/lit/ - Literature

>>18479556
How is Homeric Greek different from modern Greek, bros? Any resources on how to learn Homeric Greek (books/websites)?

>>18479556
>platonism general gets moved to /his/
Proof or didn't happen
Also first for Prometheus Bound

>>18479565
Homeric Greek is quite different (harder) even from Attic Greek which is what the tragedies and Plato are written in. Attic Greek is harder than Koine Greek which is what the NT is written in. So there's quite some distance between homeric greek and modern greek

>>18479574
If so: RIP Platonism General. Was fun while it lasted.

>>18479574
>>/lit/thread/S18443402

Is it the best work of Egyptian literature?

>>18479574
It's true, it was moved multiple times.

>>18479574
>Prometheus Bound
Probably not even written by Aeschylus desu

>>18479644
Good
>>18479556
>Ancient literature
>classics
You don't need a general for that.

>>18479668
Says who?

>>18479668
Why would you celebrate the removal of those threads? They contained a bounty of discussions about several different works of literature. Surely that is the purpose of the board?

>>18479556
>platonism general gets moved to /his/
What are jannies smoking??

>>18479565
Very different. Any uni educated Greek can read medieval/koine Greek with ease outside of a few literary words but when it comes to Attic/Homeric, the syntax/grammar/vocab is so different that it will seem like an entirely different language.

t. Greek

>>18479556
>platonism general gets moved to /his/
Why though?

>>18480059
Because most of the time they devolved into meta-threads.
>Surely that is the purpose of the board?
Then use the board and don't restrict the discussion to a general.

>>18479556
What resources / secondary sources / lectures / editions / translations did you find most useful when reading and learning about the tragedies?

>>18480140
>editions / translations
The ones in the OP

>>18479565
search homeric greek in libgen

>>18479565
Homeric Greek was never spoken. It was a poetic language based on an older more archaic Greek to imitate the feeling of "mycenean Greek heroes". Lots of different words or known words with different suffixes etc etc

In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram.

>nobody will ever start with the Mayans

>>18482889
start with the toltecs

Start with the mesopotamians

>>18482919
Start with the Protozoa

Start with the mesopotamians & mayans

>>18482889
The Maya. The MAYA. Not the Mayans. Mayan refers to the language, Maya refers to the people

>No Dialogues
desu just start with the big bang.

Bros, I'm finishing Procopius right now and I'm feeling empty because I know I'm about to exhaust the ancient historykino well. What a ride it was. Also fuck the writer of the Historia Augusta, he deserves to be thrown into the Tiber inside a sack together with a dog, an ape, and a snake.

>>18483637
Look at the image again you mongoloid.

>>18483641
I want only testing you, congrats, you passed.

>>18479556
Pope or Fagles? I had Fagles on my list but some one told me Popes were better.

>>18479556
what kind of idiot made this chart? most of the titles are not even visible

>>18483640
>Procopius
How is it?

>>18483696
But Pope is not trying to stay close to the original text. I don't know why one would read Pope before others unless they're interested in reading Pope more than they care about reading Homer.

>>18483701
>getting filtered by a chart

>>18481320
I want to read the Vulgate, but my latin is bad. Can I still do it? I'm only on chapter X on LLPSI

>>18484065
I just tried to read chapter 1 of Genesis and it was fine.

>>18480140
The wikipedia pages

>>18483817
Kino. The comfy digressions remind me of Herodotus, and he also has the vividness of Thucydides because he was present for most of Belisarius' campaigns.

>>18484065
Just read an interlinear version you impatient faggot

Roman recommendations pls?

>>18485858
What are you looking for? There's everything from history to poetry to novels.

>>18485949
Something similar to what OP posted if possible? Mainly history

>>18485986
Gotta start with Livy. If you're adamant about reading the whole thing, the most important bits are the first books (foundation, king era, early republic), and the Second Punic War (books 21-30). The subsequent books to the Punic War are kino, though, you watch some dumb Hellenic kings get too cocky and get dabbed on by the new superpower in town.

