/lit/ - Literature

>>18595210
>x BTFOS y

>>18595210
Don't these people realize they are like parodies of themseves? "I am proponent of X ideology therefore I must disagree with Y ideology"

Marx didn’t write a single word about ethics you retard.

>>18595265
Marxism doesn't mean Marx.

>>18595269
>marxism means whatever my paranoia fueled anxieties say it is!

>>18595269
Not sure what else I was supposed to assume given the OP picture and the fact that their post does not mention any other Marxist theorists. If you would like the broadly outline which marxists/trends in Marxist thinking the video specifically aims to address that would be nice.

>>18595210
Doesn't this cunt believes in Schopenhauerian Metaphysics? If so then all is One so there is no room for racism and fascism in the ethics of Schopenhauer from a Metaphysical perspective.

>>18595265
https://archive.org/stream/MarxEngelsCollectedWorksVolume10MKarlMarx/Marx%20%26%20Engels%20Collected%20Works%20Volume%205_%20Ma%20-%20Karl%20Marx_djvu.txt

"Who, except Stirner, is able to attribute such moral absurdities to the immoral revolutionary proletarians, who, as the whole civilised world knows <...>, have the wicked intention not “honestly to earn” their “enjoyment” but to take it by conquest! "

>>18595395
Yes. That affirms Marx is not a moralfag.

>>18595467
That affirms that Marx's ethics is pure hypocrisy: "Because dialectics, the wheel of history, dude!"

To quote Charles Taylor on the matter:

"What are the words of power they can pronounce? Plainly these are the passages in which the goods are invoked without being recognized"
"Because their moral sources are unavowable, they are mainly invoked in polemic. Their principal words of power are denunciatory. Much of what they live by has to be inferred from the rage with which their enemies are attacked and refuted. Marxism is an excellent case in point.
This self-concealing kind of philosophy is also thereby parasitic. In the case of the radical Enlightenment, doubly so. First, it is parasitic on its adversaries for the expression of its own moral sources, its own words of power, and hence for its continuing moral force. But second, since it undermines all previous formulations of the constitutive good which could ground the life goods it recognizes, without putting any in its place, it also lives to some degree on these earlier formulations. We saw how utilitarianism continues and builds on an existing turn of argument, in, e.g., denouncing certain philosophies for the pride with which they elevate certain goals over our common and sensual fulfilments. The invocation of pride made sense within the original Christian context, in contrast to the humility which is proper to those who are all equally children of God. This is denied, but no new context is provided."

>>18595508
>hypocrisy
Appeal to hypocrisy is invalid. I voted for trump and I'm a Marxist. As for much rage, it is a natural instinct and justified. When grug saw dumbhead with pile of resources, he hit him in the head and took what was his.

>>18595508
For the third time, Marx does not write about ethics at all, he doesn’t think the proletariat is the subject of history because they ought to be out of some moral obligation, but because in material reality under the current system of production, capital necessarily becomes more social, and it is in their own material interest to use these changes to seize political power. Socialism itself was a response to capital’s inherent destruction of all social realities that hinder it’s growth, a way to hold on to humanity in the wake of modernity.

>>18596177
>Socialism itself was a response to capital’s inherent destruction of all social realities that hinder it’s growth, a way to hold on to humanity in the wake of modernity.

So why are socialists consistently the most degenerate people and why do leftists overtly support the worst consequences of modernity like the liquidation of the family, gender, tradition, religion, and community?

>>18595210
>marxist ethics

>>18596209
>So why are socialists consistently the most degenerate people
Was there such kind of """degeneracy""" in USSR? The people you're talking about are bunch of western liberals larping as communists.

>>18596177
>For the third time, Marx does not write about ethics at all
Which does not mean, that his writings do not contain ethical component, moron. The fact that Marx equivocates the True Objective Morality with "the Dialectics/God/Gnon said so! It's objective!" does not mean that it is really objective and necessary.

>capital necessarily becomes more social
You pay moneys because everyone believes in money, credit and debt. The need to always return your debts is a moral question. Therefore, social is moral.
Which means that either Marx is an imbecile because claiming that social/moral/"virtual" reality is material reality, or that Marx is a charlatan because hiding a moral component in an essentially moral sphere.
Which means that you a retard as well, because you fap to such a retarded guru.

>>18596209
I won’t deny most of them are retarded as fuck. Most “socialists” of the kind you are referring to are just edgy radlibs to whom Marxism is almost a form of satanism (I hate my republican mom and dad, so I’ll be the edgiest democrat possible!)but I understand we’ve past a point where they now are the ones giving meaning to what communism and socialism are in reality. It’s disappointing but I suppose all that can be done is to constantly show these people how retarded they sound if you genuinely try engaging with marx’s ideas and the history of socialist/communist thought as a whole.

>>18596233
>The people you're talking about are bunch of western liberals larping as communists.

this is one of the most obnoxious copes i hear of today. i'm not denying that leftists today serve the interests of liberalism but they are still absolutely leftists at the end of the day, and fully brand themselves with revolution and socialism. this is what leftism is now and you cannot separate bourgeois decadence from it. if given the option of choosing chinese socialism or western leftism, most of the world will choose western leftism and all the capitalist excess that comes with it, because pride parades are more important to people than labor rights in the 21st century. t

>>18596261
Yes bro, all US Republicans are fascists. All US democrats are communists. We have solved the mystery, let's go home now.

>>18596233
>Was there such kind of """degeneracy""" in USSR?
USSR is an overgrown capitalist monopoly.

test

>>18596287
Now compare it Western states. Compare post-USSR countries with USSR and tell which system was more """degenerate"""?

>>18596240
Man is a social animal and his interactions with society produce social reality. Marx does not hide this anywhere. And yet humans themselves are material. Human activity IS material whether you like it or not. I think actually reading Marx may help.

>>18596332
>Man is a social animal and his interactions with society produce social reality.
And your social reality depends on unknown random factors.
If a talking head on the news suddenly announces asteroid falling, your reality drastically changes. Even if there actually were no asteroid falling risk (computation error, insanity, etc.).
If a talking head on the news suddenly announces hyperinflation, your reality drastically changes...

>And yet humans themselves are material
And yet "materiality" is an undefinable linguistic abstraction made in the presence of unprecedented uncertainty. You don't know whether asteroid is really falling, or a talking head is bullshitting you.

>Human activity IS material
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokémon_Go
"Pokemon GO" on your phone IS material. Therefore, pokemons are real, ok.

>>18596177
Not the guy you're replying to but did you actually watch the video? Woods addresses your point specifically. I think the gist of his argument was that Marx and Marxists use moralistic language to condemn capitalism and its excesses despite being materialists who view morality as essentially a spook of Bourgeois social relations.

>>18596261
>this is a cope because...
>they call themselves leftists
KEK nice

>>18595210
nice spooks nerds

>>18596398
Of course materiality is a linguistic abstraction, and yet it’s given meaning by what it represents in common social reality. And yes, social reality is created by random factors outside of your subjective control. If you mean to say that a prediction of where society will move based on how it is organized in a (sorry but no better word here) material sense, I suppose I would have to disagree. Pokémon don’t become real just because people are walking down the street playing it, but the humans playing it are a real social force that would not exist without the game.

>actually existing leftists aren't REAL leftists because

>>18596436
I admit I didn’t watch the video but I don’t really disagree with that sentiment at least how you’ve expressed it. Marx was attempting to create a mass political movement, which often requires people to be persuaded on moral grounds, but as far as his analysis of social movement and more specifically his criticism of capitalism go I don’t see much moralistic sentiment behind it.

>>18596527
Yeah I hate that shit too, if you’re gonna be a communist at least admit what the left is in material reality (at least here in the west) even if it sucks and you hate it. Sure try and change it but don’t pretend they’re just the fake left when you’re “real left” is nowhere to be found outside of China

A system that requires theft cannot be said to have ethics

>>18596177
He started with the moral obligation idea, in the tradition of the enlightenment ideals before him, and then he switched to the material reality justification to make his initial premises seem more objective.

>>18596539
i'm a leftist and i hate western leftists.

>>18596209
Because the destruction of these things is necessary in the face of capitalism, these social relations are held as a veil between people to confuse relationships between material and between true social actors. The destruction of the family unit does not only destroy the family unit, but it also wipes away homosexuality as well. In a sense, the destruction of any thing is also the destruction of its opposite. To destroy homosexuality, likewise, would be the destruction of homosexuality as well. In the creation of capitalism the remnants of these social relations from past society remain, but in its face they will be wiped away and relationships created as pure rather than on the basis of their opposite.

>>18596549
would be the destruction of heterosexuality as well*

>>18596528
>more specifically his criticism of capitalism go I don’t see much moralistic sentiment behind it.
how can you honestly say this with a straight face? Have you read the Condition of the Working Class in England? Have you read the Communist Manifesto? Really????

Do yourself a favour and watch the video? Woods literally addresses your point.

