/lit/ - Literature

>>18422495
I went trough a brief blackpill phase after getting to the core of Mahayana Buddhism. Whoever tells you it's something beautiful or full of compassion is either a retard who hasn't read the actual sutras and words of the Buddha or someone that's just tired of living and took the message to heart. Buddhism is so, so black-pilled about anything and everything outside the search for Enlightenment that it makes Peter Zapfe and Michaelsteader look like fucking Eat, Pray, Love by comparison.

>>18422495
Idiotic. The dead are nonexistent, not happy.

>>18422531
One goes further beyond, butters.

Epictetus

>>18422531
I don't believe that is true but even if it is cessation of existence sounds vastly more tolerable than Earth.

>>18422531
Why are u making a semantic argument over a sloppy translation

>>18422540
Degenerate weakling

>>18422542
So give the more accurate translation

>>18422543
You post on 4chan I don't think you are in a position to call anyone a degenerate or a weakling.

>>18422495
so you read Ecclesiastes and stopped when you got to that verse huh

>>18422549
I disagree

>>18422551
The later verses don't contradict these verses, they are just advocating for a quiet life.

>>18422547
Nah I don't care that much I just wanted to talk to you. You know what the man is trying to say in the quote, dont let your mind be restrained by the inadequacies of language. Interpret the broader sentiment.

>>18422561
It really does sound like he’s claiming the afterlife is better. Something christians are supposed to believe in. But taken out, it’s still wrongheaded degeneracy

>>18422531
I am happy when I am am asleep so shut the fuck up bitch

>>18422570
>Heaven is better than Earth
What a hot-take.

>>18422495
Don't know the fuck churchcuck Christians go on with their normalfag lives without going towards asceticism/denial of Will-to-Live route, after reading this book.

>>18422570
He specifically notes that it's not the afterlife thats better, but the never having been born. It's not after life if you never lived. My interpretation is that even living in Heaven after death isn't worth the cost of witnessing evil on earth, thus never being born is preferable to eternity in heaven.

>>18422531

>>18422575
Do you even understand my position?

There are academic arguments that parts of Ecclesiastes were written much later than other parts. This editing was to remedy the nihilism that is inherent in the text.

>>18422531
>The dead are nonexistent,
probably the dumbest shit you ever said no cap. you may wanna finna pick up a book and read it fr

>>18422608
Apparently not. How is it degeneracy to long for Heaven?

>>18422540
If you really believe this then why don't you just an hero?

>>18422614
I've actually heard that but I don't think it's true. Ecclesiastes seems pretty consistent to me.

>>18422618
Low IQ argument

>>18422622
I'm sure you intuition is more reliable than academic theologians dumbass

>>18422602
Got it. Either way is degenerate.

>>18422624
That was a question

>anti-natalist arguments in the Bible
damn

for me it would be the last messiah by zapffe, or anything by cioran (https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/68189.Emil_M_Cioran))
on a more grounded level, the elementary particles is the most blackpilled book on modern life post-sexual liberation I've read.
the denial of death by becker is suicide fuel for anyone going through an existential crisis though. it's the most convincing argument for why everything in life is a cope

>>18422627
My guesses are just as good as their guesses. It's all just conjecture.

>>18422622
No it's not.
The book put so much emphasis on proving that all is vanity and then it recommend Epicureanism out of nowhere as something which isn't vanity. This is a contradiction.

>>18422633
It's not just a question there is an implication that you cant have contradictory thoughts and actions. Butterfly what's wrong with u rn, why are you being so obtuse? Why are you refusing to see the merit in ideas besides you own narrow ones?

>>18422624
You said
>cessation of existence sounds vastly more tolerable than Earth.
and there is one obvious solution that jumps out. The only alternative I can see is that you don't actually believe that cessation is preferable and just enjoy whining instead.

>>18422636
It's really more significant than mere conjecture, why are you being so arrogant about something you are admittedly uneducated about? Why dont you do a little research and humble yourself boy.

>>18422634
Bro pessimism/antinatalism is fucking ancient. It has roots in Mesopotamia and Ancient Greece.

>>18422656
No, I didn't say that. You do realize this is an anonymous message board. You are talking to more than one person.

>>18422652
There’s nothing more narrow minded than antinatalism

>>18422656
Narrow minded fool can only think in absolutes. I pity you, living in a world devoid of nuance.

>>18422664
You're technically an antinatalist because as a lesbian you have no kids. Refraining from procreation is the endgame of antinatalistism.

