/lit/ - Literature

>>18500500
Pbuh

>>18500500
wow thats truly fascinating stuff
>Also.. Fissures in the Great Wall chapter… ayyyyy
can you explain this?

>>18500965
Not OP but is about the counter-initiation and inverted spirituality which is basically what satanism means.

>>18500500
>He begins with the origin of the coin as a sacred object made of a valuable material and covered with transcendent symbols
That's because temples were literally just pre-modern banks and priests were tax collectors.

>>18501251
This post was made by jewish hands.

>>18501251
You don't understand, shut up.

>>18501267
>>18501271
Cope

>>18500500
early electronics already existed in the 30s, very primitive computers even if you count lightbulbs

>>18501251
>t. the echoing cry of a lost soul deep in Kali Yuga

>>18500965
Basically we have this Great Wall that filters out all the inferior sub-dimensional entities. However, in Kali Yuga, cracks start to emerge and these entities manifest themselves in our world. Ayys and UFOs only started appearing after the first nuclear bomb was dropped.
Check out Charles Upton’s book on it. There’s some good discussion on the topic in the archives

>>18501291
You really don't understand. Guenon is explicitly pro hierarchy, conditional on the hierarchy being ordered on intellectual (spiritual) merit. Of course he's not going to approve of a hierachy ordered by wealth accumulation.

>>18501534
>pro hierarchy, conditional on the hierarchy being ordered on intellectual (spiritual) merit.
Doesn't exist. Society isn't a monastery. Cope/10

>>18501478
I've heard about this Yuga period theory before, but what happens after the last stage (Kali)?

>>18501643
It doesn't know, but it did

>>18501864
So what? Should I write in Julius Caesar when I vote in elections while I'm at it?

>>18501911
Still voting Trump

>>18501911
>voting

>>18501963
>having an irrelevant opinion on idealized clerical authority

>>18501987
>relevance

>>18502036
Ah good point this is a Guenon thread after all

>>18502056
Can you explain why he makes you seethe so much?

>>18501707
Cycles around. In Hinduism, basically a demon comes to destroy the world and the last avatar of Vishnu, Kalki, appears on a white horse to defeat it. After that, the next manvantara begins, starting from Satya Yuga, the Golden Age, where there is only one caste.

Guenon also says that a manvantara is the great cycle of a human race, and that at the end, only a part of it will continue on to form the seed of the next human race.

Oy vey

>>18502738
This is actually an interesting and competent alternative to the /pol/tier nonsense and leftist ignorance. But if that is true, why aren't tatars and other nomads behaving like that?

>>18502854
>tatars
Islam keeps them on the straight path
>other nomads
not enough high IQ to subvert cultures and governments like yids do

>>18502854
We’re really talking about Western Civ here. Tatars are irrelevant.
Evola wrote an essay once about Secular Judaism being the greatest threat, alongside political freemasonry. Check it out.

>>18502854
Or Gypsies.

Don't expect logical argument from midwits.

>>18501291
>>18501643
it's not either/or. it's not production hierarchy vs monastic hierarchy, wealth vs poverty, progress vs equilibrium, sex vs chastity.

The point is to put things in their proper place within the one hierarchy. There's a place for entrepreneurs, athletes and monks in a properly ordered society. But a society that places strippers and pop-singers above priests and warriors, malls and consumption above churches and charity is not well ordered, it's becoming inverted and demented, idiocracy tier .

>>18502982
>>18502854
The part of being dettached from their tradition is what makes the deviation so strong among them. These other groups are more traditional and have less influence than secular jews.

>>18503036
Yeah there's always going to be a hierarchy, the question is what is it's foundation and where is it pointing man to?

>>18503036
>But a society that places strippers and pop-singers above priests and warriors, malls and consumption above churches and charity is not well ordered, it's becoming inverted and demented, idiocracy tier
You don't even have priests and warriors to place over them. The entire guenonian jeremiad is hundreds of years late. Maybe Utah is what you are looking for.

>>18502568
To clarify your last point, only those who were alive at the beginning of the manvantara will be saved.

>>18502941
>Evola wrote an essay once about Secular Judaism being the greatest threat, alongside political freemasonry. Check it out.
Whats the name? I agree wholeheartedly.

>>18502738
I'm currently reading Vectors of the Counter-Initiation by Charles Upton. His views have matured since he wrote System of the Antichrist, but I never would've guessed he would become this redpilled. This passage is in the third page of the introduction. I apologize if the image is sideways since I'm phoneposting.

>>18503198
I can't read Australian.

>>18503203
Sorry, hopefully this one is better.

>>18500500
pee buh

>>18500500
What does Guenon have to say about dialectics? Is this book about the change from quantity into quality? Did he complete German Idealism?

>>18503217
He also briefly discussed kabbalist banker jews infiltrating the Bavarian Illuminati and Freemasonry.

>>18503217
>>18503316
And who is behind them? Or is that where this line of inquiry terminates?

>>18503327
I'm only 3 chapters in. It seems the inquiry stops there, but I think naming the jew would go beyond the scope of the book, and I think he knows better than to outright name them. Besides, he's not a rogue Traditionalist and independently wealthy like Evola where he can do so safely.

>>18502568
>In Hinduism, basically a demon comes to destroy the world and the last avatar of Vishnu, Kalki, appears on a white horse to defeat it.
you guys don't seriously believe this, right

>>18503389
Sounds like the antichrist-christ dichotomy of Islamo-Christian civilization (sorry Jews you follow the antichrist).
Let me ask you, do you seriously believe that all major civilizations around the world just coincidently had an almost identical eschatology? Even the Hawaiians have stories of the Garden of Eden (and the times before the Garden of Eden during the last Kali Yuga). The Incans as well describe a cyclical destruction of humanity for multiple cycles. Egyptians in the time of Socrates had a scroll describing tens of thousands of years of human history, and it described that mankind had many times been destroyed by both water and fire.
Once you start to really read deeply into ancient literature and start to practice alchemy and magic you'll come to discover that most of what is passed off as knowledge is glorified ignorance. Either we (modern civilization) are wrong, or every other society in human history was wrong.

>>18503476
it's not a coincidence, but I don't know if there's any deeper reason behind it than "sex in garden good, fire and flood bad" that's just the limits of the human experience

>>18503556
>but I don't know if there's any deeper reason behind it than "sex in garden good, fire and flood bad" that's just the limits of the human experience
Thats the limits of human experience when you live in a counter-initiatory society ruled by satanists, yes. Transcend above this material plane anon, our world is but illusionary distraction and enjoyment.

>>18501291
Turn the pyramid upside down for modern America and you'd be right

>>18503614
I don't know, "this is the end times because 6 million years ago things were fine" just seems like an excuse indians would make to justify their behavior

>>18502982
Have you ever met gypsies? All they do is destroy and ransack everything they touch; the only difference between them and Jews is that Jews exist on a higher intellectual level, whereas gypsies are only intelligent enough to live on the level of physical exploitation (rather than debt or other more abstract means). There are whole gypsy human trafficking rings that operate between Canada and Europe, if you didn't know. I don't know if the authorities have stopped it yet, but it was a big issue at least 10 years ago.

this is a good thread of people who actually know what theyre talking about pls don't die i pray to lord shiva

>>18503389
It’s just symbolism brah

I never read this guy at all but I'm assuming that the reason he's pushed so hard and his ideas are not censored is because he has nothing to say that is damaging to the status quo.
>like dude there were coins and they have like symbols on them and stuff
Cool, but that doesn't get me a girlfriend and a job that isn't terrible.

>>18504521
>Cool, but that doesn't get me a girlfriend and a job that isn't terrible.
Maybe Tinder and Seek are more for you than Guenon

>>18504521
Anti-Guenon fags are the most insufferable people on /lit/

>>18501251
My source for this is the Zeitgeist documentary, you should all watch it.
Also I'm trans BTW.

>>18504521
Guenon's writings have good optics so they won't be banned for a long time.

>>18503217
>There is a danger that those who see Hitler as a pawn of history will forget to ask where his money come from
ahahah based Upton

>>18503040
>>18503653
I like how these two guys want to defend midwit trash yet come up with totally different reasons why counter examples don't prove their midwit wrong. It's because there is no coherent view to defend, just rambling critique wrapped in enough obscurantism to keep the interpretation open.

>>18503036
Malls are dead and Bezos, Musk, and Gates are plenty famous and have 100+ times more wealth than the richest pop stars (and the richest pop stars are all entrepreneurs with lables and clothing lines).

Ancient Romans knew gladiators and chariot racers over philosophers and priests. Ancient Greeks complain about athletes and musicians dominating while philosophers were ignored. There is nothing new under the sun.

>>18503356
>>18503316
>Jews funded Hitler
I never understood this...unless they knew he would lose and make the perfect scapegoat?

>>18505273
>Bezos, Musk, and Gates are plenty famous and have 100+ times more wealth than the richest pop stars
There is a 100 pop stars, footballers, comedians, etc. for every Bezos or Musk

>>18504569
okay guenonfag.

>>18503316
His opinion on Freemasonry is just wrong. Freemasonry has its roots in medieval masonry so its traditional origin is undeniable, masonic symbolism is a proof for this. That being said, Freemasonry can only "degenerate" as Guenon would say, but it can never be counter-initiatory because it was not an organization made from scratch, like Theosophy for example. When it comes to the people in Freemasonry with dubious intentions(and yes there are agents of the counter-initiation inside Freemasonry), that doesn't change anything about the organization itself. There are occultists, pedophiles, and so forth who are part of the Catholic Church, does this mean that Catholicism is counter-initoatory? No. So you should make a distinction between degenerated traditional groups and counter-initiatic ones, the later having no traditional(divine) origin.

>>18503154
At the beginning of this manvantara or the new one?

>>18505767
This one.

>>18505244
They're not totally different reasons. The other guy might have a point that gypsies are closer to whatever tradition they have in their culture (although I doubt this, I think it likely applies more to Tatars and other steppe nomads who have remained in their ancient home, without requiring the support of foreign cultures to sustain them), but I'd at least posit that it is not the only reason due to my experience with them. Gypsies are, quite obviously, less intelligent than Jews, which you realize after interacting with them for any period of time. They are also obviously far more anti-social, which probably stems from decreased problem-solving ability. I'm not really sure how you don't see this as coherent, it's not very complicated.

>>18505244
They were replying to different things, one was answering a broader question, the other one about Gypsies specifically. The two answers don't contradict each other.

>>18505273
the decadence and perversion of hierarchy occurred long before the greek/roman empires...the greeks killed socrates for corrupting the youth, the romans were feeding christian martyrs to lions for sport.

When Guenon and trads speak of returning to tradition they don't mean return to a particular moment in history, but to return to following a set of timeless principles that would better align man, his soul and society towards what is truly essential in life.

>>18504796
It's a well documented historic fact.

>>18505802
And what happens to the rest?

>>18505829
>return to following a set of timeless principles that would better align man, his soul and society towards what is truly essential in life.
So they are right wing communists, with all the lunacy that implies

>>18505829
They look at the past with rose tinted glasses, that isn't anything novel.

I know less of the other guy but Evola is Crowley tier when it comes to understanding the occult and a brainlet conspiracy theorist when it comes to politics, so it is hard to take him seriously.

