

>>18632425
What country are you typing from.

>>18632458
You've neither been hunting, nor been to war, have you?

Anyone who's actually done both can clearly tell you're trad-larping.

>>18632458
What is the ancient or natural equivalent of a drone strike being commanded from 1000s of miles away? Serious question.

>>18627271
ok im OP and for anyone wondering, there's a section in Ride the Tiger called "Dissolution of the Individual" which deals with my original question. As for all you lunkheads, go use your big strong muscles to go flip my burger lol

>>18632501
You're not OP, and you're not as clever as you think

>>18632501
>Evolian consuming a burger

>>18632507
I am OP and I'm not that clever, but I didn't realize that gymbros would get so assblasted by my thread.

>>18632521
You're OP, and you're not as clever as you think, and we're not as assblasted as you believe, and this isn't your thread

>>18632517
do you think he would have preferred the big mac or the quarter pounder? I think the differentiated man would prefer the quarter pounder with big mac sauce, as well as being an aristocrat of the shamrock shake

>>18632542
He would have chosen KFC

>>18632362
But that's exactly the problem. Look at the /fitlit/ sophia pasta, it's reducing philosophers not just to warriors but gym bros.

Again, the point is not that lifting is bad but that it is being elevated to a political ideology that will save the west through representation and symbols alone. It is a clear example of nihilism and the defeat of the imagination - which suggests that it only contributes to the decline.

One can also see the decline in sport itself. If you look at the other thread people were seriously defending the roided female gymnast look, and this coming from guys who are most likely reactionary 'misogynists'.
Only 30 years ago women had to have grace and poise in their sport, but now there is little more to it than being mediocre men. Sport is reduced to its technical aspects. Even in bodybuilding there is a severe decline, moving towards excess and grotesque proportions, yet an ascetic like approach to gluttony and medical supplements.

In skiing much of the skill has been taking out of the events, where one used to have to almost skate down the hills which required much more body control and subtle movements because one was living on a knife edge. This is similar in motorsports where all the danger has been taken away and it is little more than a marketing procession.

This living at the precipice of death within great contests was central to olympic games in the ancient era. Anyone who compares the two and tries to elevate technical sports to nobility has no idea of the intricacies involved. It is little more than sentimentality amidst the decline - the same mistake conservatives have made for hundreds of years.

>>18632368
>thoroughly understand yours and Jungers points
Clearly you do not

>>18632494
I pretty much live in the woods and have been involved with hunting most of my life. I don't really get all these blind personal attacks, why are you so insecure while proclaiming superior manhood?

The reference is to the Greek myths, which if you had ever read you would know how Athena learned war practices from Artemis. It's also something Jünger discusses, but you haven't read him either.
There are also hunting scholars (who are hunters) who make similar arguments.

>>18632496
I don't get the question.
But Zeus I guess.

>>18632351
So why do you disagree with what Jünger says of health and nihilism?

>>18632303
The Mishima war thread.

>>18632566
That's because we're seeing areas in sports where women are entering pursuits traditionally practiced by men. Bodybuilding, wrestling, and mma are all traditionally masculine sports, and women simply wanted to try it for themselves. It doesn't mean woman-oriented sports still don't exist, like ballet, horse jumping, figure skating, and gymnastics.

Lifting has ALWAYS been inundated with "that" type of culture. The 70's and 80's gym culture was even WORSE, with rampant steroid abuse and professional wrestling entering the scene. It's only just more noticeable now because gyms have become more accessible and mainstream then ever before. Back then only serious meatheads would ever buy a gym membership; nowadays everyone and their mom has a gym membership.

Also, the olympics aren't exactly the best metric for measuring authenticity. In fact, I think a lot of sports DIE once they enter the olympic world. Wrestling? Stupid oly rules. Taekwondo? Used to be a genuine form of self defense, now neutered to the core. Fencing? No longer a gentleman's game, now it's simply just a game.

My point is, your gripes with lifting MAY have some merited points, but it's nothing like how you're portraying it. Dumb meatheads will be dumb meatheads, but there are PLENTY of other people who simply lift weights without turning it into a character trait. Meatheads are just a loud minority as they've always been-- they're just more visible now.