>>18596572
Condition of the Working Class in England is by Engels. It talks about objective conditions of living that the working class in England were subjected to as a result of industry (sickness, poverty, injury, etc.) of course he will spin these things morally to win over the reader, but they are still objective conditions. If you want to argue that poverty or hunger or whatever is not objective that is fine but I would have to disagree. The communist manifesto was a pamphlet aimed at getting normal people who don’t read political theory involved in a mass political movement, so again, yes he writes using morals to convince the reader to take seriously his analysis of how production being organized in such a way fails the majority of people. I would recommend reading Capital if you would like a more substantive analysis of capitalism as a system rather than aimed at the establishment of a political movement. I will definitely check out the video though.

>>18596261
>i'm not denying that leftists today serve the interests of liberalism but they are still absolutely leftists at the end of the day, and fully brand themselves with revolution and socialism
yes, they impersonate socialism in order to undermine socialism. they pretend they're revolutionary while being conservative in order to mislead genuine revolutionary elements into conservative action. this play is over a century old now.
>this is what leftism is now and you cannot separate bourgeois decadence from it.
yes

>>18596436
morality is a reflection of class interests, so you can use language with moral connotations to refer to violations of those interests and not to some transcendent morality. there's zero contradiction here. that's why Engels talks about "proletarian morality" in Anti-Dühring.
but even putting that aside, moral language can be used simply to paint a more vivid picture, and nothing more. if we for example read in Capital:
>Here we have disregarded the vicissitudes of circulation, in which one capitalist seizes for himself a piece of another’s surplus-value, and even of his capital, and there is therefore a one-sided accumulation and centralization of both money capital and productive capital. A part of the EXTORTED surplus-value that A stores up as money capital may thus be a fragment of B’s surplus-value that has failed to return to him.
then it would be utterly retarded to insist based on him using the word "extortion" that Marx was morally opposed to centralization of capital through one capital appropriating a part of the suprlus-value of another.

>>18596527
>>18596539
they are the real left. the real left is the vanguard of bourgeois conservation. that's the material reality, yes.

>>18596541
ethics are the thing that keeps capitalism intact. individuals internalize the requirements of the functioning of capitalism as their personal ethical convictions, which basically results in a prison where like only one guard is needed because the prisoners watch themselves for the most part.

>>18596527
I agree that this argument is cope, yet I would hold up commies as a model of non degeneracy when compared with other extreme ideologies, e.g. libertarians.

>>18596636
There isn't a definite distinct bourgeois and proletarian morality in general. The bourgeoisie are markedly more economically right wing than the general public but are split on everything else like the rest of us.

You're calling dedicated leftists crypto-liberals because you disagree with their praxis. Now if you already subscribe to your peculiar form of Marxist thought, of course this may make sense. Just like how it's reasonable to call you a Strasserist NazBol from their perspective. From the outside you're both just leftists.

>>18596686
It not even that they are cryptolibs, but that there own understanding of Marx is so mangled and distorted that it is virtually indistinguishable from liberalism. You are right that the general public see them all as just “left” though.

>>18596647
>>18596636
>>18596539
>>18596527
>liberals who call themselves leftists because ARE leftists because... THEY ARE

>>18596509
>Of course materiality is a linguistic abstraction
Which renders it to "uncertain undefinable shit". Which renders the whole problematic to "Noooo, my claim of truth is really true, not yours!11"

>Pokémon don’t become real just because people are walking down the street playing it
And I claim that ideas are material too. Meaning, morality claims are affecting human behavior. Just like any audial signal about a predator in the bushes would (whether, a predator is really there or not).
Meaning, you can shove your modes of production in your ass.

>it’s given meaning by what it represents in common social reality
You have no idea what "material" really is. You have no idea whether different people perceive social reality similarly. People disagree on what "good"/"bad" is, people disagree whether labor was productive or not.

>humans playing it are a real social force
Humans are "materially" just a bunch of atoms. Whom you interpret to be a social force.
>Pokémon don’t become real
Society did not become real, just because Marx perceived meat blobs to have meaning.
>humans playing it are a real
Humans do not exist. Deal with it.

>>18596714
Even Robin DiAngelo wants to dismantle capitalism. Sure, they're vague about what to replace it with, but so are all Marxists. It doesn't take a genius to suggest the state could just manage the whole economy in the meantime. What are they missing exactly?

>>18596720

>>18595210
Another banger from /ourguy/

>>18596742
>liberals who stand for that which exist and reject changes are the same as leftists who reject subservience and reconciliation to it
>heh.. looks like you've fallen into the same old fallacies as always bud
KEK

>>18596686
>There isn't a definite distinct bourgeois and proletarian morality in general.
a bourgeois and a class-conscious proletarian are generally going to have some characteristic distinct moral beliefs. of course, Engels himself confirms that there are broad commonalities:
>But nevertheless there is great deal which the three moral theories mentioned above [feudal, bourgeois and proletarian] have in common — is this not at least a portion of a morality which is fixed once and for all? — These moral theories represent three different stages of the same historical development, have therefore a common historical background, and for that reason alone they necessarily have much in common. Even more. At similar or approximately similar stages of economic development moral theories must of necessity be more or less in agreement. From the moment when private ownership of movable property developed, all societies in which this private ownership existed had to have this moral injunction in common: Thou shalt not steal.

>>18596686
>You're calling dedicated leftists crypto-liberals because you disagree with their praxis.
their praxis being the conservation of bourgeois society, yes I am.
>Just like how it's reasonable to call you a Strasserist NazBol from their perspective.
if you're allowed to start from an unreasonable perspective, then you can trivially find a way to call anything reasonable
>From the outside you're both just leftists.
I'm the one speaking from the outside. you're inside bourgeois ideology. from the outside, leftists play a similar role to fascists in that they fight to preserve capitalism while pretending to transcend it. their job is to capture the progressive-bourgeois elements, while the moderate libs and cons represent the conservative-bourgeois ones.

>>18596736
>Even Robin DiAngelo wants to dismantle capitalism
that's only relevant if it's established that her conception of capitalism and what it means to dismantle it correspond to reality. and that she doesn't act contrary to this declared goal. otherwise those are just empty words
>It doesn't take a genius to suggest the state could just manage the whole economy in the meantime.
if your aim is genuinely for the proletariat to overpower the bourgeoisie, then it's not very wise to agitate in favor of the bourgeois state concentrating more power into its hands.

>>18596812
They do ask for deep structural changes up to and including overthrowing capitalism. If anyone's LARPing here it's autists like you who jerk off into the pages of history and do nothing.

>>18596837
>They do ask for deep structural changes up to and including overthrowing capitalism.
>western leftism and all the capitalist excess that comes with it, because pride parades are more important to people than labor rights in the 21st century.
pick one retard KEK

>>18595244
? Keith Woods definitely isn't like that. He agrees with some of Marx's concepts and critiques others.

>>18595210
Keith I like you(since this is probably a shill post) but that video "25 thinkers of the right" was literally retarded. And you need to stop just staring directly into the camera desu it's kind of creepy. I will check this out later though.

>>18596837
>They do ask for deep structural changes up to and including overthrowing capitalism.
yes, overthrowing capitalism is at the 63rd place in the priority list. right after conquering the right to equal representation in corporate boards for Two-Spirited folk.

>>18596822
>the bourgeois and proletarian moralities have much in common
So much in fact, they're indistinguishable except on economics. Unless you can tease out the differences for me.
>you're inside bourgeois ideology
Bullshit, I'm quite economically far left myself. Just not a god damn Marx cultist.
>if your aim is genuinely for the proletariat to overpower the bourgeoisie, then it's not very wise to agitate in favor of the bourgeois state concentrating more power into its hands.
Lol, what do you think a dictatorship of the proletariat entails? You people act like you're more in tune with Marx than the actual revolutionaries of the 20th century who actually did something when you're academic theoreticians with an opinion at best. Robin DiAngelo is working against a perceived structure and hierarchy of oppression. I'm sorry but that's leftism. It's dishonest to turn around and say they're faking it just because you think your praxis (Of what? Shitposting in a right wing space?) is superior.

>>18596822
>they fight to preserve capitalism
Prove that Marx-era single factory owners and modern day transnational corporations are the same phenomenon, imbecile.

>you're inside bourgeois ideology
Prove that bourgeois society exists.

>>18596852
>the ones in the streets getting things done are LARPing!!!
>he hasn't joined Naxalites, Rojava, comrades in Phillipines etc
Hrmmm

>>18596822
>I'm the one speaking from the outside.
Bullshit. In order to appeal to the proletariat you must be in the same position, ie inside.

>>18596822
>a bourgeois and a class-conscious proletarian
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/book-review-fussell-on-class

>>18596931
>the ones in the streets getting things done are LARPing!!!
>electing biden is praxis
KEK i rest my case

>>18595210
This guy literally self identifies as a “neoliberal”, why would I take his opinion on ethics and especially any Marxist teleology seriously?

>>18596975
No he doesn't, wtf are you talking about? He calls himself a third positionist.

>>18596975
What? I thought he was a trad guy

>>18596900
You have actual brain damage if you think Robin Di Angelo is anything other than a corporate grifter who gives culture war bait for reactionaries. Holy shit are you coming here because you got laughed off Twitter by dirtbag lefties?