>>18485986
>>18486035
Also this.
It's not even close to complete by any stretch, but what the hell, might as well post it. You'll find what you're looking for either way, once you start reading them.

>>18486071
Why is it called 'Resume with the Romans'? 'Start with the Greeks' isn't alliterative. It's always triggered my autism.

>>18486088
Maybe the alliteration was unintentional

>>18486088
It's not like it's "Romance with the Romans"

>>18486201
>>18486241
It should be 'Proceed to the Romans'.

>>18486288
dubs decided

>>18486288
Doesn't retain the implication that you must've started with the greeks first

>>18486088
>>18486201
>>18486241
>Start with the sanskrit
>Continue with the chinese
>Get to the greeks
>Resume with the romans
>Follow with the french
>Go on with the germans
>Rush to the russians

>>18486507
>Ignore the italians

>>18486512
>>18486507
>Avoid the Anglos

>>18486507
>>18486512
>>18486532
>shit on the Spanish

>>18486507
> Sample the Slovaks
> Check the Czechs
> Probe the Poles
> Look into the Lithuanians
> Leap over the Latvians
> Explore the Estonians
> Finish with the Finns

>>18486404
Yes it does.

>>18486507
Mingle with the Mongolians

>>18486643
>18486643
>>18486600
>>18486532
>>18486512
>>18486507
>Throw out the Turks

>>18480059

Platonists are pseuds. Every time I joined their thread and argued against Platonism it ended with no one having any answer anymore to what I said, yet they persevere in being retarded.

>>18486716
No, there were plenty of arguments. You're just butthurt that you don't have the discipline of intellectual strength to have immersed yourself in a tradition. You wouldn't even be allowed to have a discussion without having read the texts in the past, you're an uppity peasent who needs to learn their place.

>>18486726

"No there were plenty of arguments"

How do you even know since we're all anonymous and you can't know what I refer to ? Are you another Plato pseud ?

No platonist ever proved me wrong, it's just my intellectual superiority that gets them every time.

>>18486804
Learn
Your
Place

Not trolling, I'm serious. You are a slave.

>>18486829

Ok Plato pseud hahahahaha. Contemplate the form of the dildo in your anus.

>>18486943
not that anon but you do sound like a retard

>>18486071
Why is there no non-retarded Romans chart? i.e. one without secondary sources

>>18479556
Okay /lit/ what ancient language should I learn. I speak fluent English French Persian Arabic and bits of German and Turkish

Looking for free resources and PDF's for self directed study of Ancient Greek, not so much interested in New Testament. Also, when Rome conquered Greece, what form of Greek would be spoken around slaves at that time?

Mostly in it for the poetry. Are there any Dead language book megas floating around?

Thanks for any info

>>18479556
Read The Golden Ass

>>18487574
https://archive.org/details/homericgreekabo00phargoog
If you are looking to read poetry, start with Homeric Greek.

https://commons.mtholyoke.edu/hrgs/
This website has video lectures that coincide with Pharr's textbook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJTq1rtB22U&list=PLv6lcWTkqoQgLuiUXHWE_b96RmvR4CIw7
Alternatively, you can use this guy's yt channel.

Only problem is they have dogshit anglo pronunciation but beggars can't be choosers.

Ok so I asked in another thread, but can someone more scholarly than me give the rundown on available translations for the Iliad, Odyssey and Aeneid? I read Fagles for all 3 and am wondering if I should read other versions.

>>18487641

Thank you, anon, I'll enjoy looking into those.

>>18487475
No one has bothered doing it. Maybe one day I'll do one, with suggestions from everyone, of course. Not sure if it should be autistic and stick strictly to Latin texts, since a lot of Roman-related works are in Greek (Plutarch's bios of notable Romans, Josephus' Jewish Revolt, Procopius, Polybius, etc.). Food for thought.