>>18505829
>timeless principles
Name one

>>18505869
If they look to the past it's usually to analyze how a principle manifested given the conditions, institutions and peoples of that time, not that we ought to emulate that particular manifestation in our time.

>>18505896
the distinction between the absolute and relative

>>18505914
Oh no. Don't tell the trads they're actually Buddhists it might upset them

My friends, all of you, what think ye?
For the sake of this day, I am for the first time content to have lived my entire life. And that I testify so much is still not enough for me. It is worthwhile living on the earth one day, one festival with Zarathustra hath taught me to love the earth. “Was that life?” Will I say unto death? Well Once More!

>>18505940
Not really how it works, buddhism is a particular, intentional path you take with vows and practices and dedications.

>>18505415
>His opinion on Freemasonry is just wrong. Freemasonry has its roots in medieval masonry so its traditional origin is undeniable, masonic symbolism is a proof for this. That being said, Freemasonry can only "degenerate" as Guenon would say, but it can never be counter-initiatory because it was not an organization made from scratch, like Theosophy for example.

You have been spouting this nonsense in other threads saying that counter-initiatory organizations must be made from scratch like Theosophy or Scientology whatever.

Even Guénon tells in Reign of Quantity how (Siberian) Shamanism itself is a perfect example of Primordial tradition as being the literal mantle bearer of Hyperborean traditions, but in our modern times it is one of the main counter-initiatory centres in terms of Theosophy.

But then again, you have never read René Guénon and the Seven Towers of Satan (René Guénon et les Sept Tours du Diable)

Same way Guénon regarded the Yazidis as one of the main counter-initiatic centres. You probably would argue that Yezidis cannot be counter-initiatory, since it is actual tradition, but yet again, you don't understand what Guénon means by counter-initiation.

Same way, Guénon regarded Voodoo and certain African tribalistic religions as degenerated forms of Atlantean traditions and later becoming even counter-initiation centres through certain sorcerers.

You could start by reading "Shamanism and Sorcery" chapter in Reign of Quantity. At least stop posting nonsense about what Guénon "meant by counter-initiation", since you yourself do not seem to have the slightest clue.

>>18506213
>Shamanism itself is a perfect example of Primordial tradition as being the literal mantle bearer of Hyperborean traditions
Take me back anons, to the good old days

>>18505914
Wrong.
Try again.

>>18505415
>>18506213

Guénon associates the agencies of the Counter-Initiation as the ‘Saints of Satan that are in Sufism/Islam known as (awliyāʾ al-shaytān) and they are the inverse hierarchy in contrast to All-Merciful’ (awliyāʾ al-Rahmān)

The master of these "Saints of Satan", is the Antichrist, Al-Dajjal.

Guénon elsewhere in his letters attributes certain geographical regions, traditions, to these counter-initiatic centres (that are for example dealt in the book "Seven Towers of Satan" ((René Guénon et les Sept Tours du Diable))

These Seven "Satanic Saints" are also associated with the Big Dipper (which is also known in India as the constellation Saptarishi = Seven Sages).

Big Dipper itself is associated with Swastika (because of the movement in the night sky) and their immovable center is the Qutb and the "8th head" of the Stooping Dragon (in the case of Saints of Satan, it is the Antichrist, al-Daijal.

In regards to counter-initiation, it is futile to understand what Guénon meant by it if one is not versed in mythology and certain geographical centres and for example how Voodoo itself was brought from to Haiti.

The Big Dipper and their locatins being the historical centres, but one should also provide insight how the Pleiades as the Seven Daughters of Atla play the role and the quite concerning symbolism how the Star Sirius and the the Blazing Star of American Freemasonry are also associated with Pleiades play certain role in these later counter-initiatic centres. One of the main centres was by Guénon suspected to be in California.

Many people here are totally oblivious to Masonic symbolism and especially how certain counter-initiatic oraganizations may adopt Egyptian relics and other psychic religious objectives to produce their Aims, as Guénon suspects in Reign of Quantity.

It saddens that I cannot even discuss this subject further since people here are not literally versed enough or read enough Guénon and literature associated with counter-initiation.

guenon is dumb

>>18503476
>start to practice alchemy and magic
What do you even mean by this

>>18506213
>>18505415
>>18506284

In Islamic Traditions/Hadiths, al-Daijal, as the Master of the Saints of Satan is also said to be one-eyed

>Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: There is never a prophet who has not warned the Ummah of that one-eyed liar; behold he is one-eyed and your Lord is not one-eyed. On his forehead are the letters k f. r. (Kafir).

This is most likely a reference to the Blazing Star of Masonry and Eye of Ra as the Lucifer "Illuminator".

It also implies certain counter-initiatic subversion of Freemasonry and the continuation between the Seven Stars of Big Dipper with the Seven Daughters of Atla as Pleiades.

>>18506213
Imagine larping so hard as an orientalist Muslim that you not only have an opinion on yazidis but consider them a force of world degeneration. The only absolute truth to guenon is how smoothed his brain was.

>>18500500
Based pub

>>18506342
It is also interesting to note the abbrevation of hadiths as "K.F.R." and one-eye symbolism

Especially when taken into account with old Rosicrucian illuminist seals such as this

>"If therefore thine eye be single, thy. whole body shall be full of light"

Some have associated the letters K. F. R (kafir) also being a referennce to Fraternitas Rosy Kross or Frater Christian Rosenkreuz = Kafir

Sad that not many are able to understand the implications here and especially how Rosicrucianism was infiltrated by Weishauptian Illuminators.

>>18506366
>Imagine larping so hard as an orientalist Muslim that you not only have an opinion on yazidis but consider them a force of world degeneration.

Again, you did not even read my posts. You don't understand those centres, even of Yazidis, as being related to Hyperborean history, but even Guénon talks in his books about the initiatic transferrence that also concerns counter-initiation

>This transference, like that of the sapta-riksha from the Great Bear to the Pleiades, corresponds notably with a change of the starting-point of the year: at first the solstice, and then the equinox.

http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/The_Land_of_the_Sun-by_Ren%C3%A9_Gu%C3%A9non.aspx

The fact that certain centres are so easily observable, especially in America and beyond the Atlantic sea, is quite concerning and interesting. It's absolutely futile to continue this discussion with you since you have no idea what Guénon meant by counter-initiation.

>>18506409
>Sad that not many are able to understand the implications here

Then it is on you to correct their ignorance as best you can.

>>18506261
>wrong
right and wrong depend on the distinction between the absolute and relative, reality and appearance, truth and falsehood

>>18506213
Guenon didn't consider Freemasonry to be a counter-initiatory organization, simple as that. He said that it still has a legitimate initiation but is virtual. I am tired of the anti-masonic views of recent traditionalists, Guenon made a clear and final point on this subject.

>>18506433
>It's absolutely futile to continue this discussion with you since you have no idea what Guénon meant by counter-initiation
Like all tradfags he meant that initiation, thing he likes, is holy based, and counter-initiation, thing he doesn't like, is beta cringe.

>>18506469
Again, you don't understand what Guénon meant by those centres and how genuine initiatic circles/centres can be subverted. You haven't read enough of Guénon to understand what he meant by counter-initiation and especially the geographical centres that concern the Big Dipper and transference from Sapta-Riksha to the Pleiades.

>>18506342
The one eye symbolism is also part of the christian tradition.

>>18506500

>>18506481
Yeah when Venus is in Gatorade it makes the electrolytes involute and plants no longer crave it.

>>18506469
Guénon deals lengthily with these pseudo-infiltrationist organizations that appeared in American and various continental Europe in the guise Masonry and Rosicrucianism

It tells much of your ignorance that you treat "Freemasonry" itself as some sort of coherent club and you don't even make a reference what Masonry you are talking about. (ie. continental, or some other)

The fact of the matter is that American "Masonry" can hardly be considered genuine in a sense of certain lineage and even less so the Rosicrucian Traditions of America, that even by Guénon were considered counter-initiatory organizations.

In the light of these, and considering the associationg made with the Blazing Star of American masonry and the importance what the role of Sirius and Pleiades play in their Masonry, it is quite concerning indeed to even associate the abbreviation of k.f.r = Fraternitas Rosen Kreuz

>Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: There is never a prophet who has not warned the Ummah of that one-eyed liar; behold he is one-eyed and your Lord is not one-eyed. On his forehead are the letters k f. r. (Kafir).

Hope you are not seriously arguing, that for example the Rosicrucianism that AMORC represents in America is somehow genuine Rosicrucianism? Even Guénon deals the counter-initiation aspect of it in Theosophy: History of a Pseudo-Religion and associated persons that were connected to the founding of it.

>>18506506
>>18506500
That is totally unrelated to the subject we are talking here. Counter-initiation adopts the symbols of genuine traditions, this is repeated by Guénon probably in every book he talks about the counter-initiation.

>>18506521
>Hope you are not seriously arguing, that for example the Rosicrucianism that AMORC represents in America is somehow genuine Rosicrucianism?
I never said that
>The fact of the matter is that American "Masonry" can hardly be considered genuine in a sense of certain lineage
Where did Guenon claimed that american freemasonry is illegitimate? Also, the first american freemasons came from Europe(obviously), even at a time when you could say that freemasonry wasn't as degenerated as today, so how is its lineage any different from the European one?
>>18506530
Guenon talked about the all-seeing eye in his book "Symbols of Sacred Science", and there is no allusion in there that the freemasonry uses it in a counter-initiatic way.
Be honest now, you just like Guenon's concept of counter-initiation and you apply it where you want, this is your problem but at least don't associate yourself with Guenon's work.

>>18506597
>Be honest now, you just like Guenon's concept of counter-initiation and you apply it where you want, this is your problem but at least don't associate yourself with Guenon's work.
I am being honest and it is clear that you don't understand what Guénon meant by counter-initiation, not only that, you seem to be totally ignorant what is/was the Hyperborean tradition, how it relates to Atlantean tradition, and how it in turn relates to initiation and counter-initiation

Why would I even discuss this matter with you? You have obviously not read Et les Sept Tours du Diable, you have most obviously not read Guénon's letters, you don't understand what the Seven centres of Big Dipper mean and how they related to more Modern times, you haven't even read Les Sept têtes du Dragon Vert that Guénon himself considered extremely disturbing document how it relates to counter-initiation.

Again, most of this information regarding Guénon and masonry and the Unknown Superiors would be readily available to you by reading the 2005 study L'ENIGME RENE GUENON ET LES SUPERIEURS INCONNUS : CONTRIBUTION A L'ET. DE L'HIST. MOND. SOUTERRAINE by Maistre Louis ( THE RENE GUENON ENIGMA AND THE UNKNOWN SUPERIORS: CONTRIBUTION TO THE ET. OF THE HIST. WORLD. SUBTERRAIN HISTORY)

But again, you do not understand implications of such documents and you are unable to read French. I don't want to talk with you since you seem to have some sort of hubris that "You understand what Guénon meant, but I don't"

When it is clear to any observer here that you are talking about a subject you don't have the slightest understanding or even knowledge.

If anything, my understanding of counter-initiation is 100% in accordance what Guénon meant by such thing.

