/lit/ - Literature

I know we have fragments of Against the Galileans by Julian the Apostate.

More of a critique of Christianity than a Pagan Apology though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Galileans

>>18625569
same of this kind: 'The True Word' by Celsus and 'Epistle concerning the Christian religion' by Pliny the Younger.

The most similar thing to a pagan apologist was Pindar, as far as I know. He was the favourite of the sacerdotal caste in Greece, in oposition to Homer that portrayed the Gods with a lot human imperfections, Pindar was the opposite to this. Also Hesiod was more like Pindar in this Aspect.

A different profile in the other side, defending Homer, was Heraclitus the Homeric (commentator). In his work, Heraclitus defended Homer against those who denounced him for his immoral portrayals of the gods. Heraclitus based his defense of Homer on allegorical interpretation.

Bumping for interest

>>18625520
Julian was too based for this cringe world...

>>18625520
>Do we still have texts defending Paganism against Christianity from an intellectual standpoint?
In the sense? Those few that have survived, for example, in the accusations of Christian writers (and there is no certainty that they were not corrected).
>Have there ever been attempts to systematize the pagan and polytheistic worldview in opposition with the christian one?
Pic rel. But he was not alone. There was, for example, an exposition of Sallust. It seems there were still known attempts, but now I can't remember.
>Is paganism doomed to end up in either relativism or in monism?
Firstly, it is not clear what "paganism" means. This is just an insult used by Christians. Julian was not a pagan, but a "Hellenist". Second, he was much more monotheist than most Christians.
Paganism (we are talking only about the Greco-Roman religion) was dead, so was the ancient polis and the ancient man who lived in it. When there was an ancient man, he peacefully worshiped Athena in Athens, arriving in Corinth, he calmly worshiped there, for example, Aphrodite, and in Delphi, Apollo. That did not exclude the possibility of worshiping Apollo and Aphrodite in Athens, etc. Rome created a single political and soon legal space, the most conservative spiritual sphere lasted longer, but still the evolution was in the direction of monotheism. This does not mean at all Christianity, which in the form we know is the same product of the Roman world as Julian. Outside of Rome, we would have had a completely different Christianity.
I came to the conclusion (I read a lot about this before) that the hypothetical victory of Julian over Christianity would lead to the fact that in 100-200 years there would be exactly the same Hellenistic church. Instead of the biblical Yahweh, there would be the One God of the neo-Platonists, instead of Christ - Mithra, instead of the Holy Spirit - the Sun-Helios (the details may differ, it doesn't matter), instead of the saints, local "gods" would be worshiped, as ancient philosophers would be worshiped as righteous and prophets. Christ would be the local saint of Judea, for example. At the same time, antique texts would still be censored. For example, in Iliad, the Gods quarrel among themselves and commit adultery. Fix Illiade.
Antique statues could have been broken: Aphrodite is depicted there as some kind of prostitute, and Aphrodite is a manifestation of pure divine love. The sculptor is wicked, smash the statue. Epicurus did not believe in gods! Burn his writings! Julian would not have done this, but in his letter he rejoiced that "the gods destroyed the works of the wicked Epicurus."
That is, there would still be "Dark Ages", at best a little more ancient texts would have survived.

>>18625520
Christians destroyed most of it. So most of what we have of it are from quotes in Christian responses. St Cyril in Alexandria for example conducted actual door to door searches for Julians writings.

You must never forget the utter depravity that is Christianity. They took a huge and massive dump on the world after the conversion of Rome, and everything since then must be viewed through that shit stained lens.

>>18627405
read a boook

>>18627494
I have. Hence my extensive knowledge on the subject of Christian depravities.

>>18625520
Porphyry

"Pagan" is a meaningless term. The "Pagan" world of Ancient Rome encompassed
>Stoics
>Epicureans
>Eleatics
>Skeptics
>(Neo)Platonists
This doesn't account for
>Zoroastrianism
>Mithraism
>The Isiac Mysteries
>Orphism
>The Eleusian Mysteries
Which ALSO doesn't account for
>Roman ethnic religion
>Greek ethnic religions (plural, "Greek polytheism" is realistically a plurality)
>Illyrian ethnic religion
>Germanic ethnic religion
>Celtic ethnic religion
>Etruscan ethnic religion
>Anatolian ethnic religions
>Egyptian ethnic religions
>Semitic ethnic religions sans Judaism

Every one of these has its own statements about the world and can be mixed and matched as needed. "Paganism" as a class only really means "anything that isn't Judaism and Islam" as many of the same qualifiers that make "Germanic Neoplatonism" "Pagan" also apply to Christianity.

"Relativism" here is a useless scareword. The Greeks absolutely were relativists, Aristotle explains this. They lived in a theological pluralism, their very polytheism required it. Religion period is relativistic, any attempts at arguing otherwise are retarded.

