/lit/ - Literature

>>18632730
Both. Nietzsche didn't get Hegel.

>>18632730
Nietzsche was the opposite of a nihilist.

>>18632730
No, but my asshole sure does leave to it.

Neetcha will guide you

Nihilism itself? No.

Rather, Ex Nihilo.

>N-I-E-T-Z-S-C-H-E
>"neecha"
>not "nee-ye-tzsi-ke"
European names are fucking retarded.

>>18632730
All irreligion leads to nihilism.

>>18632775
No.

All irreligion leads to secular religion.

>>18632730
Nihilism is true, so all paths do indeed lead there. The truth of philosophy is that everything is ultimately empty and unreal.

is nihilism dependent on antagonism??

>>18632854
If everything is ultimately objectively meaningless, then subjective value automatically supercedes objective value. Absurdism is the natural next step from nihilism

I'd like to know whether or not nihilism is capable of annihilating antagonism. If so, I imagine that would form non-antagonistic nihilism or dialectic nihilism.

>>18632889
>If everything is ultimately objectively meaningless, then subjective value automatically supercedes objective value.
FINALLY. FINALLY someone fucking gets it. I've been shouting this shit for YEARS and it always falls on deaf ears. FUCK. The treatment of ontological questions from an """"""""objective""""""""""""" point of view as if it's a goddamn natural science has always been exceptionally retarded, because we humans by fucking design are 100% incapable of being objective towards ourselves, it's like trying to catch the moon's reflection, of course it's all gonna look worthless and meaningless! You have to accept the inner subjectivity of our existence, once you get that in your head, finding meaning would actually be a TRIVIAL task, and grounds forming and embracing morality would literally create themselves. God I fucking hate scientific humanities.

>>18632889
isn't it exactly what that nietzsche retard was saying when he had his smarter moments?

>>18632730
Where do I start with Nietzsche? I've read most of thus spoke zarathustra. But really didn't get the second half.

>>18632931
Nietzsche couldn't speak for three paragraphs without contradicting himself somewhere, he was a post-christian romantic aesthete, and nothing more.

>>18632730
both

>>18632730
I am a virgin, a law student, and a fairly well known and liked member of my community. In a few weeks time, I will marry a sweet, kind, pretty girl who loves me. By all accounts, my life in the coming decades will be good, full of love, and a life many would kill to have. Still, I am struggling hard to convince myself not to an hero. Please recommend me /lit/ that helps one appreciate life, rather than seeing it as a painful and annoying burden. I have held my shit together for a long time, but I'm losing my grip bros.

>>18632768
American names like Chip and Tucker are so classy

>>18632955
Damn right.

>>18632938
That's the worst place to start. Read in this rough order
>beyond good and evil
>genealogy of morality
>gay science
>twilight of the idols
>zarathustra
>whatever else you want

>>18632753
so does he basically believe that the world should be a bunch of feuding tribes, or something?

>>18632954
Rather than looking for books, meditate on what exactly is making you hate your life? No one kills themselves for no reason. I'll hear you out. What ails you?

>>18632969
cheers bro!

well, no. you need to commit to rationality to arrive there

>>18632753
this sounds like communism. i'm glad i never read nietzsche and i'm glad that most of society is weak.

>>18632978
I don't even know what to tell you, anon. It is difficult for me to understand why anyone would even want to live, or why more people don't want to neck themselves. It seems to me that people should prefer death over living. In part, I find existence to be horrifying, and life evil. In part, I feel sick about the food I eat, the clothes I wear, and every comfort I enjoy, knowing that they are all products of the suffering of others. In part, I feel ashamed of myself and the little good I have done in the two and a half decades I have lived in this world, and in part I'm scared because there is nothing I can do that will make any worthwhile impact in the world. In part, I am afraid of the power that has brought this horrorshow into existence, and rather than postponing my potential meeting with this power, I want to get it over with as soon as possible. I have a multitude of psychological, ethical, and existential drives that all point toward suicide, and the only thing that has kept me from it so far is a vague hope that there might be an answer to all of this shit if I just wait a little longer. I guess it is too much to ask for a single book to help me process all these issues, but there is nowhere else I can think to turn.
>pic rel is from a thread i made a while back about a guy i sense might have been my kindred soul. he an heroed at age 26, just before graduating from an ivy league med school

>>18633035
Whos the dude? Why did he do it?