>>18487604
Based. What a fucking fun read that is.

Could be separated in different sections but the same chart because it's still under the Roman empire.

>>18487534
Latin

>>18488045
For >>18487700

>>18479574
One of the best plato vs nietzsche threads got moved there to die.
You can probably guess the janny's reason

>>18483817
Procopius is very very good. In many ways he deserves to be called the last great historian of antiquity as he evidently had studied his predecessors and learned from them. He has Herodotus' eye for anecdote and digression, but also the clarity, and I'd argue depth of thought, of Thucydides. As an eyewitness to a lot of what he writes about, he also can take the reader with him to see the events unfold like Xenophon or Ammianus.

I feel like the existence of Secret History has somewhat unfairly maligned him, although also understandably so. It is a hit piece and a very difficult source for an historian to grapple with, which I think has caused too many to just throw their hands up and use it as a source for amusing quips to undergraduate audience who in turn grow up to view Procopius as an unintentionally funny partisan. But the Wars is very sober and I don't think his treatment does any more injustice to his subjects than, say, Thucydides did. And the Secret History itself is slightly more even-handed that you'd expect from a hit piece: After all just about every single take defending the people he attacks uses it as a major source and just shifts the perspective to produce a positive take. Then they pat themselves on the back for their own even-handedness achieved by ignoring the parts that paint their subject in a bad light, citing Procopius' obvious rhetorical flourishes about Justinian, never mind that there is nothing particularly unbelievable about most of what he says. It's still a partisan hit piece obviously.

>>18479565
There's literally a book titled Homeric Greek by Pharr. I used it but only read the first bit of the Iliad. It worked well.

>>18488633
Are his anecdotes and side stories factual? Or does he mix myth with fact? Hopefully he read Lucian and learned the folly of doing it that way.

>>18490215
He runs the whole gamut from "I personally know this soldier and was present when he got an arrow in his forehead and all these years later he still lives." to "There is a village on the shores of the North Sea whose inhabitants are awakened by a strange force at night that compels them to row their boats filled with the shades of the dead to an island that isn't there at day."

>>18491442
Part of me likes those little tales, and other parts of me wish they'd stick to facts so I know they're serious. I'm developing an interest in the late antiquity though, so I think I'll order the wars at least. Dunno about secret history.

>>18491442
Also, any recommendations on the best translation?

>>18491570
Loeb is the standard. Anthony Kaldellis modernized it for at least Secret History and I've seen good reviews, but read the Loebs myself. Kaldellis certainly knows the language, but I'm slightly more cautious towards his commentary. While personally I'm sympathetic to his arguments, he is more of an enfante terrible of the field who is better as food for thought than someone whose conclusions you should trust. Most of the Loeb edition is by now available on the Internet, although the last volume is still covered by copyright.

Ossians works

test

.

I finished all tragedies & Aristophanes. What should I expect from Menander?

>>18493474
Less political than Aristophanes (being subjects to the Macedonians it was no longer advisable to parody the ruling class, as one could in a democratic context). There's a shift in focus to more domestic settings, but the characters are subjected to interesting (and amusing) moral dilemmas, and occasionally deal in surprising and clever ways with these.

>>18491990
literally not ancient but cool af

>>18479556
Nobody got time for that

>>18479556
Is there a chart for Hellenistic Greece? Why does it stop at Classical Greece?

>>18494662
Start with Callimachus and Theocritus.

>>18479556
Been working through this on and off through August. I really enjoyed Gilgamesh, the Baal cycle and Aquat, and a lot of the poetry from Egypt was good. AMA.

>>18479625
The dialogue of a man and his soul is more philosophically striking (for it's time at least) as it not only discusses whether or not life is worth living at all, but also if there is an afterlife at all, wandering momentarily outside the mainstream religious thought. And the tale of shipwrecked sailor is more interesting and even has some metaphysical depth as the large snake could be interpreted as being the Sun god Ra or Atum, and the 72 other snakes the other gods, the destruction of these other gods the collapsing in of existence at the end of the world, in which things become as they were in the beginning, a symbol of the cycle of creation.