If you want apologetics, pick one of the above and then read what it has to say. There were no "Pagans".

bump

>>18628153
based pedant

>>18625520
Sozimus wrote a History arguing the decline of Rome was caused by Christianity. Not a very good history desu.

>>18628153
>"Relativism" here is a useless scareword. The Greeks absolutely were relativists, Aristotle explains this.
a relativistic attitude towards exterior religious forms is not the same as accepting moral relativism or metaphysical relativism, which the Greeks were more disproving of.

>>18625520
>Have there ever been attempts to systematize the pagan and polytheistic worldview in opposition with the christian one
That was the whole goal of Porphyry and Iamblichus et al.

>>18625520
Not his intention by any stretch to specifically defend pagan religions, but the works of egyptologist Jan Assmann interpret monotheism as a "counter-religion."

>>18627494
If only we could...

>>18628792
>moral relativism
>metaphysical relativism
You're going to have to define what these terms mean.

>>18628153
Also, if you want a work that literally just says this, but in far more detail, look up "A World Full of Gods" by John Michael Greer. I'm just going to sum it up by saying that
>the basic assumptions that YOU might hold about reality are not the ones that other people do

>Which is more beautiful, to confess the Cross or to attribute to those whom you call gods adultery and the seduction of boys? For that which is chosen by us is a sign of courage and a sure token of the contempt of death, while yours are the passions of licentiousness. Next, which is better, to say that the Word of God was not changed, but, being the same, He took a human body for the salvation and well-being of man, that having shared in human birth He might make man partake in the divine and spiritual nature ; or to liken the divine to senseless animals and consequently to worship four-footed beasts, creeping things and the likenesses of men? For these things, are the objects of reverence of you wise men
Pagans btfo by an illiterate cave dwelling monk.

>>18627499
>Tell us therefore where your oracles are now? Where are the charms of the Egyptians? Where the delusions of the magicians? When did all these things cease and grow weak except when the Cross of Christ arose? Is It then a fit subject for mockery, and not rather the things brought to nought by it, and convicted of weakness? For this is a marvellous thing, that your religion was never persecuted, but even was honoured by men in every city, while the followers of Christ are persecuted, and still our side flourishes and multiplies over yours. What is yours, though praised and honoured, perishes, while the faith and teaching of Christ, though mocked by you and often persecuted by kings, has filled the world. For when has the knowledge of God so shone forth? Or when has self-control and the excellence of virginity appeared as now? Or when has death been so despised except when the Cross of Christ has appeared? And this no one doubts when he sees the martyr despising death for the sake of Christ, when he sees for Christ's sake the virgins of the Church keeping themselves pure and undefiled.

>>18629032
>the seduction of boys
I think the church missed his memo

>>18628850
>tfw assmann

>>18625520
it ends up being ancient LARPing reactionaries, even by the athenian golden age philosophers already had serious doubts about the logical cogency of the gods. one of the appeals of christianity and later islam was that it's not easy to tie god up in logical knots

>>18629144
Checked. But if you're seriously interested in the religious revolution we take for granted, "Moses the Egyptian" and "The Price of Monotheism." Start with the Assmann.

>>18629032
>christian monk
>lambasting anyone for the seducing of boys
the chutzpah on this yid lmfao

>>18629156
>one of the appeals of christianity and later islam was that it's not easy to tie god up in logical knots
Or that you've got the rabble on your side who are guaranteed personal immortality if they martyr themselves for the Pauline cause.

>>18629156
So then why bother with being a Muslim? If our choices are between materialist atheism and a world full of meaning and intelligent entities, why bother with the half measure at all?

>>18629210
because as soon as you become aware of the former the latter becomes impossible. monotheism didn't defeat paganism it superseded it

>>18629210
Islam was spread through conquest and while they didn't force conversion a lot of people converted just to avoid taxes.

>>18629257
>spread through conquest
>didn't force conversion
Do you read what you type? I suppose this is like if a mafioso were to defend his racketeering by pleading "what if the shopkeeper consents"?

>>18629257
during the classical era there was a roman writer (can't remember the name) who tried to produce a comprehensive list of temples, gods, and cults and even in his time there were gods whose rites were scrupulously observed despite nobody remembering the god's name or even what he was supposed to do. it's easier to believe in a god who rules the whole world than it is to have to remember to sacrifice a dove and spit on a mirror every 7th thursday lest something horrible happen but nobody can tell you what or why

>>18629273
>in his time there were gods whose rites were scrupulously observed despite nobody remembering the god's name or even what he was supposed to do.
Extremely unfathomably based premise for a kafkaesque historical fiction right there.

>>18629267
It's true, though. After conquering the lands they would allow people to retain their religion. The Quran prohibits forced conversion. The people had to pay the jizya. I'm simply suggesting that people converted to save money, not because they found islam a compelling religion.

>>18629292
It's compelling to save your city from three days of looting isn't it?

