/lit/ - Literature

>>18433527
Learn Classical Chinese? Worth keeping in mind that the value most Chinese got historically from Daoism was that they should ingest magic potions to become immortal, or worship pagan idols to get their wishes granted. It's not something easy to understand.

>>18433527
>translation literally changes the entire meaning of the text
Classical Chinese is such an ambiguous shitty language.

>>18433527
Just get 2 or 3 different translations and it should be fine

Btw how do Laozi and Zhuangzi compare? and is Liezi relevant? philosophically speaking, are these guys/books better than the whole Confucius tradition?

>>18433857
tao te ching is fucking epic
havent read zhuangzi but i really want to, apparently its just funny anecdotes.
as for liezi. irrelevant.

>>18433857
>are these guys/books better than the whole Confucius tradition?
That's a vague question, and they both heavily influenced one another and syncretized throughout history. Depending on your own philosophical preferences either one could be "better." Personally, I prefer the Confucians.

Even if you know Classical Chinese it's ambiguous. Ancient Chinese people have multiple interpretations. It's probably intentional. Laozi didn't want people to follow a set of dogmatic rules and claim they were following the Dao. That's why he says "The Dao you can Dao is not the true Dao"

>>18434236
so the based i know is not the true based?

>>18434236
The Daodejing was not written by Laozi.

>>18433527
I made my own translation (of old master Lao). But honestly >>18434236 is pretty true, inscrutable Chinese philosopher isn't just for stereotypes. Turns out when you set out to create an anti-rational philosophy, things get hard to comprehend.

>>18433857
This I personally enjoyed the Gia Fu Feng & Jane English version
Currently reading Zhuangzi and its alright, but Tao Te Ching still mogs the fuck out of it. Confucianism is cringe but like Lao Tzu himself talked about everything has a purpose and works for some people so to each their own I personally love Taoism
>>18434236
Based enlightened anon

>>18433527
I've just read multiple translations and many commentaries on it, trying to broaden and deepen my understanding as much as is reasonable/feasible for my purposes.

>>18433527
By leaving /lit/ and not coming back until we've attained C1 proficiency level in English, German, French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Ancient Greek (all dialects), Modern Greek, Latin, Ancient Hebrew, Modern Hebrew, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Old Norse, Old English, Romanian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Russian, Ukrainian, Old Church Slavonic, Hungarian, Finnish, Estonian, Arabic, Farsi, Swahili, Sanskrit, Urdu, Hindi, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Vietnamese, Tagalog, Indonesian, Dutch, Afrikaans, Lithuanian, Latvian, Gaelige and Scottish Gaelic

>>18434290
This, but only read commentaries after I read 3 translations and always weighted them less than my opinion

I read 3 translations side by side and triangulated.

>>18434335
Redpill me on slovak, afrikaans and latvian lit I am missing on

>>18434229
Analects is horrible. What Confucian work would be better to read?

>>18434587
What is your problem with the Analects?

>>18434236
道可道,非常道 only translates to what you wrote when translated poorly

>>18434124
>>18434229
>>18434286
thanks guys. I'm supposed to read Zhuangzi so I guess I'll start with Tao Te Ching
I've been teaching philosophie for 20 years and recently my academic bosses said, "guys you should learn old Chinexe philosophy, it's essential", just like ten years ago they started saying, "guys you should reflect on transgenderism, it's gonna be essential"

Hmm, a lot of translations I've seen seem pretty similar or at least, the notes gives an alternative reading that is also in other translations
Obviously the meaning itself is subject to multiple interpretations unless you're reading stephen mitchell's garbage

>>18434606
Possibly it was the translation. Possibly it is just unreadable garbage. I read it a while ago so I don't remember why clearly, but I fever it as not inciteful and horribly dull.

>>18436760
>inciteful
Well yeah, you'd hope

Also a reminder that everything you know about taoism as a westerner is likely wrong, that the idea that there's a philosophical taoism and religious taoism is just an orientalist fantasy (that was adopted by some chinese scholars in order to appeal to westerners)

>>18433527
>My Tao isn't worded correctly! It cannot be the Tao!

>>18436801
kek

>>18434549
>Slovak
discount Polish
>Afrikaans
discount Dutch
>Latvian
discount Lithuanian which is discount Sanskrit

>>18436788
>that there's a philosophical taoism and religious taoism is just an orientalist fantasy
That makes Taoism superior in my mind. I presumed it was both to begin with.

>>18436788
>that the idea that there's a philosophical taoism and religious taoism is just an orientalist fantasy
This. And doing alchemy to achieve immortality is based.

>>18436788
anything remotely compelling about asian culture is an orientalist fantasy

learn chink runes, or dont. it probably isnt worth it

>>18437581
lol

>>18435070
I would agree. Not the 'common' Dao. The thing about these translations is that they each have their reasons. If you are interested in knowing all of them and coming to your own conclusions, then you have to learn the original. Close reading in the original always has and always will be the best method to properly understand a text.

>>18434251
the real based can't be named cope annon

Ask john cena to translate it

>>18433527
Accept the fact that, as a non-native speaker, unless you actually go live in China for an extended period of time, thereby developing a deep understanding of the language and its contexts, you will never understand the whole of it, no matter how many translations and commentaries you read.
There is probably a good daoist lesson contained here.

>>18433527
Is there any specific translation less butchered than the others? Any recommendation?

>>18436788
I went over this as well, there was a video I watched describing this and just on the face of it sounds wrong and ruins the point of everything, I like everything that comes packaged with Taoism.
>>18437526
Agreed even if you dont like Taoism you cant tell me that isnt based as fuck

>>18439389
Where do these brainlets come from? Are they bots?

>>18439389
Isn't an integral part of Taoism that language is totally inadequate to Express the deepest truths? Seems like it should hardly matter what language it's translated to in that case, it will only ever be an imperfect gesture towards truth.

>>18439395
Lau

The shambala classics translation is pretty good