>>18627679
This guy
Honestly though it’s very difficult to remain pure with lifting (especially a body building routine). Pride, lust, narcissism are all nearly inevitable (from my experience). I also find it hard to justify eating in such abundance, both spiritually and ecologically.
Instead, to satisfy this desire of exertion by surrogate means, I attempt to maintain a more natural lifestyle: eating conservatively and fasting often, as well as focusing on a few simple exercises of which I pursue perfection through practice (pull-ups, burpees, leg raises). This combined with yoga and a few sports that I enjoy (boxing, swimming, and basketball) have sufficed my desires for now.
But if lifting satisfies you, that’s great. Just didn’t work out for me, long term that is.

>>18630675
>nihilism
The active destruction of values and defense against the essential.

>>18632604
I'm new here; JUST entered the thread like half an hour ago. It's just that the way you wrote practically SCREAMED "I'm a big fat nerdy virgin who's never seen the sun in a long, long time".

Sorry if I got it wrong

>>18632664
Thanks.

Completely unrelated but I wonder what Junger would make of modern day Chechnya.

>>18632574
>>18632623
Ok then. I understand but I disagree. Happy?

>>18632566
>In skiing much of the skill has been taking out of the events, where one used to have to almost skate down the hills which required much more body control and subtle movements because one was living on a knife edge. This is similar in motorsports where all the danger has been taken away and it is little more than a marketing procession
This is a very interesting point, I have often thought the same when seeing videos of F1 races. Very boring and very corporate

>>18632458
I’ve been hunting my whole life and I’m not seeing it. I think, yeah, it’s probably closer to war than just about any other “sport” or activity but even there it’s subsumed into mechanistic functions. Nowadays you’ll see guys with rifles riding ATVs around chain smoking cigarettes in some places, tons of gear and tech. You’ll also find guys training for western hunts with specificity as if they were sport athletes. I fail to see how it escapes this whole critique. That’s not even considering how it’s also subject to this obnoxious consumer culture and Joe Rogan cultists who, just like the gym bros, will gladly preach to you the benefits of hunting as if you just HAVE to hunt.

>>18632633
Terrible thread full of bait

>>18632604
Where did he write about hunting?

>>18632700
A very good memoir you may like is Dick Proenneke's 'alone in the wilderness'. He lived alone for a few decades in the Alaskan wilderness, only hunting to eat. He shared the same feelings as you do about seasonal hunters.
He had supplies dropped in by plane every so often but apart from that he lived almost completely alone. Funnily enough, he was also extremely fit and strong.

>>18630667
Jünger wasn't a traditionalist, and my position is probably quite similar. I have no interest in replicating values or larping a tradition, the point is rather to arm and prepare oneself for what is present and the fight to come.
I think anyone who does this is more masculine than someone who merely replicates the symbols of past men. It is a much more difficult task.

In a sense this relation is like the national iconography, or constellations which contain in them the myths. Physical attributes which relate to a strong character are much more significant than those which are a mere formalism, a technical representation. This is similar to the decline in clothing and uniforms, not only is current fashion emasculating but the very quality of clothing inhibits any sort of masculine activity. At two poles we exist within the utmost danger and yet our clothing is entirely fragile and disposable. There is a constant shedding of the skin.
The bodybuilder is much closer to this paradox of security and disposability than most would ever admit.

>>18632714
It’s not just seasonal hunters anymore though. My experience with even remote western hunters in the US is similar to that of industrial farmers. They’ll happily preach about the natural merits of hunting/farming and how it “gets into your blood” while using commercial bait or chemical fertilizers. I’m sorry to be a cynic here but I’m being honest.

>>18632733
Fair enough mate. I only recommended the book as I thought you would like it, it was written in the 60s. I'm not the person you originally replied to about hunting btw.

>>18632729
Very interesting, do you know where I can read more on this specific topic? Are you the man with the Junger blog?