>>18627377
>Sallust
good rec

>>18629195
Give me a quick rundown

>>18627494
>read a boook
nytimes.com/2018/06/08/books/review/catherine-nixey-darkening-age.html

>>18629390
>quick rundown
Judaism is a "satanic" inversion of Egyptian Religion.

They applied Normative Inversion; all rituals and norms and laws are direct opposites of what the Egyptians did
>bar some very important things like the cherubim and the holy of holies and the architecture of their Temple.

They deconstructed it and then built up a new "Identity" based on what they now "aren't"
>like how the Chinese apply Shanzai to European things.
>pic related.

>Jan Assmann; Moses The Egpytian
>The Hatred Born on Sinai:
https://counter-currents.com/2014/06/moses-the-egyptian/

https://counter-currents.com/2014/07/notes-on-moses-the-egyptian/
>Notes on Moses the Egyptian

>Freud; Moses and Monotheism
https://archive.org/details/mosesandmonothei032233mbp

>The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority
https://archive.is/QMWAa

>Jews as a Metaphysical Species
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3751470?seq=1

>>18629551
>counter-currents still exists
Impressive. I would have thought they went the way of all that alt right shit

>>18628153
>philosophical schools are the same thing as religious sects
You might as well go about splitting hairs on Christian denominations, hell go a step further and point out the distinctions between the Jesuits and the Franciscans.

>>18629285
one of the really interesting things about the romans is how superstitious they were despite their aggressive pragmatism in other realms. they'd do shit like delay military marches during critical campaigns if the general messed up one step of the elaborate religious rite he was supposed to perform before starting. just imagine not even knowing the names or functions of your gods but living in perpetual fear of them anyway

>>18629669
You are misreading the other guy and religion generally. The "pagans" did not have the true/false distinction that mosaics do, since they accepted cross-cultural interpretation of divine names. One could not have false gods, there were either gods or not, to be worshipped or contemplated in some way or not. To interpret Greco-Roman philosophy as religious sectarianism makes no sense contextually.

>>18629680
Now imagine they are doing that at the same time as the Persians on the other side of the river and getting the same "try again later" readings from the phenomena relied on for divination. 2spooky

>>18629687
>they accepted cross-cultural interpretation of divine names
Christians did as well, they just saw a universal God instead of individual ethnic/family gods. The influence of Neoplatonism on multiple Church Fathers is obvious. Hell the Old Testament is pretty explicitly henotheistic as well.

The pagans also made distinctions between gods and not all of them being equal. The Romans thought anthropomorphic Egyptian gods were weird compared to the Hellenic pantheon for example.

>>18625520
>Do we still have texts defending Paganism against Christianity from an intellectual standpoint?
Yes,
>>18629525
>nytimes.com/2018/06/08/books/review/catherine-nixey-darkening-age.html
>>18625678
>The Christians, Celsus wrote, 'do not want to give or receive reason for what they believe, they make use of the principles “Do not inquire, believe ”and“ Your faith will save you ”». For learned men like Celso and Galen, that was incomprehensible; in philosophy Greek, faith was the lowest form of knowledge.
>Celso was not only irritated by the lack of education of those people. It was much worse than, in fact, celebrate ignorance. They declared, he wrote, that "the wisdom is abominable and ignorance a good ', a quote almost exact from the book of Corinthians.

>As Celsus pointed out, Jesus was not the only one who had claimed to have risen. Did the Christians believe that these other stories of rising from the dead were "Tales, and such seem", but that they had found "a outcome of your most congruent and convincing drama »?

>Celso attacks the tendency for only a reduced number of people witness some of its most miraculous moments.
>Executed, then, he was seen by the whole world; risen, by only one; which should have been at otherwise.
>The witnesses offered by the Bible are, for Celso, unreliable. Of the resurrection he says: «And who saw All this? An angry woman, as you say », and another person, who invented these "rumors". Therefore, the Resurrection was due to "a certain predisposition of spirit" or perhaps to "a delirium". To Celsus, the statement that Christ He was divine seems to him a logical impossibility. How can be immortal a dead man? .
>The idea that Jesus came to Saving sinners is also treated with indifference. What preference is that for sinners? -question-. So did He not send it to the sinless? How bad is it to not have sinned?


>The Greek rhetorician Lucian, who described Christians as "those wretches,"
>he wrote the satirical account of one of those men, a charlatan (as Lucian saw him) who lived in Greece called Peregrine. Desperate for fame this pseudo-philosopher grew his hair long and traveled the empire preaching platitudes.
>Lived off charity, earned one reputation among the credulous, and eventually committed suicide jumping into a bonfire to "be useful to mankind indicating to him how death should be despised ».
> Luciano, who was watching, did not learn to despise the death, but yes to despise the "damn stench of singe" of an old man burning to death.
>Prior to die, Peregrine had hesitated, stopping next to the you call and deliver a sermon. While he lingered, some of those gathered implored him to be saved, while others - "the most courageous," as he approvingly describes them Luciano— shouted: «You have just decided to fulfill your purpose.