>>18506284
I just ordered the Spiritist Fallacy
We shall discuss counter initiation soon anon

>>18506342
Odin is one eyed too

>>18506639
I read more than half of Guenon's letters, I translated them from google archive.
There is no allusion in Guenon's work that the counter-initiatic centers have something to do with Freemasonry, he never said that the californian center is related to Freemasonry.
>When it is clear to any observer here that you are talking about a subject you don't have the slightest understanding or even knowledge.
What is clear to any observer here is that you are talking a lot, but say little. You are jumping from topic to topic just to make others believe that you have a lot of knowledge. This subject was about Guenon and Freemasonry. I can also talk about the parallels between masonic symbolism and the Universal Man, to show you that masonic initiation is related to the higher states of the being, and NOT to shamanism, magic and psychism, so it has nothing to do with those centers. Guenon lived just a century ago and he knew a lot more about freemasonry that you do, he personally knew freemasons(being one himself) so he also knew that Freemasonry is still working and it can serve as a support for spiritual realization. And going back to his letters, he wrote that there is no opposition between the Islamic/Christian path and Freemasonry.

>>18501478
I don't agree with perennialism but this is interesting, where can I read more about it?
How do you distinguish sub-dimensional entities from supra-dimensional ones?

>>18506284
So basically everything cool about astrotheology is an evil plot of the Antichrist? wow, based antichrist. Hail to the Beast!

>>18502982
Gypsies are dumber Jews.

>>18506639
https://oeuvre-de-rene-guenon.blogspot.com/2013/07/les-positions-pseudo-guenoniennes-de.html
Since you were so proud that you can read in french, read this.

>>18506747
Answer me this single question:

Who/what do you think the Unknown Superiors of Masonry are?

>>18506753
I got u senpai

>>18506788

>>18506444
maybe the flatness of your logic here is the reason for it missing from our current world. Out of curiosity, what sect are you identifying with?

>>18501478
>Ayys and UFOs only started appearing after the first nuclear bomb was dropped.
Wrong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1561_celestial_phenomenon_over_Nuremberg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1566_celestial_phenomenon_over_Basel

>>18506799

>>18506806

>>18506806
>>18506799
>>18506788
This is literally just Chris-chan's Sonichu dimentional merge the beta

>>18506814
Last one

>>18500500
this is a dumb meme thinker and not a real philosopher

>>18505415
>His opinion on Freemasonry is just wrong. Freemasonry has its roots in medieval masonry
Wrong
That's a masonic myth
Debunked

>>18506747
>to show you that masonic initiation is related to the higher states of the being, and NOT to shamanism, magic and psychism,

But this is where you are wrong again and show your ignorance, even by Guénon's standards. Even Albert Pike (who held Guénon in great respect) talks of Aub, The Serpent Power and its relation Astral Light

The fact that this IS related to Obeah of shamanism/sorcery may come as a shock to you, for the two words are etymologically related to the very word Aub/Ob as Serpent/Ophidian Vibrations

The fact that even Guénon's book on Freemasonry has chapter on "Concerning the Unknown Superiors and the Astral"

You seem to come from a perspective you do not understand the terms you are reading, how they are etymologically, historically and related in context and you treat them separate and somehow unrelated tells of your ignorance relating to initiate symbolism and even reading comprehension

>>18506834
>Even Albert Pike (who held Guénon in great respect)

I mean who Guénon held in great respect. At least Guénon considered Pike as genuine initiate or something along that line.

>>18506816
So ur saying Chris-Chan is /trad/pilled?
/trans/pilled seems counter initiatory though..

>>18506834
"To this we might very well object that the so-called Mahatmas were invented precisely on the more or less distorted model of the true Unknown Superiors" - chapter "Concerning the unknown superiors and the astral" from Guenon's book on Freemasonry. So he makes a clear distinction between the Theosophical and counter-initiatic imitation of the Unknown Superiors and the real ones. The real ones being the Masonic ones. He also wrote in that chapter about the fantasies of anti-masons concerning Them.

>>18506284
Guénon is wrong several times, I think.
For example, in his criticism of theosophy he has made several factual mistakes, and there are answers from theosophists in French.
But to take an example that is close to my heart: listening to Guénon, Crowley is only a black magician, a clown and a member of the counter-tradition.
Okay, that's what everyone thinks about Crowley at first sight. But when you dig deeper, you realize that his works are surprisingly much deeper than what you might think, that behind his provocative and polemical public outbursts he is totally in line with the European tradition of the hermetic kabbalah, that he warns many times against the "black brothers" and that his system is clearly built towards the union with God, the Good, and not some satanist nonsense.

So the tradition/counter-tradition lens alone is myopic.

>>18505914
> Don't tell the trads they're actually Buddhists
the distinction between absolute and relative corresponds exactly to that between reality and appearances, it’s not some rare and novel insight of Buddhists but it predates them and is found in many religions and philosophies

Buddhists have their head up their own ass when they act like nobody else realized that appearances might not be identical with reality

>>18506826
Guenon (pbuh) supercedes philosophy

>>18506469
>Guenon made a clear and final point on this subject.
But masonry has evolved since his observation, and has become seriously worse.

>>18506871
>nobody else realized that appearances might not be identical with reality
Well where this gets interesting is what sort of stuff you make up about the reality you don't experience.

>>18506639
>and the Unknown Superiors
Please elaborate about that
Crowley also talks about them

>>18506846
if you believe hordes of interdimensional demons are creeping through fissures in reality then you HAVE to also believe Sonichu is one of those demons

As much as I am a Guenonian
As much as the UFO = demon theory I really can't take it seriously
It seems obvious to me, when we study the case, that UFOs are technological

>>18506892
There’s no way to prove that anyone is making anything up about such realities, that these realities are not immediately apparent to everyone does not disprove their existence or show that they are made up because some teachings say that it can only be directly known through intense spiritual practice.

>>18506911
UFOs are either demons or they don't exist

>>18506799
reads like harry potter fan fiction
0/10 would not devote my entire life to unlocking the mysteries of this dudes DnD campaign

>>18506639
>L'ENIGME RENE GUENON ET LES SUPERIEURS INCONNUS : CONTRIBUTION A L'ET. DE L'HIST. MOND. SOUTERRAINE by Maistre Louis
Ce livre est anti-Guénon
Tu supportes sa thèse ?

>>18506921
What are your arguments for this claim?

>>18506911
I also agree with that view, although I accept that there’s a chance I could be wrong (no way to know for sure). Or that they could be genuine aliens from another planet, but if they start interacting with humans and the sum result ends up being a negative influence on humanity, it could be true that them being ‘demons’ was a symbolism for their bad/unhelpful influence on humanity, possibly through causing some people to abandon religion and things of that nature.

>>18506924
You sound like a demonic ayy
>I-its n-nothing goys!

>>18506920
There's no way to prove they exist.

>>18506853
Do you even understand what that quote means?

It is clear you are once again quoting Guénon without any sort of connection to any initiate or symbolical Understanding

The Lower Astral Light of Theosophy or their Mathamas is associated with the lower shells, the "magic" used by ventriloquist, necromancers; the special “fire” of black magic whence Obi, Obeah are derived from. These are the Qliphoth

But the higher is that of Azoth and concerns the Great Work and they are above the Supernals and associated with the Supernal Triad that is the Arcanum Arcanorum

>There are indeed people who, by working more consciously and with a more extensive knowledge (and this does not mean knowledge of a higher order) might be able to make use of these same forces for quite different ends, unbeknown to the 'shamans' or those whose work is similar, for they act as nothing more than mere instruments for accumulating the forces in question at pre-determined points. It is known that there are in the world a certain number of 'repositories' of influences, the distribution of which is certainly no matter of chance, serving only too well the designs of the 'powers' responsible for the whole modern deviation; but that demands some further explanations, for it may seem surprising at first sight that the remains of what was once an authentic tradition should lend themselves to a 'subversion' of this kind.
-Guénon - Shamanism and Sorcery

One should absolutely be concerned about certain Egyptian obelisks, religious monuments and others that are are employed by Masonic symbolism in America, especially related to those of Heliopolis and certain other deviated symbolism and especially the nature of Unknown Superiors what the American Masonry invokes with their rites. Especially the symbolism connected to Great Pyramid (that Guénon also finds suspect) and the relation it has to Pleaides, Sirius among others.

>It is said by certain Initiates that to obtain Spiritual gifts, and to aid Nature, the Sacrament should be as it were a Nuptial of the Folk of Earth; but that Magick is of the Demon, and that by a certain Perversion of the Office, may be created Elementals fit to perform the Will of the Magician.
-De Arte Magica concerning Azoth

>>18506868
This

>>18506946
So? That doesn’t prove that they don’t exist or prove that they are made up, and that point you raise in itself is not something which dissuades people who take the subject seriously and it doesn’t present a serious challenge to their worldview, and there are many mystics, yogis etc who give coherent accounts of what its like to experience those realities

>>18506982
>That doesn’t prove that they don’t exist or prove that they are made up
It does, actually.

>>18506982
There is a great debate to be had in our time, in all occult circles in the broadest sense (including Guenonian), about the reality of the things we talk about, I think.
By this I mean that with our modern understanding of science, we have a very precise conception of reality (objectivable and quantifiable), and that we should define what reality we attribute to the astral, to magic, to demons, etc.
I will not say that everything is, in a psychological sense, but for example: I have already felt demons and astral, and every time these things, in me as in others, have failed all the tests of objectivity (for example, someone who tries to come to my house in the astral and tells me what I have written somewhere). It is necessary to explain why these experiences, although real, lack objectivity. Same with the chakras, etc.

Honestly though, we should just fucking quit reading this schizo shit. Just stop reading it

Take the fucking vaccine, wear the mask. Join some local Mason group, it's about universal brotherhood in the end

We cant fucking this ufo shit is too much you cannot go live like this, just ignore it. Take the fucking vaccine and enjoy life, go have sex or something this fucking MADNESS cannot go on

Put these childish things away

>>18507014
As Crowley said :

>In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.
>It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them.

>>18506990
No it doesn’t, what is your argument for claiming the inaccessibility of those realities to everyone disproves the existence of those realities? If they can only be directly accessed by a select few who undertake rigorous procedures that the average person and average skeptic are not willing to dedicate themselves to, then there is no inherent reason they should be able to be measured with scientific instruments or freely available to everyone. That in itself though proves nothing about said realities existence or inexistence. The existence of something is not determined by the amount of people that can perceive it, but that existence is independent of people’s ability to perceive it.

What are some alternatives to Traditionalism? I don't agree with the view on perennialism and initiation or their metaphysics, but I don't see many good alternatives

>>18507034
>Take the fucking vaccine, wear the mask. Join some local Mason group, it's about universal brotherhood in the end
Lmao
Good golem

>>18507048
Theosophy is pretty good. It is about the primordial unity of religions, same as traditionalism. But you can still have sex

>>18507014
>It is necessary to explain why these experiences, although real, lack objectivity
Is it possible that it isn't real, that your brain is just constantly interpreting senses and making up shit because if it doesn't it means it's not turned on and you're dead.

>>18506213
>Hyperborean
>Atlantean
These are fake places. You can't be a "degenerate" tradition of a nonexistent tradition.

>>18507053
Yes

Thanks everyone ITT for explaining this dude so that I know it's Crowley tier LARP. I can bow thankfully avoid it.

>>18507014
>>18507040
So the consensus is that these things do not have independent existence divorced from subjective experience?
Doesn't Jung have a point then?