>>18632729
Although I have to say this seems to conflict with what many people have said in this thread, which was the cause of my confusion initially. Larpers I suppose

>>18632458
>>18632700
Dude, what the fuck? Aesthetics? War? What the fuck are you guys talking about? I just hunt to eat shit, because I'm hungry. I don't give a fuck about like, the idiosyncrasies of masculine traditions or whatever the fuck you guys are talking about. I drive in my 4-wheeler because I'm tired of walking 5 miles into the woods and 5 miles out. I use corn bait because I'm tired of sitting around in a blind for hours because there's no animals in sight. I use trail cams because I'm tired of tracking and guesstimating how many potential targets are in my area. Literally who gives a fuck? I just wanna eat.

You guys are turning hunting into an ultimate masculine fetish when it's just something we DO.

>>18632821
The American bugman is riled

>>18632827
Keep larping, bro. That would be like if I went to a strip club and began MARVELLING at the people next to me about how the strip club is the ULTIMATE human experience combined into a SINGLE ROOM where men and women COMPETE for prime SEXUAL RIGHTS, and where gender traditions are both SUBVERTED and AVERTED in a building that's ALWAYS MIDNIGHT.

Yeah, shut the fuck up, it's a strip club, no one cares.

>>18628358
There probably isn't much more to say on it than Jünger and a few others have already suggested. Their arguments are close to perfect.
Aside from exploring the ideas to work through the difficulty the point is much like military drilling, which Jünger suggests in The Worker, or the ancient idea of antiphony which was used in both drama and dialogue, or even all aspects of life. This was most famously employed by Socrates and is crucial in returning ideas to simplicity and active decision.

There is another definition of nihilism than the decline or loss of values, and Jünger hints at it, although I don't know that it is ever fully explored, or perhaps not brought to a conclusion. Before him, Hölderlin explored it.
The basic idea is that nihilism is an essential part of theological becoming, necessary in the ease through which one undergoes metamophosis. Paradoxically one may say that man is closest to the divine laws where he is farthest from the gods - although this cannot be taken as a concrete law, there is great danger here because theomorphosis walks a line close to atheism and secularization.
What is so devastating in our age is that nihilism can never be completed, it never returns from becoming to being. Both past and future are severed, like the gordian knot which never seems to end in its unfurling, and nothing, whether good or evil, comes to fruition. This is something far more devastating than the decline of values or the loss of meaning, and instead may even be theological in itself - theological to something higher than gods or anything immortal. Which is why even Christianity or Existentialism cannot have any answers, they are in effect secularizing and historicizing relations to nihilism, themselves pulled into jts anticonstitutional power.

>>18632845
Dude, what the fuck? Aesthetics? War? What the fuck are you guys talking about? I just hunt to eat shit, because I'm hungry. I don't give a fuck about like, the idiosyncrasies of masculine traditions or whatever the fuck you guys are talking about. I drive in my 4-wheeler because I'm tired of walking 5 miles into the woods and 5 miles out. I use corn bait because I'm tired of sitting around in a blind for hours because there's no animals in sight. I use trail cams because I'm tired of tracking and guesstimating how many potential targets are in my area. Literally who gives a fuck? I just wanna eat.

>>18632501
Kek

>>18632526
You have literally proved his point

So how then, if not going to the gym or participating in sport, to stay in shape take part in some something resembling this process? Nobody seems to have a good answer.

>>18632872
I was just trying to subvert his post to sound clever. I actually have zero stake in this conversation and am minimally emotionally invested in whatever seems to be going on here.

>>18632848
Liberalism was probably the wrong word to use. Basically I mean secularization, of which liberalism is only one part. Important here is Schmitt's thinking that the secular is not only profanation but a specific placing of profane territory which situates it in a neutralising position against the sacred. To some degree this is itswlf a sacralization of the profane.
I think he says something like 'profanation is the sacralization of the mundane.' I will try to find the quote.

So here, the specific relation of technical sport is nihilist because of its reconstitution of neutral and profane territory. It holds up the interim period much in the same way that Atlas bears the spheres on his shoulders.

This is titanic character in punishment. And by contrast someone like Milo of Croton held a character like Antaeus, monstrous and gigantic, wrestling anyone and anything in his path, drinking like a Centaur, and eating as if in permanent festive celebration. At the same time his impossible strength was tempered by delicate care and control, as the story of wrestling while holding a pomegranate in one hand attests.