>"As for me," Luciano said, as I know you can imagine - how I was laughing »
Cathrine Nixey ; The Darkening
pg 60 - 74

>>18629713
>Christians did as well, they just saw a universal God instead of individual ethnic/family gods
Well they did gradually eliminate these rivals. No one calls the god of Abraham Zeus or Jupiter. And this was quite resisted by the pre-Christian Judaeans as well, considering the events that set off the Macabbean revolt against the Hellenistic forerunners of the Romans. So when Christians run universalizing states they have less issue with this, but on the receiving end of an empire the monotheists have a problem with localization.

>>18629737
>The idea that Jesus came to Saving sinners is also treated with indifference. What preference is that for sinners? -question-. So did He not send it to the sinless? How bad is it to not have sinned?
This is hilarious. Not sure even Nietzsche caught that one.

Reminder paganism is the cult established on death, ignorance-and-knowledge, expiatory victims. It is the religion of the world par excellence. So yes, as Assmann says, Judaism is the beginning of a true religion or a supra-religion, exposing the pagan deities as what they are: false mythological idols representing primordial events.

>>18629693
>>18629687
>Severus Trolliolanus Maximus, roll the Dice, we must consult the Digits for guidance
>rolls Dice
>Double Two's
>Numerals have been Witnessed, spread the news to the Board, we Raid Tumblr today as planned.
You have to read this:
Some Romans had so little patience with the rites of Roman religion that they discarded it completely. A moonlit night in the 3rd century BC, a Roman consul named Publio Claudio Pulcro decided to launch a surprise attack against an enemy fleet. Before setting off, he took performing the customary rites of protection required prior to a military action. According to these, he released the chickens sacred from their cage.
>They refused to eat, what a terrible omen and a clear sign that the gods do not they favored that attempt, which had to be renounced. But it was not a clear signal for Publio Claudio Pulcro. While throwing the chickens to the sea, he scoffed: «Since they don't want to eat, they drink, ”and set off for what would be a disastrous battle.

>But not all Romans were cynical. "We toowe are a religious people, "said an irritated official to some Christian pious. [124] It was a very shared that the great success of Rome depended on good will of the gods. As one character in the Roman history: "All went well as long as we obeyed the gods, and bad when we reject them ”. [125]
>This state of divine benevolence - the pax deorum or "peace of the gods" - It was not a manna that fell from heaven on the Romans, divinely deserving of it. These did not get without more the favor of the gods and could not take this peace for granted.

>The true grace of Claudio Pulcro story recounted by Cicero, is not the scene of the chickens, but what happened next; after losing the battle, they judged him and he soon died.
Cathrine Nixey ; The Darkening Age
pg 78

>>18629755
>So yes, as Assmann says, Judaism is the beginning of a true religion or a supra-religion, exposing the pagan deities as what they are: false mythological idols representing primordial events.
Quote?

>>18629755
>It is the religion of the world par excellence
That's why it's great, "true religion" is lame rationalizing wrapped up in myth for people who hate life.

>Oppress other religions
>Destroy their sites and scriptures
>Do it all in the name of righteousness
Christians were the original Muslims

>>18629755
I'm not sure how tenable a reading that is given that monotheism relies on miracles and revelation to establish itself as true religion and others as false. From a neutal pov that's pretty obviously mythologizing; doesn't sound like that's your take. The actual distinction made is that the other religions are made to be false, all of them, instead of just what the Babylonians or the Egyptians call the same gods. Because they can't have had the same god(s) based on the monotheist's own theology of exclusive revelation.

>>18629782
The noble scoffing of a particular Roman at anything he didn't like to me always comes across as very kindred and endearing. "I don't like it, because fuck off that's why."

>>18629755
>So yes, as Assmann says, Judaism is the beginning of a true religion or a supra-religion, exposing the pagan deities as what they are: false mythological idols representing primordial events.
No he doesn't.
>I call your Gods, your Traditions, your Myths Fake while at Sword Point demand you to accept my Own as True.

>>18629807
This view is reductionist and didn't really exist until some fat British dude invented it in the 1700s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Gibbon

>>18629829
>The noble scoffing of a particular Roman at anything he didn't like to me always comes across as very kindred and endearing. "I don't like it, because fuck off that's why."
Amazing how Grounded they were in Strength.
Like that quote
>Was it from Nietzsche? or Spengler?
Anyways; the Roman Senate just announces as if nothing that they have Lost the battle of Carrhae: "We've lost, and we will keep fighting".

Rome's history is Mental.

>>18629795
I mean, he obviously can’t see what it means for it to be different, “counter-religious” as he says.