This is what liberals do. They say “I’m actually far left” and then identify as being against every left tenant while promoting bourgeois morality

>>18596975
lol where did you get that from? he's third positionist

>>18596917
>single factory owners

small business owners have never existed and if you do any amount of research you’d know the mercantile class of both eras are an extremely small monopoly pool

>>18596965
They're doing a lot more than that, sure they may be hypocrites at the end of the day but so are you. At best you're selling newspapers. I doubt you're even in a union.

>>18597003
>has to strawman to satisfy himself
the absolute state of being you KEK

>>18597003
also, this is finally an admission to the fact that liberals =/= leftists
KEKing hard rn bros

>>18597009
How is it a strawman? Everyone knows what Western Marxists are like. You haven't said what you're actually doing yet.

>>18595210
Is anyone else really sick of these pseud YouTube essayists

>>18596900
>So much in fact, they're indistinguishable except on economics.
they're indistinguishable except where they can be distinguished. incredible. what the fuck do you expect? the differences derive from different class interests, and those are "economic". do you expect that they'll differ in their outlook on veganism? I mean, they actually they do, but only to an extent: it's not in some absolute class interest of the bourgeoisie to push veganism, but it's mostly them and the petty bourgeois who have time for that shit.
>Bullshit
well, if you aren't a Marxist, then there aren't really any other possibilities. it's not like there are genuine reactionaries left besides some very extreme larpers.
>Lol, what do you think a dictatorship of the proletariat entails?
of conquering political power and smashing the bourgeois state. and the stronger the state machine, the harder those task will be.
>You people act like you're more in tune with Marx than the actual revolutionaries of the 20th century who actually did something
no, I'm completely in line with Lenin.
>when you're academic theoreticians with an opinion at best. Robin DiAngelo is...
a fucking PhD in humanities! are you trolling now?
>working against a perceived structure and hierarchy of oppression. I'm sorry but that's leftism.
yes, you're damn right that's leftism
>It's dishonest to turn around and say they're faking it
they aren't, I think they're honestly leftist. to fake it they would have to correctly comprehend a thing or two, but that is something practically unachievable when you're blessed with university education. Engels described it succintly:
>the importunate, educated small-Alecks whose superior knowledge of a subject is always in the inverse proportion of their understanding of it.

>>18596917
>Prove that bourgeois society exists.
thanks a bunch for immediately ousting yourself as the "everything is a spook" guy, because otherwise I might've engaged with your first question and some wasted time.

>>18596233
Don't know about the USSR. But didn't Marx advocate for the abolition of the family and for a "ruthless critque of all existing things"? Marx was no traditionalist. He argued that capitalism was rapidly subverting older traditional forms, but did not necessarily see this as a bad thing but an opportunity.

>>18597057
The abolition of the bourgeois family, not family itself.

>>18596436
>>18596436
Yeah seems like Marx wanted to have his cake and eat it. Simultaneously arguing that morality derives from who controls power/the means of production--i.e as an historically contingent social product--and in the next insisting on the immorality of capitalism. Like arguing for relativism and moral realism at the same time.

>>18597057
HAHA no he did not. He said capitalism eroded a lot of family relationships, which they do. They turn them into a bourgeois family. Engels wrote some pro woman shit once, is that what you’re thinking of?

>>18597046
>How is it a strawman?
>You haven't said what you're actually doing yet.
fucking KEK

>>18597104
You’re thinking of this in terms of some sort of abstracted opinion. Marx’s thesis that morality derives from those in power is apart of that same statement, not a contradiction of two separate ones.

Keith Woods?

We need to hear what Mike Ma thinks of this.

>>18597104
you can affirm moral relativism and then say that something is immoral according to one of the moralities. this is not a problem for Marx, because he doesn't believe social transformation will come about by the normative force of some objective morality winning over other "wrong" moralities, but by a clash of material interests engendered by the capitalist mode of production. the different moralities are only ideological expressions of those different interests.

>>18596209
>why do leftists overtly support the worst consequences of modernity like the liquidation of the family, gender, tradition, religion, and community?
Imagine thinking that commodity leftists have anything to do with Marx. Imagine thinking that it is not Capitalism, and particularly competition on the wage labor market (women must work in order to lower the wages), which is mostly responsible for the liquidation of family. Regarding tradition, it's not even the jewish medias, which destroyed this. People, going to supermarket, Mcdonald, Hollywood movies, watching MTV music clips, have done this themselves. Capitalistic consumerism.

>>18597057
Engels, which was even more progressive than Marx, said in socialism, utopian and scientific, that Capitalism is responsible for the demise of the patriarcal family, in a negative tone.
You should read a little, not only watching Bitchute vids, and stopping at the communist manifesto.

>>18597055
>defending animal enterprise
Repulsive. You got stats to back that up?

>>18597104
>>18597151
in a way, however, the proletarian morality will be ""proven correct"" in practice through the practical victory of the proletarian dictatorship over the enemy classes. but it doesn't really help in any way to consider things in that way. at that point we're basically in the territory of worthless ethical philosophy

>>18597197
he spoke in a negative AND a positive tone about every historical transformation. e.g.:
>Monogamous marriage comes on the scene as the subjugation of the one sex by the other, as the proclamation of a conflict between the sexes unknown throughout the whole previous historic period.... Monogamous marriage was a great historical step forward; nevertheless, together with slavery and private wealth, it opened the epoch that has lasted until today in which every step forward is also relatively a step backward, in which prosperity and development for some is won through the misery and frustration of others.
he simply can't be read like one would read a typical bourgeois moralizer of history, because that's going to completely miss the point of the materialist understanding of it.

>>18597151
You're right my bad was writing sloppily. There'd only be a contradiction if the marxist is using good vs. bad in a way which implies their own moral statement is universally true. I still feel like this undermines the bedrock of their own critique, even if there's no contradiction.

>>18597197
I have read Marx. Not about to claim Marx would exactly be at home among modern progressives, but I don't think he's exactly a clear traditionalist either. His thought can be incorporated into a more communalist conservatism but isn't inherently conservative.
And while Marx writes that capitalism is already eroding the fabric of the family, it's not clear to me that he necessarily sees Capitalism's tendency to erode at traditional forms as a bad thing but rather as an opportunity.

>>18596209
>Capitalism rips up the social fabric
>Still manages to blame it on Socialism

>>18595331
No he became a materialist like in 1840's.

If most leftists “aren’t real Marxists” then they need to answer for why they even bother to brand themselves as Marxists or communists. Why does every Millennial and Zoomer in America call themselves a communist when they have absolutely nothing to do with it? They don’t even support China, they’ll in fact claim that China “isn’t real socialism” or call them authoritarian. Fundamentally they are closer to liberalism but with a more leftist and progressive slant, but why don’t they just call themselves that? Why do leftists still cling to Marx when they hardly care for economics anymore?

Conservatives are idiots for being intimidated by communism but leftists deliberately obfuscate their movement to seem more radical, when in reality it just alienates more of the working class and irreparably divides society with their focus on identity politics. It’s absolutely fucking baffling, they’re never gonna get anything done, all of they’ve accomplished is get a bunch of people to protest (which does nothing) and adopt leftist politics on social media which also does nothing since they aren’t institutionally changing things. If all you want is a more diverse and progressive Liberalism, then admit it. It’s not fucking hard.

>>18597055
>thanks a bunch for immediately ousting yourself as the "everything is a spook" guy,
One moment you shriek "Morality is a spook! Praise materiality", the next moment you start shrieking "My spooks ain't no spooks!". Have some consistency, clown.

>>18597353
And then a historical materialist in the 1850s

>>18597353
I am talking about woods

>>18599093
that's not comparable. I affirm that morality exists and I explain what it is, even in this thread (multiple times). the spooktards just say "labour doesn't exist", "bourgeois society doesn't exist", "color blue doesn't exist" and act like 12 year old who's just discovered solipsism on reddit.

>>18597670
>They don’t even support China
In my brief experience online, a surprising number of zoomers want little more than to bow before Xi and worship him. Granted it is almost entirely memes made by 14 year olds on r/genzedong or some shit and very little actual political discussion.

>>18599290
"Bourgeois" IS a Marxist spook though, it became a meaningless epithet.

>>18599347
the meaning can change depending on the context, but it's not meaningless by any means, except when used randomly by some pseudo-Marxist leftoid

>>18599290
>I affirm that morality exists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_fusion_threshold

It exists the way films exist. From your eyes INability to differentiate frames at a certain rate. These things are grounded in UNknowing.

Everything "social" stems from ignorance. Because furless apes exaptated their Type I False Positive Error ("There is a predator in bushes!" - "Maybe you are mistaken?" - "Fuck it, too costly to double-check! Assume there is!") into something productive.
But it works solely when everyone perceives similarly, fucks up similarly, ignores similarly - and knowledge of the things you are expected not to know (even, not to know that you are not knowing them), is like an acid here.

>labour doesn't exist
It doesn't. "Labour" is same fictional metaphysical shit as "Honour" or "Insidiousness". Unlike science that always deliver, this shit arbitrary. Virtual.

