/lit/ - Literature

>>18510638
Web serials are the refuge of the mediocre author.

It's a first draft of a first time writers and reads like it, and its capeshit YA, all of which is to say its bizarre that it's as good as it is

I love the main character and the atmosphere is really well done. Don't care about worldbuilding or whatever and i liked the characters. The sequel is trash and the fanbase is is some real cringe.

Personally, for me it was a complete slog to read because of the massive word count that's well over a million words. As for the story itself... the world-building is rather unique and organic for its loose setting based-irl, the power scaling and how they worked was reasonable and well-written. The Endbringers as well were original in execution aside from the fact that they are based on mythology.
The only real complaint that I have with it is the fucking fact that Wildbow (the author) rewrote several story-arcs several times because he couldn't control his fanbase. The reason being for this is because of the massive fuck-load of fanfiction that Worm spawned. Suffice to say, this happened cause ficanons would keep fucking pestering him about small, minute bullshit about the story which made him edit the story, this then caused a rather major rift in his fanbase who accused him of changing shit for some reason I don't know. Most of the popularity that Worm got was due to the fanfiction based sites like Fanfiction.net, Spacebattles, Sufficient Velocity and Questionable Questing, all of which spawned in Spacebattles, a forum that Wildbow used to be active in.

>>18510968
why

>>18510638
>Thoughts
Not much to say about it, at time it often felt that the author was just padding an arc. Though I do love it since it makes all the pseuds seethe, since they don't write.

>>18511080
Wildbow is retarded. Why the fuck does he care about what fans think?

I am more intrigued by the idea of Worm than by what its actual content is.

Basically: Worm is a work written in prose and released for free on the internet. It was thrown into the world in arguably the worst possible set of circumstances. It did not have traditional publishing behind it, it did not even have the veneer of legitimacy that self-publishing ostensibly provides. No, it was fully thrust out into the world online for free. It has more in common with fanfics than it does with "serious" literature.

Yet despite all that, it's garnered a major following. People know about it. People arguably know more about it than they know about some of the middle-tier works of great literature. It has, as >>18511080 notes, spawned a fan community, which generates fanart, fanfiction, speculation, forums, and discussion, and this is somewhat substantial. As the OP's image attests, some of the works of the fan community are of rather high quality.

So what I can't help but fixate on is: what lessons does Worm teach current writers? Current poets? Sure, maybe Worm isn't the greatest of all works. It's not Moby-Dick, it's not War & Peace, it's not the Iliad, it's not Paradise Lost. But despite all that, it was thrown into the online world and because it does, indeed, have some positive qualities, it garnered a following. Is this just how works of literature that matter are going to be released, from now on? If we on /lit/ keep bitching on how mainstream publishers don't publish great works of literature any more, does Worm offer a counter-example? If someone is as ambitious as great writers tend to be, would he release his major work online these days, instead of going through a publisher? If Joyce were writing in 2021, would he put Ulysses online, free for all to see?

Basically: if you have a certain amount of conviction in your story, is there a point at seeking traditional publishing any more? Worm's success, such as it is, suggests that there is an avenue to fame for totally-online publishing. Could a story that was superior to Worm, as a work of art, achieve even greater success? I think about this.

>>18511223
>So what I can't help but fixate on is: what lessons does Worm teach current writers?
To just write. That’s it. Not a hard thing to do, but for some reason it is. More so for the pseuds, who actively need an excuse to not write, by worrying over trite pseudo-intellectual bullshit. You see other web serial on different sites that follow this basic rule and the author profits from it. Some making a thousand dollars a month, other being able to live the dream by being a writer full time do to this. Hell, one even earns 15 thousand dollars a month thanks to his web serial. But does /lit/ care about this? No. And why? Because of some pseud bullshit. It’s the reason why /wg/ is such a fucking joke to begin with. Because most of the posters there are deluded assholes who think they’re going to be the next great author. It’s also why most of /lit/ is shit as well. I had better discussions about /lit/ related things on different boards than I do here.