>>18629821
The revelation is exactly its movement away from paganistic culture and institutions and the exposition of the pagan practices.

Reminder there is no evidence, no confirmation, of destructions and burning of books from pagans by christians. The only one was an individual, isolated case of an orthodox destroying Pletho’s work and immediayely regretting and writing some of the content again in a letter.

>>18629857
>I mean, he obviously can’t see what it means for it to be different, “counter-religious” as he says.
> he obviously can’t see what it means
Kek, look at this Shrewd Worm.

>>18629868
Right, but they would get copied less often. It's just a matter of what was viewed as important rather than intentionally getting rid of books.

>>18629878
You are right. It was affirmed they should not try to fight against temporal test. But are you going to blame them for preserving whatever they found important rather than what attacked their religion?

>>18629868
>Reminder there is no evidence, no confirmation, of destructions and burning of books from pagans by christians.
They Destroyed the Temple of Serapis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapeum_of_Alexandria
>It has been referred to as the daughter of the Library of Alexandria. The site has been heavily plundered
>the daughter of the Library of Alexandria.
> The site has been heavily plundered

>The Greek writer Eunapius felt that the destruction was not carried out so much out of reverence to the Lordas out of sheer greed. In his account, Christians were not virtuous warriors, but ruffians and thieves. The only thing not stole, he stared pointedly, it was the ground, that stood there «Simply because of the weight of the stones, which was not easy to move from your site. As he wrote scornfully, "those honorable and bellicose men 'had destroyed that beautiful temple for 'greed', but once they had ended with their vandalism
they boasted that had overthrown the gods, and considered their sacrilege and impiety something of which they should boast ”.

>Did not remain nothing. The Christians took to the ashlars of the temple, knocking down the huge marble columns and making the walls will come down. The entire sanctuary was demolished with amazing speed; the greatest building in the world it was "scattered to the four winds". [230] The tens of thousands of books, what was left of the largest library of the world, they were completely lost and never recovered.
> As the researcher Luciano Canfora: «the burning of the books was part of the advent and imposition of Christianity. ' Thewar against pagan temples was also a war against the books that were frequently stored in hisinside so that they were safe, a concept that from that moment could only be remembered with irony. Burning was a significant moment in what Canfora has called «the melancholic experiences of the war waged by Christianity against the old culture and its sanctuaries, against libraries »
Catherine Nixey ; The Darkening Age
Pg 123 -124

>>18629051
>Christianity is slave morality and it's early martyr cult thrived on being persecuted
I think most people knew this already you do not have to post walls of text

>>18629918
Did you even read your own link you illiterate Seether? It explicitly says that there were almost certainly no books there, the Library had been abandoned long ago (due to burnings by the Great Pagans) and that this is just retarded anti-Christian bitching.

But repeating a title makes you feel great hub.

Oh. And using a Journalist as source of historical debate? A journalist widely reviled for being a shitty writer?

"Despite popular success, the book received extensive criticism from professional scholars of late antiquity and the Middle Ages, who accused it of telling a simplistic, polemical narrative and exaggerating the extent to which early Christians suppressed aspects of older Greek and Roman cultures"

You are beyond pathetic. Seethe harder loser.

>>18629916
Deliberate lack of preservation may as well be considered a method of destruction.

>>18629963
>huur duur slave morality
Cringe teenagers.

>>18629807
>Oppress other religions
>Murder their preachers and followers
>Do it all in the name of dog fucking pagan gods

>>18629918
>Catherine Nixey
Pic related. The absolute state of pagan larpers, top fucking lmao!
Please refrain from citing stupid kike cunts.

>>18629032
>muh feels
Peak christcuck dialectics

>>18630005
>(due to burnings by the Great Pagans)
Kitos War; Jews and Roman conflict.
>>18630005
>But repeating a title makes you feel great hub.
No,
I am citing the Source.
Don't project on me how you feel.
It's the reason how you can cite and argue back at me you REE'ing autist.

>You are beyond pathetic. Seethe harder loser.
>ad-hominem's out of the blue
>projecting
Kek
>>18630044
>a photo of Catherine Nixey
>an arguement
>more Ad-homs.
Wew

Yeah,
a total coincidence a Marvel of Antiuiquity was Shoah'd by Christians to dust.
That Hypatia was flayed alive
That the Olympic Games stopped.
>In 393 A.D., the emperor Theodosius I issued a decree suppressing all pagan festivals to bolster Rome's state religion, Christianity. This decree officially killed the Olympic Games

>In 380 CE, Christianity became the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of the Emperor Flavius Theodosius. The Roman Empire was now a "Christian" theocracy. The corrupt "Christian" leaders were ecstatic at the prospect of being able to loot all the "pagan" temples and monuments. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, began the destruction of pagan temples throughout his area. "Christian" priests led a vicious mob against the temple of the goddess Demeter in Eleusis and attempted to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The ninety-five year old hierophant Nestorius terminated the Eleusinian Mysteries and announced "the predominance of mental darkness over the human race."