>>18632821
>>18632861

>>18632944
I don't hunt for sport. It's stag, boar, or goat for me (and also sometimes fowl if there's nothing else going on).

>>18632902

>>18632845
>everything is nihilist but me
kek. treat the world as a toilet and then complain when your country gets flushed.

>>18627330
Yeah, no shit, he would dislike bodybuilding because it’s navel-gazing and isn’t conducive to anything more productive, being in shape is important, homoerotic posing competitions

>>18632983
I don't give a fuck what happens to other people. I just focus on myself and the people I love.

>>18632781
You mean masculinity and iconography? The inner and metaphysical strength of man? These are just things I've been thinking about and hope to write on. There are some similarities in Jünger's work like "Across the Line", Schmitt's work, and various old Greek and Roman writings.
I was thinking along the lines of Herder's physiognomy essay as well, which I made a thread about a while back.

If you clarify what exactly you are looking for I may be able to better suggest something.
Yes, I have a few different blogs.

>>18632888
The point isn't about right or wrong. If you need to do something extra to stay in shape go for it, but it would be better if you were getting in shape from what you do naturally.

>>18633052
Could you please link your blogs?

>Physical attributes which relate to a strong character are much more significant than those which are a mere formalism, a technical representation. This is similar to the decline in clothing and uniforms, not only is current fashion emasculating but the very quality of clothing inhibits any sort of masculine activity. At two poles we exist within the utmost danger and yet our clothing is entirely fragile and disposable. There is a constant shedding of the skin.
This section specifically

>>18633263
Of course thag would be better but it’s totally impractical and actually an unreasonable expectation for almost anyone.

>>18632888
Are there not some sports better than others?

>>18632888
There's nothing that makes lazy chumps seethe more than the idea of another man lifting heavy objects up and down.

>>18634176
Do you really think anyone seethes about this?

>>18632921
Interesting.

>>18627735
Russian bodybuilding is huge, but Germany is really nothing special

>>18627433
im not going to a gym with blaring nigger music, screaming roidmonkey mutts, scantily dressed whores taking pictures of their cameltoe for an hour every day, let alone PAYING to do it. Running, pull ups, and some occasional recreational boxing is enough for me until I'm able to afford a home gym, if ever.

>>18635749
Pullups, dips, pushups, one leg squats, situps, all based things to do every day if you can get enough protein and calories. Running is also great, both distance and sprinting , it all makes you feel great and clears your head

>>18627555
>“THE most amazing thing in your life, the most in contrast with ours, is its sport. By this I do not mean simply your fondness for physical exercise, your physical exuberance, but the psychological and social institutionalization of sport, its organization, its predominant rôle as the outlet and expression of your spiritual energies.” (p. 38)

>“Your spirit is sport: particularly your young men, who are not yet absorbed in the struggle for existence, and whose emotions are therefore for the largest part free, must find in sport, in games, in contests, the most satisfactory expression of their instincts.” (p. 40)

>“The contention of the majority of your educators, that the moral instinct is trained on the football and baseball field, in boxing, rowing, wrestling and other contests, is a true one, is truer, perhaps, than most of them realize. Your ideal morality is a sporting morality. The intense discipline of the game, the spirit of fair play, the qualities of endurance, of good humor, of conventionalized seriousness in effort, of loyalty, of struggle without malice or bitterness, of readiness to forget like a sport – all these are brought out in their sheerest and cleanest starkness in well-organized and closely regulated college sports. And on the experiences and lessons which these sports imply your entire spiritual life is inevitably founded.” (p. 42)

>“Sport is for you a serious spiritual matter. It is the proper symbolization, the perfect ritual, wherein your spiritual forces, finding expression, also find exercise and sustenance.” (p. 43)

>>18632888
Things are never so simple with Jünger. For example, one of his main attacks on modern character w as focused on the museums, yet he took great interest in the sciences and was an entomologist. What matters here is the subtle differences which lead to the inner light, hidden forces, and the essential - what lies behind.