>>18511327
Good point. That's actually a really good point. How many people just don't get it done? How many people who say they're going to be a great writer or a great poet don't even put in the effort to write? And how many people who aren't actually talented manage to garner some level of following, simply becuase they have a work ethic that makes them put in the effort day in and day out?

I've had several short stories and several poems published in various venues, and I am currently working on a big story. Thinking about Worm is making me more and more consider just putting it out there into the world and seeing what happens. I'm not even a total nobody online, I have some presence on social media that I could use to promote the story. And more than that, I believe in the story. I think it's good. People who have already read it think it's good, too. I've got an entire book done already and the second book is in progress.

Maybe, following Worm's example, a big, good story should just be released into the world? A story that's of sufficient size, and which has been praised by the few who've already read it? Maybe if such a story were released, it would find the level of success that Worm has found, or greater? I don't know, but Worm's example is so interesting, and compelling.

>>18511377
>How many people just don't get it done? How many people who say they're going to be a great writer or a great poet don't even put in the effort to write?
Just go on /wg/ and you will find the answer quick. There’s a reason why they despise the “animefags” as the pseuds called them. Because they’re the only ones that write.

>And how many people who aren't actually talented manage to garner some level of following, simply becuase they have a work ethic that makes them put in the effort day in and day out?
Plenty. I know at least a dozen web serial that garner a following because the author just wrote and had a consistent chapter release. Again, it’s not that difficult if someone put their time into it. As for the self-publishing books. Some authors believed in their books merit and some even won rewards because of it. Again, the problem here and possibly the rest of the internet is due to the fact they want to be the next big author.

>>18511193
They pay his patreon.

>>18511223
>>18511377
Honestly, when you have stupid shit like this "Talent is important" They're a lost cause.

>>18510638
It's gay, retarded, and fagshit. Yes I'm well aware of the redundancy.

>>18510996
>I love the main character
are you 15 years old

>>18511753
Taylor is the modern day Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov

>>18511327
>duuuuude just turn your brain off and write genre fiction bro, you can make a lot of money with those patreonbux in due time!!!!
Another abhorrent post from the resident vtuber tranny.

>>18511762
No, she's Raskolnikov if the author lacked the self-awareness to realize this kind of character isn't actually "cool" in anyway.

>>18511780
Yes, yes, you don’t write and you delude yourself into thinking you’re going to be the next Proust, Dostoyevsky, etc, etc. a tale as old as time.

>>18511791
>dat projection

I wouldn't read a story that has a million words in anything, let alone childish YA tripe. Why do prose writers despise brevity so much? Is it because they lack the capacity for verse, as they can't substitute quality with quantity?

>>18511787
Characters who think they're Above Good and Evil, or in Taylor's case, Villain Protagonist, are good reads no matter the era.

>>18511807
>Characters who think they're Above Good and Evil
Easy on the Nietzsche, loser.

>>18511811
Not even a Nietzsche fan retard, the character concept is interesting nonetheless.

>>18511813
>dude teenage girl that's evil lmao
Wow!

>>18511817
I know right, really wish it was done more. Mix things up a bit every now and again.

>>18511823
>I know right, really wish it was done more.
Just read comic books and manga.

>>18511791
I say this without any hint of irony - I genuinely trust those procrastinators to create something excellent before anyone ITT.

>>18511829
Already do, wish more western authors just got with the times.

>>18511835
How's the HRT going by the way?

>>18511830
Then keep waiting forever. They don’t write and when they do, it’s hot garbage.

>>18511843
Don't know what that is, but yeah, I like to read a variety of things, traditionally publish novels have gotten stale. Probably won't be long until they collapse as a industry. Which is fine by me, self-publish novels are better than them now.