>We destroyed the Heathens
>Oy we saved Antiquity!
Christian "Logic"

>>18629051
>For this is a marvellous thing, that your religion was never persecuted
Lmao everytime christians managed to grow in numbers they instantly started persecuting locals.

>>18629868
>Reminder there is no evidence, no confirmation, of destructions and burning of books from pagans by christians.
lel it is literally in the new testament

The absolute state of christlarpers.

>>18629156
Parmenides and Plato were only the founders of a new tendency in history, logocentrism/anthropocentrism was just a phase, projecting human morals to supra-human forces is at least questionable. Nowdays we are more similar to pre-socratics like Heraclitus and Homer than to Plato. Also we are more similar to Buddhism or Hinduism than to Christianism, such is post-humanism

>>18630067
It's a shit source that you can't defend. Like all your other sources. Nothing in your source talks about the Sapeion being a part of the Library then.

Also, these Pagan Wars:
"The Library, or part of its collection, was accidentally burned by Julius Caesar during his civil war in 48 BC, but it is unclear how much was actually destroyed and it seems to have either survived or been rebuilt shortly thereafter; the geographer Strabo mentions having visited the Mouseion in around 20 BC and the prodigious scholarly output of Didymus Chalcenterus in Alexandria from this period indicates that he had access to at least some of the Library's resources.

The Library dwindled during the Roman period, due to a lack of funding and support. Its membership appears to have ceased by the 260s AD. Between 270 and 275 AD, the city of Alexandria saw a Palmyrene invasion and an imperial counterattack that probably destroyed whatever remained of the Library, if it still existed at that time."

Did you ever read anything that isn't written by a hack?

> Hypathia was flayed alive! This is related to the burning of books!
Ah so you watched the shitty movie. So much for well read. That's why's all your sourced are shit. Keep seething harder little shit

>>18630294
Source? Show me the part.

#CLM
bring down those pagan statues
I CANT FEED

>>18629247
No, it conquered it by force. With Sword and with diplomacy.

>>18629551
>The Hatred Born on Sinai:
>https://counter-currents.com/2014/06/moses-the-egyptian/
>The Traditionalist school is based but they just need to reject Abrahamic monotheism.
Interesting take from Greg Johnson, I wonder if his homosexuality played into him taking this view, or how would he respond to the concurrence between Abrahamic mysticism and Indian/Chinese teachings

>>18629755
>paganism is the cult established on death
>t. death cultist

>arguing with 4chan neocatholics
>ever
they're bigger larpers than modern pagans

>>18630017
Pagans did the same even among themselves. I don’t need to remind you about the destructions and attempts thereof. Do you remember for instance Plato and Democritus?

Paganism was already destroyed and exposed as false religion by gnostics, Origen, Augustine, Girard. But paganlarpers don’t care, deep down they know it is true but use it for idpol reasons.

>>18630856
Correct, Hypatia was not flayed alive, she was stoned with pottery shards and raped to death by Jewish converts to Christianity for trying to foster peace between two Christians.

>>18630861
He's referring to when Paul comes in and tells the Greeks that they only real deity is the Jewish tribal one, and then everybody clasp and they burn all of their holy texts. Anyways, Cyril's entire career, Julian's book, etc etc etc.

>>18631300
Good argument against Christianity tbqh.

>>18629669
We should. "Christianity" as this weird amorphous thing that has the only tenet of "Judaism is BASED White People are CRINGE give money to Joel Osteen send your kids to work on Israeli olive farms as slave labor" is an incredibly modern invention that only really exists online as some kind of weak opponent to criticism of the Bible.

Religion cannot be extricated from the actual practice of religion. To do so is to kill it (I mean this literally; academia does this and knows that it's doing this).

>>18629687
Yes they did. The Greeks did this all the time. They just outright denied that certain foreign deities existed, and if they had to accept a foreign deity as having some validity, they'd argue that the barbarians were ACTUALLY just worshiping [insert Greek deity here], but they were doing it wrongly and should do it the correct way (which is the Greek way). The Romans did this too. The Roman elite, in the pursuit of empire, adopted a stance of collecting Gods because the Romans loved the Gods the most (this was a position they held) and as such they needed to love all of the Gods, but the Romans made true/false distinctions all the time.

This weird idea that only Jews are capable of saying "no, we do not do that" is completely absurd, and I'm not sure where you retards get it from because it's certainly not from reading anything about European polytheism.