>>18507041
>The existence of something is not determined by the amount of people that can perceive it
Unless it's "a select few who undertake rigorous procedures that the average person and average skeptic are not willing to dedicate themselves to" apparently...

In their most simplest terms Hyperborea is vertical, North, Pure spiritual, the immovable centre. Tradition before time. The Top of the World Egg (if shape of Earth is taken as an Egg as Cosmic/Primordial Egg)

The Atlantean has Beginning and End, it is connected to movement. East-West, it has a beginning and End. South is pure materia secunda.

They are associated with Geography, but Hyperborea is before Time, so as to place is it in History would be wrong for the beginning of (linear) Time must have its beginning also in the Atlantean.

>>18507091
Yeah so its symbolic and Guenon was wrong when he talked about history

>>18507048
Mahayana

>>18507070
>Unless it's "a select few who undertake rigorous procedures that the average person and average skeptic are not willing to dedicate themselves to" apparently...
Yes, that’s what I’m saying, compete enlightenment, spiritual enlightenment, union with God, the Tao, whatever you want to call it, if this is dealing with something which is transcendent to the phenomenal world, transcendent to the laws of physics, the origin of the phenomenal world and physics and what sustains them; then there is nothing fundamentally illogical about saying it can only be directly known by the exceptional person who achieves spiritual perfection, there is nothing illogical about saying it cannot be measured by science or that its inaccessible to most people. And none of this disproves its existence because the perception of the masses is not the measure of what ultimately exists.

>>18507103
Yeah but it's because you talk about a subjective state
Every claim that Guenon or the occultists make about the world
Like astral
Magic
Demons
Etc
Is testable

I hate this place, you ruined Guenon

>>18507131
Don't say that my dude

>>18507103
>something which is transcendent to the phenomenal world
Assuming this exists transcendently to reality, you have no way of demonstrating it to those otherwise incapable of grasping it. Also no way to prove it isn't just a higher level of phenomena which requires more complex faculties to apprehend. Is the federal government of the United States relevant to the umwelt of a tick? Would the three branches of the one republic have any bearing on its reality of sucking blood and going dormant when there is no blood?

>>18507131
>approves or not guenon based on lit
Filtered

>>18506868
Nobody answers?

>>18507131
I can't wait for guenon to be over and for /lit/ to become a Bataillean board

>>18507052
Theosophy is bullshit though

>>18507146
Then so is its seed, perennialism. Regression of castes and so forth

>>18506834
"As regards the Anglo-Saxon Masons, I believe like you that there are more chances to establish fraternal relations on the side of America than of England"
- Correspondence from René Guénon to Edmond Gloton of May 17, 1947
Ha!

>>18506868
>>18507140

What is there to answer? Crowley considered Abrahamic and old traditions to have become "ineffective" in the New Aeon

It's not that "old" spirituality is somehow less genuine, but Crowley considered that converting to Islam, Christianity etc. was like bringing a wooden sword to a fight where there are gunpowder weaponry.

His "Law of Thelema" was to provide a (religious) framework to survive through the Aeon of Horus. Religions like Islam, Christianity, Buddhism etc. were considered part of the "Age of Osiris", and Paganism and pre-monotheistic religions were part of the "Age of Isis" etc.

I mean of course, from the point of view of Guénon and perennialists, Crowley is counter-initiation, this is from the Book of the Law:
>49. I am in a secret fourfold word, the blasphemy against all gods of men.
>50. Curse them! Curse them! Curse them!
>51. With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.
>52. I flap my wings in the face of Mohammed & blind him.
>53. With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din.

So yes, Crowley rejected Christianity, Islam, the Systems of the Indians, Buddhits, Mongol and Din (Judaism).

>One must not for a moment suppose that this verse supports the historicity of 'Jesus.' 'Jesus' is not, and never was, a man; but he was a 'god,' just as a bundle of old rags and a kerosene tin on a bush may be a 'god.' There is a man-made idea, built of ignorance, fear, and meanness, for the most part, which we call 'Jesus,' and which has been tricked out from time to time with various gauds from Paganism, and Judaism.

>Mohammed's point of view is wrong too; but he needs no such sharp correction as 'Jesus.' It is his face – his outward semblance – that is to be covered with His wings. The tenets of Islam, correctly interpreted, are not far from our Way of Life and Light and Love and Liberty. This applies especially to the secret tenets. The external creed is mere nonsense suited to the intelligence of the peoples among whom it was promulgated; but even so, Islam is Magnificent in practice.

>“The Indian.” The religion of Hindustan, metaphysically and mystically comprehensive enough to assure itself the possession of much truth, is in practice almost as superstitious and false as Christianity, a faith of slaves, liars and dastards. The same remarks apply roughly to Buddhism.

>'Mongol:” presumably the reference is to Confucianism, whose metaphysical and ethical flawlessness has not saved its adherents from losing those ruder virtues which are proper to a Fighting Animal, and thus yielding at last a civilization coeval with history itself to the barbarous tribes of Europe.

>“Din” – 'severity' or 'judgment' may refer to the Jewish Law, rather than to the Faith (ad 'din') of Islam. Assuming this, the six religions whose flesh must be torn out cover the whole globe outside Islam and Christianity.

>>18507115
Testable by yourself but not reproducible

>>18506955
It's good to see you back, counter-initiation anon. Your posts make /trad/ threads fun to read through again.

I'm currently reading Vectors of the Counter-Initiation, and Upton confirms my suspicions that there are agents who are co-opting Tradtionalism/Perennialism for there own nefarious ends. Prince Charles is obviously one such person, and Alexandr Dugin is probably one too, and perhaps Julius Evola and Frithjof Schuon are also unwittingly agents of counter-initiation but given how sincere they both were, Evola and Schuon would've done things differently if they had known. Who else do you think are wolves in sheep's clothing?

>>18507168
>What is there to answer?
This >>18507014

>>18507170
And not objective
How can one know that it's not just psychological/made by the brain then?

>>18507180
Well yes >>18507069

>>18507101
I don't agree with Buddhism
>>18507148
Yes I think perennialism isn't true. I'm looking for alternative models that make actual sense.

>>18507173
>Who else do you think are wolves in sheep's clothing?

It's hard to say some individuals or persons. I think Evola was more correct when he talked of counter-initiation that they are like huge forces of nature, impersonal dissolutive influences of Kali-Yuga itself.

http://www.juliusevola.net/excerpts/The_Secret_Causes_of_History_and_The_Protocols_of_the_Learned_Elders_of_Zion.html
>These causes are responsible for almost undetectable ideological, social, and political changes, which eventually produce remarkable effects: they are like the first cracks in a layer of snow that eventually produce an avalanche. These causes almost never act in a direct manner, but instead bestow to some existing processes an adequate direction that leads to the designated goal.

I think this "direction" is a great term by Evola. I mean look at the "Great Reset" agenda many different parties are pushing currently. Be it WHO, Vatican, "Build Back Better" or whatever Agenda.

It is hard to say some one person that exemplifies counter-initiation or dissolutive forces of Kali-Yuga. In my opinion, and at the very best, I can only identify certain cultural events (especially what happened here in Europe before World War I and World War II) and point out certain individuals. Same could be maybe said of certain cults and personages in 1960s California and what lead to the whole Hippie "Age of Aquarius Space Brotherhood" type of stuff.

Some people are just at the "right place at the right time", it's a different matter to say are they controlled by forces outside themselves or forces inside themselves. There is this medieval saying "Vir sapiens dominabitur astris" = The wise man will rule the stars

Many interpreted to mean that while some people are ruled by certain planetary hours, planetary influences (like Jupiter brings you bad luck, Saturn gives you death etc.) the Virtuous man, the Vir, or True Man, can overcome such lower influences and succeed despite all Odds in his astrological chart etc and he would thus "rule the Stars" as opposed the planetary, starry influences ruling/controlling over his life.

>>18507213
V
>>18507014

>>18507173
What can I say of Dugin that in my opinion, every "King has their Court Wizard" and Dugin is pushing some sort of Eurasian supremacy that is probably in line with Putin's geopolitical ambitions

Did not the concept of British Empire develop under the aegis of the Enochian Channeler John Dee? I think many would argue that John Dee was counter-initiation

One can only take a deep dive to Nazi regime and SS and see these "occult/counter-initiatic" individuals at work. It's a deep rabbit hole, but more than often, they are more or less connected to power structures of nations.

This also came not long ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Korean_political_scandal

Basically some Three Shamans were said to rule South Korea "behind the throne" etc. Some may remember it as many threads on 4chan were about this one too.

>>18507136
No but you see tick god made ticks special beings on this planet and tick history is cyclical and now is the tick end times, only the select few ticks with a tick homeless that drink psychedelic blood are aware of the federal government of the United States
That's what a tick in france said at least

>>18507263
>now is the tick end times
I mean this might be true? If humans go all in on the eat the bugs movement, those ticks could be a good source of protein. French tick was right!

>>18507014
>It is necessary to explain why these experiences, although real, lack objectivity. Same with the chakras, etc.

They are by very definition deceptive, even people like Alessandro Cagliostro are not remember for developing the Rite of Misraim, but they are mostly remembered as con-men, forgeres and swindlers

Most than often they are labelled as charlatans, quacks etc. and they might be connected to espionage and other subversive activities (for example Crowley wrote/published of German propaganda and British propaganda and many suppose he was connected to the British espionage pursuits)

For me these forces and personages personify like certain Bee or Ant-like society structures where there is a War of Brains and War of Subversion going on. The "Gross" humans are viewed as huge masses to be manipulated by certain individuals, like some foreign ant colony spraying some prehormones or grandular excretions so as to initiate political upheaval or war with the other ant tribe etc. )

I really don't care if it is a result of "magic" or some carefully planned psychotronic warfare if the end result is same. To me it seems that in the case of Theosophy the "miracles" worked by the "Mahatmas" were secondary, the political implications it achieved were far greater in terms of results

>>18507173
There is also Seyyed Hosein Nasr, who had CIA affiliations and had some role in the regime change of Iran.

>>18507317
>There is also Seyyed Hosein Nasr, who had CIA affiliations

He did? There has always been something "off" looking about him, a little glow or something, hard to put it. Some villain like quality to him. I remember listening some lecture of his on Youtube though.

>>18507296
But what do u think of magick, astral, etc, per se, ontologically?
Real ?
Why not objective then?
Psychological?

>>18500500
>eventually money will disappear altogether to be replaced by lists of numbers.
cryptobros...

>>18507333
crypto is satanic

>>18507136
>Assuming this exists transcendently to reality, you have no way of demonstrating it to those otherwise incapable of grasping it.
So? I’m not denying that, I don’t know why you feel the need to keep stating that over and over, that point you raise does not itself show that such realities don’t exist, what you say poses no challenge to the beliefs or worldview of the religious person who believes in such things, it presents no challenge to the Yogis who say they have reached it. It seems you are confusing what is a problem for your personal beliefs with something thats a problem for everything, this subject may be the former but it’s certainly not the latter.
> Also no way to prove it isn't just a higher level of phenomena which requires more complex faculties to apprehend
>Also no way to prove it isn't just a higher level of phenomena which requires more complex faculties to apprehend.
People can speculate about hypotheticals to no end, I see no reason why this is of any relevance or why its even worth considering.