>>18479556
This book offers not only insight into the reality of Atlantean era, but also gives interesting backdrop and clarity for the more mysterious Ancient Egyptian text and the Ancient Egyptian line of thinking and worldview overlooked by mainstream scholars. If your a fan of Evola, or familiar with Hesiod's cycles I recommend it too.

>>18493753
anon it's not based to be not well read

> A total of ten books were written and all survive
> There is, however, some debate as to whether the poem was unfinished at the time of Lucan's death, or if the final few books of the work were lost at some point.

So which is it, Wikipedia?!

>>18482919
Start with the Egyptians, oldest civilization in the world not mesopotamia, look up sphinx water erosion

>>18495119
Can you elaborate on what they're like? Aside from Gilgamesh.

>>18495240
Canaanite literature is quite interesting (think the Old Testament but pagan), and shows a lot about the religion of the Canaanites and Phonecians in the Bronze age. The Baal Cycle is about Baal defeating different gods, such as Sea and Death (Mot), Aquat is about a king who can not sire a male successor and the god Baal blesses him and leads him in battle to take as his bride the princess of another nation. THe king gets sick, the gods heal him, and his son ask for the throne but his answer is... strange. It is interesting to see the parallels to other mythologies such as Egyptian (the Baal cycle equates to some stories about Set, who the Hittites worshipped) and also offers some interesting context on Moloch (Baal) from the Bible. Egyptian literature contains no "epic" cycles, but the shorter stories are often interesting, and like anything Egyptian full of metaphysical symbolism that can only be appreciated from an understanding of there mythology, as I mentioned in my other post
>>18495134
The battle narratives are also cool if your a history buff, and so are the poems such as Hymn To The Great Orb written during Akenhatens reign.

The Romans made me realize that eating out a woman makes you gay.

>>18495377
this just confirms my instinct, I knew it was a submissive act, it's disgusting anyway.

>>18479565
Clyde Pharr's Homeric Greek was useful to me.

Also, this professor's old site has some worthwhile articles to read on this topic and others:

http://wayback.archive-it.org/6670/20161201173100/http:/community.middlebury.edu/~harris/

>>18496247
How did you go about using Pharr? Did you know Attic first?

My Attic is really rusty so I decided to use Pharr on a recommendation, start with Homeric and work my way back to Attic. I thought it would be fun, because I already have a bit of sensitivity to linguistic development. When learning Attic I enjoyed tracking things like where intervocalic sigmas had dropped out.

But I dropped Pharr pretty quickly when he started wanting me to recognise forms and grammar that absolutely required knowledge of the full declension for that verb, and instead of just showing it at that point, there was a little asterisk saying refer to the back of the book. There was simply no way to interpret that other than him assuming you already knew the grammar, which made no sense. I believe it was specifically in a practice problem at the end of a chapter, one of the first few. If I'm remembering right, you just couldn't know how to answer that question correctly unless you knew the underlying thing, and the book definitely had not taught it to you yet, so there was this weird "secret" expectation that I would go spelunking in the appendices on my own initiative.

Was I wrong? Maybe I had too much of a kneejerk reaction but that pissed me off.

>>18496277
I had a year of Attic under my belt in college at the time and even with that I was still beating my head against the wall with a lot of it, no doubt from similar problems. That was many years ago at this point and I've been meaning to come back to it but the idea of basically starting from scratch again doesn't sit well with me.

.