>>18422663
You all seem the same to me.

>>18422561
butterfly really does see herself as a bit of a niche celebrity doesn't she.

>>18422664
Well, I may be an antinatalist buy I'd still make a baby with you my mysterious butterfly

>>18422658
>It's really more significant than mere conjecture.
No it isn't. They're trying to guess the context of a 3000 year old book.

>>18422674
Be the cul-de-sac, but don’t be against life.
I want to improve the quality of life and ensure a future. That’s where my maternal instincts go.

>>18422679
Naw. Just an individual.

>>18422574
You're alive when you're asleep so shut the fuck up retard.

>>18422700
I just made a long post in two other threads. Read that please. Don't worry :3

>>18422646
12 Remember(A) your Creator
in the days of your youth,
before the days of trouble(B) come
and the years approach when you will say,
“I find no pleasure in them”—
2 before the sun and the light
and the moon and the stars grow dark,
and the clouds return after the rain;
3 when the keepers of the house tremble,
and the strong men stoop,
when the grinders cease because they are few,
and those looking through the windows grow dim;
4 when the doors to the street are closed
and the sound of grinding fades;
when people rise up at the sound of birds,
but all their songs grow faint;(C)
5 when people are afraid of heights
and of dangers in the streets;
when the almond tree blossoms
and the grasshopper drags itself along
and desire no longer is stirred.
Then people go to their eternal home(D)
and mourners(E) go about the streets.

6 Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
and the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
and the wheel broken at the well,
7 and the dust returns(F) to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God(G) who gave it.(H)

8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.[a](I)
“Everything is meaningless!(J)”

This is perfectly in-line with the beginning of the book.

>>18422694
There are blatant contradictory messages in the text that are only there to espouse the slave mindset of religious institution. Why are you being so defensive about something you haven't even read the Wikipedia about? Is you so fragile? Did you take away nothing from Ecclesiastes you vain fool?

>>18422704
No I am not.
Ah, that sweet dreamless sleep after a long exhausting day is pure kino.

>>18422707
I does sound contradictory to me when you consider initial chapters. It implies all is Vanity expect God.
Latter chapters sounds like a cope to comfort normalfaggots under the Church.

After Finitude.

>>18422712
>There are blatant contradictory messages in the text
Post the contradictions.
>>18422725
The first part of the book is lamenting the state of humanity and the second part is telling you how to cope with the state of humanity. I don't see anything contradictory.

Goodnight everyone it's has been fun sparring with you. I got a nice intellectual sweat going, you can really just let your ideas flow here and see how people react.
Tonight as I'm falling asleep i am going to fantasize about meeting butterfly in a used bookstore in the philosophy section as we both reach for the last epictetus book. I wonder what will happen next...

>>18422726
>Let's ignore the slaughter house called history, who gives a fuck about that? lol let me write this sentimental piece for liberal optimistic faggots who are scared of death and think that they can transcend whole history steeped in blood through some future fairy tale of science

>>18422738
Fuck I ment epicurus

>>18422732
All is Vanity, this statement is aimed at the condition of existence and even your petty fucking pleasure of family and kids don't mean shit.
If anyone is honest with himself then he will take the ascetic route rather than soulless hell of normalfaggotory.

>>18422744
What? I just meant his ontological proof of the gnostic demiurge. Scary stuff.

>>18422694
3000 years c'mon bruh dont be dense.

>>18422518
Please, go on

>>18422756
Having children is part of God's plan. We have the freedom to choose marriage or monkhood.

>>18422950
You have to develop tons of delusion for choosing normalfaggots lifestyle after reading Ecclesiastes.
Fucking coward takes refuge in Church.

>>18422998
Sorry, I don't speak schizo.

>>18422660
I understand, last place I'd expect to see it is in the teachings of Christianity though.
>Bro pessimism/antinatalism is fucking ancient.
Pessimism? Yeah sure.
Anti-natalism? No way. Only among a tiny majority at best, and that'd the upper classes. Average and working class people never thought this way.

The masses (well-adjusted people) in a healthy society CANNOT take anti-natalism seriously. It is a mental illness, or a productive of a mentally ill society in our case.

>>18423195
Ancient were on it.