>>18599466
take your meds

>>18595244
you're an idiot, keith doesn't do that
>>18595265
see >>18595269
>>18595272
>>18595310
you're both spergs and retards. marxism is a tiny portion of late marx's works, and then a much larger portion of additions and revisions over the next half century. no "marxist" today holds to all the stuff Marx said before 1845 AND everything after, that'd be absurd.
marxism exists on its own and retards like you are the ones who continue the "tradition," they don't refer back to Marx as a founding source or something.
>>18596177
every political document is writing about ethics, this screed makes no sense.
>>18596233
yeah, the USSR was degenerate. Lenin legalized homosexuality, Stalin attacked the church. you can't be le bhaysed leftist while supporting any of the actual left-wing gov'ts from the 20th century, they're all gay.
>>18596332
"material things are social things!"
you found the most retarded part of marxism on accident in ur poast and ur not even smart enough to recognize that it's a problem.
>>18596257
all leftism is liberalism.
>>18596301
obviously russia's less degenerate than the USSR.
>>18596509
>materiality is a linguistic abstraction, and yet it’s given meaning by what it represents in common social reality
and as you said before, sociality is material, right? so materiality is given meaning by what it represents in material reality.
and if i ask what material reality is, it'll have to be given meaning by material reality.
meaning that your knowledge of it has to come from somewhere else (there's no dictum in a recursive statement like "material reality is grounded in material reality")
which is your social being, which isn't material.
>>18596541
you are a RETARD
>>18596553
>these social relations are held as a veil between people to confuse relationships between material and between true social actors
this is the kind of incoherent bullshit you can accept when you believe that social things reduce down to material things (thank God we can disprove this by reductio!)

>>18599466
see >>18599519

>>18599519
>>18599865
No valid counter-arguments, then? Okay, enjoy your butthurt.

>>18599856
>all leftism is liberalism.
someone had to say it

>>18599856
>animetard
>calling other people degenerate
Notice how the most depraved corners of the internet are always the most thoroughly infected with moralists! You will, without doubt, find the strongest outbursts of offended moral feeling on /d/ and /y/ and /aco/ and all the other boards and threads catering to savage and delinquent tastes. The man in the pornographic state of mind, the most subjective and dictatorial state of mind, wants to impose his own preferences upon others, whether they be sensual or aesthetic or political—sexual arousal engenders a rapacious intellect. Shotacons and lolicons are particularly guilty of this. They delude themselves into thinking that because they worship rarefied, hyper-idealised, non-threatening simulacra of innocence and cuteness that they actually value those things more than other people and, what’s more, they develop such unrealistic standards that their attitude toward things that fail to meet the mark becomes patently genocidal. The weeaboo would blot out all 3D life if he could. Now this might sound based, and it might be if it occurred on any conscious level, as a deliberately chosen evil. But the fact is that the typical resident of 4chan is unconsciously conditioned by the board culture to engage in a 24-hour doublethink that allows him to indulge in amorality and hedonism and cruelty and yet also to (completely self-seriously, without the faintest trace of irony) in the very same moment stand on his soapbox and lecture others about their degeneracy; to wail about how fags or trannies or libtards or poltards—or whatever transitory stimulus happens to be causing him (self-inflicted) psychic pain at the moment—are THE one ill responsible for the coming collapse of civilisation. It is a kind of ethical schizophrenia. And it is extremely annoying and extremely tiring. A clone army of immoral moralfags. Who could’ve thought! This is the real nihilist, this is the miserable species of future man Nietzsche warned us about. In terms of unscrupulousness, the conscious egoist cannot hope to surpass the hypocrite!—Of course, you say, this is just human nature. Yes, indeed, but never has it been so potent, so highly concentrated... a maximum of degeneracy and a maximum of Puritanism in the very same creature, duplicated thousands of times, churned out in their digital hundreds. Quite the achievement!

>>18600053
validity doesn't exist

>>18600081
It doesn't. But the fact that there is no such thing as Validity, doesn't mean that you can't check statements for being valid.

>>18600097
>But the fact that
Self refutation

>>18600056
Left-wing:
-all people are equal (i.e. 1=1, i.e. replaceable)
-absolute equality (remove differences between classes, genders, etc.)
-freedom "from"

Right-wing:
-people are not equal (i.e. not replaceable, i.e. unique)
-contextual equality (being equal by one quality in one context spawns inequalitIES in others; absolute equality would imply an unending grindfest or a mere hypocrisy)
-freedom "to"

>>18600133
>-all people are equal
Wow so Christianity, Vedanta, Buddhism, Sufism and Schopenhauer are leftwinger? Fucking based and tradpill.

>>18600103
It's not. Read the picture, clown.

Also:
"What, then, are man's truths ultimately? - They are the *irrefutable* errors of man." (c) Nietzsche (Gay Science, #265)

>>18600133
Completely agree with you
>contextual equality
I like to call this "similarity"; men realize they aren't equal but join arms with their similarity: ethnic, religious, political, etc.

>>18600156
Yes. Leftism - is Christian heresy in its essence. It originated from it (pic related)


And it still is such, in its ethical component
https://theupheaval.substack.com/p/are-we-in-a-500-year-religious-revolution
The oppressed are good, because they are are victims of oppression.
Meaning, if you are not oppressed, then you are not good. Meaning, people seek the reasons to feel oppressed.
Hence, intersectionality.

>>18600133
>some people cleverer and more swole than me
>therefore they should enslave me as is only natural
Is this the power of right wing ethics

>>18600073
>calling people animetards on the internet's underwater mongolian basketweaving forum
how new can someone get?
you poast like a 13 year old with a cursory knowledge of how intelligent prose is written, trying to mimic it.

>>18600176
All men the children of God, Vedanta says we're all Brahman if we take away the illusion of self, Buddhism says Ego is an illusion and the source of suffering, Sufism say everything is God, Schopenhauer says all is one underneath the representation. This is the esoteric message of all philosophies. Our essence is one and to achieve wisdom we need to look beyond the illusion of petty material differences that ignorant people like you adore.

Left wingers are based if they have a message of compassion while you pseudo-pagans preach war and celebrate violence.

>>18596177
>Socialism itself was a response to capital’s inherent destruction of all social realities that hinder it’s growth, a way to hold on to humanity in the wake of modernity
This is an ethical/moral stance, retard.

>>18600186
but that's not natural. sociality, not (solely) materiality is natural.
granted, i'm a hylozoist; the social and material aspects of humanity are only formally, not really, distinct (if marxists weren't such philosophical charlatans, i think they'd agree with this)
so even if you're materially powerful (swole and /fit/), you need social-power (différance capabilities) to be actually powerful.

>>18600186
"The second foundation is the idea, previously upheld by Plato, that those who cannot be their own masters should find a master outside of themselves, since practicing the discipline of obeying should teach these people how to master their own selves; thus, through loyalty to those who present themselves as the representatives of an idea and as the living approximations to a higher human type, they will remain as faithful as possible to their best nature. <...> It is the inferior who needs the superior, and not the other way around. The inferior never lives a fuller life than when he feels his existence is subsumed in a greater order endowed with a center;" (c) Evola, "Men among the Ruins"

>>18595265
He clearly used moral indignation in his work.

>>18595210
'm not a communist but I think he made some very good observations and I sit and wonder how he was the only person to notice these things

>>18600156
>Christianity
The Roman Catholic Church has formally opposed radical egalitarianism and has stated that the differences between men and women are not merely phenomenal, but are in fact ontological in nature.[24]
>Vedanta
They literally have castes
I can't speak for the other two
>>18600186
There should be castes with a few elements of meritocracy, yes. Most people are slaves by nature, while others are slaves solely by law or convention.
>those who are as different [from other men] as the soul from the body or man from beast—and they are in this state if their work is the use of the body, and if this is the best that can come from them—are slaves by nature. For them it is better to be ruled in accordance with this sort of rule, if such is the case for the other things mentioned.
Essentially the Shudra Caste. I can expand on this if you want to
>>18600205
>Left wingers are based if they have a message of compassion
you have to be kiding me, you can't be this retarded
>while you pseudo-pagans preach war and celebrate violence.
Violence and conflict are the necessary for the assertion of authority

>>18596528
>Marx was attempting to create a mass political movement
which shows he though it was an ethical thing to do

>>18600205
>This is the esoteric message of all philosophies. Our essence is one
Meaning, that when you dispute the human rights (grounded in everybody having the same magical essence), you are considered to be an adversary, placed outside of humanity

>>18600223
rightists of the past upheld slavery as natural and desirable with the same exact argument. Marx in no way disbelieved in the natural inequalities between people's abilities if you actually read him.

>>18600279
>rightists of the past upheld slavery as natural and desirable with the same exact argument
we do now too, what's the point? slavery is natural and desirable.
>Marx in no way disbelieved in the natural inequalities between people's abilities if you actually read him
i know he didn't, i didn't say he did. i'm not the person you were originally replying to.

>>18600231
> the slave needs the master not vice versa
Woah. Is the rest of Evola this retarded?

>>18600279
>upheld slavery as natural
Someone is Communist Party's General Secretary. And someone is a cuck. You cannot get rid of hierarchy.