>>18631541
while what you're saying is true, the notion that paganism is just kumbaya tralala everyone accepts what everyone else believes is really widespread, often finding itself even in academic works

>>18631570
So is the idea that Jesus was a gay prostitute, I mean hell huge numbers of catholarpers on here believe it. What you're suggesting is a Christian notion of how pre-Christian religion works (and now we have Jesus so we're so much wiser and smarter now, aren't we great?), but if we're rejecting Abrahamic religion then we have no reason to adhere to Abrahamic narratives, so we can just look at the past and observe what people in the past thought. We can also just look around us an observe the world around us too, because without Abrahamic religion we have no need to hold to certain epistemological models necessary to shore up revelation.

If I'm an evil racist Nazi skinworshiping LARPer who only worships Odin because Watt Parr, or whatever "argument" Ben Shapiro is making today about why Israel needs another ten billion dollars, why wouldn't I reject shitty post-Christianity, which is literally just Christianity because you either are a Christian, or you're some other religion, alongside non-post-Christianity?

>>18630017
Then all the pagans are guilty of this, since they gleefully destroyed or burned down whatever they conquered. Rome destroyed the Druids and whatever was left of Celtic religion and culture. The Greeks did their best to stamp out Persian and Levant religions. We only have a very few writings of Greeks and Romans avout other cultures, that they killed, and most of those are distorted looking down and insisting on using Hellenistic names for their gods for example.

Meanwhile, the vast majority of what we have about Celtic, Norse and other European cultures is from who? Christian monks and writers who were trying to preserve it as history and tradition. Who saved the vast majority of Antiquity's writings via endless copying and preservation? Oh yeah the Church.

Cope harder Faggot.

>>18631637
>christfags, in spite of their religion telling them not to, recognized the beauty and truth of Europe's native religions
>therefore, we should all practice the religion that glorifies ugliness and demands you live in lies
Woah...

>>18625520
is it a sign of the times that pop culture holds this guy, who got btfo by the p*rsians, higher than constantine, who put a collapsing state together for a century longer?

>>18631284
>Pagans did the same even among themselves
Your point?

>>18631659
But Constantine's dynasty was one of the worst that Rome had. It set back Rome centuries and set up not only the fall of the West but eternally locking the East into a series of constant economic and military crises. The only spot of improvement in it was Julian.

>>18631713
why Julian?

>>18631723
For starters, Julian cut the massive tax rate. Rome's taxes were something like 90% at the time. It's part of why, when he was trying to get the Jews out of Europe, HE had to pay for the rebuilding of the Temple: that was literally the Emperor's job. Outside of his reign, essentially all buildings in the Empire were built using the Emperor's funds because no one else had any money. Julian's two-year reign is, ironically, one of the few periods in the Roman Empire's history in which Christians could publicly build their own churches without government aid.

People talk about Julian "restoring Roman religion", but he had no interest in Jupiter and Minerva and the Capitoline Hill, he wanted to bring back a romanticized combination of the Hellenic and city-state period. So, he made massive cuts to the bureaucracy and gave large amounts of political control back to the cities and provinces. Part of this was a stab at Christianity, as a massive swelling of the bureaucracy with clerics (the word "cleric" actually comes from "clericus", referring to secular bureaucrats, originally coming from a Greek word referring to secular bureaucrats) was part of how Christianity gained such a foothold in Rome after Constantine, he literally created government positions for Christians to have political power in.

The combination of these two events lead to a dramatic rise in efficiency and a cut in black-market dealings as suddenly the local elites no longer had to hide their affairs in the shadows to avoid being taxed into poverty, so they could just openly build bridges and hold markets and the like.

Now of course Rome's economy was a fucking shitshow independent of religion and politics, so this is a rise in the middle of a massive trough. The Empire would have had many, many, many more economic fuckups, but they wouldn't be "losing the literal fucking city of Rome" and "creating a weird multi-cultural universal monarchy in the east" tier fuckups.

>>18631541
The entirety of monotheism consists of negating the practices of other peoples. The interpretatio graeci, even if it was bigoted, still allowed for foreign religions to co-exist. This does not exist for the christer or the habiru, for whom the other is gentile or goyim or some other accursed people lacking a covenant with the one true god.

>>18625520
I don't know, but to me it seems that the failing of Christianity is insistence on the existence of omnipotent God and the problem of evil, and for paganism the problem is the insistence on ''bribing'' gods to change your fortunes (although some Christians also do that...). If paganism leaned more towards indifferent, limited (generally) gods and ancestor worship then it would seem like a better choice.
But when I think about it, this is what Christianity (Catholicism to be exact) is to many average religious people where I live. Remembering and venerating the dead is generally more important than most other aspects of the faith.

Only sorta related to the topic of this thread but as a Muslim reading up on Roman religiosity I realized soemthign a little funny, when orthodox Sunni Muslims (that is, Ash'ari Muslims) say the word deen (which can basically be translated as religion), they specifically mean the Abrahamic religions. By their standards, ever other religion isn't really a religion. I thought this sorta was similar to the Roman concept of superstitio, in contrast to Roman religion which properly honored their gods. In this way, by saying the previous Abrahamic religions also worship the one true God (even if they do so incorrectly), Islam takes a similar position on religiosity to the romans. not saying this to larp as a Roman or something, just a connection I didn't think I would make.