>>18494662
This is what I have on my reading list for Hellenistic Greee

Hellenistic
-------------
### 3rd century BCE
#### Literature
- Apollonius of Rhodes
- Callimachus
- Aratus
- Lycophron
#### Science
- Euclid
- Archimedes

### 2nd century BCE
#### Literature
- Theocritus
#### Science
- Apollonius of Perga
#### History
- Polybius

>>18497661
I have a suggestion for Euclid. You should have a look at the book: Geometry: Euclid and Beyond by Hartshorne. It's not designed to replace Euclid, you should by all means read it. It's to accompany it.

Salvete amici! I wish I knew Latin

Aeschylus > Euripides > Sophocles > Aristophanes

This is non-debatable and objective.

>>18499082
Sophocles is better than Euripides

>>18499098
It's ok to be wrong

>>18499117
Tell that to yourself since you are wrong.

>>18486943
Get off this site and get help

>>18499140
I would ask you why you think Sophocles is better than Euripides, but I'm pretty sure you'd just regurgitate either Aristotle or modern academics

>>18499362
The soul and depth of Euripides's characters are laid out too abruptly and nothing is left for the reader to understand. Pentheus is arrogant, MEdea is envious, Hippolytus is virtuous. It's very simple and not at all dynamic. The god's condemn them for the excesses of their character. Contrast them with a character like Sophocles's Antigone: A character whose greatest strength and fault, which ultimately leads to her death, is her uncompromising personality and the unwillingness to back down on her principles. The gods do not interfere. Antigone is driven not by some divine power, but the ardent belief that she is morally right. Human agency is the arbiter and determiner of fate on Sophocles's stage.

where is Euclid's Elements?

>>18488081
Sounds like a really good thread.. what gives Jannies??

>>18499574
>MEdea is envious,
Medea is a complex character. She represents the barbarian, the abandoned woman, the fugitive, the person without country. All of these attributes are important for all of her actions; she's not just envious and that's it. God didn't condemn Medea for her excesses; she was driven by her irrational anger, not by gods. Antigone is just a spoiled brat who thinks her wishes are more important than the will of the people. Her principles are that of being an overzealous young girl with too much self-importance.

I grant that you tried to explain your thoughts, but it's just a biased analysis. Euripides had much more insight into human nature and more poetic talent, but I do grant Sophocles that he was the best tragedian in the technical sense i.e. sticking to the norms and making cookie-cutter plays while throwing the kitchen sink to manufacture a "moral dilemma".

Where to start with Greek philosophy? Chronologically?

>>18500498
Read the philosophy books in the OP in that order and those editions

Which version of the odyssey/Iliad?

The version I read was written in normal conversation style, but other versions have the whole thing written as poetry.

>>18500657
Fagles for Iliad, lattimore for Odyssey

Why did God create plants before the sun lmao

>>18499596
On the last row?

>>18485858
This is a great starting point

>>18479556
Where Heraclitus?

>>18502634
Probably in 'The Texts of Early Greek Philosophy'.

>>18496324
I've been learning Attic for about 3 years and it still kicks my ass. According to some professors I've spoken to, this feeling never truly goes away. You just have to get used to it.

>>18479565
There's videos online of Modern Greeks trying to read Homer and it's the equivalent of asking a random American to read Beowulf
https://youtu.be/qe0_BKkfg6g

>>18502728
It's like in Civilization where they have an Italian read latin and they add italian pronunciations like the a sound after consonant endings and that's wrong.

>>18483696
My very strong recommendation to everyone for the Iliad is Edward Earl of Derby, it's not easy to find but it's absolutely sublime and far superior to what little I could stand to see of Fagles.

>>18502646
>>18502634
It's a great edition, it has the fragments in Greek and English

And yes it has Hericlitus

>>18486943
Somehow I suspect you're the retard in this. Your posts closely resemble Hitler's elaboration of how jews lie. Post nose.

>>18487574
picrel was a polyglot who spoke all 22 languages of the nations he governed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithridates_VI_Eupator

>>18502510
Gay

I'm not talking to the /int/ brainlets. I'd like to learn ancient Greek to a point where I can read the Homeric Hymns. What's the best book for doing so?