Wisdom Of Silenus:
>"You, most blessed and happiest among humans, may well consider those blessed and happiest who have departed this life before you, and thus you may consider it unlawful, indeed blasphemous, to speak anything ill or false of them, since they now have been transformed into a better and more refined nature. This thought is indeed so old that the one who first uttered it is no longer known; it has been passed down to us from eternity, and hence doubtless it is true. Moreover, you know what is so often said and passes for a trite expression. What is that, he asked? He answered: It is best not to be born at all; and next to that, it is better to die than to live; and this is confirmed even by divine testimony. Pertinently to this they say that Midas, after hunting, asked his captive Silenus somewhat urgently, what was the most desirable thing among humankind. At first he could offer no response, and was obstinately silent. At length, when Midas would not stop plaguing him, he erupted with these words, though very unwillingly: 'you, seed of an evil genius and precarious offspring of hard fortune, whose life is but for a day, why do you compel me to tell you those things of which it is better you should remain ignorant? For he lives with the least worry who knows not his misfortune; but for humans, the best for them is not to be born at all, not to partake of nature's excellence; not to be is best, for both sexes. This should be our choice, if choice we have; and the next to this is, when we are born, to die as soon as we can.' It is plain therefore, that he declared the condition of the dead to be better than that of the living."

Hegesias of Cyrene, Death by Starvation:
>The book was called Death by Starvation or The Death-Persuader. According to the Roman orator Cicero (lived 106 – 43 BC), the entire book was essentially an argument for why everyone should just give up on life and kill themselves.

Ecclesiastes 4:1
>Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun: I saw the tears of the oppressed-- and they have no comforter; power was on the side of their oppressors-- and they have no comforter.
Ecclesiastes 4:2
>And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive.
Ecclesiastes 4:3
>But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun.


THE DIALOGUE OF PESSIMISM, MESOPOTAMIAN WISDOM
>XI - CONCLUSION
>What then is good? To have my neck and yours broken, Or to be thrown into the river, is that good?
>Who is so tall as to ascend to heaven? Who is so broad as to encompass the entire world?

First Two Noble Truth of Buddhism:
>dukkha (suffering, incapable of satisfying, painful) is an innate characteristic of existence in the realm of samsara;
>samudaya (origin, arising) of this dukkha, which arises or "comes together" with taṇhā ("craving, desire or attachment")

>>18423195
>>18423316
Also if not in literal sense in some civilizations. Antinatalism has always existed in the form of asceticism. Gnostics were also antinatalist.

>>18422998
You're a coward and a fag.

>>18422495
I you like Ecclesiastes, you gonna LOVE pic related. I swear. He is the theologian of Ecclesiastes.

>>18423380
Yes, this is why I am not a believer. I am not strong enough to face trial of my being through asceticism. And I don't want to follow corrupt fucking institutions.

>>18422495

>>18423402
Are you implying that you yourself aren't corrupt? That you can *judge* the sum total of human experience that came before you?

You are not only a coward, you're also insane from self-centered egotism and hubris.

>>18423422
It's not like me saying some bullshit could crumble your faith. Everyone have opinions. I am just saying that Church do reinforce the status quo by promoting normalfag structures and by obscuring ascetic aspects.

>>18422570
There is no real afterlife in Ecclesiastes since it is a Jewish text in origin, just a sort of nothingness (sheol). The point is that there is no grand meaning to anything you may do in life (everything is up to chance and eventually becomes undone) but you still should find mirth in it.
>Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of your vain life which He has given you under the sun, all your days of vanity; for that is your portion in life, and in the labor which you perform under the sun.
>Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
Here grave is a stand-in for sheol.

>>18423485
So how do Christians deal with this

>>18423485
>Ecclesiastes since it is a Jewish text in origin
No, it's not. They stole it from Greeks and added Epicurean flavor into it.
In Greece this was famous as Wisdom of Silenus.

>>18423489
Acceptance? Ecclesiastes echoes a similar sentiment the bible holds, man is worthless.

>>18423489
Read the New Testament, you dumb fag.

>>18423524
No need to seethe I was just asking a question

>>18422614
Specifically the last part with ''Praise God and keep His commandments'' etc.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284228626_Religious_Redaction_in_Qohelet_in_Light_of_Mesopotamian_Vanity_Literature

>>18423587
While definitely interesting, even the report admits that its based on only one edition of this work. We literally won't be able to know until we find an older version of the text

>>18423611
It's very unlikely that older copies of it still exist, therefore the recourse to comparisons with Mesopotamian texts. The hypothesis is somewhat likely, if only because the text really does seem *fragmented*, in my opinion.

>>18423637
Well yeah, the teacher just wrote his musings on life. But personally I think Ecclesiastes always did have religious undertones to it, otherwise why is it in the bible? Why would the Jewish scribes put in a work that was supposedly purely nihilistic before they edited in the feel good bits?