>>18629273
>it's easier to believe in a god who rules the whole world
Nah. Unless you believe that that god is ''evil'' or doesn't care.

It (and Islam too) robbed you of your ancestral faith, it robbed you of your ancestors.

>>18631756
seems like it depends on who you ask, some may say
> Valentinian and Valens faced a different, less visible type of crisis as well. They had taken over an empire that could not pay the bills previous emperors had accumulated and could not cover the future promises that Julian and Jovian had made. Much of the blame lay with Julian. Julian had cut tribute payments in many different parts of the empire,20 and he had also forgiven a large number of debts owed the treasury.21 He led an army of perhaps sixty-five thousand people into Persia, spent a great deal of money supplying it, and promised significant bonuses to his troops during the campaign.22 In addition to increasing expenses and cutting revenues, Julian reduced the total amount of property that the imperial government owned—an important resource that emperors could use to address food or revenue shortfalls.23 He returned to temples the properties that Constantine had taken from them, he returned to the cities civic estates that Constantius had taken over, and he gave properties to friends as gifts.

>>18632087
Right, and this is part of what I meant by there obviously being more economic problems. Julian's entire scheme is to try and burn down Constantine's massive bureaucracy while simultaneously keeping the heinously bloated eastern armies from rebelling. If he hadn't died like a fucking retard, it probably would have worked (he'd just let the eastern armies loot Persia, then fire them all, and nobody would care because they'd all individually be wealthy).

But he did die like a retard, but then so did basically everyone in the Constantinian dynasty. The dynasty itself died like a retard after internal backstabbing and bickering. Again, people see "The Great" on Constantine and imagine him to be this gigachad political genius, but he (like Julian) was just "The Guy That Went To Gaul", which meant he got to be in charge. It had nothing to do with any political brilliance on his part anymore than Julian being in charge had to do with political brilliance on his part (Julian being the Emperor is entirely attributable to him too being "The Guy That Went To Gaul").

>>18632373
Reading Will Durant's age of Faith; Didn't Julian save Gaul?

>>18632410
I haven't read that book, but yes. There's a weird trend in Rome where whoever goes to Gaul (a hyper-traditionalist localist militant backwater) in a conflict between seeming co-equals ends up willing. It happens to Caesar, it happens to Augustus, it happens to Constantine, it happens to Julian. There's a few others that also get this in between, but the point is there's a pattern. Julian did, however, during his time in Gaul fend off numerous Germanic invasions.

I hesitate to say that he "saved" Gaul here because the Germanics kept coming after he left, he was just in charge of playing whack-a-kraut (he'd been sent to Gaul to keep him from attaining power in the East). When he left, others took his place.

>>18632439
>I hesitate to say that he "saved" Gaul here because the Germanics kept coming after he left, he was just in charge of playing whack-a-kraut (he'd been sent to Gaul to keep him from attaining power in the East). When he left, others took his place.
Well if you fuck up you loose Gaul and the Western half falls, you Win and you've preserverd the Empire.

>>18632373
I don't know, the quoted pieces makes it seem like he was frivolous in rewarding his own friends, something that would eat up whatever he managed to save

>>18631480
>>18630067
>Correct, Hypatia was not flayed alive, she was stoned with pottery shards and raped to death by Jewish converts to Christianity for trying to foster peace between two Christians.

On Hypatia:
>The account of the attack varies; according to Socrates the Scholastic, the murdered with 'tiles', presumably skinned by the sharp edges of fragments of pottery. According to Juan de Nikiu (Chronicle, LXXXIV.87), the they dragged through the streets until he died; according to Damascio (fr. 43), they ripped the eyes; according to Hesiquio, cited in Dzielska (1995), p. 93, his body was scattered around the city.

>>18630856
Keep seething you monkey.

>>18629752
Not a Christian but that's a dumb argument considering their dogma holds every man to be tainted by Original Sin and that therefore there is no such things as the sinless, only different kinds of sinner.

>>18632769
>>The account of the attack varies; according to Socrates the Scholastic, the murdered with 'tiles', presumably skinned by the sharp edges of fragments of pottery. According to Juan de Nikiu (Chronicle, LXXXIV.87), the they dragged through the streets until he died; according to Damascio (fr. 43), they ripped the eyes; according to Hesiquio, cited in Dzielska (1995), p. 93, his body was scattered around the city.
Why are Christians like this?

>>18633173
brutal times make brutal people

>>18625520
Varg Vikernes.
>>18629752
Everyone is a sinner
>>18631187
Why did they always break off the noses?

True polytheism is a degradation of monotheism.

>>18634247
>Why did they always break off the noses?
so they couldnt breaff

>>18629755
Holy cringe.