>>18507148
Theosophy isnt the seed of perennialism, perennialism stretches back into the medieval era and also late antiquity, pre-Christian India and so forth

>>18507327
Well, you are asking for objectivity, or definite, objective results. Aleister Crowley writes in his De Arte Magica about this very problem:

>We have marked subtly and regularly, the conditions and results of divers Workings of
this Art, and this is the marvel now the Result follows swift and perfect, now again a group of lesser Results symapthetic to the Result willed, now but slight movements imitative of that Result, and now not only perfect failure, but the sudden reversal of all hopes in despair and ruin.

>More plainly, if X be the Object __of the Work, the__result is sometimes X, sometimes x x x x, sometimes \/(x), sometimes -\/(x), or -x x x x, or -X.

>In the concrete, suppose that one worketh this Art to obtain a great sum. Then at one time that sum will arrive that same night or within (say) 48 hours after, or an event occur involving the gain of that sum; at another time there will merely arise a group of circumstances favourable; at another time again a lesser sum will arrive; but also these may be reversed, in the worst case the loss of the sum proposed or the occurance of an event which might involve that loss, or at least disappoint some reasonable expectation of that gain.

Again, I do not know what is the Objective. Perhaps if one was to cause some sort Great Effect one would also need some sort of Great "Magical Link"

Crowley writes of this Magical Link:
>The Magical Link is the connection made in a magical operation between the Will of the magician and the desired object to be affected. The Link can take almost any form, but is commonly described in terms of a talisman (e.g. "To impose one's Will on a nation, for instance, one's talisman may be a newspaper, one's triangle a church, or one's circle a Club."—Magick, Ch 14).
>Aleister Crowley divided it into three main categories: (1) one plane and one person, (2) one plane and two or more persons, and (3) two planes. In the first case, the Link is between the self and something about the self to be changed, such as learning a skill or ridding one's self of a habit. In the second, it is between the magician and objects outside his immediate control, such as gaining information or seducing someone. In the third case, the Link is between the magician and something that is independent of or indifferent to mankind, such as the weather.

But then again, one could argue that even a small gesture could produce a butterfly effect or something.

The counter-initiatic Solar Lodge claimed at least using as their Magical Link Richard Nixon's hair. This is because one of their members was Nixon's barber (or barber at a shop who Nixon used to visit). I don't want to go to some metaphysical Voodoo speculation does Hair contain some sort of anima and thus making some sort of doll out Nixon hair could "influence" his actions etc. or something like that. How can there be objectivity to that? I still think many, especially in places like Haiti, are absolutely terrified of Voodoo.

Magick is literally fantasy. It's LARP layered in tons of obscurantism, often paired with propaganda tier political polemics that is like fly shit to midwits.

>>18500500
>People complain about Guenon threads
>His threads are always the best with the most effort posts
Makes you think

>>18507173
Guenon himself is an agent of the counter-initiation. He was literally a freemason who try to co-opt all major religious traditions into annihilationist monism, when they all actually teach theistic union, which some call qualified non-dualism.

Aquinas, Ramanuja, Ibn Arabi...all the way back to the very primordial sources of the religion teach this. Guenon subverted it to sap the life of all major religions. He didn't even read what he was talking about and with through his followers has done massive damage to religious studies.

>>18507168
interesting

>>18507397
>I still think many, especially in places like Haiti, are absolutely terrified of Voodoo.
Yeah because they're superstitious 70 IQ cavemen.

>>18507410
Like fly shit? Lol

>>18507397
Simply put:
Do you think a magic spell can be objective? For example to move an object
Or that the astral is objective? For example, that someone can come to my house and see a hidden note that I have written

I have the impression that none of these phenomena pass the objectivity test
That everything is psychological

>>18507333
crypto is about to crash with no survivors...imagine thinking that predicting digitalization of currency is genius, literally everyone has made that claim

>>18507173
How can you not think the freemasons Rene Guenon and Ivan Agueli weren't counter-initiation?

>>18507397
>I don't want to go to some metaphysical Voodoo speculation does Hair contain some sort of anima and thus making some sort of doll out Nixon hair could "influence" his actions etc. or something like that.
Hindus believe the excess prana or life force is stored in the hair. The biblical Samson also comes to mind, how he was able to bring the whole courthouse to collapse after his locks were cut.

>>18507487
Not him but I think you're right
People shit on Jung for psychologizing the metaphysical but I think it was justified. Not to say there aren't metaphysical truths but I think the means to reach them are inherently idiosyncratic and not objective like the traditionalists say

Umm...Rene Guenon wants you to fuse into THIS?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saduVLAmrSY

>>18507394
>People can speculate about hypotheticals to no end, I see no reason why this is of any relevance or why its even worth considering.
You don't see how this is essential to the entire problem of the absolute reality which you claim exists on the basis of a grab bag of authorities?

>>18507530
>Not to say there aren't metaphysical truths but I think the means to reach them are inherently idiosyncratic and not objective like the traditionalists say

Nothing the freemasons ever said was accurate once you read the primary texts.

>>18507487
>Do you think a magic spell can be objective?For example to move an object

What do you mean? Like with your mind?

This is also said in Crowley's "De Arte Magica"
>And in all these matters reason must be the guide, and experience the teacher, so that the adept
seek not to perform things impossible in Nature, and so blaspheme the Sacrament and bring it
to comtempt.
>Yet let this be said, that to the consumate and sublime Initiate it may seem that of Himself was
it written: "With God all things are possible."
>However, God Himself is not found to interfere arbitrarily with the course of Nature, but to
work within His laws.
>Let the Adept act not otherwise

I think this sort of Hollywood magic is just a pipe dream. Like flying in the air etc.

And even if it is true? It would probably be for the "Magician" to be easier to fake such trick to the audience with some machinery or other tricks so as to make it seem that he is flying through the air. Who cares about the objective reality of such "levitation" if the effect on the audience is the same?

>Or that the astral is objective? For example, that someone can come to my house and see a hidden note that I have written

I've read lots of Theosophist and other Occult woo how one must develop "astral senses" so as to see objects in the astral etc. and to become more and more sensitive

What if one would want to "meet" someone on the astral, lets say he is situated in another country? Again if we take the "magic works within the laws of nature" it probably would be better to have some stupid Internet meeting with this guy in another country.

Same could be said of Telepathy. I've thought about some friend I have not seen/talked to in years, and the same second I receive a message from that said friend that says something like "Long time no see". Was that sort of Telepathy? Well it probably cannot be repeated, it just comes out of the blue

>>18507487
Good intuition. It's magical thinking retardation.

>>18507397

Affecting national attitudes with a newspaper isn't magic. You can't control someone with a hair doll. Every attempt to verify magic has ended up with the magician being exposed as a charlatan.

L. Ron Hubbard did the same shit and claimed to use a magical process to give people perfect recall and memory. It turned out to be a grift.

Crowley was himself a grifter.

To be sure, esoterica can be useful to artists, since the symbols and mindset can be conducive to creating novel artwork, but nowhere has it ever been shown to have the slightest effect on the material world through things we would call magic.

Literally any system can cause psychological effects if you trick retard into believing it. This isn't magic.

Crowley borrowed the symbolism of old pseudoscientific systems and mystical traditions, bastardized them, and then used them to play dress up with other rich kids.

Grown men larping, that's what the golden age of esoteric orders in the early 20th century amounted to. That they covered this larp in obscurantism and appeals to Hindu thought doesn't change what it is.

>>18507541
As I said it's subjective

>>18507547
Astral communication isn't real so yeah, Zoom works better.

As to, "does it really matter if I'm actually flying or if the audience thinks I am, " this is literal grifter cope. Of course it matters. If you could really fly you wouldn't need to purchase airline tickets. You could free solo climb anything you want and just start floating if you fell. If you could control the weather you could end droughts.

Occultists can't do anything but grift or else they, generally being attention whores, would have showed off their non-existent powers. It's childish fantasy

>>18507497
It's worse than that. Currency primarily existed as numbers on a page in ancient Greece too. It's the type of musing that seems deep if you have never read anything on monetary systems, but which actually belies a total lack of knowledge about the topic. Add in some conspiratorial flavor, and you have a recipe for attracting brainlets.

Dunning-Krueger in full effect.

>>18507582
How embarrassing.

>>18507553
guenon holds magic in extremely low regard

>>18507591
He said some stuff that sounds exactly like believing in magic though. But for some reason his critiques never apply to himself. Just how he would criticize certain mystical aspects of Egyptian Sufism yet trance out in dhikr and shake and tremble when you tried to wake up him from his mystical trance when it was time to go.

https://www.gornahoor.net/?p=4835
"Unfortunately, the weather is very bad since we have been here: storms, gales, almost continual rain; it is truly not summer weather. However, here, it typically gets much better, and the sky is not at all the same as in the region of Paris, but this year, the sun is almost always absent. There are neither mountains nor hills, at most some vineyards; but there are forests very close to Blois, and we can go for a number of hikes nearby." ~ Letter from Guenon to Guido de Giorgio.
Imagine going hiking with Guenon, while discussing about metaphysics...

>>18507570
>>18507553

Well the only objectivity I can give you is that I've achieved certain financial freedom or retirement using "magical" logic or well, in regards to an investment that enabled me to eventually quit my job and also retire.

I never did any sort of "ritual" to attract money or anything like that, but it would be akin going to a horse race and put all your eggs in one basket on a horse that you don't know nothing else about (with 3000 other horses), but only a name.

This is not a proof of anything, coincidences happen all the time, but it was a series of long, seemingly disconnected symbolical events for me that culminated putting all my money into an asset that eventually made me more money than I could have ever made working a normal 9 to 5 job. My only "proof" is that I never used any formal logic towards it or some sort of sharp business-like cold and calculating intelligence. It was a decision that was solely chosen through numerology and symbolism relevant to myself.

Regarding magic, do things like astral projection and lucid dreaming count as such even though they can lead to genuine realizations? Tibetans use LD for example, and spiritual alchemy is all about AP

>>18507461
>Aquinas, Ramanuja, Ibn Arabi...all the way back to the very primordial sources of the religion teach this.
Thats wrong, because the Upanishads, which are revealed scriptures, teach Advaita, and not Vishishtadvaita.

pbuh

>>18507535
>You don't see how this is essential to the entire problem of the absolute reality
How is it even a problem to begin with? Again, remember that we are not just talking about you and your beliefs (try not to be self- or ego-centered for a moment)

>which you claim exists on the basis of a grab bag of authorities?
How is this a problem at all? The ideas are coherent, mystics give coherent accounts of them, the teachings related to them bring people spiritual satisfaction, and the people who are into this stuff typically find that these teachings either intuitively make sense or that they are confirmed by their own experience through yoga, meditation, scriptural study etc, why do you feel the need to obnoxiously try to insert yourself between these people and the teachings they follow, in order to claim that none of it is legitimate unless it meets your arbitrary standard?

Did Guenon write anything about peoples' attempts to fuse politics with religion, with esoteric hitlerists coming to mind

>>18507655
That's not what Upanishads translators say, but if some functional heroin addict freemason said so then okay, I will annihilate my soul.

>>18507728
Guenon advocated against getting involved in politics, especially de-colonization efforts, contrary to Coomaraswamy and other famous Sufis like Emir Abdelkader.