It can be helpful to remove the human qualities, the personal experiences and emotions, when trying to understand things. One can have too much stake in what is false and leading towards disaster, and where this is the case it will be defended all the more, just as one caught in a lie.

Standing apart from the problem we can instead look to the internet as a means to the perfection of knowledge. Particularly in its early conception there was something of a totalising encyclopaedia written into the form, with all forms of thought and scholarship linking to each other - a living taxonomy of knowledge. This is not unlike artificial intelligence in chess and go, mathematical perfection of the moves.

And the great danger is much like the effects of mathematical and forced rationalism in chess, the strength of the game is written out of it - the contest and exploratory nature is exhumed and becomes mere process. At first one is only further removed from his individual focus, the contest, and expands his optics to see, like the machine, only from the end. He may become equal to this perfection, but with this the free state, and the very character of the game in itself is lost. The game must move elsewhere, become something else, if only to achieve freedom where it has become impossible elsewhere.

Poe discussed this same character in relation to man, in the criminal. He represents something other than the Socratic subject. The technical and penetrating mind can create dominion, even in the divine sense, perhaps more than any other type. As with Archimedes, there is a particular strength which the poet alone could perhaps see, from great distance, but never have the aptitude or physical control to complete; as one who exists above and beneath the battlefield rather than on both sides of it. Hephaestus, with the Shield of Achilles, created something much greater than the beautiful, and transcended it with and against the ugly. The elements are formed in it, and its strength beyond mere iconography or even artwork. Tragedy and comedy are beneath it, much like the formalising aspects of religion are a weakening, or an attempt at reconstituting dominion.

>>18636020
More simply, the perfected knowledge of the internet is nothing like that of the Socratic dialogue; lost and drunken conversations; spontaneous folk songs heard distantly during a forest walk; firsthand accounts imparted from the memory of a dying elder, as great as any poetic form; or the innocence of childhood questioning and experience. We no longer have these things, but for the few they exist with greater force and appreciation than ever, and in this there is the possibility of return.

This too is perhaps the intent of 'just lifting'. It is a beginning where nothing else seems possible, with a vision of the return to virtue and meaning if we are dedicated enough, resilient enough, willed enough by the willless force which must eventually become something if there is simply enough pain. But one has to be careful to not misread the sentiment as finality, for these characteristics are also the very traits of the modern and secularizing man who sees himself as beyond death and fate. The nihilism of health is first and foremost a levelling process, the creation of a species that may endure everything, become eternal in the interim period where it was lost to all other ages.
The aesthetic excess of the bodybuilder is that impossible cruelty of the Leviathan rising out of the sea and having to exist on land. The final warrior foregoes all armour because the chinks in it will inevitably remain hidden, unknown to us. Better to be naked and recognise the impossibility of death.
Against Achilles one must embrace death with the entirety of his heart and mind. Where the soul is lost vice must become its own heroism.

One may also see in this the democratic war character: one who sees combat in all things so as to defeat it. Much like the beauty which threatens to overwhelm us, and in matching it we must contest with the whole of time. The agon of the hidden hordes, traitors, and slaves against kings is that they force him to see farther, to deepen dominion where they themselves threaten to bear the weight of the crown. "Regnabo; regno; regnavi; sum sine regno." This too is in the beheadings,a demand that the adornments no longer impart the laws.

Such immaterial excess will seem extreme to most, and yet these same people otherwise insist, perhaps only reactively, that such depths are there, or at least waiting to be found.

>>18633753
In that there is some relation of my thoughts on bushcraft to the philosophy of technology. kochanski says some interesting things about clothing and technology, and the procession-like quality of hiking trails. Although these comments are sparse. And the thinking is fairly similar to what Herder did in his essay on physiognomy, what do the much more subtle attributes we see in mien and countenance say about a man rather than the bare physical traits? And what can such subtleties say of a race and culture?
In The Worker Jünger says some interesting things about uniforms, the clothing and appearance of the worker, and the introduction of the mask as a species attribute.