>>18422495
>blackpilled

What color is the rape pill? I consider it black comedy, but I don't know how much rape hurts your butthole.

>Pro tip: You don't cry from assrape when you're the rapist

>>18423664
In terms of blackpilled, it's when people say "Why does the picture not load?". I know bots can't read them, but it hurts to think that the people would censor my art.

>>18423664
These are still good quotes. Most of the people who write books sound so gay. These aren't "real" Joe Biden quotes, but they're from the Cool Joe Biden, who is like Joe Biden but cool instead of gay.

>>18423670
Somebody told me I need to see a therapist...

>I am TheRapist >=)

>>18423654
I think the point is that the Jewish scribes redacted the work in their canonizing of it. Would they be blind to somewhat ''secular'' wisdom? Probably not, and thought it worthy of admission if it was just slightly connected with the rest of the sacred corpus.
They evidently saw some merit in it to include it, just like Song of Songs. Perhaps they already saw God enough in the Songs, even though it clearly falls in line with Mesopotamian and Egyptian love poetry?

>>18423489
Most Christians I've talked to don't really care about Ecclesiastes,. Their knowledge of the Bible comes primarily from attending mass so it mostly revolves around Genesis + 10 commandments + Gospels + some epistles. Life for them is basically a build-up to heaven.

>>18423506
Okay, I will look into that, but it doesn't change the fact that the idea of afterlife in Ecclesiastes is essentially the Jewish one, does it?

>>18422495
Lol that's copied from the Greeks

>>18422531
Is the past real?

>>18423489
It's more a highlight on the vainness and helpleslness of humanity than something meant to be taken word for word. You're supposed to learn to accept how small you are relative to God and be humbled by it, which will heighten your faith.

Psalm 144: Lord, what is man, that though takest knowledge of him? Or the son of man, that thoy makest account of him? Man is like to vanity; his days are as the shadow that passeth away.

>>18423726
Do you think that Jews added the Greek melancholic wisdom to prey on broken individuals?

>>18422495
So in other words abortions are Gods plan for getting babies to heaven in a world where living virtuous is becoming increasingly difficult. Comfy in a way. But then again for a soul to be saved in that way another has to condemn itself

>>18423740
... That's the Ecclesiastes, dear Anon, it was written during the hellenistic Judaism period, of course it reeks of greek thoughts. Even God had to begin with the Greeks.

>>18423983
Meh. Beyond the abundance of Persian and Greek loanwords most of the conceptual material is to be found in Egyptian and Mesopotamian wisdom literature. There's even a metaphor from Gilgamesh in there.

>>18422495
Alive: suffering
Dead: ended suffering
No life at all : no suffering at all

but these are all mortal sufferings, how can you speak of the suffering of the dead. death may not be dreamless sleep.
am i understanding correctly

>>18424157
Why it should any different before you were born then?

>>18423859
God works in mysterious ways

>>18423785
Let’s go for a walk back then and see...
Oh wait.

>>18423485
Right. Hence the whole christian faith is a contradiction

>>18422784
The writer is a King of Israel, presumably Solomon, so 3000 years is a pretty good guess.

>>18425043
kek

>>18425081

>>18424966
Thanks for wearing the collar again Butterfly, at work :3

Appreciate it

>>18425094
lmao

>>18425173
Cope.

>>18425190
>this canonized compilation of Hebrew literature must SURELY be the truth!
I'm the one coping, sure.

>>18425217
Much of this is based on historical records from non-Hebrew sources. Many characters in the Old Testament like Darius, Cyrus the Great and Xerxes are real people that have been greatly documented.

>>18422531
>[citation needed]
it is not unintelligent, it's unintelligible

>>18422495
Friendly reminder that anti-natalism has never ONCE been refuted.

>>18422495
>muh blackpill
>muh redpill
>muh bluepill

Pretty sure you took a wrong turn on the way to reddit there frienderino.

>>18426420
Maybe if you have a child you change your mind.

>>18426318
No one is disputing this. What they're disputing is that Ecclesiastes was written 3000 years ago, let alone that the Earth was created 6000 years ago.

>>18422531
why are trannies so stupid bros

>>18426484
There's an anti-anti-natalist bingo of bad arguments somewhere, and that is on it.