>>18505370
>Learning one of the hardest languages so you can read 200 pages of poetry from various anonymous authors

what should i read to become an anti-barbarian there-was-a-dream-of-rome romaboo?

Plutarch would be a good addition to this chart yes?

>>18505377
it's called being interested in something

>>18505377
>nooo you can't just set attainable goals for yourself reeeeeee

>>18505377
This is the kind of anon who cries incessantly on 4chan that nothing in life interests him and that he's depressed. You're a loser. I pity you.

>>18505780
It seems to be focused on Classical Greece with very few exceptions

>>18505833
>>18505816
>>18505801
Kek shut the fuck up you retarded pseuds. If you wanted to learn a language you'd be learning it instead of asking for "recommendations" you'll never follow through. I know I'm learning Latin and I didn't come here to ask you subhumans for reccs

>>18505931
>I didn't come here to ask you subhumans for reccs
No worries, but I'll give you one unsolicited recommendation for free: Kill yourself.

>>18505977
Ok subhuman

>>18505698
Definitely Augustus' favorite propagandists: Livy, Virgil, and Horace.

>>18505931
I don’t think it’s crazy to ask for language tips + sources people used instead of buying the first Latin book they see

>>18484065
Reasonably so. You should be able to decently understand the Vulgate with about a year or two of Latin under your belt. Remember that for centuries, many people straight up could not read or write, and the Vulgate was read to them during Mass. So I wouldn't worry too much as long as you're putting in the effort.
>t. high school Latin learner.
>>18485738
It will be both an aid and a detriment to his Latin abilities.

>>18506357
>It will be both an aid and a detriment to his Latin abilities.
Why?

>>18506352
On that note I'm just about done working through the Wheelock's, and I was thinking about getting a textbook that teaches by reading a little more. I'm glad a have some groundwork in the fundamental rules and vocab, but now I'd like to aim for more facility. To that end I also want to get Commentarii de Bello Gallico and just hack my way through it. Any recs on a good original language edition?

>>18507684
Just do LLPSI

>>18506352
r/latin is much better than /lit/ for Latin

>>18508204
That's exactly what I was thinking of, thank you.

This is my favourite general. I wish it was more active

>>18509093
same, very comfy

>>18509093
Nah, if it was active it'd attract more retards.

>>18509117
True but if it's too inactive it dies

How far back in French literary history can you go before it's incomprehensible for speakers of modern French?

Can someone slide the Platonism discord invite link? It expired.

>>18487574
There are tons of books about modern and ancient languages, ancient greek included.
https://mega.nz/folder/x4VG3DRL#lqecF4q2ywojGLE0O8cu4A

>>18509459
I'd say XVth century for someone with a bit of culture (Charles d'Orléans, François Villon). Beyond it starts to need attentive reading and study.

>>18507386
In one way, it will help him recognise certain grammatical structures and how they're translated, as well as just a place to grab some vocabulary words. On the other hand, anon may slowly depend on the interlinear Bible more instead of his own abilities.

Archilochus was a genius

Did Greeks go to prostitutes?

>>18512253
Yeah of course, Aristophanes mentions them in Ecclesiazusae when women introduce a variation of communism

>>18512253
> In Athens, the legendary lawmaker Solon is credited with having created state brothels with regulated prices.

>>18502510
This is literally terrible. He makes conclusions based on the most retarded stuff.

>Caesar had slaves in his house as a boy, so it's likely that he lost his virginity to one of them.
How can you even fucking say that?

The book is pop-history garbage. Avoid it.

Do I actually need to read the history books in the OT or just the Torah and the Poetry/Wisdom sections

.

What's the time frame of this thread?

>>18512004
>literally drives his enemies to suicide with his little verses
based

>>18515526
thats just a story. its probably not true like a lot of dramatic details in greek history, and youre stupid to flatly believe it.

>>18515550
No shit. Very pedantic post, bro.