/lit/ - Literature

>>18432973
I think that most of what he wrote is not actually anywhere in the catholic dogma.
He wasn't even an extremist btw, he was a guelfo bianco

>>18432973
Based

>>18433006
he said some things that were anti-papacy, such as popes using their terrestrial power to enrich their domains and the selling of indulgences as highly ignoble. and further, that the papacy should only concern itself with religious teaching, and that the empires and kingdoms should concern themselves with philosophical teaching. this is at a time when the two were considered at odds, and before aquinas, roman and greek philosophers were proscribed

in terms of doctrine though, he was pretty much lockstep with aquinas. for instance, he put Muhammad in hell suffering painful torture for eternity, since he was a false prophet.

>>18433111
>he said some things that were anti-papacy, such as popes using their terrestrial power to enrich their domains and the selling of indulgences as highly ignoble. and further, that the papacy should only concern itself with religious teaching, and that the empires and kingdoms should concern themselves with philosophical teaching.
Yes, and this was the moderate position between guelfi neri and ghibellini.
Btw, even if Dante recognized the validity of the Emperor terrestrial power, he always attributed a moral superiority to the Pope.

That's not even a dogma. The official position is that we don't know what happens to them and we can only hope that they'll receive God's grace

>>18432973
Read the Summa Theologica. Aquinas's arguments are ironclad.

>mfw Frederick II is in Hell according to Dante

>>18433162
sounds basedish
just say yeah your aborted baby is in hell, sorry not sorry

>>18433006
Most of what he wrote was perfectly consistent with Catholic dogma. The only significant doctrinal deviation was allowing non-Christians into heaven. But that's irrelevant and anyone bringing up dogma or doctrine is being a pedant, Dante wrote poetry, not theology. It's not meant to be your guide to heaven it's meant to be a moving piece of literature.
>>18433162
This especially. While the Church has a lot of teachings many of them are flexible and in Dante's time it wasn't nearly as codified as it is now.

>>18433260
>The only significant doctrinal deviation was allowing non-Christians into heaven.
?
Weren't the non-Christians in Limbo?

>>18433297
The Ancient Greeks were, which is according to doctrine, but he makes some allusions to non-Christians and foreigners being saved in Paradiso 19, presumably during the judgement.
>For you would say: ‘A man is born along
>the shoreline of the Indus River; none
>is there to speak or teach or write of Christ.

>And he, as far as human reason sees,
>in all he seeks and all he does is good:
>there is no sin within his life or speech.

>And that man dies unbaptized, without faith.
>Where is this justice then that would condemn him?
>Where is his sin if he does not believe?

>>18433162
Yes. It's most likely that they are in a state of natural happiness, like Adam and Eve before sin.

>>18433368
>The Ancient Greeks were, which is according to doctrine
There's also Avicenna and Averroè if I remember correctly

>>For you would say: ‘A man is born along
>the shoreline of the Indus River; none
>is there to speak or teach or write of Christ.

>And he, as far as human reason sees,
>in all he seeks and all he does is good:
>there is no sin within his life or speech.

>And that man dies unbaptized, without faith.
>Where is this justice then that would condemn him?
>Where is his sin if he does not believe?

Ah, interesting, I totally did not remember this from high school.

>>18432973
>such as unbaptized babies going to hell's first circle for all eternity
Christcucks aren't human

>>18432973

I think your story is more like:

>I don't feel close to the "normies". This bothers me.
>I realize that the "normies" these days are more liberal and non-religious (unlike they were in the past)
>suddenly want to defend even the harshest parts of catholic dogma, such as unbaptized babies going to hell's first circle for all eternity

>>18432973
just because something is written in a very poetic way it doesn't mean it's true
>>18433399
most christians don't even think about this, /lit/ is full of people who have grown up without any contact with religion and then what >>18433420 says happens.
catholic religious doctrine isnt even discussed by young people in parishes lol
t.italian with catholic friends

>>18432973
Christians are so fucking stupid they think pouring toilet water on your head makes you immortal.

>>18433441
seething pajeet jealous that the white man has had plumbing since classical times

>>18433006
It used to be there before (((Vatican II)))

>>18433420
>>I don't feel close to the "normies". This bothers me.
Do you honestly think this bothers a single person on this board?

>>18433445
kek

>>18433111
>he put Muhammad in hell
He didn’t put him there. It was revealed to him.

>>18433393
>I totally did not remember this from high school.
You probably either read only the Inferno, an abridgement of the Commedia, or an abridgement of the Inferno.

>>18432973
That book was a political treatise more so than a religious work. Why do people keep seeing it as not mainly political. Still great but more about Italian society and the world than an actual blueprint for spirituality. Dante got kicked out because a lot of the guys he put in hell were people who were alive at the time and exiled him for being uppity. Good book though.

>>18433852
sorry but that's just not true. Dante was exiled because he was a ideological enemy to powerful people but he was also accused of corruption.
La Divina Commedia has elements that refer to politics and Italy but I really don't think that's the main subject

>>18433852
Politics is just a part. He speaks far beyond that. He already wrote political treatises which were much more direct. Dante was already in exile before he started the work, his feelings of exile are a huge part of why he wrote the work. It's poetry first and foremost, happens to deal a lot with politics and religion because those were important parts of his life.

>>18433852
he wrote the comedy while he was in exile you massive pseud lmao

>>18432973
>Unbaptisted babies go to hell
>All the pagan Roman heroes aren't in hell
He wasn't all that consistent, was he?

>>18433825
Who the hell reads the *whole* DC in high school?
I'm Italian btw
>>18433852
>That book was a political treatise more so than a religious work.
Wrong. It was literally an encyclopedic work.

>>18433935
>All the pagan Roman heroes aren't in hell
But they are. Read the Inferno

>>18434121
>Who the hell reads the *whole* DC in high school?
DC is not long, can be read in a week easily.
Reminder that Russian students read entire Tolstoy & Dostoevsky books in HS.
>I'm italian btw
terroni de mierda che cazzo fai

>>18434188
>DC is not long, can be read in a week easily.
alright but maybe you should also undestand it, may I remind you it's written in 14th century florentine?

I will always find it funny he put Odysseus in Hell.

>>18434241
he deserved it but for other reasons.
The destruction of Troy was brutal, the reason behind it laughable

>>18434222
dante wrote in very simple language - you should know that, Pietro

>>18434274
>Il Paradiso is written in a very simple language
ok

>>18434287
yes? no one disputes this. I'm sorry you're retarded, Pietro

>>18434316
I'm tired, bye

>>18434188
>terroni de mierda che cazzo fai
Non l'hai manco scritto giusto, e non ho una sola goccia di sangue MERDIOnale

>>18434436
>i terroni ci fanno vincere la partita stasera e anon insulta
perchè farsi la guerra all'infinito

>>18434460
Non seguo il calcio, però sono contento che abbiamo sconfitto i T*rchi
Biji biji kurdistan
Tra parentesi io non sono certo Umberto Bossi, ma se uno mi scrive "terroni di mierda" come minimo lo mando a cagare.

>>18432973
>>suddenly want to defend even the harshest parts of catholic dogma, such as unbaptized babies going to hell's first circle for all eternity

Will you defend Siger of Brabant being in heaven?

>>18434241
Odysseus is seen as a snake and a liar, especially in the other pseudo-Homeric stories. He didn't use virtue to solve his problems.

what is a good translation for dante? been on my reading list for a while and thinking i might dive in.

>>18434663
I read the Hollander and I think he's overrated. I'm not convinced his translation is the best and I think his notes are overkill. Ciardi is beautiful but not Dante. I like what I've read of Mark Musa.

>>18434608
>>18432973
Answer the fucking question, OP. Or are you a coward?

>>18432973
>unbaptized babies going to hell's first circle for all eternity

My dad was raised Catholic but never baptized me because my mom was some kind of weird semi-secular Anabaptist. Isn't that like majorly bad thing to do as a Catholic to your child? Basically says "I don't care what happens to you if you die"

>>18434984
Basically get baptized or you are going to hell

>>18435262
Don't worry I already baptized myself years ago

Lol the harsher position is to go to the scriptures and realise that all babies will go to hell, that limbo isn't a thing and that hell is just a fiery place ot torment

>>18433111
>>18433613
Muhammad put Muhammad in hell.

>>18433434
Yes, cradle Catholics generally know sod all about doctrine

>>18433379
They even added a downie

Defend Sieger of Brabant being in heaven right now!

>>18437385
let's not forget that Ali is down there with him

>>18437385
Wrong. Dante put him there because he caused schism. He’s correct that he was a divider; a divider between truth and falsehood.

>>18439232
again, he did not put him there
Everything in Divine Comedy was revealed to him via mystical visions