My blogs are
Translations
https://jungertranslationproject.wordpress.com

Writings more focused on myth and religion, or more esoteric short essays and notes
https://mandalietmandaliet.blogspot.com

Notes on The Worker
https://derarbeiternotes.blogspot.com

Forum for notes, research, translation and discussion
https://derschattigewald.org/litforum/

>>18636080
The Herder thread, although pretty much the whole essay is quote worthy.
>>/lit/thread/S18147294

>>18633002
Treat your country and community like a toilet but don't be surprised when your family ends up in the shit

>>18635749
You've never been to a gym

>>18627787
10% body fat is chiseled you dyel retard

>>18636555
Cringe. Go back

>>18627271
Reminder Evola got tricked into getting buttfucked and rationalized it as an enlightening experience. Occultists are so credulous that it's pathetic.

>>18636555
Anything less than 12% is dyet retard

>>18627271
>how would he have viewed bodybuilding or weight lifting culture? Would he have seen a higher value possible within it?
Here's a response from someone who's actually read Evola, for once.
Evola approves of everything that builds discipline and exacts demands from the individual, especially if it is freely chosen. So long as the gymbro conceives of his task as a form of ascesis, his work is positive - Evola would only disapprove of bodybuilding inspired by vanity.

>>18636631
>>18636648
post body

I think he would say that bodybuilding is a vain and nihilistic pursuit as would be other weight lifting sports while weight training as pure exercise would have it’s place as a therapeutic method to deal with modern life and nothing more. Anyone who thinks he’d be remotely favorable on the thing or that he would even feel it important enough to comment on has either not read him or read him but missed the point entirely. It’s actually a bit of a ridiculous question since the obvious answer would be that he would find totally inessential.

>>18635770
This. I dislike the gyms (especially the music), but I've been doing exercises at home for a few weeks and I'm really enjoying it.

Awful thread. Anyways, he would have seen "bodybuilding" has materialistic (I think) but weight lifting would have been fine and even encouraged since Traditional man was extremely physhically and mentally fit.
Pic somewhat related.

>>18637197
You first

>>18627271
do you need a background in philosophy to read Evola?

>>18637340
It depends on which books you read. An all-around intellectual education will help with Ride the Tiger, for example, since he covers many aspects of modern life. If you are reading The Doctrine of Awakening, on the other hand, you will not need any knowledge of philosophy.

>>18627871
Based.

>>18637140
So Evola is a waste of time.

>>18637433
Why?

>>18631554
>surpassed the 1/2/3/4 benchmark years ago
What is the 1/23/4 benchmark?

>>18627817
Does Mishima provide an answer?

>>18632648
Women are responsible for technology?

>>18632696
I agree. Does anyone write about this?

>>18632944
Look don't get me wrong I agree trophy hunters are absolute niggers who should be shot themselves but hunting with rifles is already far, far removed from traditional masculine aesthetics and ways of life. To the average onions it may seem masculine but even without all the modern hunting shortcuts a firearm requires far less physical strength/exertion and technique than traditional forms of hunting, whether it be with a spear, a bow + arrow, or even a fucking boomerang. I don't see how riding an ATV around your hunting grounds is any worse than using a rifle chambered in 7.62 when you just want to kill the wild hogs fucking up the dirt bike trails on your land. I think the real issue is some outdoor activities and hunting techniques do not fit into the schema of a masculine woodsman understood by Suburbanites who larp as country. On a side note if you choose to respond I am curious about how trapping fits into your view of hunting and masculinity?

>>18637559
You’ve clearly never hunted even with a rifle a day in your life so just stop while you’re ahead.

>>18637508
Well, no. As far as I can tell, he only sees it as a positive thing, at least in the case of bodybuilding, in light of the nihilism and despite the fact it’s inherently nihilistic. But I think there’s a real question that probably gets lost in translation somewhere as to whether the sort of bodybuilding that Yukio Mishima was fond of can be at all said to be like that which you find being done in modern gyms. I don’t know. I just thought it’s interesting because if you read his books, you find a certain revelry in the body and he often speaks of the beauty bestowed on men who are doing or have done some sort of manual labor or else he speaks of it in beautiful terms. So I do wonder if there’s something there which is actually at odds with his affinity for bodybuilding via the weights. He at least did confirm that it was all nihilistic at one point.