>>18511844
Frankly I don't know wtf you're on about, I'm guessing you have a grudge with /wg/ one way or another, but the sheer amount of junk food tier garbage you people dump there convinces me that a serious writer would be better off being more selective with his audience anyways.

>>18511853
>serious writer would be better off being more selective with his audience anyways
The days of serious writers are over, its all about profitability now.

>>18511853
His point is that it's no good to put yourself up there as a "serious" writer if you aren't actually going to write. His point is that /lit/ is filled with a lot of phonies and poseurs, people who talk a lot about living the "literary lifestyle," but who never actually sit down and put pen to paper, or fingers to keyboard. Sure, maybe the people in /wg/ aren't very good, but simply by virtue of their productivity they're better than a ton of people on /lit/ who don't write and who also don't even read.

>>18511846
Bloom weeps.

>>18511873
>Sure, maybe the people in /wg/ aren't very good, but simply by virtue of their productivity they're better than a ton of people on /lit/ who don't write and who also don't even read.
"Productivity" is a meme. Contemplation is arguably a greater contributor than action is, a one hit wonder will live on in the hearts of all of us before a serial writer who dumps mediocrity after mediocrity will. Nael, age 6, has created more profound literature than Wildbow in his entirety.

>>18511899
The absolute Pseud take and cope. Contemplation Means jack shit if you don’t write and that’s the problem we’re seeing.

>>18511913
You just lack patience, hence your fetishization of the work ethic.

>>18511223
>So what I can't help but fixate on is: what lessons does Worm teach current writers?
ahahahaha what the fuck is there to "learn" you stupid faggot? "Oh after watching Star Wars... maybe I could do that????" christ

>>18511919
Yes, anon, I lack patience because I won’t tolerate the phonies and poseurs who delude themselves into think they’re "serious" writer.

Nihilistic power fantasy trash for manchildren. It's basically Warhammer 40k 2.0

>>18511972
>IP count didn't increase.

>>18511104
Because it's entirely self-evident. I don't need to elaborate any further.

>>18511919
How many words did you write this month, anon?

>>18511992
And tell us, what’s your novel like?

>>18511998
I don't have a novel?

>>18512005
As expected. This man achieved more than you ever will.

>>18512013
Okay?

>>18512013
I actually bought Diamond League, and I was decently impressed by the book. That isn't to say it isn't without its faults, the prose is pretty clumsy, especially in the first few chapters. Grammatical, typographical, and even formatting issues are rampant. But overall its a decent book worth buying to support the Author.

>>18511817
Taylor did nothing wrong

>>18511223
For every worm, wandering inn there's a pile of web novels that will never reach a glint of that success.

>>18511930
Why are you so insistent on more schlock being produced? There is literally trillions of words of escapism being produced every year. What is this commodification mentality? Why would you encourage people to become another cog in the american neoliberal machine of consumption?

>>18512056
NTA, but how many words did you write this month, anon?

>>18512058
I think about 4000 but I am gonna erase half of them.

>>18512061
>two-thousand words
Opinion discarded.

>>18512066
I don't understand why you are so insistent on derailing the thread with low quality bait.

>>18512058
You ask me how much
I shall tell you these four words
Woman you are not.

>>18512037
>females
>named taylor no less
>doing nothing wrong

>>18512056
I got nothing wrong with “schlock” being produce. If readers want to buy it that’s their choice. What I want to know is why are you defending phonies and poseurs

>>18512108
Stop making up imaginary boogeymen in your head.

>>18512096
What would you have done in her position?

>>18512115
Yes, anon, because /lit/ isn’t filled with phonies and poseurs, people who talk a lot about living the "literary lifestyle," but who never actually sit down and put pen to paper, or fingers to keyboard.

>>18512096
Wait until you hear her last name :)

>>18512108
You are not just OK with schlock being produced, you are actively demeaning anyone who doesn't produce schlock.