>>18506409
It's also suspect that there was such a thing as "Rosicrucianism" even though there were in all likelihood no initiated Rosicrucians or anyone who met authentically under those auspices,

>>18506284
Where do you find things on Masonic symbolism? I know there are Guenon's books. Most books by popularly known masons seem to be pointless and/or fantastic.

>>18506513
Lmao

>>18500500
good, you read non fiction

>>18507461
>they all actually teach theistic union, which some call qualified non-dualism
this

>>18506924
>DnD
It's more along the lines of Mage: The Ascension.

>>18507461
>they all actually teach theistic union
what does that entail? what happens to the consciousness of the indivdual and our relationship to the Divine when that takes place?

>>18507570
>>18507625
>Occultists can't do anything but grift or else they, generally being attention whores, would have showed off their non-existent powers. It's childish fantasy

As I said, I cannot outright just make these claims that it is not thing and these things do not exist etc.

Maybe some individuals are more sensitive than others? I certainly, apart from that investment experience, do not have any real life magic stories such as levitation and telepathy

Few years ago I was hiking up in a forest terrain unfamiliar to me and it was a extremely thick forest where I also kinda lost my sense of direction. Then I went a sudden "pull" to this direction and I decided to go "see" what's in the direction of that "pull"

When I got "there" I found this "rock grave/rock mound" (I don't what they are called in English) and inside of them have more rocks put in a spiral pattern. It has been speculated that they used to serve some sort of ritualistic purpose for offerings and burial grounds etc.

Of course I am not claiming I am some sensitive individual who can sense some "energy vortexes", but it was quite literally a thick forest and I walked straight up to this burial site with no prior knowledge of the geography of the place

>>18507787
Well, the advaitins are reincarnated as african-americans.

>>18507791
how do you bushcraft without getting lost?

I am scared electrical interference rendering my compass and other electronic devices obsolete

>>18507803
kek, didnt know the mormons followed bishishtadvaita

>>18507728
in East and West, he says politics should be avoided

>>18507808
*vishishtadvaita

>>18507811
Is that the book where he wrote about the east without ever having set foot there, let alone the middle east?

>>18507805
The birds guide me

I talk the language of the birds
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_the_birds
>In the Quran, Suleiman (Solomon) and David are said to have been taught the language of the birds.[6] Within Sufism, the language of birds is a mystical divine language. The Conference of the Birds is a mystical poem of 4647 verses by the 12th century Persian poet Attar of Nishapur

I have been many times lost in the forest, but the birds have saved me and given me direction. They tell me where to go and guide me in unfamiliar terrain and even bring messages from other birds to me, they are my great friends

I believe Guénon also was able talk to birds, every advanced Sufi can do this

>>18507887
I think you're the person that I seek because I have had extraordianary interactions with crows and would like to know more.

Do you have a discord? Add me.

80970
#6617

>>18507887
>I believe Guénon also was able talk to birds, every advanced Sufi can do this

Guenon denounced it as a mystical deviation of pure metaphysical truth.

>>18507553
>It's magical thinking retardation
What ?

>>18507397
So it's all psychological

+ you seems to like Crowley, yet you're guenonian ?

>>18507941
I am slowly trying familiriaze people to Crowley and other counter-initiation

First you give them some ufo literature, some demonic literature, Vallee literature. Say to them "It's not too bad to learn about these things, for your own safety". Then you start to give some Crowley quotes and say "He was not so bad guy after all" and push them little further. Read some counter-initiation literature, about some counter-initiation cults, maybe try some little magick on your own etc. Sooner or later they will succumb to counter-initiation and forget this perennialism/traditionalism

This is what Masons do also, it's only in the 33rd degree or something you learn that they actually worship Satan/Lucifer.

The most important thing is to now talk about these ufos, djinn, demons constantly so as to blur the line what speculation is acceptable. After that these guys only need a little push and their converted to the Dark Side.

>>18508000
kek
quite sinister

>>18507704
>why do you feel the need to obnoxiously try to insert yourself between these people and the teachings they follow, in order to claim that none of it is legitimate unless it meets your arbitrary standard?
Hmmm maybe because you are trying to convince me of it?

>>18508000
All speculation is on the table apparently, except calling speculation out for being speculation. I'm feeling counter-initiated already. I think I'll go pretend I'm a priest later, maybe tomorrow a warrior aristocrat.

>>18508000
Why do you think reading about this stuff would make people more rather than less likely to engage in it? It's all depicted in a negative light. Also why would you do this?

>>18507887
What's a good translation of The Conference of the Birds?

>>18508000
are you an o9afag?
isn't their whole goal to turn an initiate into a Dark God? honestly sounds kinda based ngl

>>18508021
>Hmmm maybe because you are trying to convince me of it?
More self-centeredness. I wasn’t attempting to convince you personally but was just answering your questions and defending the consistency and logicality of something against your naysaying.

>>18507646
Bump

>>18508115
Oh should I let go of my self? Perennialists really are crypto-Buddhists

>>18508140
become who you are anon

>>18508140
and you are a crypto-nigger

>>18508043

>Also why would you do this?

Most people in these threads are impressionable young people in search of “personal power”. Very often their basic set is psychic rather than spiritual; like most tourists, they are looking for “experiences”, not principles to live by.

It is the best way to make them read all sorts of wacky, infra-psychic stuff like Grimoires and whatnot because subconsciously they also suck these destructive influences from these works mixed with their own profane, Jungian/Freudian postmodern attitudes, and return home polluted with the toxic psychic residues of the forms of the sacred they have plundered, so as to release them to do their damage within their own cultures and environments. It's all fun to them, 4chan is just a form of entertainment like porn or Netflix.

By confusing these folks further, they syncretize different forms of the "sacred", assuming that they were originally even aware of true Spiritual ways, and by mixing these "sacred" things with psychic “technologies” or knowledge of the jinn is to relativize and subjectivize them and thus drive everything down to the psychic level while sealing off access to the Spirit; and this is tantamount to demonic invocation.

This is what counter-initiation is all about!

>>18508184
>Jungian/Freudian postmodern attitudes
What the absolute fuck are you talking about

>>18508184
Why would you do this?

>>18508184
>in search of “personal power”.
I'm in search of security and freedom, I want to get the fuck out of this realm after I die and never come back
How do I do this

>>18507732
>That's not what Upanishads translators say,
Gambhirananda, Charles Johnston and Nikhilananda are three Upanishad translators who indeed say that Advaita is their teaching. In any case, modern secular academics are predisposed to have a bias to not see any religious scripture as a revealed, internally-consistent text anyways.

If you or anyone wants to claim that Vishishtadvaita is taught by the Upanishads and be taken seriously, you’d have to answer the questions in pic related, they show that the Upanishads do not teach Vishishtadvaita but rather they deny the reality of multiplicity/change and speak of an undivided, partless and unchanging Supreme Being/Reality who is transcendent to the world like Advaita teaches instead of pantheistically comprising it as Ramanuja holds.

>>18506342
Another interesting parallel between al-Daijal and freemasonry is that al-Daijal is described at one point as the nation springing from Gog and Magog, which will rush down from every elevated peak. Now Gog and Magog are also claimed as legendary forefathers of the people of England, and according to tradition they are buried under the Guildhall in the City of London.

>>18508200
Bc he's actually a Guenonian frustrated by the lack of possibility of normal discussion anywhere (people in these threads tend to have one or more problems that preclude this) so he's taking it out on some of these people by manipulating them into pursuing what he thinks they want (which in all likelihood they do).

Does anyone know good books on spiritual alchemy

>>18508225
Bhagavad Gita
The Soul after Death
Imitation of Christ

>>18508184
>>18508236
Is it bad to seek experiences? I'm interested in >>18507646, why is this bad and why should I trust the perennialists when they tell me it's bad?
I want experiences because I can't operate on faith alone and I need to see things for myself

>>18508140
>Oh should I let go of my self?
I was only using that in the sense of common parlance whereby self = ego
> Perennialists really are crypto-Buddhists
Wrong for many reasons, but among others that Buddhists are anti-foundationalists who deny that there is any Supreme Being, unlike most other religious traditions and perennialists.

>>18508200
Because hes a larper and a troll

>>18508247
>Bhagavad Gita
>The Soul after Death
These two contradict each other regarding the fate of the soul after death though, don't they

Unironically, Crowley says the same thing that Guenon: https://iao131.com/2013/03/24/thelemic-mysticism-part-2-mysticism-in-theory/

>>18508200
Those Traditionalist/Perennialist generals are/were too religious & used religious terms entirely too much - i.e., "Advayam", "Ananda", "Brahma," Etc. In fact they belong in the long disconnected romantic/orientalist movement of 1900s that had a hard-on for some Indian "Bearded Wisdom Masters". So they are very unconnected with reality aka the Clown World. I'm on the other hand and "scientists" like Fauci are NOT poetic bullshitters.

Society is/are not interested in getting a lot of "religious drop outs", they want real bad people.

These people do not need some Sufi/Vedanta frameworks to work with,
>>18508225 guys like this are interested in physical immortality

The topics in coming Trad generals should include the following:

>(1) Time-travel - past, present, & future explorations.
This is a good one. Maybe group meditation time travel to Satya Yuga/Treta
>(2) SEX-magic of a horrific type -
Solo or single. I don't care.
>(3) Elemental Explorations & work with very low energies
Dangerous, but interesting.
>(4) attacking any body who gets too close to it
Magically. Not in real life.
>(5) a secret method of control of the Quantum mechanic world of physics via fellatio or intercourse
Haven't worked this out yet.
>(7) making friends with like minds in other countries
This is why we have Discord.
>(8) eating & drinking
>(9) fucking & sucking

These generals should about for sheer power & good times - Fuck the goody-goody perennialism- shit on those books and burn them- I say - COUNTER-INITIATION!

>>18508286
Hinduism encompasses the different systems
Each consciousness is reborn according to its karma and psychology
There are hells and heavens
A Christian can be reborn in a Christian paradise
Etc

>>18508322
>A Christian can be reborn in a Christian paradise
But it's all temporary according to hinduism

>>18508331
Temporary but very long

>>18508241
The only western stuff I can think of that's both immediately applicable to that and worthwhile is all related to German Idealism, maybe Hege's PoS for something more tolerable to modern sensibilities while still intellectually stimulating. Also Rudolf Steiner made a nice cottage industry out of taking ideas from Theosophy and other western pop-esotericism and making it all sound higher IQ than it was by grounding it in things like German Idealism and Goethe.

>>18508254
It depends on what you think you're looking for and what would actually satisfy you. If you're seeking novelty or are just curious, there's plenty of weird/unnerving/fun shit that can happen with vanilla meditation. If you have some of those experiences and are still craving more stimuli, then sure keep going, on the other hand it might be something better resolved with therapy or better served by experimenting with substance.

>>18508286
When you look closely and think, do they? Suppose they did? What do they both say? What does that mean about the choices you have?

>>18508322
Gross simplification if even that.

>>18508334
Yeah so it's not what I want

>>18507704
>The ideas are coherent, mystics give coherent accounts of them
Hahahahaha.

>>18508336
>What does that mean about the choices you have?
What are you getting at?

>>18508348
You can't have immortality
The only way to "become" immortal is to discover your True Self
But in fact your True Self has always been immortal and the you that wanted to escape death (your ego, your person) will die in the process
So in the end nobody becomes immortal

>>18506342
shieeet....so guenon was satanic counter-initiation all along?