>>18632711
Subtile Jagden and An der Zeitmauer

>>18637476
1 plate overhead press, 2 plate bench press, 3 plate squat, and 4 plate deadlift personal record. It’s commonly used as a benchmark among people lift weights as the point where you graduate in strength terms from a novice to a stronger athlete but it’s funny because it actually shows just how correct Ernst and Fredrich Jünger are in that post above. The idea is that it’s a general measure for general purpose strength and yet it’s a benchmark of figures assigned to very specific movements, mechanical movements. Many weight lifters would have you believe that a 4 plate deadlift is an indicator of general purpose strength and is not movement specific, but that obviously is not true or else this benchmark would be nonsensical.

>>18637820
Is it in English?

>>18637822
Thank you for the response. That is depressing. I workout so I can protect my family if I needed to, all other exercise is good for the brain. Cheers mate.

>>18637831
Well, it need not be depressing. Worst case scenario is that is, in fact, nihilistic and in that case, you are free to do as you please. But that aside, if you find some sort of value in weight training, you should do it.

>>18633753
Another example here is the impervious relation to nature. There is the old decadent clothing of the renaissance or late monarchism, a relation to nature which may be seen as "tying even the devil to a pillow." And the rough character of the voyageurs and early expeditionists, the very design and fabric of the clothing is so that one exists within the roughness and brutality of the forest - much like an animal hide, not getting cut up by brambles and tree breaks. And where the wool allows one to sit amidst the sparks of a fire the technical clothing of mountain climbing and lightweight hiking simply melts away. With this one can only approach th forest from a distance. One is impervious but removed, which perhaps explains the popularity of mountain climbing, where technical clothing grounds one to walls and the heights rather than the earth. Some closeness is retained.

The degradation of hiking and forestry boots is also telling in this, as the harsh chemicals involved in making the best leather are outlawed, while the cattle breeds most suited to martial leather have mostly disappeared.

>>18637872
And in terms o f military uniforms and armour, one sees the significance of something so simple as helmet design - the first version of the WWI helmet Jünger thought was the best. One can see total mobilisation in the entirely utilitarian design of the british helmets, which look like a sheet metal bowl with untrimmed edges. Such designs could even lead to antiwar sentiment, as the soldier appears as a peasant who simply wandered into the battlefields. He had no place dying as he did.

This is apart from the ancient Hellenic armours, which could be said to be in keeping with the Myth of Ages. "Bronze is the mirror of the form," and with such armour one lived at the precipice of heroism, protected from the ugly death of the flesh yet providing just enough protection that one could still succumb to the blows of a superior fighter - or a fateful strike. With the later defenses and iron armours - steel binds the individual and the mass to a much greater extent than the fasces - the soldier became impervious to to all strikes of man. This was the age of the mercenary soldier, and in Anghiari there were already images of the end of cavalry the centauric nobility of man giving way to atomic battles and the final weaponry.

Practical concerns should not be entirely avoided either, as we cannot simply return to martial order and uniforms. Nonetheless, there is an important lesson in that the aesthetic relation could help the average man much more than the aristocratic philistinism of bodybuilding, which only acts as a subterfuge against man. Even those with the best genes are threatened with the quality of female life, of being of use in only the prime years. This is where biology meets marxism.

>>18637954
In a great uniform or armour the average and ugly man are elevated to a degree much greater than anything possible through the body alone. And this higlights an interesting difference, a noble or aristocratic type of equality, whereas the false nobility and values of bodybuilding only lead back to the private man - a representational type of hierarchy only suited to promoting criticism, chance, and the forming of the democratic species. In lifting there is a unity with the pantheism of material, of taking stock of the earth forces so as to survive in its place.

The question is then what aesthetics would help both the highest and the common man.