>>18512121
I have never seen anyone unironically talk about "literary lifystyle" before in my life. Never, in 25 years, not once. Ever. 5 years of browsing /lit/, not once. A few "most /lit/ city" threads but those are clearly half-joking. Not that your autistic ass would see that.

>>18512116
I don't know I didn't read the story I just hate the name 'Taylor'.

>>18512127
>I have never seen anyone unironically talk about "literary lifystyle" before in my life. Never, in 25 years, not once. Ever. 5 years of browsing /lit/, not once. A few "most /lit/ city" threads but those are clearly half-joking. Not that your autistic ass would see that.
NTA but are you serious? We got idiots always talking about the literary lifestyle here. At the very least, its heavily romanticize.

>>18512131
I have seen two self-parody wojak memes for example one with DFW amerimutt anon and one with "god christ is that turgenev on the bookshelf". A bunch of jokes like that, sure.
Nothing serious though, unless you count forest anon lifestyle as "literary", in which case fuck you for shitting on the best thing to happen to /lit/.

>ctrl + f 'NTA'
>5 results

>>18512149
NTA but it seems like consoomer anon is trying to make it look like there are more than one consooomer anons

>>18512149
NTA

>>18512039
>there's a pile of web novels that will never reach a glint of that success.
I've seen many web novels have early good starts and middling following only for them to falter due to the author's inability to maintain a consistent chapter release.

Helo frens, I am webnovel anonymous, here is what I like of the ones still running:
The Perfect Run
Menocht Loop
Virtous Sons (author is /lit/fag probably)
Worth the Candle
Castle Kingside

>>18511327
>money money money
You can't take money to hell with you and nobody will remember your bland trash after you're gone

>>18512191
So no argument?

>>18512200
NTA but money beyond the average wage of any first world country is irrelevant.

>>18512191
>write webnovel in a trash genre to dip my toes in the self-pub market
>people like it, get about 300 regular views per chapter, 70 000 views total
>interact with fans
>make about 20€ from the whole endeavour
>become wagie, realize I don't have time to keep posting regularly (and needed a break anyway)
>fans tell me godspeed, they'll be waiting whenever I feel like getting back
>warm feeling inside
Really enjoyed the whole experience, and it gave me some much needed confidence about putting my work out there. Made mistakes, learned a lot about the marketing/business side of it, and know that I'm definitely going to give this another try. Money or no money, I urge anons to produce fun schlock, post it on Royal Road, and ride that wave.

>>18512210
NTA, but I disagree, and to deny it is ludicrous. And people who say otherwise are at a disconnect today.

>>18512171
That or no one looks at it scroll through wattpad, even fanfiction.net at the sea unseen content. Like deviant art any 15 year old can jump into.

>>18512290
>no one looks at it scroll through wattpad, even fanfiction.net at the sea unseen content.
The problem with this line of thinking is that in WebSerial, you have to advertise and the websites that host them encourage writers to advertise their work. it's the author's fault if they fail at this.

>>18511223
>Yet despite all that, it's garnered a major following. People know about it. People arguably know more about it than they know about some of the middle-tier works of great literature.
I’ve never heard of it until right this second.

>>18511800
It’s the difference between writing a character in a story and writing a character in a universe honestly. Stories end. Universes don’t.

I’ve never heard of this or the author before this thread. With so many words and installments, I’m not going to bother investing into this but I did look through and I can say it is impressive that it managed to garner a following and positive reviews. I just have to wonder how much of that positivity is precisely because of the following. I’ve never heard of it and I have a hard time believing many people who might otherwise give this a negative review have heard of it either. I guess if you want to glean a lesson from this it’s how the internet can allow you to access your reader easily, but I don’t mistake this as anything more or less than the sort of thing I might find in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

>>18512464
I guess I should add to this that it does say a thing or two about traditional publishing. I don’t really see this as the sort of thing that most people here might want to write but it does speak to the fact that if you have a good product and you put it out there, you can garner supporters and funding, via the internet without being hampered by the traditional commercial restrictions. I guess the difference is what you’re putting out there though. I don’t see this sort of thing working for a 200 page novel but if I wanted to write a 1,000 page superhero epic then sure.