>>18632746
He went there:
>Once upon a time, in some out of the way corner of that universe which is dispersed into numberless twinkling solar systems, there was a star upon which clever beasts invented knowing. That was the most arrogant and mendacious minute of "world history," but nevertheless, it was only a minute. After nature had drawn a few breaths, the star cooled and congealed, and the clever beasts had to die. One might invent such a fable, and yet he still would not have adequately illustrated how miserable, how shadowy and transient, how aimless and arbitrary the human intellect looks within nature. There were eternities during which it did not exist. And when it is all over with the human intellect, nothing will have happened.
But correctly didn't get stuck and moved on.

>>18633145
If you were to ask his parents or siblings - two of whom were """psychiatrists""" - they would tell you he was simply depressed, and needed another daily handful of pills to enjoy the wonders of life.
>>>/lit/thread/S18137984

>>18633035
just b urself bro

>>18632753
based newfag filterer

>>18632753
Lel.
>>18632974
>>18633032
Oh you, collossal faggots

>>18632753
i love that

>>18633035
if theres an afterlife its supposed to be infinite, right? so you're not gaining any extra time there if you rush yourself like this. you wont likely ever have what you have in life when you die. so youre only losing life if you commit suicide. i'm not you and so i cant tell if your life is more suffering or more happiness but it looks like there is hope that it will get better. would you throw that out of the window?

dont bother yourself with how much suffering you create for others by allowing yourself needs and luxuries. there is simply no way to know if its greater or smaller or something else entirely than the satisfaction you get from it. its too big and too complex of an issue to worry about.

Will to Power, Decline of Cosmological Values (Nov. 1887 - Mar. 1888)

Nihilism as a psychological state will have to be reached, first, when we have sought a "meaning" in all events that is not there: so the seeker eventually becomes discouraged. Nihilism, then, is the recognition of the long waste of strength, the agony of the "in vain," insecurity, the lack of any opportunity to recover and to regain composure—being ashamed in front of oneself, as if one had deceived oneself all too long.—This meaning could have been: the "fulfillment" of some highest ethical canon in all events, the moral world order; or the growth of love and harmony in the intercourse of beings; or the gradual approximation of a state of universal happiness; or even the development toward a state of universal annihilation—any goal at least constitutes some meaning. What all these notions have in common is that something is to be achieved through the process—and now one realizes that becoming aims at nothing and achieves nothing.—Thus, disappointment regarding an alleged aim of becoming as a cause of nihilism: whether regarding a specific aim or, universalized, the realization that all previous hypotheses about aims that concern the whole "evolution" are inadequate (man no longer the collaborator, let alone the center, of becoming).

Nihilism as a psychological state is reached, secondly, when one has posited a totality, a systematization, indeed any organization in all events, and underneath all events, and a soul that longs to admire and revere has wallowed in the idea of some supreme form of domination and administration (—if the soul be that of a logician, complete consistency and real dialectic are quite sufficient to reconcile it to everything). Some sort of unity, some form of "monism": this faith suffices to give man a deep feeling of standing in the context of, and being dependent on, some whole that is infinitely superior to him, and he sees himself as a mode of the deity.—"The well-being of the universal demands the devotion of the individual!"—but behold, there is no such universal! At bottom, man has lost the faith in his own value when no infinitely valuable whole works through him; i.e., he conceived such a whole in order to be able to believe in his own value.

>>18633530
Nihilism as psychological state has yet a third and last form. Given these two insights, that becoming has no goal and that underneath all becoming there is no grand unity in which the individual could immerse himself completely as in an element of supreme value, an escape remains: to pass sentence on this whole world of becoming as a deception and to invent a world beyond it, a true world. But as soon as many finds out how that world is fabricated solely from psychological needs, and how he has absolutely no right to it, the last form of nihilism comes into being: it includes disbelief in any metaphysical world and forbids itself any belief in a true world. Having reached this standpoint, one grants the reality of becoming as the only reality, forbids oneself every kind of clandestine access to afterworlds and false divinities—but cannot endure this world though one does not want to deny it.

What has happened, at bottom? The feeling of valuelessness was reached with the realization that the overall character of existence may not be interpreted by means of the concept of "aim," the concept of "unity," or the concept of "truth." Existence has no goal or end; any comprehensive unity in the plurality of events is lacking: the character of existence is not "true," is false. One simply lacks any reason for convincing oneself that there is a true world. Briefly: the categories "aim," "unity," "being" which we used to project some value into the world—we pull out again; so the world looks valueless.

Suppose we realize how the world may no longer be interpreted in terms of these three categories, and that the world begins to become valueless for us after this insight: then we have to ask about the sources of our faith in these three categories. Let us try if it is not possible to give up our faith in them. Once we have devaluated these three categories, the demonstration that they cannot be applied to the universe is no longer any reason for devaluating the universe.