>>18637822
I think this can also clarify the difference with something like strongman competitions or highland games. The timber of the caber toss is not so easily quantified, or set within strict limits. One does not only have to be strong, but has to have a keen sense of balance and timing. The extent of the contest and relation to warfare is also greater.
And in the ancient world lifting a boulder or tearing apart a tree stump is to a degree immeasurable. Weight alone cannot be applied to the gravity of a boulder and tje forces required to balance and overcome what is being lifted out of the earth.
The sentiment attached to the deadlift, that it is like pulling the earth up to the heavens, or grounding one's legs into it like roots, contains traces of this. And in the same way the exercise machines are a further weakening. One has to push 1000 pounds to get the equivalent of a 100 pound stump still attached to the roots.

This is also tied to measurement systems, as with the foot or metre against something like the cubit. Tying measurement to the body itself, rather than the mind and body to the machine, is necessary for a higher technology. A greater weapon is made where the measurement is custom fit to the arm length of a man. Again suggesting a greater sense of individuality in the old 'faceless' martial regimes compared to the bourgeois world. (Which is also something Evola misses where he blames individualism as the problem, when it too is really a providential law and shift.)

This is why something like the gladius remains beautiful to us, and the harpe perhaps monstrous. The duality, or even trifold or fourfold, nature of technology is what is lost to us. It is not really that technology in itself is a problem.

>>18638063
It's also interesting that mma moved towards these 'organic' and ancient methods of training, so they are certainly not lesser in terms of practicality or efficiency. Which again suggests that the problem of technical matters resides elsewhere.

>>18638073
>It's also interesting that mma moved towards these 'organic' and ancient methods of training
It has?

>>18632501
You made me look because I didn't remember anything like this, he doesn't really single out bodybuilding any more than any kind of recreational physical activity.
And basically all he says is that chasing the pump and endorphin release is fine but not transcendental in any way.
That said, as with any other activity, trying to reach your limits through an arduous training regiment can match the mindset an integrated man (not sure how that was translated in English?) would have had in a traditional society. It fundamentally doesn't matter if it's hiking mountains or lifting heavy weights, a a time of dissolution none of the things you do can be genuinely transcendental anyway, you can only approximate.
Anyway that's probably what he would have said, his books are just repeating the same stuff over and over about any topic so it's not that hard to figure out.

>>18638115
Yeah it was a major change that improved fighters' strength and cardio.

>>18637828
Unfortunately no. There is some interest in translating them, but they are fairly long and difficult to translate.

>>18631554
>Eat lots of raw onions and drink raw onion juice. It's a natural testosterone booster and niche bodybuilders have been doing it for years

I looked it up and it was only tested on rats. There's no evidence that it actually increases testerone on humans.

>>18637559
I was using hunting as an example rather than a model. Of course, if everyone who wanted to reclaim masculinity started hunting it would be a catastrophe far worse than the lineups on Everest or Selfie Redoubt.

It is the same here. Many hunters just drive back on the forestry roads hoping to catch a deer. Then again there are also those who still get lost and die "of exposure" or even wander into the woods for a final hunt. Men who die in their 80s or 90s in a blind.
There is much more leeway with hunting, and possible new routes to travel in terms of metaphysical or theological thinking. Sport is largely derivative of hunting or martial training, so it is inherent that something is lost where it is not directly tied to those ends.

Trapping could be interesting as well. I don't do it but know several who do, and there is great skill just in knowing where to set the traps. Some predator and prey relation remains there as well, although rather than tracking down or flushing out the animal - whose instinct is to flee and hide - you have to outmart them, even trick them as the fox does
The kill is the greatest aspect of the hunt, and this is lessened to an extent with trapping. They are caught during their normal activity without fear, or due to chance or interruption.
The high responsibility in killing is removed to a degree as well, which can result in the ugliness of mechanical traps or holds.

There is some technological aspects of it I do not like, and I wonder to what extent it developed historically due to times of scarcity and harsh conditions. In this sense there cannot be the same aspect of abundance we see in hunting.

>>18638459
On the other hand, one might say that perception is the highest attribute of hunting, and the trapper's skill so great that he does not even have to be present to see the animal for its kill.

At some point I will post about one of the very best books on hunting. Which is also related to Jünger's thought and useful to those who can't get his books on ly available in German.

>>18638437
i believe it's a meme

>>18637872
Very interesting once again

Why no faces?