>>18512481
One last thought:

Something like this is never really profound. It’s an interesting idea, the way he went about it. But as an author, there’s a degree to which people want to compete in the arena of mainstream publishing like an athlete wants to compete in the professional league. Web novels and serials have been around for a long time but even the really good ones get reined into a traditional novel at some point. Yeah, authors want to be read but they also want to be read along traditional lines. None of these web novels or serials will ever reach the sort of praise stories get in other mediums, they’ll never really influence writing and story telling, and people will inevitably forget about them as soon as they end.

>>18512239
>no argument

>>18512495
>Yeah, authors want to be read but they also want to be read along traditional lines.
Web authors don't give two shits about that and most go the self-publish route and still make bank.

a literal discord tranny introduced me to this series so i will never ever touch it.

>>18512515
That’s why I said “authors” and not specifically “web authors”.

>>18511995
Not that anon but probably 5,000 desu

>>18512200
You're either selectively blind, illiterate, or just very stupid. I'm guessing all three

>>18512235
I've been posting on RR for three years and made some money too, but I don't think it's any reason to act like James Cameron on an anonymous image board. Rather, it's so embarrassing I tell no one about it

>>18512729
Who are you? Please post story, I have really enjoyed RR stories written by my /lit/ bros in the past. Don't worry about self-doxing, anonymous 4chin post proves nothing.

>>18511377
What's your story about? Is any of it available online?

>>18512729
James Cameron? I don't know your references, anon. What does Cameron have to do with webfiction?
And you should be more proud of your work, it takes effort.

The virgin worm
vs
The chad thank you for eating burgers
https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/36209/burgerpunk-pizza-time

>>18511992
Nice (non)argument, pseud.

are there any webfic that's actually finished and worth reading?

>>18513179
People harp a lot on Mother of Learning, but I tried the first chapter and it's written with a sort of anime aesthetic that I dislike.
This one feels like Bioshock, somewhat: https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/40150/pith/chapter/626394/1-a-the-caterpillars-dilemma

>>18513179
Worm

So is Royal Road the go-to place for English web novels?

>>18514005
i just go to topwebfiction, sort by votes and read from the top.
Results - acceptable.

>>18514005
>>18514013
Now that i think of it, you wouldnt find Mother of learning that way.
So use RR and topwebfiction i guess ?

>>18514013
>>18514024
Do people also submit their stories directly to topwebfiction? I don’t even understand how Royal road works. Apparently people make money off of it.

>>18514028
RR is just a platform. Writers get money from donations and patrion stuff.

>>18514028
When did they do the redesign? It looks like shit, I prefered the old now bullshit one. How the fuck o I even select different time intervals?

>>18514039
Ah I see.

>>18514075
Sorry. I think you’re asking the wrong person. I’m not familiar with these things.

>>18510638
I read Worm when I was a teenager and enjoyed it. My tastes have changed since then, I probably wouldn't enjoy 1 mil+ words of capeshit today, but I still have a lot of respect for the author's hustle. The fact that a random internet autist was able to make a living through their passion project, and through sheer hard work, is pretty inspiring ngl.

Worm's strengths are its characterization and atmosphere, like >>18510996 says. The nature of the setting's rules mean that superpowers are being doled out to damaged and highly flawed people. Death is common, and fates worse then death aren't all that rare. Every character feels like he or she is standing on the edge of a cliff, just one push away from total moral degradation. The important characters are all fun to watch while also having compelling personal conflicts, and the world is much bigger then all of them. The setting is straddling a cliff just as much as its characters, with the planet as a whole approaching societal collapse at best, Armageddon at worse. Its easy to see how our protagonist, Taylor, faced with (seemingly) total apathy of the people in charge, makes the moral compromises she does, and its easy to root for her quest to save the world. But the world is bigger then Taylor, and there are factors in play that she either isn't aware of, or isn't mature enough to comprehend. The more extreme Taylor's actions get, the more the reader starts to fear that her noble intentions aren't accomplishing much more then furthering social issues the good guys have been trying to mitigate from the beginning.