>>18600287
>> the slave needs the master not vice versa
"Not that I on that account upbraid them: but serving ones do they remain, and harnessed ones, even though they glitter in golden harness.
And often have they been good servants and worthy of their hire. For thus saith virtue: “If thou must be a servant, seek him unto whom thy service is most useful!
The spirit and virtue of thy master shall advance by thou being his servant: thus wilt thou thyself advance with his spirit and virtue!”
And verily, ye famous wise ones, ye servants of the people! Ye yourselves have advanced with the people’s spirit and virtue—and the people by you! To your honour do I say it!" (c) Nietzsche

"And this heard I secondly: Whatever cannot obey itself, is commanded. Such is the nature of living things.
This, however, is the third thing which I heard—namely, that commanding is more difficult than obeying. And not only because the commander beareth the burden of all obeyers, and because this burden readily crusheth him:—
An attempt and a risk seemed all commanding unto me; and whenever it commandeth, the living thing risketh itself thereby." (c) Nietzsche

"Wherever I found a living thing, there found I Will to Power; and even in the will of the servant found I the will to be master.
That to the stronger the weaker shall serve—thereto persuadeth he his will who would be master over a still weaker one. That delight alone he is unwilling to forego.
And as the lesser surrendereth himself to the greater that he may have delight and power over the least of all, so doth even the greatest surrender himself, and staketh—life, for the sake of power.
It is the surrender of the greatest to run risk and danger, and play dice for death.
And where there is sacrifice and service and love-glances, there also is the will to be master. By by-ways doth the weaker then slink into the fortress, and into the heart of the mightier one—and there stealeth power." (c) Nietzsche

>>18600289
anarchist societies have existed briefly until statists steamrolled them. There's no law of nature saying we need a pyramidal power structure.
>>18600282
Not that many rightists today are pro slavery. I guess you're one of the few that isn't hypocritical.

>>18595210
>Marxism.
Crude and Victorian neo Hegelian empiricists with material written for them by the Prussian ministry of the interior as a subversion tool based on a simplified understanding of 19th century industrial production don't really matter. Unless perhaps, you are trying to crash a rival 19th century European power by creating social unrest and unify the German speaking people under Bismarck. A very successful ploy as demonstrated by the Paris commune. At which point Karl Marx wrote that he must leave Paris before the French realised he was a spy. Then we also have the Kaiser and Prussian ministry knocking Russia out of WW1 using the same material, Lenin and a train stuffed full of forged rubles with a free printing press. Marx is a dead lie, from a lost civilisation, for forgotten wars, in forgotten places .Another example of Marxism as a Prussian subversion mechanism is the Irish-Scots Marxist James Connolly in Ireland who actively traded arms for reports on shipping to pass to the Germans who at that point were actually Prussians.James Connolly was also responsible for the timing of the Easter 1916 rising with the launch of the Somme offensive in which Irish regiments were participating. Should we revert to Marx and his death in London? Why was he there? Should we look we will see that Marx is involved with the Great Game between Russia and Britain over Afghanistan.This leads to an obsessive rivalry between Russia and Britain which of course benefits Prussian Germany.

>>18600279
>Marx in no way disbelieved in the natural inequalities between people's abilities if you actually read him.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm
>But one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement. This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor. It recognizes no class differences, because everyone is only a worker like everyone else; but it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment, and thus productive capacity, as a natural privilege. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right. Right, by its very nature, can consist only in the application of an equal standard; but unequal individuals (and they would not be different individuals if they were not unequal) are measurable only by an equal standard insofar as they are brought under an equal point of view, are taken from one definite side only – for instance, in the present case, are regarded only as workers and nothing more is seen in them, everything else being ignored. Further, one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Thus, with an equal performance of labor, and hence an equal in the social consumption fund, one will in fact receive more than another, one will be richer than another, and so on. To avoid all these defects, right, instead of being equal, would have to be unequal.
And you might think "oh wow, anon is agreeing with me"; but it's the next part which is interesting:
>But these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society. Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby.
Not only does he see inequality as a "defect", but:
>In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!
>>18600289
I still don't get how Marxists cope with hierarchies of power.

>>18595210
Naturally both Stalin and Hitler were aware of the true nature of Marxism. After all, Stalin had murdered Lenin when he realised he was a Prussian agent during the Polish-Soviet war.Hitler knew as soon as he ascended to sit with Prussians. There was cooperation between Soviet Russia and Hitlers Germany in weapons development and considering their opposing ideologies it is easy to understand why the world was shocked then they became allies during their division of Poland. We however are not shocked. The evidence is long gone. Burned in Berlin during its downfall. The participants are long dead. Prussia has effectively been wiped from history, the USSR is fading into history. Yet this cargo cult of simpletons still cling to Marx. What can modern Marxists say about their cults origins as a component of Prussian military, diplomatic and subversion methodology?The ancestry of Marxism can be traced even further back to the era of Bismarks sharpest actions. Now we are before even the Danish war of 1864, to the very unification of the southern German kingdoms under Prussian rule. Bismark utilised very similar subversion tactics based on 'class' division and inciting antagonism but rather than Marxism, it was Germanic nationalism. Germanic nationalism ruled by Prussia. Bismark employed the same tactic in southern Denmark prior to commencing war against the Danes, playing on linguistic divisions. So Marx and his cult are a legacy of Bismark. I think Bismark would be delighted with that. The post Stalin USSR had the most rotten of all cores, the men who knew Stalin had murdered Lenin, the tiny knot of survivors from Stalins purges, who understood Marxism was simply a subversion strategy Prussian Germany had played on Tsarist Russia. They carried on and with the deepest cynicism and even used Marxism to subvert more nations under their rule and developed networks of 'useful idiots' in competing empires. Is that what modern Marxists are? Is that the dank underworld that spawns them are they the offspring of useful idiots?

>>18600323
because most rightists are liberals (like all leftists are)

>>18600323
>. There's no law of nature saying we need a pyramidal power structure.
Yes there is. It is called children. Authority falls to adults. This mechanism of youth and age as Bacon referred to generations is a hierarchy dictated by natural law that exists in a vast array of mammals. Man recognises God as being the apex of this hierarchy

>>18600323
>anarchist societies have existed briefly until statists steamrolled them.
HAHAHAH like Makhnovia, Catalonia, Israeli Kibbutzim?? This are actual copes from an-caps who can't see that the will to power will topple their fantasies
>>18600332
agreed, many don't want castes with meritocratic elements
>>18600337
also the Pareto principle:
>The 80-20 rule, also known as the Pareto Principle, is an aphorism which asserts that 80% of outcomes (or outputs) result from 20% of all causes (or inputs)

>>18600337
You consider yourself a child in comparison to your boss and politicians? Nothing says we must reprodude the family in all social relations either, that's just as nonsensical as believing you should be dominated by someone just because he's an IQ point higher. Secular societies, not theocracies, are the most successful of all time.

>>18600343
Will to power can be managed, it's not a metaphysical principle underlying everything as Nietzsche would have it.

>>18595210
This entire post is retarded, and so are you OP.

>>18600357
>Will to power can be managed
BY SOMEONE WITH EVEN MORE POWER? HAHAHAHA, TOUCH GRASS ANNARKIDDIE

>>18600348
I have no 'boss' and in relation to politicians that are 20 years my senior, I would certainly digress to consider their opinions on events that had occurred before my birth. Are you the youthful rebel shaking his fist in rage at his father. A rather tired and worthless trope to pass through existence as. From birth you are in a hierarchy by the simple fact that you cannot even feed yourself and depend on adults and that is equally true of teenagers and young adults. Humans are hierarchical if it delights you consider it similar to elephants behavior but do not doubt or attempt to refute it.

>>18600357
>Will to power can be managed,
Yes, by a given will to power.

>>18600364
You call me adolescent but you're the one taking Nietzsche as a gospel.

>>18600367
You too are no doubt disgusted with the state of things and our current elites so accusing me of aimless rebellion is a bit rich. Family isn't an arbitrary hierarchy, slavery is.

>>18600247
it doesn't. he could've also thought it to be unethical but have done it anyway or he could've not thought about his actions in terms of ethics at all but only in terms of prudential reasons

>>18600289
the communist party dissolves with the advent of communist society and all administrative tasks are rotated: there is no possibility of being a lifetime superior by career, because there are no careers. the social division of labour is buried.

besides, all the "general secretaries" and other little big men are the biggest puppets of history. they have next to no personal agency in their position, because as soon as they try to act against a larger historical process, they stop being "general secretaries" and such

>>18600326
>Not only does he see inequality as a "defect"
actually read the quote you pasted. the defect he sees is not in individual inequality as such, but in trying to apply an equal standard to unequal individuals.
>From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!
so he still acknowledges that even in a higher phase of communism people will have different abilities depending on the accidents of birth.

if we take everything together, it turns out that in fully communist society (1) people remain unequal due to the widest range of circumstances, yet (2) the "defects" of the first phase of communist society have been eliminated, because the share in the social product no longer has to be limited top-down by subjecting each individual to a one-sidedly equalizing standard (e.g., the hours of labour put in)

Engels is unequivocally clear about exactly how far the communist "egalitarianism" goes:
>the real content of the proletarian demand for equality is the demand for the abolition of classes. Any demand for equality which goes beyond that, of necessity passes into absurdity.