>>18423489
Read the Gospels. They aren't that long even. Jesus broke Hell by His sacrifice and redeemed the righteous ancients to Paradise. All people got to "Sheol" due to their separation from God, but He came to them willingly and let the righteous out.
Like, Plato and Aristotle are probably already with the Saints, unless we don't know of some hideous crimes they had committed that would prevent their salvation by Jesus.

>>18422495
I'm not a Christian but Christianity is so nice.

>>18423334
A minority of gnostics*

>>18424212
not really sure what you mean. if death is like before you were born, then you will be immediately born again. born from the same nothingness, and time does not exist in this state so you will be immediately reborn. the only other option is if death is different to pre birth, then we cant say

>>18422495
cant be blackpilled anymore
i already passed the lowest point
now only up

>>18426484
I wish I'd never been born. My father should have strangled me the day I was born.

>>18426932
>let alone that the Earth was created 6000 years ago.
Carbon dating is a pseudoscience.

https://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/31/us/errors-are-feared-in-carbon-dating.html#:~:text=Carbon%20dating%20is%20unreliable%20for,Zindler%20said.

>>18427241
It's no accurate dating method, sure, but what does that have to do with my post? Don't tell me you actually... believe that Genesis is factual, right?

>>18427309
Yes.

>>18422679
*himself and *he

>Reading a fantasy novel
>"It was week SPLOOSH of the year FLIRKNARD on day FLEMBY of year 1172A"

Holy fuck just use the normal calendar system. We can still understand that it's a different planet than Earth. C'mon now.

>>18422618
Waiting for parents to die before I stamp my own ticket.

>>18422495
>>18422551
What happens at the end of Ecclesiastes?

>>18423719
Of course there is wisdom to that, but the bible already has "secular" wisdom, what with numbers laying down the law for the Jews and proverbs serving as pieces of wisdom for the Jews. The songs is the much more bizarre book I agree, because unlike Ecclesiastes (which truthfully does echoes similar sentiments the bible has about humans) bares almost no relation to anything in the book.

>>18424966
>>18423489
Ecclesiastes isn't a contradiction. Before Jesus, there was only one place the dead went- sheol, or the grave. It is nothingness. And that is the fate of all non-Christians. "Hell" as a fiery torture palace is a myth developed by medieval Europe. The references to hell in the New Testament are from the perspective of someone who fears separation from God, and that's why it is compared to an eternal torment. The New Testament adds only one afterlife to the Christian belief system. Hell is Sheol, or oblivion.

>>18427744
It talks about fulfilling your life and to know God, there's two halves of Ecclesiastes. One half talks about the futility of life, the other half talks about how to deal with it. People have a kek when they take these verses out of context though.

>>18426420
It has never been refuted since most Anti natalists are so utterly convinced they are right no arguments would ever work on them. A bit like the pro natalists. In the end they both think they are in the right and nothing will change that.

>>18422584
they dont read it

>>18422531
>The dead are nonexistent,
https://duck duckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=corpses&iax=images&ia=images
Are you retarded or illiterate?

>>18422495
Can't think of one. Life experience is what blackpilled me.

>>18428015
Corpses aren’t people anymore, anon.

>>18422531
-n (living's happiness) < 0 (dead's happiness)
Thus the dead are happier.

>>18422495
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

>>18430372
>t. Ligotti

>>18429986
For hate's sake I come
To face you, Butterfly.
Witness my rage, now come undone
And in the archives lie.

>>18430368
Thus your degenerate mind malfunctions

>>18425116
Based :3 anon

>>18422518
>Buddhism is so, so black-pilled about anything and everything outside the search for Enlightenment
You're a pussy, that's it.

>>18422627
Why do you trust academics, but not tradition?

>>18427793
Meditate on the greatness of an infinite God. Meditate on his perfection. Then bear witness to your sin.

>>18422495
Antinatalism is a weak mans philosophy. I believe it’s better to suffer and have the freedom to respond to it as you wish than to never exist and have the choice at all

>>18422495
>people think Ecclesiastes is nihilistic
It's so over for this board. There is no hope for it.

>>18423726
>Okay, I will look into that, but it doesn't change the fact that the idea of afterlife in Ecclesiastes is essentially the Jewish one, does it?
Not that anon, but yes, it is. You die, you go to Sheol with the Rephaim (shades) and sleep. Similar to other afterlife conceptions in the area, Hades, the Assyrian concept etc.

>>18431391
One is less biased about their cult than the other.

>>18432214
It's just the buddhist brainlets, nobody who isn't a nihilist would think ecclesiastes is nihilistic