The story is filled with great ambiguities, and nails the illusion of a vast world where even the minute characters are going through their own shit. All that said, I'd have a hard time recommending it to someone unless they were already interested. Despite its strengths, its still a first draft, the prose and pacing can get pretty rough. There are lots of story chunks that are a huge slog to get through, especially right in the beginning. Fans will tell you to push through to arc 8, and yeah at arc 8 the story improves dramatically, but by that point you've already read a full novel's worth of words. If you're story takes that long to properly get going, that's a legitimate problem. I'd maybe be willing to go back through it again if there was ever a rewrite and official publication, but its starting to look like that'll never happen.

Overall, 6.5/10. If you're the type who turns his nose at genre fiction, Worm definitely won't change your mind, but if you have a passing interest in web serials, Wildbow, or unusually good capeshit, it could be worth your time.

>>18512848
After Titanic came out and won a bunch of awards, director James Cameron declared himself "the king of the world". This attitude seems common among those who manage to make some patreon bucks posting online and use the fact to deflect all criticism. While I think living by begging donations is only humiliating

>>18512618
There’s no difference between the two other than the one pseuds make.

>>18513179
Moher of Learning.

>>18514550
Yeah, except for the obvious difference that one publishes exclusively on the web and the other doesn’t.

>>18514652
A Pseud take to differentiate. There is no difference between the two.

>>18514178
What of his other novels?

Autistic ponyfags got him beat.

>>18514986
Impressive. But I thought the longest fictional story was Loud House?

>>18512013
Well it's not a momentous novel so it shouldn't matter to anyone, i think.

>>18515295
No novel is momentous. I don’t see why you’re trying to downplay his.

>>18515250
The fan art is top notch.

>>18514178
>Worm's strengths are its characterization and atmosphere, like >>18510996 says. The nature of the setting's rules mean that superpowers are being doled out to damaged and highly flawed people. Death is common, and fates worse then death aren't all that rare. Every character feels like he or she is standing on the edge of a cliff, just one push away from total moral degradation. The important characters are all fun to watch while also having compelling personal conflicts, and the world is much bigger then all of them. The setting is straddling a cliff just as much as its characters, with the planet as a whole approaching societal collapse at best, Armageddon at worse. Its easy to see how our protagonist, Taylor, faced with (seemingly) total apathy of the people in charge, makes the moral compromises she does, and its easy to root for her quest to save the world. But the world is bigger then Taylor, and there are factors in play that she either isn't aware of, or isn't mature enough to comprehend. The more extreme Taylor's actions get, the more the reader starts to fear that her noble intentions aren't accomplishing much more then furthering social issues the good guys have been trying to mitigate from the beginning.
Awful. Why can't millennials write anything that isn't subversive "nihilistic and amoral" trash that exposes a veneer of the author's self-loathing?

>>18515407
we are all products of our time

>>18515407
Nothing wrong with writing subversive "nihilistic and amoral" works.

>>18515450
Nihilists are essentially child authors. They are incapable of art.

>>18515500
Yeah, yeah, anon, you’re the arbiter of what’s art and what isn’t.

>>18515528
>you’re the arbiter of what’s art and what isn’t.
Not that far necessarily, but I can see through it as the junk food entertainment it really is. It's Netflix in the form of prose.

>>18515407
it's not a nihilistic work.

>>18515669
let the idiot think he's smart. That's all he has going for him.

>>18515620
Sure you do.

>>18515250
>>18510638
I just realized that this series never had official art, unlike many modern serial. Why was that?