/lit/ - Literature

>>18544321
Gods didn't do RAGE.

You need to view the gods interventions like Bond's gadget shit. You're used to modernist works which are like a George Smiley spy novel: everyone loses, three people die (from suicide), a man moves forward slightly bureaucratically, Britain's world interests go backwards.

Iliad is a Bond Movie. fucken EXPLODING FUCKEN ATHENAS mang, did you FUCKEN SEE THAT DIVINE INTERVENTION?? And HOLY FUCKEN SHIT HOW MANY DEMOS SENT BOATS?? SO MANY FUCKEN BOATS.

But at the end of the day it is Achilles, staring into the face of Agamemnon's face going "You're going to tell hades you died scratching my nuts."

The capeshit / gadget spam is a side show to the core of the story: Dudebro's husband gets two to the head. Dudebro fucks everyone's shit up to drag Hector's dead body from the walls of Troy.

You think you're watching some Athenian Athena Tiktok and suddenly BLAM boy next door. I'm an artist. I'm a PERFORMANCE artist.

>>18544321
You're projecting an ethic uncontained in the poem into it. Nothing weightier for these characters than their destinies.

>>18544321
I love the Iliad so much bros. I want to read it in Greek before I die.

Hey bros is the aeneid worth it?

If it is do you happen to have or know any good audiobook of this? I want Virgil's stories keeping me up while I drive.

>>18544562
start learning anon /t has a thread for language learning with old greek and latin in it

>>18545468
https://mega.nz/folder/utchyAAK#GTVl1fINpekEch95xj8Fmg/folder/Kp0jxJhT
here is the audiobook and there are others as well

>>18544321
An attempt at reclaiming humanity from an inhumane activity. War strips men of their humanity, but it always finds a way in our conduct with each other, for ill or better.
>>18544336
This. There is no greater pain than Priam receiving his son's corpse from the one who killed him. His son's killer's son would later be the one to kill him, making it all the more painful when Troy finally falls.

>>18545568
>90GB for an audio book

>>18545781
i did say there are others as well anon

Someone post a good audiobook of Fagles' Iliad translation

Hector had a tough life...

>>18544321
When Diomedes Tidida attacks Aphrodite it shows that his virtue, kalos kagathos, is originated from him, although Athena is by his side. It shows the virtue of courage above the animal pulses of eros The help given by the gods depended on the ways human acted.
(Spanish speaker btw)

>>18545843
he deserved to win

>>18544321
I like to think of the gods not so much as individuals but personifications of tactical skill, a battle-hungry spirit, weather, fate, luck, etc. When Athena saves Diomedes or Zeus lets Hector press the warfront to the hollow ships, I believe it's attributing all phenomena on Earth as the work of higher beings.

>>18545568
Wow thank you anon

>>18544321
Being chosen by a god is an achievement.

Wait until you get to the tragedy:
>Gods punish if you don't commit a crime
>punish you for commiting the crime
Modern justice theory is a meme

>>18546415
This, isn't it like Odysseys being favoured by Athena, but he's only favoured because he's so smart/cunning and brave? The gods aid heroes, but the heroes only get aid because they "don't need it", it just allows them to be even MORE heroic.

Or something along those lines.

>>18544336
>>18545618
based, these guys get it
the Gods are manifested by the will of these men, in moments when they stop and invoke the gods with all their belief and will, the Gods grant them the strength that they so need
>tfw get goosebumps every time Diomedes of the great War-cry storms into the front lines with Athena at his side, injures the immortal Aphrodite (based) and goes toe-to-toe with Ares (10x based)

>>18546881
>>18547048
>>18547175
the Gods are the power of the heroes manifest

>>18547175
>the Gods are manifested by the will of these men,
This is an anachronistic reading of how the Greeks saw the gods, they saw even the personal qualities of men like Achilles' courage as being given by the gods and are quite explicit about that. It is emphatically not about moments of self-determined will

Yeah on a first reading especially its extremely odd. This is part of the reason for the old truism that the Romans are much more like us than the Greeks.

To enjoy this work you have to focus more on the structure of the plot and the feelings and images during certain scenes. Thats really where the value is.

The Odyssey I think is the greater work.

>>18545568
I heard the iliad was better when read aloud, is it worth listening to an audiobook or should i just read it myself?

>>18547204
>>18546415
except this interpretation falls apart when you remember that Gods literally teleport people out of battles, construct them invincible pieces of armour, deflect arrows out of the sky, prophesise their fates ect

>>18547463
Yeah. One of the weakest characters kills the strongest because of the gods lol

>>18547481
not sure what part you're referring to, mind explaining?

>>18547048
>This, isn't it like Odysseys being favoured by Athena, but he's only favoured because he's so smart/cunning and brave?
Yes and no. Odysseus is clear about asking for the help of Athena, Ajax in the other hand during the entire story never calls for the gods and only relies in himself.

>>18547507
I think he meant Paris killing Achilles with an arrow that was guided by Apollo.

>>18547463
Eh, it doesn't always work. A better interpretation would be they represent both the natural and supernatural. My point is gods are like laws of nature given a polytheistic twist, and though they may act self serving on occasion, it's more often they're just a face given to a part of life.

>>18547706
The Gods are the Gods. They're intelligent forces beyond man's control. Pneuma is a pre-Greek (that is, Mycenaean) concept. Ares isn't a metaphor for War, nor is he a big man that really likes war, he is War, and all that implies. Yes, that means that War is intelligent.

>>18547401
It's better read aloud in Ancient Greek. If you're reading in translation, that can be lost.

>>18547048
>Odysseys being favoured by Athena, but he's only favoured because he's so smart/cunning and brave
Ding ding.

>>18547741
Odysseus being cunning and brave is itself an instance of the gods agency

>>18547755
Correct. The Gods are omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. They aren't just "big people". This is precisely what I said in >>18547741 with the bit about Pneuma.

>>18547802
I thought you were implying that his traits were emergent from him somehow rather than being the result of the action of gods themselves

>>18545518
>/t
There's a trans board now? They teach Ancient Greek?

The Greeks were very explicit about the distinction between gods and man. While they aren't as extreme about it as Abrahamic religion, there was a societal impetus against angering "hybris", or basically acting like more than a man.
Homer is not to be read like this >>18547175 , it's actually quite explicit about the role of fate and the helplessness of man. Achilles knows he's going to die before anything even happens, and he does die, even though he's the greatest warrior. Man cannot escape Fate. The Homeric poems are like the Bible, though secular, for the Greeks. The poems are a model for living, both as the great men Achilles and Odysseus, and as humble men under the power of the gods. Of course, the gods would not help them if they were not great worthy men already.

>>18547226
You don't understand. Read more.

>>18548106
Unless you explain your point I'll assume you understand even less

>>18547594
well that doesn't happen in the iliad

>>18547862
They teach you to be like Tiresias.