>I still don't get how Marxists [whatever]
my general tip is that you try actually reading them with comprehension instead of just looking at the words with a preconceived conclusion in mind. that should help tons

>>18595222
fpbp

why is this retarded thread still up after 138 replies. the jannies are real trannies.

>>18600432
>the communist party dissolves with the advent of communist society and all administrative tasks are rotated: there is no possibility of being a lifetime superior by career, because there are no careers. the social division of labour is buried.
And who will enforce such rotation? It'll just be what people do since it's socialized into them? This whole total end to division of labour is one of the least thought out and laughably utopian things in Marx.
>besides, all the "general secretaries" and other little big men are the biggest puppets of history. they have next to no personal agency in their position, because as soon as they try to act against a larger historical process, they stop being "general secretaries" and such
History isn't a demiurgic weltgeist or collection of forces that impose structure on societies. It's an account of the past, that's it.

>>18600432
>the communist party dissolves with the advent of communist society
And all the differences disappear once you actualize the Absolute, yes-yes.

"a sphere which has a universal character by its universal suffering and claims no particular right because no particular wrong, but wrong generally, is perpetuated against it <...> cannot emancipate itself without emancipating itself from all other spheres of society <...>, in a word, is the complete loss of man and hence can win itself only through the complete re-winning of man. This dissolution of society as a particular estate is the proletariat" (c) Marx

The proles are Marx's Chosen Ones, because they are perceived to be completely soulless husks, deprived of any content.
For Hegelian (and prior scholastic) thought that implied the advent of the Apocalypse. Marx instead reasoned "Hurr durr, they imbeciles, therefore communism good!"

>>18600243
>Church
Only teachings of Christ matters. No one cares about Church. Romans use to call Christianity a feminine religion for slaves and women. Early Christianity was the religion of oppressed people.

>They literally have castes
According to their Metaphysics All is One. No you or I or they. If you're hurting someone else that means you're hurting yourself. Power games of Aryans to enslave people have no relation with Vedanta.

>>18600259
You're an ignorant brute if you think that wars and violence should guide some race to conquer "lesser" races.

>>18600471
>wars and violence should
Read the picture, moron. Your justifications via total equality ARE the thing that spawns wars and violence.

>>18600480
So we all should become fascists then and start invading other countries because war must be the guiding force of humanity?

>>18597351
Contemporary socialists are the most ardent proponents of big business tearing up social fabrics.
It's more a critique of the stereotypical upper middle class failson on HRT who takes to "socialism" to get the cushy job he's been promised rather than the socialism laid out by Marx. That's the only kind of people who call themselves socialist nowadays.

>>18600202
like clockwork

>>18595210
Neat video, I've always wondered why Marxists are so insistent that they arent moralists when all they do is preach. I cant think of another group that does that

>>18600494
>because war must be the guiding force of humanity?
I once again repeat: Re-read the text. Learn to *read*, dumbfuck.

But to clarify to especially inbred imbeciles: you can have "lesser" races, only if you have an universal metric to measure their backwardness.
That means, the Metaphysics of One. "They bad! They pagans/heretics/rightists! We better! We truer to the One!"

That means, your kind is no less eager to start a war. That means, that your argument of the war-like nature of your opponent is just a pure hypocrisy.

>>18600495
>That's the only kind of people who call themselves socialist nowadays.
More like this is what you want to believe. I have seen many fascist trannies on twitter but I am not retarded to take them as the sole representation of fascism. It's like liberals saying all Altright cunts are fascists or trump is fascist.

>>18600389
ad hom; get better arguments and read right wing political philosophy
>>18600409
not the guy you're responding to
>You too are no doubt disgusted with the state of things and our current elites
yes, they hijacked the hierarchical structure through usury
>accusing me of aimless rebellion is a bit rich.
Right wingers (3rd positionists is a better term) know that power is necessary to impose their values. You want to be in a society which is pre-hierarchical (a falacy from anarchistic ontological anthropology)
>>18600432
>trying to apply an equal standard to unequal individuals.
I apologize
>people remain unequal due to the widest range of circumstances
if a man can produce more and be thus rewarded more for his labor, he would hold more resources. If he has more recourses he becomes more influencial and powerful. A time may arise when a crises happens (an earthquake, for example) he will ascend in power as to distribute the resources. And what's to stop him from having power from thereon? By then the proletariat will not have control over the means of production and the product itself. This was a very likely hypothetical example which I drafted in less than 2 minutes.
>my general tip is that you try actually reading them
please don't this shit card; explain me, otherwise you don't really know, how hierarchies work within a communist system
>>18600471
>Only teachings of Christ matters. No one cares about Church.
not really
>Christianity a feminine religion for slaves and women
yes
>Power games of Aryans to enslave people have no relation with Vedanta.
In the Bhagavad Gita
>On the extinction of a family, the eternal rites of families are destroyed 2. Those rites being destroyed, impiety predominates over the whole family 3. In consequence of the predominance of impiety, O Krishna! the women of the family become corrupt 4; and the women becoming corrupt, O descendant of Vrishni! intermingling of castes results; that intermingling necessarily leads the family and the destroyers of the family to hell; for when the ceremonies of (offering) the balls of food and water (to them) fail 5, their ancestors fall down (to hell). By these transgressions of the destroyers of families, which occasion interminglings of castes, the eternal rites of castes and rites, of families are subverted.

>>18600519
>pacificists are just as likely to start a war as jingoists because they're henologists

>>18600511
So just like fascist? Who cry about liberals stealing """their""" memes and liberal degeneracy all day.

>>18600540
>>pacificists are just as likely to start a war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_war_to_end_war

Learn some history, dimwit. That really WAS the case with the pacifists during the First World War.

>>18595210
OP the only people who are Marxists today are brainwashed moron Western millennials that got psyopped by their uni professors who had been psyopped by the KGB infilitration of Western Academia in the 60s to derail Western Civ, which it succeeded at doing and why the entire Western Hemisphere is becoming more irrelevant with every passing year. China completely owns most of Europe at this point, and the Russians are getting back on their feet. North america is in freefall and most of Western Europe is beyond the point of return, such as France which I think will never recover unless some great body of men launch a kind of Reconquista, etc.

>>18600570
>KGB infilitration of Western Academia in the 60s to derail Western Civ
Haha let's just ignore CIA funding and blame it on me ebil gommies, trad capitalists were/are tvre sons of evropean soil :DDD

>>18600545
What? Most fascists dont deny being moralists. Commies are the only group I can think of that constantly moralize while denying that theyre moralizing

>>18600587
What? Most communist dont deny being moralists. Fashies are the only group I can think of that constantly moralize while denying that theyre moralizing

>>18600580
>CIA funding
>bringing up irrelevant bunkertranny talking points about "trad capitalists" whatever the fuck that means
The CIA that was completely dominated by the KGB in the 70s and 80s? That CIA? Or the CIA in 2001 that was completely overtaken by Mossad? That CIA? America has been compromised for decades, beginning in the late 50s. Everything you believe in is astroturfed and pumped out on purpose and is now propagated by GAFAM to help push for more social control in their hands. Even zoomers figure this out when they see PewdiePie getting blacklisted on YouTube for talking about Ernst Junger while none of the Marxist talking head puppets and other globalhomo advocates get censored. It's like you want so bad to wear the garb of a revolutionary for some bizarre reason when everyone else sees you for what you are: a regime sycophantic robot. I don't even know if you're hueman, could just be an AI spamming which is common in Western journalist publications these days with AI created articles.

>>18600591
>Western Marxist actually believing Fascism exists in any relevant format in the Western Hemisphere
You are psyopped beyond the point of return maybe. Do you still have your penis and been taking hormone blockers, etc?
"We did it reddit, we got tranny contemporary money laundering "art" as an installation in Trafalgar Square, viva la revolution! (TM: Brought to you by GAFAM).

>>18600593
Hmmm so liberals are communists and Republicans are fascists. I see

>>18600605
>attempts to shift the conversation by trying to actively deny the blatant representation of old prune Marxist professors openly operating on Western university campuses
"Joey from Friends voice:" Can you get any more insincere?

>>18600599
Bro all Republicans are fascists you be a retard to think otherwise.

>>18600570
>KGB infilitration of Western Academia in the 60s
bullshit, we all know it was the CIA who funded the socially degenerate groups in '68; also don't forget the billionaires who funded Martin Negro King's Civil right's movement
>China completely owns most of Europe at this point
yup, e.g. June 2017, Antonio Costa (our Prime-minister from the Socialist Party) reppealed a motion in the EU which would prevent foreign investors from buying up stratigically important european industries and businesses; by claiming that China was a very good friend to Portugal
Also, don't mistake me for the other fag
>CIA that was completely dominated by the KGB in the 70s and 80s
Honestly I'm curious, where did you get that from?