Conclusion: the faith in the categories of reason is the cause of nihilism. We have measured the value of the world according to categories that refer to a purely fictitious world.

Final conclusion: all the values by means of which we have tried so far to render the world estimable for ourselves and which then proved inapplicable and therefore devaluated the world—all these values are, psychologically considered, the results of certain perspectives of utility, designed to maintain and increase human constructs of domination—and they have been falsely projected into the essence of things. What we find here is still the hyperbolic naivete of man: positing himself as the meaning and measure of the value of things.

>>18632917
I'm glad I'm not the only one with this problem.

>>18632954
Get your hormone levels in check, seriously.

>>18633530
>>18633533
Am I reading this right?
>Man can't find meaning.
>Man invents stuff to find meaning, that doesn't work.
>Man thinks he can discover his own meaning, that doesn't work.
>Humans are inable to find meaning. That doesn't mean it's not there though.

>whatever that doesn't kill me can only make me stronger
yes very nihilstic

>>18632730
All paths are within nihilism, and nihilism within all paths.

>>18632889
I'm a bit confused here. Why should absurdism instead of existentialism be the next step from nihilism? Which factors lead to the dichotomy between the two in this particular case?

>>18632730
How does /lit/ beat anhedonia?

>>18635231
Not that guy, but existentialists consider, generally, that you create your own meaning. Absurdists claim that rebelling against meaninglessness is meaning enough. It's the difference between achievement of a destination (existentialism) or enjoying the journey (absurdism.)

>>18632730
Nietzche wasn't a nihilist you tiktok addled zoomer :^)
>“He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.”

>>18635299
I still havent found "the why". Is it even possible?

>>18633530
I'm a brainlet and I can't understand this writing. Every sentence is incomprehensible to me. I'll point out one.
>(—if the soul be that of a logician, complete consistency and real dialectic are quite sufficient to reconcile it to everything)
What does "it" refer to?

>>18635513
Lol nope. Why do you think Nietzche went insane?

>>18633035
(1)
Your kindred spirit is a neurotic jew? Sorry, no helping terminal mental illness. Why are you living for answers and not experiences? By your own admission you are a virgin. Has it not occurred to you that in your ignorance/innocence (pick whichever suits your taste, I use them interchangeably with no loaded intent) you are incapable of judging unexplored territory?

There are other roles you have yet to even consider important or fulfilling. Becoming a father is an obvious positive. The respect of real colleagues in the working world beyond the sphere of academia is another. You have not even begun to experience a role where you exercise authority. There are soft qualities to all new roles and experiences we can never quite account for.

But why stop at the golden handcuffs? What is stopping you from becoming a villain? A despicable scoundrel who cheats on and later divorces his faithful loving wife in the name of caprice. Perhaps you NEED that kind of betrayal to make intimacy meaningful. Perhaps the reality of your marriage bed is a source of despair rather than joy.

Why are you so resolutely caught up in solidified perceptions of "good" and "guilt" and "responsibility"? Surely your own life has some value, right? Is it not within your rights to willfully misbehave, break norms, and invite scorn, hatred, worry, and a host of perceptions you have never encountered in your charmed life? These are all very real experiences. Vertiginous experiences. Your distaste for them out of principle does not deny their existence and your ignorance/innocence is a blindness. A blindness you choose to uphold, not one you are forced to uphold.

You may protest that you can logically assess why this or that bad behavior would contribute to suffering. You can even weigh the cost of the suffering and the fleeting pleasure on the scales of your mind and find that the cost is absurdly, unthinkable imbalanced. So much to lose over something so trite. But you will never know what that indulgence would actually feel like. Does it frighten you that a caprice could very well be more valuable and meaningful to you than all the purported goodness and weighty honor in the world?

You, a tortured soul who carries the scales of Anubis like a scarlet letter, knowingly willfully and recklessly indulging in adding excess suffering rather than your prudent and noble minimization. Tortured because you know it can never be fully removed. Relieved because you are no longer crushed under the inevitable weight of the impossibility of your venture.

>>18635693
>>18633035
(2)

Putting aside rebellion you also must acknowledge the antithesis of fatalism is change. A perception set in stone can be weathered by time into something completely unrecognizable. The marriage bed can be a real source of authentic joy and deteriorate into a source of resentment over time. And you can live both of these truths authentically free from guilt. Your perceptions are bound to the moment, not the shades of the past. If you only set store by withered husks of former meaning then because of your good intentions your world will atrophy into the meaninglessness you fear.