>>18508371
This. Advaita is no different than "I'm atheist, but spiritual."

>>18508336
>what you think you're looking for
I don't know specifically, something definitive I guess, that would feel truly meaningful. I tried meditation but I never got anywhere with it and I'm struggling with the other stuff too (AP/LD)
On the other hand I'm against substances because I like being in control and don't want to open myself up to potentially nefarious influences like this (shit like DMT is interesting but too extreme since you're pretty much thrown into another world at the mercy of whichever entities notice you)
But really is there any harm in standalone AP and LD? And by themselves, can they lead to deeper realizations about the nature of reality, or even mystical experiences? I'm not a religious person so belief in something specific was always a problem for me

>>18506409
>tfw that tripnigger Frater is al-Daijal

>>18508371
Wait
So no one is ever saved?

>>18508371
That kind of metaphysics doesn't appeal to me at all. I don't want to spark a debate on annihilationism but let's just say I'm looking for something else

>>18508414
Not unless you reach Moshka (At least according to Hindus)

>>18508401
>I tried meditation but I never got anywhere with it
Pic rel and https://www.reddit.com/r/TheMindIlluminated/
If you stick with it you'll have results (jhanas)

>>18508265
Ok so a bunch of eclectic vedantosufists think you can annihilate your ego and achieve non-duality with the supreme being. That's just buddhism/esoteric nihilism forced into compliance with the sacred texts of revealed religions.

>>18508422
Moksha is the realization of your true identity and the stopping of your identification with the ego
But the ego does not become immortal and your True Self was already saved
So nothing changes and your person is never saved

>>18508423
Yeah I tried that stuff. Buddhist meditation isn't my thing anyway, I'd prefer actual experiences rather than stripping away my reality and self (I think they have some in vajrayana but I'm not big on the guru worship aspect)

>>18508431
>and your True Self was already saved
Immortal* not saved

>>18507191
>Yes I think perennialism isn't true. I'm looking for alternative models that make actual sense.

It's not, just be a small 't' traditionalist (in the sense Guenon disparaged but actually makes sense). Guenon didn't know what he was talking about when he drifted off from Shankara and freemasonry. Everything he says on topics other than these comes from a very shallow reading where he tries to twist meaning and etymologies to fit his meta-narrative.

The big giga-Sufis like al-Junayd and Ibn Arabi say that advaita is wrong. Catholicism teaches against it. Eastern Orthodoxy teaches against it. Judaism goes against it. Most of Hinduism refutes it.

>>18508440
>I'd prefer actual experiences
... Bro what are the jhanas?
Its like better than sex (piti)

>>18508422
>goal 1 security
>goal 2 pleasure
So Instagram thots are closer to spiritual "liberation" than hunter gatherers in tanzania?
Is buddhism just a scam?

>>18508431
Western systems where everything including the ego is perfected and unites (but remains separate from) the divine are better

>>18508423
Didn't the author turn out to be a degenerate pervert?

>>18508360
You'll likely have questions like:
Is continuity of consciousness even possible?
If so what does it continue into?
How do the different interpretations of this reckon with the choices you make if at all?
Having some idea of these things how do you live?

>>18508371
This is the case in popular understandings of Hinduism and Daoism (and to a lesser extent Buddhism (juejuejue don worry bro ur not even alive now! :) ) and where Abrahamic religions tend to be interesting in that the idea of soul sleep (most of them are implicitly forced into) requires God making some kind of 'save file' of your soul, but without any real continuity of consciousness. So minus some weak shit like identity of indiscernibles, is it really you that wakes up on the other end? Not saying it isn't, just more to think about.

>>18508401
If you want something more meaningful and if your metaphysics allows it probably prayer and related things like lectio divina are the Royal Road to a sensation of meaning. For meditation I'd be curious to hear more about what you tried. For instance >>18508423
is a pile of shit, generally so is anything that falls fully for the samatha/vipassana treatment imo. AP and LD have the same issues as drugs, they might stimulate the imagination but can't provide any real or lasting insight. Whether or not they're harmful is an advanced discussion which depends more on your belief system.

>>18508414
Not according to advaita, no.

>>18508460
Yeah I don't really agree, I'm not interested in pursuing these states, they just don't interest me

>>18508461
Dont think they mean pleasure in that sense, more in the sense of being content and enjoying life in a meaningful way. In the same way that sex and taking a walk in a forest are both a form of pleasure, but vastly different in nature

>>18508463
No it's the same in the west
The ego is purified (salt mercury) and dies before the sun (true self)

>>18508466
>Is continuity of consciousness even possible?
I'm pretty sure even plato addresses this

>>18508465
Yes but his system is still valid and effective

>>18508483
The ego i.e. sense of identity doesn't actually die though, it is just connected to the One, read the neoplatonists

>>18508424
>That's just buddhism/esoteric nihilism forced into compliance with the sacred texts of revealed religions.
Wrong, since the revealed texts of the Upanishads were teaching that centuries before Buddhism even existed, and its not nihilism since nihilism is mutually exclusive with saying a Supreme Entity like Brahman exists

>>18508466
>if your metaphysics allows it
I don't really have metaphysics but I subscribe to the idea that there are infinite realms both higher and lower rather than one Earth and one eternal heaven
>what you tried
Mainly samatha. Dabbled in other things but after almost a year of getting no results (aside from lower stress and better sleep) I stopped
>can't provide any real or lasting insight.
But then why are they used as tools by some Buddhist sects and by the hermeticists/qabbalists?
I am convinced that dreams are more meaningful and not just simply the unconscious dumping random shit
>advanced discussion which depends more on your belief system.
Where can I read more about it?

>>18508494
Same in Vedanta
It doesn't actually die
Your'e still functional
Until your last death and yoj remain in the Parabrahman/the One

>>18508241
Evola's Introduction to Magic is top tier in this regard. Another book you can read, although its pop-sci neuroscience but it confirms everything Evola wrote about, is Symphony of the Brain.

>>18506409
>"If therefore thine eye be single, thy. whole body shall be full of light"

You idiot that's a Gospel quote

>Rosicrucianism was infiltrated by Weishauptian Illuminators.
I think you meant the other way around. But actually the Illuminati were an extreme consequence of the rosicrucian utopians who failed during the reign of King James to unite Europe under a hermetic-protestant tradition. read more

>>18506521
Rosicrucianism was a larp from the beginning. of course it's modern offshoots are trash

>>18508521
>Until your last death and yoj remain in the Parabrahman/the One
How is this an attractive prospect? I'd rather keep learning, experiencing and discovering forever.

>>18508454
>Most of Hinduism refutes it.
Their arguments were refuted by Advaitins
> The big giga-Sufis like al-Junayd and Ibn Arabi say that advaita is wrong
Abu Yazid of Bistam (Bāyazīd Bisṭāmī), al-Ḥallāj and Abū Saʿīd Abū'l-Khayr are all considered major Sufis and their doctrine is almost the same as Advaita. RC Zhaener calls them Vedanta in Muslim dress. He also called al-Ghazali a non-dualist, although in his more exoteric writings al-Ghazali contradicts the non-dual statements in his more esoteric works like Mishkat al-Anwar.

>>18508533
>How is this an attractive prospect
Conditioned life is only suffering-dissatisfaction (dukkha)
The Absolute is pure bliss

>>18508483
>No it's the same in the west


lies from satan

>>18508488
it wasn't very effective for the author

>>18508546
Nothing wrong with suffering. I don't understand this obsession with annihilation. I don't want pure bliss, I want to be alive.

>>18508556
The author claimed samatha not enlightenment
And he did attain very high meditative states

>>18508547
Huh?

>>18508543
>Abu Yazid of Bistam (Bāyazīd Bisṭāmī), al-Ḥallāj and Abū Saʿīd Abū'l-Khayr

literal whos...there's a reason why Ibn Arabi is considered the "Greatest Sheikh" and why Guenon pretended to have been initiated into his teachings and not someone else's...btw Ibn Arabi never founded any tariqa, even though Guenon retardedly claims he did

>>18508511
>nihilism is mutually exclusive with saying a Supreme Entity like Brahman exists
Pragmatically speaking that is no different than nihilism. The being or nonbeing of a supreme entity changes nothing about your knowable experience of reality. You can affirm it all you want: seeking unity with what has not been demonstrated to even exist and has no discernible impact on anything, merely conjured as a metaphysical necessity. A union with something which has no practical existence is the annihilation of your practical existence into no-thing.

>>18508533
> How is this an attractive prospect
Not him, but you acquire all desirable things simultaneously; whatever desire, enjoyment and fulfillment which other things, learning, experiences and exploration can provide, you acquire all of it, at once and forever
>I'd rather keep learning, experiencing and discovering forever.
If you’ve achieved perfection, you’ve reached the summit, once you’re at the summit you can only go down from there.

>>18508566
fucking crack addicted hookers is effective to you?

>>18508588
>al-Ḥallāj
>literally who
okay retard

>>18508522
>>18508533
>>18508566
>>18508577
>>18508588
Shit. Which one of you is real and which are the counter-initiators?

>>18508607
A guy executed for being a crypto-Christian. Anyway, if you want to use Hallaj as an argument I'll just point to his greatest scholar Massignon who claimed that he was absolutely not an annihilationist.

why the fuck would i care what a muslim thinks about something

>>18508596
An eternal journey is far more beautiful to me than eternal perfection.

>>18508615
I'm the freemason shilling annihilationism. You can trust me.

Someone make a new thread to continue the discussions

>>18508626
No.

"What also surprised me a great deal was the regret that I had no biographical information about myself; this is something I have always formally opposed, and above all for a reason of principle, because, according to traditional doctrine, individualities count for nothing and must disappear entirely ... But, in spite of this, I am obliged at least to rectify erroneous assertions when they occur; For example, I cannot let it be said that I am "converted to Islam", because this way of presenting things is completely false; anyone who is aware of the essential unity of traditions is by this very fact "unconvertible" to anything, he is even the only one who is; but he can "settle down", if it is permitted to express himself in this way, in this or that tradition according to circumstances, and especially for reasons of an initiatory nature. I would like to add in this regard that my links with Islamic esoteric organizations are not something more or less recent as some people seem to think; in fact, they are almost 40 years old...".
- Letter from René Guénon to A. Daniélou, August 27, 1947, my translation - i'm french and my English is bad so sorry if there are mistakes

Retarded Muslims who try to grab his glory must get out. Guénon was Sufi at the end of his life, for purely practical reasons: he already had links with Sufi organizations and he wanted to leave France. The closest and most convenient was the Maghreb.

99.99% of the Muslims who try to seize Guénon's genius by saying "he converted to Islam lol" are refuted by the master himself in this letter and probably never read him, because they would make apostate any Muslim having 1/10th of Guénon's beliefs. Some points of his belief in brief:

1. that all religions are currently valid to lead to God and that Islam is only the most practical path of our time for a European
2. that deliverance (union with the Absolute, death of the ego, al-fana' ) is superior to salvation (entry into paradise), the latter being there for the masses when deliverance is the way of the elites
3. that the world is a part of God and that there is an Absolute superior to the personal God.
4. that it is desirable to achieve supra-individual states through intiation
5. that there is an esoteric path that transcends religious divisions

The Sufi Islam of Guénon is: yes.

The exoteric Islam of 99.99% of the Muslims on earth: it's no, it's shit, and it's probably the worst exotericism still alive.

Small message to the islamists who play the guenonfags to convert naive people to their shitty sect.

>>18508653
>that deliverance (union with the Absolute, death of the ego, al-fana' )
...is annihilationist bullshit

>>18508594
>Pragmatically speaking that is no different than nihilism.
No it’s not because it has totally different implications from saying nothing at all exists, they lead to different world views, ontologies, epistemologies etc etc
> anything, merely conjured as a metaphysical necessity. A union with something which has no practical existence is the annihilation of your practical existence into no-thing.
It not annihilation because your consciousness continues, it does have practical existence because its what is responsible for you being sentient. Nihilism would mean the complete end of consciousness, instead of realizing you are blissful ever-free omnipresent consciousness

>>18508666
The ego is mortal
The True Self is immortal

>>18508686
Your word games don't work on me

>>18507048
Islam is the actual primordial Tradition

>>18508487
I'm not familiar with Plato's argument but he was pre-phenomenology. Can consciousness be sustained without embodiment? Arguably no. Really the only solution is a subtle body or some other form which has extension and multiple modalities for interaction and experience, an idea which is unacceptable to most people.

>>18508513
For metaphysics I guess then the big question will be for you whether the originating force is personal or at least affords personality

For meditation samatha from what I can tell only works for people once they have a connection to their own bodily processes and have methods of dealing with them in meditation. For that reason I had a lot of success with using using(pirating) stuff from Bruce Frantzis and Reggie Ray, the latter might be interesting to you since he was an academic by training who got into vajryana as part of it. Bruce Frantzis on the other hand got into Daoism via extensive martial arts practice in Japan and China, both take a more embodied approach that helps bring about richer and more productive experiences. The big caveat in Reggie Ray's case is that there are a lot of abuse allegations and at a higher level I've heard his practices are really creepy. Bruce Frantzis on the other hand can be kind of a mean blowhard (granted he has a terrible spinal injury) but usually not and no abuse issues or creepy practices afaik.

A lot of Buddhists sects do a lot of weird stuff. In tantric contexts there's a lot of stuff about eating trash and other people's shit. Maybe there's something to it, maybe not. A lot of it I think precisely is what you've said it's more than, namely interfacing with the unconscious.

I'm with you in that I don't think it's random shit, I for one look up a lot of stuff in my dreams and often it has a kind of logic. But I do think the shit metaphor helps, namely your mind is processing/digesting the events of your life that are on your mind and your dreams are results/shit. Shit can be useful and informative, you can tell whether or not you ate corn or had digestive problems, and a doctor can infer a lot from the bacteria in your shit, but it's still shit. It came from inside you and therefore it can't be particularly mindblowing.

I don't know of a single thing of value in Hermeticism and Kabbalah. As far as I can tell those were both just fun ways of exploring humanism and neoplatonism way back when the only thing more edgy than those was an extra round of missionary with your fieldworker wife and some extra salt in your gruel.

In terms of figuring out more about the metaphysics of AP and LD iirc there's a lot in Theosophical writings or adjacent people like Guenon and Steiner, the problem is those all come with a prepackaged belief system, so a lot of this is unfolding your belief system. You've talked about multiple realms, how do you think they relate to each other? How do you think all of this got here? I'll continue this in another post

>>18507655
Don’t make me laugh. Begone crypto-Buddhist

>>18508697
dude I love beating the wife slave(s) my warlord gave me after we killed a bunch of non believers, so traditional!

>>18508700
>a subtle body
Well yeah
Most people are physicalists so their opinions don't matter, but the subtle/light/rainbow body is the highest goal

>>18508653
Indeed. Esoterism is just a dissatisfaction with the exoteric.

>>18508683
>Nihilism would mean the complete end of consciousness, instead of realizing you are blissful ever-free omnipresent consciousness
That 'realization' is the end of consciousness. We are not omnipresent. You are just specualting there is something conveniently similar but permanent beyond personal consciousness to keep you from nihilism.

>>18508732
May Allah guide you.

>>18508647
Extremely based

>>18508700
From there you can find out more about which religions and philosophies seem to resonate with your views. For technical stuff Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is great in addition to Wikipedia and has a lot on eastern things as well.

>>18508234
>Now Gog and Magog are also claimed as legendary forefathers of the people of England
no way

>>18508700
>whether the originating force is personal or at least affords personality
I don't think so, I think it's an essence rather than a being, but in any case its actual ontology is not qualifiable
>once they have a connection to their own bodily processes
What does that mean? Thanks for the recs by the way. I'm interested in the "creepier" practices in vajrayana and stuff (not the shit eating part though) but as I understand it, if you have no guru it's useless
>It came from inside you and therefore it can't be particularly mindblowing.
That's if you assume that you can't interface with other things via your dreams. There are also things about yourself you don't know, so in that sense it could be mind blowing in the jungian individuation sense
>those all come with a prepackaged belief system
Yes this is what bothers me.
>how do you think they relate to each other? How do you think all of this got here?
This is a cop out answer but I don't think the topology of existence is intelligible, if anything I do think there are higher and lower realms, that they are connected since they are all ultimately emanations of the divine and permeated by it
But I don't think it's possible to quite grasp what higher realms are by existing in a lower one, makes sense to me that you'd lack the necessary frame of reference to be able to make definitive claims which is why I'm not convinced by pre-packaged metaphysical systems

All the arguments Guenon uses against mystics and the counter-initiation apply equally to himself.

>>18508472
it's life changing

>>18508884
>annihilation is life changing

no shit

>>18508884
I'm sure it is, so are all religions' mystical experiences

>>18508835
I guess in that case prayer is out the window for now. The other issue is if there's no "personality" to reality then it's hard to ground any meaning in reality. This is why so many religions are actually nihilistic and have a lot to do with getting rid of your self and your attitudes towards anything.

Happy to help with recs, anything I can do to save people time. In terms of bodily processes, most of what we think of happening in our mental lives (this is according to a lot of systems but also has worked in my experiences) actually has its root in different aspects of the body and what they're going through. You can just as easily justify it in ways consistent with a thoroughly materialist western understanding of medicine and physiology but however one thinks it works it works.

By creepier with Reggie Ray I mean more manipulative guru worship type stuff, like one practice I heard about involved visualizing him dispensing "wisdom" as "fluids" into your head believe it or fucking not. His introductory and publicly available stuff doesn't have anything like this however afaik. Interestingly enough he and the guy who taught him, Chogyam Trungpa, argue that the guru relationship isn't particularly necessary anymore, but that's a big controversial hullabaloo.

>There are also things about yourself you don't know, so in that sense it could be mind blowing in the jungian individuation sense
Fair, but Jung is Jung and people are people. That is to say you can learn something and maybe develop from looking at dreams, but only to a point, unless you think the human person in some way contains the totality of being. Another thing with lucid dreaming that a friend of mine pointed out is it actually fucks with the neurological function that REM sleep has of cementing memory, so there's the risk of memory issues if you do it too often, not unlike using weed daily.

>Yes this is what bothers me.
Sadly I don't think there's a way to avoid it. Not because people are dishonest but there's also the sheer issue of scope when talking about all this shit.

>This is a cop out answer but I don't think the topology of existence is intelligible
I think this is smarter than a lot of people can take actually. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head that kind of works with your views closely though maybe is William Blake. I think Christianity and some other religious systems have an answer to some of these things though if you find their ideas acceptable, namely that there's a core approach to living and realization and that a lot of this other stuff is at least until a certain point, a distraction. Not that it's not real or important, but that for the most part it doesn't help to engage with it.

Also I have to do some shit so will be afk for a while.

>>18508960
>if there's no "personality" to reality then it's hard to ground any meaning in reality
I don't see how that necessarily follows, there can be truth without personality, I think
>has its root in different aspects of the body
You mean things like psychosomatic illness?
>the guru relationship isn't particularly necessary anymore
Is there any specific context to that statement? I think it's a fringe belief in vajrayana which relies entirely on initiation and the guru-student relationship so I'm surprised. Do they think people can self-initiate?
>unless you think the human person in some way contains the totality of being.
Most likely not, but I think those who say that answers can be found inside oneself are right.
Thanks for the heads up concerning REM sleep, I didn't know that, I wonder if dream yoga is the same. Either way I suck at LD so it's no issue for now
>the sheer issue of scope
In what sense? I think we cannot currently conceptualize what metaphysical truth is, because it eludes us in nature, scope, size and everything else, is that what you were referring to?
>this is smarter than a lot of people can take actually.
Most people here would say I'm a dumb new ager for believing this and not choosing a religion
I've heard of William Blake but haven't looked into his work so I will.
I'll be away too, hopefully you can answer before the thread dies, if not then I appreciate the help anyway

is joining the army as an officer /trad/

>>18506903
With all the CWC trolling, did anyone figure out what that Stone Age line was supposed to mean?

>>18509047
no, guenonian /trad/ is about doing nothing and wishing for annihilation

>>18509142
wtf I guess I love Evola now

>>18509149
read his critique of guenon too

https://evolaasheis.wordpress.com/2018/03/01/a-controversy-about-the-vedanta/

guenonians seethe hard at this

>>18508454
> Most of Hinduism refutes it.

Advaita is perfectly in line with the Bhagavad-Gita. Not sure that I'm supposed to take other stuff in Hinduism as superseding that.

>>18508461
Though they depicted it as a pyramid, it is not the case that the lower rungs are required for moksha.

>>18509216
it's bhaktic

>>18509182
what's the TLDR since we're at bump limit?

>>18509182
>when you try to refute Advaita but only skimmed Guenon's book instead of reading Shankara and you have no idea what you're talking about

>>18508615
Initiated are able to able to use synchronicity to manifest dubs in their posts.

>>18508816
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gogmagog_(giant)#Guardians_of_London
>The Lord Mayor's account of Gogmagog says that the Roman Emperor Diocletian had thirty-three wicked daughters. He found thirty-three husbands for them to curb their wicked ways; they chafed at this, and under the leadership of the eldest sister, Alba, they murdered their husbands. For this crime they were set adrift at sea; they washed ashore on a windswept island, which they named "Albion"—after Alba. Here they coupled with demons and gave birth to a race of giants, whose descendants included Gog and Magog.[18] The effigies of two giants were recorded in 1558 at the coronation of Elizabeth I and were described as "Gogmagot the Albion" and "Corineus the Britain". These, or similar figures, made of "wickerwork and pasteboard" made regular appearances in the Lord Mayor's Show thereafter, although they became known as Gog and Magog over the years. New figures were carved from pine in 1709 by Captain Richard Saunders and displayed in the Guildhall until 1940 when they were destroyed in an air-raid; they were replaced by David Evans in 1953.[19]
>Images of Gog and Magog (depicted as giants) are carried by Lord Mayors of the City of London in a traditional procession in the Lord Mayor's Show each year on the second Saturday of November.
Once you start digging into the Schizo shit it gets a lot more horrifying than you could possibly imagine.
> According to an unconfirmed report, US President George W. Bush, in the prelude to the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, told French President Jacques Chirac, "Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle East." Bush is said to have continued, "This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase His people's enemies before a new age begins."

>>18503179
Not him but check out Three Aspects of the Jewish Problem