>>18600539
>yes, they hijacked the hierarchical structure through usury
Yeah, how dare banks operate as a business, that is just so unethical and unfair!
>Right wingers (3rd positionists is a better term)
>You want to be in a society which is pre-hierarchical (a falacy from anarchistic ontological anthropology)
>Hunter-gatherers tend to have anegalitariansocial ethos,[19]although settled hunter-gatherers (for example, those inhabiting the Northwest Coast of North America) are an exception to this rule.[20][21]Nearly all African hunter-gatherers are egalitarian, with women roughly as influential and powerful as men.[22][23][24]For example, theSan peopleor "Bushmen" of southern Africa have social customs that strongly discourage hoarding and displays of authority, and encourage economic equality via sharing of food and material goods.[25]Karl Marxdefined this socio-economic system asprimitive communism.[26]
>The egalitarianism typical of human hunters and gatherers is never total, but is striking[according to whom?]when viewed in an evolutionary context. One of humanity's two closest primate relatives,chimpanzees, are anything but egalitarian, forming themselves into hierarchies that are often dominated by analpha male. So great is the contrast with human hunter-gatherers that it is widely argued by palaeoanthropologiststhat resistance to being dominated was a key factor driving the evolutionary emergence ofhuman consciousness,language,kinshipandsocial organization.

>>18600610
I was thrown out of a university classroom for mocking the professor when she said that "Neoconservatives" were Neo-Nazis cloaked in disguise. When I brought up the fact that almost all the foundational figures in the Neocon movement were """"ex-Trotskyite""" Jews, she threatened to get the Dean involved. That is the utter state of Western univresity campuses currently.

>>18600624
>CIA who funded the socially degeneate groups in '68
>completely denies the existence of KGB active measures
You're shilling. By 1968, the CIA was also heavily infilitrated by the KGB with numerous agents going rogue or double-agent.
>billionaires who funded Martin Negro King's Civil right's movement
Such as?

>Honestly I'm curious, where did you get that from?
Where to begin? Maybe Aldrich Ames?

>>18600609
The thing is bro, liberalism defeated both fascism and communism. Now we're just pissing on the corpses of past.

Liberalism proved itself to be more stronger of the two. By your stronk fascist foundations you should suck the dick of the stronger which is liberalism you no, you cry all day about lib domination.

>>18595210
can someone please explain to me why the fuck human nature isn't a valid critique of marxist sophistry?

>>18600635
>believing liberalism existed after WW2
lol

>>18595210
>Karl Marx's real name was Moses Mordecai Levy, a thirty-third degree freemason. His work was funded by the Rothschild family with the intent of destroying Western civilization.

>>18600632
I got executed by a band of liberal death squad in my university for saying that wall street capitalists funded Nazis

>>18600662
>filtered by 45 seconds joke intro

>>18600655
>believing world trade center existed before 9/11
lol

>>18600662
Good work being the most retarded person in a thread the equivalent on a special needs class.

>>18600664
>wall street capitalists funded Nazis
Except they didn't. The sales made were things regarding trucks. They sold similar items to the Soviets and in fact were selling to every European nation. You only cherry pick the Nazi thing because you're insincere and a liar and you were brainwashed by liars.

>>18600677
>entire US govt after WW2 is all based on State manufacturing with sweeping Federal acts
there was nothing liberal about the US economy prior, during, or after WW2.

>>18600686
>it's only cherry picking the other does it
Have I told you about my friend being the most wanted man by European socdems for saying that socdems collaborated with Nazis and they killed Rosa?

>>18600729
>Weimar Germany collaborated with a ideological movement that didn't exist at the time of Rosa Luxembourg's death
>completely ignores Luxembourg's involvement in attempting to overthrow the German govt to allow Soviet forces and agents to take it
man how many more lies you going to spew here, did your prof tell you that one too? lmao

>>18599856
>obviously russia's less degenerate than the USSR.
Most of the rest of your post is true but this absolutely isn't. Big cities are being flooded with Muslims(ie Chechens, Central Asians) and gay shit among the youth is popular

>>18600747
what do you think the new soviet man experiements were all about?

>>18600740
I am not talking movement which existed at that time. But later on they collaborated with nazis. Fascists also fucked old government and an Austrian man took the seat in Germany.

>>18600629
>how dare banks operate as a business
yes, banks shouldn't exist
>Nearly all African hunter-gatherers are egalitarian.
They all
have tribal chiefs; which implies hierarchy. Also, you want to get down to the level of the Negro? Laughable.
>>18600632
the CIA funded Marcuse, who's a post-modernist, not a commie
>Such as?
Council for United civil rights Leadership, which was set up by Stephen Currier and his wife Audrey Bruce Currier (both from the Melon family). Also, the Ford foundation, the Rockefeller foundation, amonf others
>Maybe Aldrich Ames?
Aldrich Ames operated between 1985–94; we're talking about '68
>>18600747
>this absolutely isn't.
I think that anon was talking about state enforcement of these social problems. homos are condemed in Modern Russia (like in the post-Lenin era) AND they support Orthodox Christianity

>>18600778
>backtracks and reverts original claim which was that the the Weimar Govt conspired with the NSDAP to assassinate Rosa Luxemborug
You just keep getting caught in lies, then trying to pilpul the argument into a new direction. Like jelly. Did your professor touch you anywhere?

>>18600450
>And who will enforce such rotation?
nobody. people will engage in it understanding it to be in their best interest
>History isn't a demiurgic weltgeist
sure, it's not a demiurgic weltgeist. I'm speaking metaphorically. history is made by humans, just not according to their personal wishes
>or collection of forces that impose structure on societies. It's an account of the past, that's it.
but it does impose structure. the socio-economic structure you were born into wasn't created ex nihilo at the time of your birth. it derives from the past. it isn't a matter of chance that all of today's "great men" are either capitalists or the executors of the interests of capital or that in the early-mid medieval period all of them were either warrior-aristocrats or churchmen. it's not a matter of personal agency but of riding a wave that you can only continue riding by continuing to aim in the general direction it leads you

>>18600495
>That's the only kind of people who call themselves socialist nowadays.
true, actual socialists have been calling themselves communists for over 100 years

>>18600539
>if a man can produce more and be thus rewarded more for his labor, he would hold more resources. If he has more recourses he becomes more influencial and powerful.
that presupposes private property. in a communist society "resources" aren't held by individuals, but by society.
>A time may arise when a crises happens (an earthquake, for example)
the existing technical basis for communism is too great to fall into crisis because of an earthquake. if the remaining question is: can a communist society break down due to some more potent natural disaster, like some epic supervolcano, then the answer is: possibly. but nothing relevant follows from this.
>explain me, otherwise you don't really know, how hierarchies work within a communist system
that's an empty question. I have no idea what meaning is attached to the abstraction "hierarchies" in your head and what you suppose it means for them to "work" in a "system", and to be honest I don't really care: I was only giving a protip unrelated to that particular question.

>>18600780
>the CIA funded Marcuse, who's a post-modernist, not a commie
No they didn't. Marcuse worked for the OSS during the war. This was before he began writing.

>>18600780
How do you run a modern economy without banking?
>you want to get down to the level of the Negro
Lmao, that's your ancestors you're shitting on. So much for tradition. Cucked by civilization. Might as well be a liberal.

>>18600785
>nobody. people will engage in it understanding it to be in their best interest
This is the silliest thing I have ever heard. You need to be at least 18 to post here.
>sets abtriary point as "in the peoples best interest"
>thinks it will enforce itself
>it doesnt
>forms secret police
>rinse and repeat

>>18600784
Keep making the narrative in your head bro I am sure you will convince yourself.

>>18600780
>AND they support Orthodox Christianity
That's very globohomo of them to worship a Jewish man. Fucking Austrian failed artist was right man, slavs are a lesser race.

>>18600785
>history is made by humans, it's not a demiurge
>except it autonomously prefabricates roles like General Secretary of a Communist party and anyone can arbitrarily fill that role
You're confused

>>18600819
>completely denies making actively false statements that everyone ITT can clearly see
>projects this onto the other person
Western Marxists are an impressive bunch. Maybe it's because your professors touched you too many times or something I don't know.

>>18600835
Not confused but brainwashed. Western Marxists are just low level pawns for GAFAM.

>>18600845
Yes bro Biden is literally Stalin and Trump was literally Adolf.

>>18600409
>You too are no doubt disgusted with the state of things and our current elites so accusing me of aimless rebellion is a bit rich. Family isn't an arbitrary hierarchy, slavery is.
I am age. You are youth. You may as well be disgusted and rage against the rain, the sun, the wind or death. The mechanisms of natural law facilitate survival for humans just as other species that have established hierarchical structures. I do not deem to know the mind of God or trouble myself with questioning what undisputedly is. Do you think in Carthage or Rome that the bottom of the established order thought well of the oligarchies and elites that steered their great empires? The sound you make is the regular one from the lower orders. It has always been so and always will be. Everything that has been will be again and has been before. There is nothing new under my sun.

>>18600867
Nobody is saying that here. Nobody. Just getting pathetic man, maybe go read some more "theory" in one of your reading circles or whatever it is you sycophants do.

>>18600845
>Western Marxists are an impressive bunch.
>>18600330
>Is that what modern Marxists are? Is that the dank underworld that spawns them are they the offspring of useful idiots?

>>18600881
Sure buddy no one itt has said that the libs and Marxists are same thing.

>>18600804
it's not arbitrary. people living in a human society have natural desire for a variety of experience and an all-around development; and they understand that allowing for personal appropriation of administrative positions for life is detrimental to the functioning of society and by consequence to their own well-being.

>>18600835
I'm not saying the role of a leader of the anti-communist party was autonomously prefabricated by a non-human agent. it was created by humans all right. my point is that they didn't create it out of a whim but were driven to it by historical development that resulted in: the creation of a communist party, its coming to power, its degeneration into a bourgeois party and assumption of counter-revolutionary tasks, and finally in the necessity of overcoming the lingering internal confusion and the last remnants of the revolutionary party in order to fulfill those tasks. this led to the concentration of authority in single strong hands, but only in those hands that were capable and willing to ride the wave and: eliminate all communists, carry out a rapid industrialization and make Russia an imperial power again.

>>18600929
Both Marxism and Liberalism are dead ideals that do not exist in our current world and probably will never exist again.

>>18600874
>The sound you make is the regular one from the lower orders. It has always been so and always will be. Everything that has been will be again and has been before. There is nothing new under my sun.

Will everything be different after the Revolution?
>>18595210
>Marxism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd3JrFXLrA0

>>18599387
It is meaningless. Went from being only capital owners to being just about anyone that seems elite. And I’m not just talking about online commies. Read Roland Barthes he uses bourgeoisie to describe pretty much anything which vaguely maintains the status quo.

>>18600934
>>18600819

>>18600933
>that allowing for personal appropriation of administrative positions for life is detrimental to the functioning of society
Explain that to the apparatchiks.

>>18600874
Based and pessimist pilled

>>18600940
Where does Liberalism exist? In America? The country that in 2008 launched one of the biggest State Aid recovery programs in contemporary history? There is not a single Liberal country on the planet.

>>18600936
>the word is not meaningless except when used randomly by some pseudo-Marxist leftoid
>it is meaningless, check out this pseudo-Marxist leftoid who uses it randomly
gee okay

>>18600943
I was talking about a human society, not about a capitalist state within bourgeois society

>>18600952
>not about a capitalist state within borgeois society
what does this have to do with apparatchiks? You're just throwing really outdated terminology for things that don't even exist anymore.

>>18600945
Were not Carthage and Rome magnificent for their eras, lords of the sea and Mediterranean? The glass is half full as well as half empty.

>>18600946
>>18600940

>>18600953
>what does this have to do with apparatchiks?
the USSR was capitalist
>You're just throwing really outdated terminology for things that don't even exist anymore
well, I'm not the one talking about apparatchiks

>>18600956
>has no argument
Not surprised. Usually in face-to-face discussions like this the Marxists either try to get physical or just wind up screaming incessantly. You guys are so helpless, but thankfully you have your professor who knows just where to touch you to make you feel better at that super secret revolutionary Marxist reading group you guys have ever Thursday night in the university hall basement.

>>18600946
>Where does Liberalism exist?
Ironically enough to a greater degree, here. Certainly in the sense of free expression of thought that Mill reasoned for.

>>18600952
Don’t see how Barthes is a pseudo-Marxist but okay.

>>18600960
>the USSR was capitalist
Americans should be banned from this board.
>well, I'm not the one talking about apparatchiks
What are the Clintons in America for example? America is full of such things. You are talking about capitalism like it even existed after the Great Depression.

>>18600934
>Both Marxism and Liberalism are dead ideals that do not exist in our current world and probably will never exist again.
>>18600324
>Then we also have the Kaiser and Prussian ministry knocking Russia out of WW1 using the same material, Lenin and a train stuffed full of forged rubles with a free printing press. Marx is a dead lie, from a lost civilisation, for forgotten wars, in forgotten places .

>>18600785
>in a communist society "resources" aren't held by individuals, but by society.
then how do you reward people in the lower phase of communism.
>nothing relevant follows from this.
of course it does: it isn't the end of History
>I have no idea what meaning is attached to the abstraction "hierarchies"
a system in which people are arranged according to their importance.
>>18600792
>No they didn't.
Yeah, you're right; but he did have great importance in soixante-huitard circles
>>18600801
>How do you run a modern economy without banking?
Nothing I advocated is modern
>Lmao, that's your ancestors you're shitting on.
I'm not a negro
>So much for tradition.
tradition =/= Traditionalist
>Might as well be a liberal.
State control over the economy is not liberal
>>18600804
kek
>>18600833
>That's very globohomo of them to worship a Jewish man.
this is beyond the point; it was whether it is degenerate or not

>>18600964
Holy kek
Bro keep projecting your mental demons

>>18600994
I am involved in academia and have worked with and studied in several universities across Europe and two in the US on an exchange program. The university basement hall meetings are consistently real in every single one of them, usually taking place in the evening. I particularly enjoy when they make those flyers talking about "ensuring comrades have vegan and vegetarian options".

>>18600994
I am in accord with the fact that Marxists in person when unwillingly encountered have much the same appeal as teenage atheists and cultists. I think the rage fulled reaction to dismissing their flawed doctrine is that you are in fact belittling their ancestry of useful idiots and gullible pawns.

>>18601005
>am involved in academia
According to you that painting you have painted of academia, they should have executed you long ago.

>>18601005
I remember 'Living Marxism' and its proponents defending serbian aggression against Croatia in 1991 to the extent that they used pictures of wretched Croatian prisoners of war behind Serbian wire in claims that the Coats were running concentration camps. They view the serbs as Marxist brothers at that point. Marxists have no moral framework that prevents them articulating a lie if they perceive it as advancing what they interpret as Marxism.

>>18601005
I should note that, particularly in the American Marxist dinner parties lately, the BLM crowd has almost totally overrun all discussion within their panels.

>>18601014
They have tried. I am currently blacklisted from a certain university in Berlin (Germans are indeed both miserable people and actually have quite poor academic standards/organisation) due to "mobbing" a female professor.

>>18599856
>Lenin legalized homosexuality,
This is a misconception. He abolished Tsarist russia and all its laws. That did not mean it was suddenly legalized, merely that the state that followed had a lack of codified civil and criminal law at such an early point. In point of fact, during the red terror, Lenin personally oversaw the execution of prostitutes and homosexuals. There is nothing in the 40+ volumes of his collected works showing any sympathy whatsoever for homosexuals.

>>18601023
Because Marxism was dead in the water by that point and most people who were supporting Marxism were either working for some intelligence agency or else were just totally dupes and clowns.

>>18601023
>>18601058
I mean just look at those Young Pioneers. Towards the end of the Soviet Union when most Russians were starting to learn about just how much damage the Marxists had caused internally it changed the entire outlook on this. Prior, Young Pioneers with their red scarves used to walk around high schools and look cool, etc. towards the end those same Young Pioneers who often get ambushed in public parks and beaten, some strangled with their own red scarves.

>>18600968
well if you don't even understand that "bourgeois" can have a concrete meaning, then I wouldn't expect you to understand Marx at the basic level needed to distinguish a Marxist from some academic turd who wrapped his philosophical cretinisms with a Marxist-sounding lingo because it was trendy at the time

>>18600973
>Americans should be banned from this board.
I was born and live in a former Soviet satellite state lmao
>What are the Clintons in America for example?
prominent politicians? if you meant apparatchiks in the broadest sense possible, then that's fine and I take half of it back: you weren't talking about something that doesn't exist, but you were still using "outdated" terminology (your words, I personally don't care about that)
>You are talking about capitalism like it even existed after the Great Depression.
of course. capitalism is not just a romantic snapshot of the Gilded Age US

>>18600989
>then how do you reward people in the lower phase of communism
it's not a contest for there to be rewards. you either work your part and get to eat or you don't work and you don't get to eat.
>of course it does: it isn't the end of History
that's right. it's the end of prehistory, which is characterized by humanity not being in control of its social processes

>>18601147
>I was born and live in a former Soviet satellite state lmao
Maybe Romania then, it's the only former Soviet colony I've visited where I met a few open Marxists (several of them had parents who were former intelligence officers of course).

>prominent politicians
The entire family is involved and have made quite a lucrative career in this as well. That's not even including the uncountable number of NGO's, pencil pushers, and others etc that fulfill doctrine purposes and simply exist as, by definition, apparatchiks. So no, the term is not outdated. But suggesting for example that we have "capitalism" after the Great Depression is totally insincere, and you probably even know this yourself.

>>18600989
>>18601147
>a system in which people are arranged according to their importance
what's importance? arranged how? in a row? on top of each other? honestly, I can't be bothered to keep teasing the concrete question out of you. I doubt there's even anything there to tease out

>>18601165
Starbucks pseudo-socialists with former intelligence parents is a common occurrence in several of those countries

>>18600495
Sure, if their accelerationists, especially zizekian ones, this makes perfect sense.