Or you'll shit out a kid, get promoted at work, go turbo dad mode and laugh at your younger ignorant self. You'll kick this can down the road 20 more years and by then it may seem as insignificant to you as counting angels on a pinhead.

Rooting for you however you choose to sort this out.

>>18632889
>>18632917
Read Plato

>>18635513
You lack the will to power. Serve someone who has found it. That will give you your why.

>>18635732
Why would servitude give a meaning?

>>18635751
Something retarded libertarians never figure out is that there are constructs that require more than one person. The blatant example is creating a child. There are plenty of meaningful purposes that involve undertaking actions on behalf of another. They are no less meaningful because of service, they are only meaningful because of the service.

>god is dead, and we have killed him

>>18632768
>not nightch

>>18635231
>>18635261
there's more nuance to absurdism than this: the futile search for meaning becomes the reason for being itself though not elevated to a cosmic meaning but rather as an answer to the question of how one retains individual dignity in a meaningless world.

the individual revolt against the absurd is rationalized by an emotional appeal to human experience. this does not solve the logical paradox but rather says that, if you believe that it is better to retain dignity in a meaningless world than not (an emotional, not logical idea, that most people hold regardless), you go about this through a continual life-affirming revolt against the absurd instead of succumbing to nihilism.

>>18636175
>rebelling against the inevitable
>accepting the inevitable

>>18636192
I'm not saying the argument is foolproof. However, I think the underlying idea is instead not to be broken by the inevitable. Camus makes a big show of not circumventing or ignoring the absurdity in a juvenile way and instead keeping conscious of it in a life-enriching way. Standing up to it and moving in spite of an utter lack of reason to move carries with it a sort of human dignity he advocates for in this context. To Camus, "accepting" it in the way I think you mean is tantamount to suicide either physically or philosophically.

>>18635693
>>18635702
>Have sex lol

>>18633035
If it's guilt that is wanting to make you kill yourself just adjust your lifestyle to be ethical. Go cabin mode and not use any plastics.

Once you find that to be too difficult, return to normalcy and have a newfound appreciation for your lifestyle. Get bored and slip back into your previous thoughts and then repeat.
Forever and ever.
Until you die.
Which would've happened anyway.
:)

>>18633035
Why do you care about suffering? Pain, even agony, is nothing more than information before the senses - data fed into the computer of the mind.

>>18635525
The soul of a logician

>>18636307
Oh! Well that's a relief

>>18635732
>>18635767

>>18632954
You have to imagine Sisyphus happy, anon

>>18634610
Camus adds that meaning or the closest thing to it is found in the pursuit of meaning regardless of ultimate futility

>>18632730
I read, I think, I understand, I am. Your pathetic "nihilism" can go spook other individuals.

>>18632954
Wait till she hits the wall then kys; it'd be a terrible waste, not to mention devilishly selfish, not to enjoy a cute girl's body that's fallen into your lap whilst so many men live as poor incels.

Not me tho.

>>18636301
cute puppy desu

Would existence be bearable if we were non-stop constantly surrounded by an infinite amount of perpetually young puppies?

What about Girls?

>>18633035
i used to think the same way. i became vegan and stopped consuming as much as was practical to reduce the ammount of suffering i caused. i saw a therapist thinking it would help but they couldn't help me because my problem was mainly philosophical and only partially psychological. I had also been flinging myself at various things that were supposed to help me feel better according to the therapist like mindfulness, excersise, socialization, religon, etc. i read the corpus hermeticum and buddhist suttas which challenged my notion of existence as evil. then i read thus spoke zarathustra which challenged my assumption that my own suffering is a bad thing.
afterwards i read a lot of carl jung. his philosophical ideas were very informative to me and his psychological concepts have helped me to continue moving forward.
these texts are unexplainable because they act like mirrors. you will glean a completely different set of values from them than i did. in short, you're in a period of nihilism after dismantling cultural views that were given to you, but from the nihilism you will create your own set of virtues to live by and give your life meaning.

inb4 blogpost im just trying to give context for what i say
tldr read corpus hermeticum, in the buddha's words, thus spoke zarathustra, and carl jung

>>18637434
despite not having read that, I recognize the reference to camus

>>18633035
>>18632954
thanks for hijacking a thread about nihilism and making it about you. You're a selfish faggot, no wonder you are considering suicide - literally the most selfish act in the world. KYS anytime pls.

>>18632730
The path just keeps going, and going and going and going and going. Where are you now? The present. And the future is forward. The past is back. You keep going, and you're always in the present LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL