/lit/ - Literature

>>18377405
Me except I read neither and I came out an atheist

>>18377413
Same except I read both. Calvin seemed refreshingly lucid and intelligent after reading lunatics like Athanasius.

>>18377405
I am a Protestant and have read a decent amount of them. You can obviously come out of it both ways, since the Church Fathers are a diverse group of people who you can appeal to in order to argue for all kinds of things. However, the position which best makes since of that fact is certainly Protestantism, since Protestants don't have to pretend that the Church Fathers constitute a unified body of tradition. Nor do they have to appeal to convoluted doctrinal development hypotheses in order to explain why the Church Fathers didn't believe things later Catholics were required to believe, in spite of the Catholic Church claiming it's always taught the same thing.

>>18377405
I've read bits of both, and after having done so, I am a particular fan of Luther. Catholic Christianity promotes a legalist system of public worship and political power that is effectively no different than any other religion. Protestantism is a much more apolitical faith, but who can argue with that in the modern world?

If religion means something more to you than politics, social cohesion and big cathedrals, then Protestantism is the only kind of spirituality that makes any sense.

>>18377433
What makes Athanasius a lunatic according to you?

>>18377546
>If religion means something more to you than politics, social cohesion and big cathedrals, then Protestantism is the only kind of spirituality that makes any sense.
What if religion is virtually everything, including all of these?

>>18377546
The separation of religion from politics and social life is essentially what killed it.

>>18377405
Bits of both. The reformers were great. I hadn't thought a conversation on christianity could be so lively. Paedobaptism isn't ideal and certainly the trinity is nonsense to me.

>>18377625
>the trinity is nonsense to me.
All the major reformers believed in the trinity you illiterate retard.

>>18377405
>>18377580
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus

This guy is based asf if a bit overbearing in his theological views

>>18377580
>The separation of religion from politics and social life is essentially what killed it.
I understand how you could come to that view, but I also understand that you are an atheist. If you were a Christian then you would be willing to see that God is at work even to this day, and everything else is quite irrelevant.

>>18377573
>What if religion is virtually everything?
It's actually not; faith alone is the test of faith alone. Everything other than God is altogether meaningless and a function of providence.

You can clear this one up for yourself with a quick perusal of Ecclesiastes.

>>18377667
You think it's irrelevant that Christianity is on a massive decline on our already secularized society?

>>18377631
>major reformers
Yeech might want to check that time period again. Poland and Transylvania were home to a strong unitarian culture and it had strong followings everywhere. It is doctrinally and metaphysically proper to be Unitarian. Hell, Newton created his physics around it.

>Jesus in glory on the mount
>with Eli and Moses
>cloud comes over them
>"This is my son"
>then only Jesus before them
is the implication here not that all the prophets are the son? when the cloud comes and says this to them, to their awareness they have Jesus, Moses and Eli in front of them. It is after that only Jesus remains.

>>18377405
Anglican with Anabaptist sympathies. Does that work?

>>18377685
>Poland and Transylvania
Nobody cares about eastern european shitholes

>>18377631
>>18377685
Is anyone else waiting for a trinitarian physics... oh you're just burning people at the stake for suggesting any new scientific development and having to play catch up.

>>18377573
>What if religion is virtually everything, including all of these?
Then you're a Muslim

>>18377694
I think ppl care about a physics derived from the most ultimate truth and not some bourgeois divorce of the two so you can sniff your own farts for millenia

>>18377523
>Nor do they have to appeal to convoluted doctrinal development hypotheses in order to explain why the Church Fathers didn't believe things later Catholics were required to believe, in spite of the Catholic Church claiming it's always taught the same thing.
I recommend you read John Henry Newman’s An Essay On The Development of Christian Doctrine. I also recommend you stop being protestant, but that comes later.

>>18377546
But most of Protestantism is politicised even more than catholicism.

>>18377713
Nobody cares about that nerd shit

Luther's writings are half insults thrown at various people (half within his camp). He can get creative on that front. Some parts are schizo ramblings that he himself admitted as such (I recommend his recurrent hallucinations of the devil when he was constipated). The best thing I can say about him is that he is based. I couldn't describe it better. It's the sort of thing you would reply with "based", "based retard" or "your meds sir" had it been posted on 4chan.
Cranmer is outright terrible and changed his mind every five years to fit his social position.
Calvin is very superior literary wise but slightly more heretical. Points for barbecuing >>18377634

>>18377546
Catholicism has never been legalistic. It is among protestant that you see legalism, and in particular a revival of pretenses of following mosaic law. This is true through all Calvinism until the end of the Arminian disputes. Luther had such temptations but was limited by his advisors, although it completely degenerated in complete political control already by the time they changed their doctrine of marriage in the case of the Landgrave of Hesse.
It is also the one that separated from political power, while protestant built churches controlled by the state (yes, even anabaptists). Only after long waves of mutual persecution did new sects arise against it, often getting inspirations from and citing books by counter-reformation writers like Suarez, Molina, Mariana or La Boetie, and going against all the principles of the first generation of protestant reformers, until they agreed on the Monarchomach doctrines.
I am not arguing for or against any position here, but you have the positions of the various sides completely reversed.

>>18377546
>If religion means something more to you than politics, social cohesion and big cathedrals, then Protestantism is the only kind of spirituality that makes any sense.
Catholicism has a place in all of that because it’s not a dead, sterile cult like protestantism; the Catholic Church and its tradition is alive like the people who join it.

>>18377736
>his ultimate truth is locked in a metaphysical ivory tower
I get a big kick out of y'all then appropriating unitarians so I will reverse it, "What are you studying for then and why?". It seems you can't have a relationship with your God. You're a heretic.

>>18377747
>he has no relationship with his God just a long line of farts that is the church
You eat your gods and are a pagan. You deny children the right to a relationship with Christ unless you think a forced relationship is a proper doctrine. Are you for slavery, Catholic?

>>18377682
Is God still saving those whom he intends to save? Then it is irrelevant. This old world has been convulsed by much worse things than a bunch of disaffected Calvinist Christians deciding to experiment with atheism. Making these people outwardly profess Christ wouldn't save their souls, so I fail to see that there is a plan other than God's plan in relation to these people.

>>18377774
>You eat your gods and are a pagan
Confirmed for not reading the bible

>>18377755
>Catholic church is alive
Considering you eat your Gods (or one of them) I'd assume you were otherwise I'd have to consider you a demon.

>>18377784
Why wouldn't God intend to save everyone?

>>18377786
You eat your God as a purely material thing. Your millenia of justifying such a pagan tradition is not lost on anyone. Your church is dying and is "so christian" that it continually splits.

>>18377774
>>18377788
Stop repeating what your generic Pastor Smith says, anon. It’s not a good look.

>>18377795
Don't ask them that. That's offensive. They have 3 Gods. One who's in charge of hell and evil. Or is it 4 Gods?

>>18377805
Are you denying you eat one of your Gods as an actual material piece of him? You may lie, it wouldn't be the first rules y'all broke.

>>18377774
>gods
Nope. Hope you aren't some unitarian faggot that can't into ontology.
>eat
Yes. Explicitly said that you must, and yes explicitly said you must eat the flesh. Aren't your kind claiming to be bible Christians?
>pagan
????
>You deny children the right to a relationship with Christ unless you think a forced relationship is a proper doctrine.
Let's forbid talking about God to children, good idea.

>>18377799
>>18377807
This is a big problem in protestantism: these people are incapable of doing any thinking other than a material, teluric one. And you don’t fully grasp the infinite God that way.

>>18377817
>y'all
Anon, you write like a retard and think like a retard. It’s embarrassing.

>>18377817
It is the body and blood of Jesus Christ under the accidents of bread and wine.
(you) -> John 6:66

>>18377822
Name the trialist ontological commitment that one of your Gods has on creating hell. Did the son, the father or holy spirit invent hell? Which one do you use to account for evil? Or is there a fourth God? Don't talk to me about ontology you creep.

It said here eat my flesh and remember my sacrament didn't say consider it literal and it didn't say you have to continue.

>???
You get spiritual salvation from material things. There's no difference between you and sacrificial bird blood orgies.

You can talk with them and lead by example and allow them to have a relationship with God. You promote a cult by tarnishing the relationship. Your church split several times, mine invented a working physics framework.

>>18377795
Why are some people born rich? Why doesn't God intend that everyone is rich?

Life is not fair, but our hatred of unfairness is conditioned by original sin.

>>18377843
>the cope
You literally eat one of your dead Gods and you have no response. That's alright everytime you don't historically your bitch ass loses half their congregation. So much for holding the ultimate truth. Who looks like the dumb bitch now?

>>18377854
Yes, under the accidents. So material. You get spiritual salvation from materially eating your dead God. You are a pagan and a polytheist at that. And the cope will do you no good. Where's your physics framework. Y'all have a big mouth I'm sure you've got solutions with your ultimate truth. Not at all and you continually split. Embarassing truth you have.

>>18377855
dumping for information
>It said here eat my flesh and remember my sacrament didn't say consider it literal and it didn't say you have to continue.

The word "eat" has two moments in John 6 where they change. After his disciples are skeptical of his teaching and Jesus doubles down, Christ changes the exact word that translates "to eat" from phago (φάγω) to trogon (τρώγω) . The former is a general team for eating ("to eat") while the latter is a specific meaning that demonstrates the act of gnawing or crunching on food ("to masticate"). The disciples did not turn their backs on Christ because of symbolism but because it was graphic and "difficult to accept."

St Ignatius (St John's disciple) attesting to the real presence
>“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]). St. Ignatius of Antioch, st. John’s disciple, bishop of Antioch.

St Justin Martyr attesting
>“And this food is called among us Eucharistia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." - (First Apology, 66, cca 165 AD)

St Augustine
>“I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ” (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

>“What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction” (ibid., 272).

>>18377882
>5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

>9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
There is obviously no favoritism in terms of salvation between the fortunate and less fortunate.

>>18377795
>>18377882
Oh, I forgot my meme

>>18377888
Listen dogma is not your savior here. Yes for 2 millenia you have a bunch of morons eating material flesh of one of your Gods you sacrificed for spiritual salvation. You literally kill your Gods and act righteous about it. I don't even think y'all have another split left in y'all. Maybe use your trialism to develop a working math at least geez. When you going to break off a part of that ultimate truth and get your heads out of each other's asses?

To all trins: unitarianism is workable and operable. We don't need a bunch of buttsniffers with secrets to share to flourish. We flourish by truth given by God and that is all we hope to need. We need no material justification to protect inalienable universal truths and that is why, fundamentally, we can create real working bodies of knowledge with our understanding and relationship with God.

>>18377913
>>18377934
Just take your meds and leave

>>18377884
>So material. You get spiritual salvation from materially eating your dead God.
We aren't gnostics. One of the beauties of Christianity is the synthesis of the philosophical framework of the greeks. In God's creation there is a more optimistic outlook compared to neoplatonic emanation. Instead of matter being evil, it is good. This is also seen in the resurrection. Instead of only Christs' soul being resurrected, his body was as well.

>Genesis 1:31: “God saw all that He had made, and it was very good.”

>>18377902
I know that with God there is no favoritism, it is written even at Acts 10:34.

I was criticizing anon for disputing the doctrine of predestination, a doctrine which is orthodox and common to all Christians.

He asked why God didn't intend to save everyone, I let him know that he is a spiritual communist. Here are the posts:
>>18377795
>>18377882

I did. I came out as a polytheist. Wotan reigns

>>18377942
You did not answer my question however, you merely regurgitated Calvinist dogma.

>>18377957
>You did not answer my question
Which poster were you again?

>>18377913
>You literally kill your Gods and act righteous about it
The mass is an unbloody sacrifice and a reflection of the sacrifices of the old testament. Christ's sacrifice on the cross for us is a thing that we honor and glorify.

Luke 22:19
>And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

>>18377937
Heretic, your relationship with your Gods is so frail that you must strike at believers who seek to understsnd his creation in the natural world. You not only could not predict and understand more, you stroke out at those who wished to know more and found more.

>>18377940
The constant gnostic obsession y'all have is insane. Matter is derivatively good. It in no way can equal, even all combined, a spiritual salvation. A camel can enter the eye of a needle easier than a rich man the temple of God. You are playing a dangerous game profligate by lying about the word of God. Not unlike your church.

>>18377966
Both of those are me, obviously.

>>18377968
And so they did. If giving bread was what it required to be saved why don't y'all pacify yourself with serving bread to people all day. Oh, that might completely contradict His teachings. You a heretic and you will burn in hell.

>>18377855
You bring hell out of nowhere as if it was a difficulty. God created it, now cope.
>It said here eat my flesh and remember my sacrament didn't say consider it literal and it didn't say you have to continue.
He said you shall do it. Also does it again himself after that to make sure they understand. It is also confirmed in apostolic ages. Contrary to you, we don't think we know better than the apostles.
>You get spiritual salvation from material things.
We act on the material world. To claim out actions there are irrelevant is quite peculiar.
>Your church split several times, mine invented a working physics framework.
Our church doesn't split, it is in fact the main thing that most protestants rage against. There are people leaving it and making their own schismatic denominations outside. Consider the number of sects that rose from other protestant sects since 1500 against those that came directly from the Church. I am sure no one ever left your congregation.
As for the physics framework, I am a bit puzzled. First of all it is irrelevant to the question. Second, you were claiming we mixed material things into it. Third I am quite sure your sect has far fewer relevant scientists belonging to it than the Church, especially since you seem deep into heresy precluding more serious and numerous denominations. What's yours anyway?

>>18377884
>You literally eat one of your dead Gods and you have no response. That's alright everytime you don't historically your bitch ass loses half their congregation. So much for holding the ultimate truth. Who looks like the dumb bitch now?
u mad as hell bro, what is the matter

>>18377989
Mass is available pretty much every day of the week

>>18377995
>Genesis 1:31: “God saw all that He had made, and it was very good.”
So hell is good huh?

He said they shall do it and remember him by it.

Also I find it funny you don't think apostles were wrong but your St. Paul lost many debates with Greeks and Romans until he stole Plato's tripartite soul and invented the trinity.

They are irrelevant in terms of spiritual salvation.

Your church doesn't split? You can lie, pontificate about anything but you choose this? Is the orthodox christian still catholic? Were they once catholic? How do you define a split? Gtfo your high horse.

You have no physics framework which is derived from your understanding of the ultimate truth which can speak of material constitution or causation.

I am a Unitarian Universalist. We have the internet too but that wasn't directly derived from his unitarian understanding of God of what I'm aware.

>>18378012
So mass is okay but a real working relationship with God and Christ are not? Your church will break under the weight of your material corruption as it has done so before.

>>18378008
>the matter
Your God dumbass

>>18377980
It wasn't obvious to me. But I've already answered your question. Predestination is orthodox theology. Just look at Thomas Aquinas, he was Catholic and believed in predestination. Predestination is confirmed by Scripture.

So if you find predestination immoral, then you are a spiritual communist; you should also find it immoral that some people are born wealthy, or healthy or anything else where blessings are bestowed unequally.

You won't get moral philosophy from me on this point, because if I tried to explain it away, I would simply be another spiritual communist, except I would be the mentally defective spiritual communist, and it would be up to you to show me that I was a philosophical dunce.

But that's never gonna happen, because I reject your moralism; I'm perfectly comfortable with the fact that people are what they are, and that while God can change them, I cannot. You should be ashamed for envying the spiritual good of others, just like real communists should be ashamed for envying the material wealth of others. What other people have, has nothing to do with you. It is not your right to correct inequalities.

>>18377973
>Matter is derivatively good.
You are conflating matter itself with how matter is used. One who is obsessed with the things of this earth is lost not because he is obsessed with matter because he turns himself back on the purpose of creation, that is, to love and serve our Creator. But so too is the one who completely rejects the bodily creations that God has created. The word made flesh is holy. Mary is holy. God's saints are holy. These are creations that are good and must not be lowered to sin nor should they be spit upon. Intrinsically, the immaterial and material are both equal in God's creation.

We will end all protestants and muslims alike, if you wanna live convert. Otherwise suffer eternally after you are brought down by the sword

>the whole thread
I am going to show good will and blame Americans instead of protestantism.

Who invented it first, Plato 380bcor St. Paul 20ad after admitting Greek philosophers kicked his ass in debates?

>>18378062
Aquinas did not believe in predestination.

What do you guys think about Orthodoxism?

>>18378064
There is literally zero material things in any material relationship which equal spiritual salvation. I ask one example of a material thing in a material relationship which has the equivalence of accepting jesus died on the cross for your sins. Leave paedobaptism out of it.

>>18378067
You going to try to kill your other Gods and eat them before you get around to us?

>>18378087
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm

Summa, Pars Prima, Quaestio 23:
>It is fitting that God should predestine men. For all things are subject to His providence, as was shown above (I:22:2). Now it belongs to providence to direct things towards their end, as was also said (I:22:1 and I:22:2). The end towards which created things are directed by God is twofold; one which exceeds all proportion and faculty of created nature; and this end is life eternal, that consists in seeing God which is above the nature of every creature, as shown above (I:12:4). The other end, however, is proportionate to created nature, to which end created being can attain according to the power of its nature. Now if a thing cannot attain to something by the power of its nature, it must be directed thereto by another; thus, an arrow is directed by the archer towards a mark. Hence, properly speaking, a rational creature, capable of eternal life, is led towards it, directed, as it were, by God. The reason of that direction pre-exists in God; as in Him is the type of the order of all things towards an end, which we proved above to be providence. Now the type in the mind of the doer of something to be done, is a kind of pre-existence in him of the thing to be done. Hence the type of the aforesaid direction of a rational creature towards the end of life eternal is called predestination. For to destine, is to direct or send. Thus it is clear that predestination, as regards its objects, is a part of providence.

>>18378087
He did depending on what is meant by predestination, in that case certain causation. Calvinists sometimes try to sneak in argument of necessity or moral consequences by obfuscating those matters but "predestination" is found in any serious theologian.

>>18378060
>So mass is okay but a real working relationship with God and Christ are not?
Do you pray? The mass is the greatest prayer available to us.

>>18378090
>I ask one example of a material thing in a material relationship
Jesus's death on the cross was a material thing as well as a spiritual thing. His resurrection was as well. The same is true with the Eucharist.

>>18378097
double predestination is completely different from what Aquinas is talking about here

>>18378090
The Incarnation is a material thing, it's even in the name. The death of Jesus too. And so was his resurrection.
You're not making a good case bro.

>>18378113
You have material Gods you sacrifice because you can't figure out how to behave on your own. Your church will fall.

>>18378131
>You have material Gods you sacrifice
lol
Is Jesus not God? Is Jesus not "matter"? Is He not true God and true man?

>>18378113
>>18378125
So because of that everyone including Muslims are saved? Pagans? Atheists? I think you forget that it is solely a relationship with Jesus Christ that grants salvation. Not the death of Jesus alone.

>>18378049
Hell is created by man, not God.

>>18378141
Jesus is the son of God and he is not material. We don't need a warped sense of justice to justify Jesus' sacrifice.

I can understand theism still being around but how are people itt actually taking theological minutiae seriously?

>>18378142
Neither does the eucharist. It is not sufficient if that is your question.

>>18378144
Well I agree but catholics do not.

>>18378142
Where did anyone say that union with God is not needed for salvation? The Eucharist is a part of this union and "relationship" with Christ. (I don't like the word relationship because it puts too much emphasis on some type of mutual benefit | God doesn't benefit from us)

Just read biographies of them, you'll never want to be Protestant after that.

>>18378154
>Jesus is the son of God and he is not material.
oh really...

>>18378161
>>18378171
It is not sufficient. Material things do not equal spiritual salvation. It contradicts God's Word and not dogma.

>>18378158
>still
this word is truly the mark of the midwit

>>18377405
>DUDE YOU HAVE TO MARRY AND CONSUMMATE THAT SHIT AND WORK, WORK, WORK YOU CAN'T JUST DEDICATE YOURSELF TO CONTEMPLATION

>>18378154
>Jesus is the son of God and he is not material.
Incarnation didn't happen.
t. heretic
Next in line: monophysitism, then monothelitism

>>18378182
The Eucharist is not necessary for salvation because God is not bound by the sacraments.

>It contradicts God's Word and not dogma.
Well I mean if we are to agree with the premise that John 6 is talking about the real presence you better be careful with what you say...

John 6:53
>Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

>>18378154
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRt2cKvJLlE

>>18378203
I would be careful about eliminating all the rival arguments about god except yours. Might do a lot of damage to confidence in theology over the long term.

>>18377546
Based, Lutherpilled, and a little touch of blessed if I may say so myself

>>18378223
Are you even Christian? Early Christianity wasn't some type of personal philosophy where you debate theology and everything is all fine and dandy. It was a set and defined organism which had dogma and tradition under the guidance of the apostles and their successors.

>>18378223
Not really. Accepting everything and its opposite without calling errors out does much more damage to "confidence".
We are talking about denying the Incarnation here. You aren't Christian at all. Protestants don't want you either.

>>18378089
It's practically just Catholicism but replace pope with the patriarchs. They have some minor theological disagreements but nothing that really matters other than the fact that they think Rome was always merely equal to them (before falling into heresy).
Protestants don't give them much attention because they don't have much of a presence in the west and they don't have a history of struggling against them either. Most probably don't even know orthodox christians exist to be frank.

>>18378089
Better than Protestantism.

>>18377546
>Protestantism is a much more apolitical faith
BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

>>18378288
>They have some minor theological disagreements but nothing that really matters
That's largely true of the Russians and Greeks (who to be fair are what all westerners think about when talking about "Orthodoxy") but there are more heterodox churches like the Ethiopians or even most Copts (there is a smaller Catholic Egyptian Church) that never got over their butthurt at Chalcedon.

>>18378118
Not as different as you think. Double predestination simply means that God predestines some people to heaven and other people to hell.

Regular predestination is just that God predestines some people to heaven. But the only alternatives in the Catholic system are hell and purgatory. Purgatory is just a stopgap to get to heaven, so the only real alternative is hell.

To be doubly predestined or singly predestined doesn't actually change the result. Those who are not predestined to heaven, go to hell.

>>18378288
absolutely untrue, but whatever. patriarchs are way different from popes

>>18378358
What do you think posting a random TikTok proves? Maybe if you pointed out how so many Protestants gravitate towards retarded Republican politics you would have had a point.

>>18378373
cope harder heretic

>>18378386
seethe

>>18378358
Ok you kinda got me. Although I really only meant that the Catholics have a political church, where the Church is conceived of as a political force in its formulation, whereas Protestants are political on an individual basis.

It doesn't change my mind, but thank you for the perspective.

>>18378392

>>18378395
yeah and just look what happened when the catholic church stopped being political

Why are Christians OBSESSED with gays even tho they weren't a significantly when allot in the bible?

>>18378401
I like this guy. He's right too

>>18377580
It’s literally the exact opposite. If you tell people that God doesn’t like when men fuck each other and that that’s why it should be illegal then you shouldn’t be surprised when people leave your retarded religion

>>18378401
>Grug hate trannies
>Apolitical religion make trannies possible
>Grug hate apolitical religion
Fuck off, sorry we liberated you from the middle ages you brain dead retard. A few faggots don't invalidate centuries of centuries of technical progress that allow you to lay on your ass and shitpost while calling it a productive day.

>>18378424
>he's right
lmao know he isn't. hating sin is in the Bible if you would read it instead o just picking out a handful of verses that you can use out of context to justify your heresies like the devil when he tempted Christ in the desert.
>But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaites, which I also hate.
Apocalypse of St John chapter ii verse 6, Christ says he hates the sin of the Nicolaites, who were a heretical sect spreading false teachings. Christ hates sin but not sinners.

>>18378417
Rent free

>>18378439
the industrial revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. your masters didn't liberate anyone, they only enslaved us more, and the protestant work ethic which led to it is basically the voluntary form of what the jew in pic related is talking about (you are a "good goy"). since you guys don't believe that works are necessary for salvation, this means that there is no reason that Mr Goldberg should have to give you a day of from work, whereas in feudal Europe, peasants got over 100 days of for religious reasons under the catholic rulers. so instead of working to serve God, prots just work to serve mammon, all they care about is money and they somehow get a superiority complex over this.

>>18378417
learn how to speak english.

>>18378475
bruh you just posted cringe. weber was wrong and you're a dumb antisemite

>>18378484

>>18378492
the seethe is unreal. pls keep going

>>18378492

>>18378362
Except Aquinas never denies free will and the idea that we freely choose God's' grace or deny it. Calvin and Luther do. Aquinas' predestination is more so about God's foreknowledge than him actively sentencing people to hell or heaven. This foreknowledge is similar to what Boethius discussed in his Consolation (who influenced Aquinas).

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1083.htm

>>18378494
it's not seethe i'm just demonstrating the joys of protestantism

>>18378494
also notice how no one even refuted this post of mine>>18378449
unless that person is you and you switched tactics because you got btfo'd with fact and logic

>>18378535
whatever helps you forget vatican ii i suppose

>>18378552
>vatican ii
>Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

I think we all atleast can agree that 90% of youth ministers are cringe

>>18378552
vatican ii was a heretical robber council started by freemasons.

The poster using goofy mainline Anglophone protestants as an "own" of Luther isn't really that effective when we recall that "Leftcaths" exist, the Catholic laity as a collective is probably about as left-wing in practice as Protestants are if not more so depending on what country you ask in.

>>18378049
>y'all
>I am a Unitarian Universalist.
Now it all makes sense. You're a progressive heretic retard.

>>18378549
The main problem of this is not the individuals who espouse such nonsense it's more so the unknowability of whether or not something is wrong in Protestantism. There are priests like Fr James Martin who say such nonsense but in the Catholic Church it is at least certain that what he teaches is contrary to the faith.

>>18378584
this is heresy. it doesn't matter if you know it's the true church or not. basically what this would mean is that everyone goes to Heaven because if they knew the Catholic Church was true, they would be in it and the only reason for not being in it would be that a person doesn't know it's the true church of Jesus Christ. Even besides that, Vatican II also contradicts itself because it also says that anyone of any other religion can attain to salvation.

>>18378607
The difference is that Catholics actually have defined dogma. Protestants can interpret this or that away if they don't like it. God becomes what man wants in that instance.

>>18378607
those are fake catholics and at least one of these tik tok prots is a lutheran, i dont remember which one but i've seen the lutheran flower sign in one of there videos. it doesn't even matter though because every prot uses some degree of luther's theology

>>18378622
>Protestants can interpret this or that away if they don't like it.
But many Trad Catholics do this with Vatican II.

>>18378619
>Vatican II also contradicts itself because it also says that anyone of any other religion can attain to salvation.

Have you actually read Lumen Gentium? It's mainly responding to a developing case over the centuries which had to reconcile the advent of the new world. How can native americans exist? Are they saved? Well in the book of Romans we find Paul speaking about natural law and how it was written even upon the pagan heart (Romans 2:14-15).

>Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.
However this is very rare and is the exception
>But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.

>14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation.

https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

I suggest you watch this vid if interested
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St8TQsfLTQs

>>18378632
>they're fake Catholics
The majority of the Catholic laity worldwide probably have beliefs closer to a Leftcath than to a Trad. If you take their position to be basically "Communism but we ban abortion and try not to talk about the dogmas surrounding sexuality too much", this is about what I'd expect from a Catholic in Latin America.

>>18378638
Vatican II was a pastoral council. It isn't binding on the faithful mate.

>>18378619
Seems like the quote says that if you know truth and deny truth you're in trouble. One of us is a very bad reader. Also I thought the catechism said that anyone who is in the spirit of the church is good to go (which can include ignorant people from all over the world or other religions.)

>>18377405
I have read enough of them to know that they were Catholics.

>>18378666
The point I was trying to make here is that there are many instances in which dogma is not so clear-cut, indeed in this very thread we have 2 different Catholics with different opinions on whether V2 is valid, or we have people who just outright ignore certain encyclicals of Francis, etc.

I think a lot of the Protestant sectarianism at this point is due to the utterly hands-off nature of the religion in the UK and US especially, pretty much anything goes there.

>>18378666
Or to reiterate: there was no added dogma or infallible statements. Just a lot of teachings on previous dogma that are often too vague which allowed for the clergy to carry it out in a harmful way.

>>18378250
>>18378260
This thread of priestly bickering over who gets to wield the dogma is 100% proof of the continuity between Judaism and Christianity.

>>18378731
Sounds like you can turn literally anything into Judaism by making any claim contradictory to it thereby eliciting a response.

>>18378655
i came here to shit on prots, not in the mood for agruing about the heresies of vatican, which was 100% a dogmatic and infallible council if you accept it. you can't accept it and claim it was "just pastoral bro" while being intellectually honest. looking at you>>18378666
if you disagree you don't understand the nature of infallibility.

you guys should really take a good look at the sedevacantist position.

>>18378785
Where can I find dogmatic teaching about infallibility?

>>18378839
vatican I

>>18378785
but they literally said it was pastoral

>>18378839
the statement in Vatican I

>>18378869
Paul VI literally said it was infallible and binding. the whole pastoral only non-binding thing is just a complete cop out. anyway you have to do your own research on this, there is soooooo much material to cover and i can't get into it unless i prepare my notes before getting online to argue about it. and anyway Vatican II is the one thing you should be dedicated to researching as a catholic because it's the most important event since the Council of Trent. also look into the private revelations and prophecies as well as the marian apparitions. here's a starter link:
http://www.sacredheart-op.org/Prophetic%20Warnings.html
study Revelation as well.

you literally cannot sleep on this or you're fucked.

>>18377747
>Catholicism has never been legalistic
The "priests" hear confessions and claim to determine the exact amount of sin and sentence you to however many pagan "hail Mary" and "our Father" are required to repay.

>>18378899
>pagan
The Our father is in the Bible. Protestants will go to hell.

>>18377405
I've read much of Chrysostom and Augustine. A little of Athanasius, Irenaeus, and Cyril.

As strange as it sounds I've read very little of the actual Reformers. I'm more interested in the 17th century English Puritans, the Dutch Nadere Reformatie authors, and the great 19th century Evangelicals.

I was raised Pentecostal but ended up a confessional Presbyterian heavily influenced by Evangelical Anglicanism.

>>18378899
>pagan "hail Mary" and "our Father"
these prayers are LITERALLY the equivalent of reading scripture. They are copy pasted.

Protestantism ultimately only exists because the rebuild of old st peter's was so astronomically expensive

>>18378956
which is a shame because that church is fucking amazing

>>18378897
>you literally cannot sleep on this or you're fucked
This is what repels me about sedevacantists. You're saying that the laymen need to become theologians basically or they're fucked. That's absurd.

>>18379006
ikr. Just imagine a midieval farmer being a Sede.

>>18378897
The point is that there was no added doctrine

>>18377405
Yes, I came out of it a Mormon.

>>18378089
Also Satanic worshipers of Mary and "saints", but with better costumes and no Pope.

>>18377405
Young Catholics/Orthodox who get into the faith are based but rare, young Protestants who get into the faith are more common but are often more cringe and into trannies and israel

>>18378622
>Jerome didn't want other women to be higher than Mary in Heaven
>Now Mary remained a virgin even after Jesus was born, those siblings were just steps that weren't mentioned before
>let's pray to Mary

>>18378909
It's"in the Bible" but not as a prescription to be done a certain number of times corresponding to the severity of sin, and was in fact given by Jesus immediately after teaching against repetition.

>>18378076
>St. Paul 20ad after admitting Greek philosophers kicked his ass in debates?
source?

>>18379422
Look up the Council of Ephesus please. Mary is the Theotokos if you are to reject Nestorianism.

>those siblings were just steps that weren't mentioned before
pic related

>let's pray to Mary
Yes let us ask for her intercession

>>18379006
To treat Sedes fairly - some medieval Saints taught that 99.999% of people go to Hell (see: Leonard of Port Maurice). If you take this as reliable, becoming a theologian isn't too much to ask in the modern age where we can all read.

>>18379993
>A council post Satanic takeover matters

>>18378705
>The point I was trying to make here is that there are many instances in which dogma is not so clear-cut, indeed in this very thread we have 2 different
Not at all. Dogma is clear cut. V2 isn't dogma. It's a pastoral council of just opinions and intents. Its not dogma like the immaculate conception or something.
>>18379422
>Now Mary remained a virgin even after Jesus was born, those siblings were just steps that weren't mentioned before
Why do prostestants get so butthurt over the idea of Mary remaining a virgin her whole life? It's like they refuse to accept she could just live a life without sex. She gave birth to Christ and saw him preform miracles but then just turned around and had sex with Joseph? Doesn't make any sense. Mary was capable of living a chaste life and knew of how important things were that were happening in her life.

this thread is absolutely cringe

>>18380654
>She gave birth to Christ and saw him preform miracles but then just turned around and had sex with Joseph? Doesn't make any sense.
how does that not make sense

Protestants are a slave to capital and status.

I've actually taken graduate level courses in the Reformation and have read the Church Fathers. I'm not lying, either. I really have.

It made me more understanding and sympathetic to both sides, actually. I can't stand one side (Catholic or Protestant) bashing the other side. I also suspect the vast majority of the people who criticize the other side haven't actually read them.

99% of Catholics have never actually read any Luther or Calvin and 99% of Protestants have never actually tried to genuinely, sincerely understand the Catholic position on justification besides "muh working for salvation" cliches.

>>18377523
Are you trying to claim that the church fathers were part of several competing churches? Typical of a protestant to blaspheme against the history of the church, acting like some german who was completely disconnected from the tradition could possibly know more about the church than the church fathers, some of whom knew the apostles or people who knew the apostles

>>18379941
https://www.adamhamilton.com/blog/pauls-speech-to-the-athenians/
https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1976/02/paul-and-the-athenian-intellectuals?lang=eng

Reminder that if you only read books from your religion then you are ill prepared for the verbal sparring to come from someone of a different religion.

Be wise as serpents and harmless, like doves

>>18377573
>>18377704
Every religion (EVEN ISLAM) likes to put a schism between seeking political power and piety.

>>18377433
>Athanasius the defender of orthodoxy and the trinity against Arianism is a lunatic
Really Protestants? Not even an ounce of respect?

>>18377546
Tradcaths be seething at this. If I was religious I‘d rather return to my native religion of protestant christianity, become a buddhist or convert to islam than become catholic. Being catholic is the biggest larp ever conceived that doesn’t even larp, buddhists and lutherans do proper religion, muslims and other buddhists larp the best. Catholics lose on every front that is not being cucked by the church.

>>18378535
Why even be a christian at this point?

>>18380896
Converted some and managed to lay down the foundations of what it is now. In any case, salvation is not for everyone. Truth is not dependent on quantity. Paul was right because Christianity is the truth. I’m sorry if you fail to see this but at least devote your life to trying with an open heart.

>>18379006
>laymen need to become theologians basically or they're fucked.
uh yes, you have to not be a heretic in order to go to Heaven.
>>18380006
pretty much every saint teaches this and it's typified many times in the Bible itself, for example how only like 2 or 3 of the original Israelites who left Egypt actually made it to the promised land.
>>18379422
Jesus brother's were like His cousins, not step sibling from a previous marriage of Joseph's. look at the part in the OT when Abraham tells Pharaoh his wife Sarah is actually his sister. this wasn't a lie because she was his niece or cousin (can't exactly remember), which in Hebrew custom was considered a sister. also this isn't interpretation, it's literally clarified in the scripture itself.

>>18381665
If that was the case then why were indulgences a common practice? It is in fact more common to see optimism about the eternal destiny of most of the church in some periods. Saints varied dramatically in their teachings across time.

>>18377405
Yes and I can tell you Calvin was definitely on the spectrum. His theology is so tightly bound he leaves little room for actual mystery. It's like he saw Christian doctrine as the ruleset to a D&D game and sought to leave no gaps for his players to cheat his system.

>>18378685
Protestants don't believe the Church Fathers were Protestants, they think they were heretics who led the Church astray. Protestants basically believe the only time the actual Church existed was the 50 years after Pentecost and after that time it got irrevocably corrupted by Hellenism. Retarded? Yes but they obviously need to affirm this because the Catholic doctrines they deny stretch back to the 2nd Century.

Why do so many Christian youtubers always have a dopey, cowlike smile they feel the need to show off, is there some hidden commandment that says you always have to smile like an idiot?

>>18378475
>be peasant
>spine fucked at age 24 from working the fields all day
>could be worse though, local lord hasn't told us to use our hoes as clubs and go attack the next door barony for a while
>winter roles around, finally my time off!
>spend all day doing handiworks and trying not to starve to death
>make it through to spring cause I gorged myself during the harvest
>lost two more kids though
what a life!

>>18381828
all youtubers in general are like that, they're all faggots

>>18381828
They are stewards of herd animals. Wouldn't want to distress them.

>>18381855
cool story bugman

>>18381855
>he still believes enlightenment propaganda

>>18381874
>>18381885
Why are tradies indistinguishable from commies?
>cool story porky
>he still believes capitalist propaganda

>>18381873
I want to believe you're wrong

>>18380707
Not to mention she likely had the sex well before the baby or toddler Jesus was doing any miracles.

>>18380880
Funny how the even just the seven churches in Revelation weren't uniform.

>>18381960
>>18379422
ATHANASIUS
>“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the EVER-VIRGIN Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

HIPPOLYTUS OF ROME
>“But the pious confession of the believer is that . . . the Creator of all things incorporated with Himself a rational soul and a sensible body from the all-holy Mary, ever-virgin, by an undefiled conception, without conversion, and was made man in nature, but separate from wickedness. . . ” (Against Beron and Helix: Fragment VIII [A.D. 210])

JEROME
>“We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock” (ibid., 21).

AUGUSTINE
>“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the PERPETUAL VIRGINITY of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

AMBROSE OF MILAN
>“Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son” (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).

CYRIL OF ALEXANDRIA
>“[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin EVEN AFTER her childbearing” (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).

>>18381986
>As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin
dangerously based

>>18381995
volcel energy is unmatched

>>18381986
>behold these claims beginning 200-400+ years later
>credible sources

The older I get the more I feel like arguing about theology is less important than the social cohesion and societal implications of the faith. Protestantism never successfully asserted itself into local rituals or cultural life--there are little to no "protestant carnivals" or "protestant St. Joseph's Days" other than extremely basic bitch shit like Christmas. Catholicism and Orthodoxy, with their hagiography, calendars and emphasis on visuality and social integration are much stronger for maintaining the social fabric.

>>18377546
Mainline Protestantism is hanging on for dear life and adopting extreme woke politics as a last-ditch effort to keep from dying completely.

>>18382413
capitalist christmas is protestant in nature

>>18378373
Honestly Christian sects are conceptualized into three "traditions" of Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant; but I think "Evangelical" should be added as a fourth.

Protestantism used to sort itself out via "high-church vs low-church" but the difference between those is much less important socially and theologically than the difference between any traditional Protestant and Evangelical megachurch faith-healer type stuff.

>>18377546
>>18381576
Choosing Catholicism over Protestantism isn't a political choice; it's a response to the historical fact that Jesus instituted a Church on the figure of St. Peter through which he could extend salvation to the peoples.

With the possible exception of WWII, I can't think of any historical topic that got more coverage in U.S. history classes than basically trying to convince you of the evils of the Catholic Church lmao. Even at the time I thought it was weird that they went so out of their way to try to convince students that these guys were practically star wars villains.

>>18382735
You now know the KKK literally donated money to the Mexican government to help them genocide Catholics during the Cristero War

>>18382735
eh it seemed to me that the role of the Catholic Church in world history was drastically underplayed to make them seem unimportant, like they just hoped you would not look into it. my 7th grade history teacher was pretty based though and i remember him telling us about St Leo the Great meeting with Genghis Khan and somehow getting him to back off with no army or anything.

>>18382824
whoops meant attila the hun obviously

>>18382824
Could be state-dependent I guess. Of course it'd be a massive blindspot not to cover the influence of the Catholic Church in society, but the coursework purely focused on the "embarrassments." The importance of the Church's role was heavily emphasized -- one of the most emphasized things in the curriculum -- but the portrayal of that influence was always framed as an oppression. No one except someone who either was Catholic themselves or maybe bothered a little more with history outside the classroom would leave thinking very highly of Catholicism. Obviously I understand it, since America is majority protestant and has a somewhat shaky history with Catholicism, but even at the time I could register the "angle" the people that drew up the curriculum were going for.

>>18378956
There were a lot of dissident sects before Luther. They didn't succeed because they did not have the political support from the princes or the ability to spread their ideas through mass printed texts like Luther.

>>18382735
>schools teaching actual facts is bad against Catholicism
Maybe if Catholics weren't Satanic they wouldn't look so bad in the history books.

>>18383839
Did you know that Catholicism invented universities? Did your xe/xim teacher ever tell you that there was a Catholic order whose members would offer themselves willingly to slave owners in exchange of slaves, who would become free people?

>>18383839
your view of the world is inverted
continue your invective, it is only an ant hill to the mountain of suffering of all the saints and Christ
we will still pray for you

>>18383929
>Did you know that Catholicism invented universities?
That would be the Greeks.

>a Catholic order whose members would offer themselves willingly to slave owners in exchange of slaves
Sounds like a true effort to partake in good works, as opposed to pr*testants chasing capital and status while claiming their work is for God.

>>18378449
Christ is God, and may judge men.
Christ told men not to judge others, but to judge themselves.
Reread the Sermon on the Mount and contemplate your pride, it may benefit you to learn some humility.

>>18378535
>bible scholar
>believes the bible is capable of being wrong
lel. post more tiktoks they are funny.

>>18384050
My church doesn't invest in Hollywood filth.

>>18384264

>>18382275
>behold my interpretation 2000 years later
>credible

>>18384726
>queer theology

>>18385028
You’re right, theology is by its very nature pretty fucking gay

>>18385077
"Theology" was prior to "philosophy" historically. Just look at the Egyptians.

>>18385018
>behold, actually not interpreting, just taking the words for what they say and not bolting fan fiction onto them

Yes me.

I came out a muslim.

It most likely wasn't part of the curriculum (my teacher was a bit unorthodox) but my history teacher once tried to explain to my class the link between the Catholic Church and Nazism + Holocaust, which I found a bit obnoxious.

>>18385365
We've been over what "brother" in Greek means before retard. Not even Luther or Calvin believed that Jesus had siblings

>adelphos
https://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm

also Matthew 13:55
>55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude:
and then the "brothers" of Jesus are identified as sons of Mary THE WIFE OF Clopas
John 19;25
>25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen.
as well as Mark 15:40 and Matthew 27:56

>>18385077
>t. limpwristed faggot

>>18385433
>twists and stretches Scripture
>calls others retarded

Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

The contexts are all perfectly clear without need for squeezing things into them that aren't there. There was no mention of Joseph being an old man with preexisting kids. Repent of your Satanism.

>>18385391
Really? The classic is trying to connect On Jews and Their Lies with antisemitism on German society and ultimately blaming the holocaust on Luther

>>18385916
you're retarded, He says His true brethren are those who do the will of God (not you).

>>18386061
His true brethren as opposed to his actual half blood brethren, and full blown mother, whom he had a perfect opportunity then and there to instruct people to "venerate", yet he told the people to essentially disregard her and his earthly siblings.

>>18386209
whatever reprobate

>>18386209
*full blood
Seems the autocorrect got me in a particularly awkward spot there.
>>18386276
OK follower of Satan's "Church" that actually invests in Hollywood movies to make money off of evil flith.

>>18377405
Protestant

>>18386532
i don't follow the vatican II sect

>>18386644
>Satan didn't take control of Catholicism until VII

>>18386713
you're retarded and annoying. you're only argument is some fucking movie the vatican funded? get of /lit/ and go do some actual research or something. you do not do the will of God, you;re a reprobate and you will burn in Hell.

read both as an atheist, ended up Catholic

>>18386785
That is far from "my only argument", but do you really think that Christ's One True Church™ would be oriented in such a way that it invests in evil Hollywood filth and no telling what all other worldly things?

>>18385916
I'm not twisting scripture. You're refusing to address Mary of Clopas and who she actually is, which is the mother of James who is also identified as Jesus' supposed "brethren" or sibling to you in Matthew 13:55. I don't know why you brought up that quote in the bible, since it has nothing to do with Jesus' supposed siblings.

At the crucifixion in Matthew 27:56
>56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph,[a] and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.

Okay who is Mary in this instance?
John 19:25 tells us
>25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen.

Who is Mary of Cleophas/Clopas the mother of? Mark 15:40 tells us
>40 Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joseph,[a] and Salome.

>>18386903
Fake post

>>18387037
>I'm not twisting scripture
>until doesn't necessarily mean until

>>18378064

>>18378064
>the purpose of creation, that is, to love and serve our Creator.

How is the Phenomenal world conducive to this purpose?

>>18377940
>his body was as well.

What makes you think so?

>>18377405
To me, the prots btfoing the catholics was extremely similar to Jesus cleansing the temple. The catholics strayed so incredibly far from what Jesus taught.

The protestants aren't perfect, but they follow Christ's teachings the closest. I am not advocating for those limp wristed sects though, you definitely have to choose a truly devoted protestant sect.

>>18388267
I also have to add that I haven't read a word of Luther's works that I ever disagreed with.

>>18388267
>>18388279
Have you read both of them though?

>>18387306
Nice switching the goalposts retard.
That's an entirely separate problem. Tim 4:13 and Acts 25:21 both use the same greek word that is said in Matthew 1:25. Until in this instance means an action that did not occur up to a certain point. It does not mean the it necessarily will occur later.

Here is an example
1 Tim 4:13
>"Until [heōs] I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching."
Yet Timothy does not stop preaching even after Paul's visit.


>>18387424
Have you read the Old Testament? They sacrifice animals to God. Abel's sacrifice was greater than Cain's because his "material" offering was greater and more honorable to God.

>>18387462
Luke 24:3–7
>but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.

>>18377405
read erasmus

>>18388410
This.
On the Bondage of the Will and his debates with Erasmus are all you really need to know about the man known as Luther. Luther wasn't just trying to reform the church but was also trying to create entirely new doctrine that went against tradition and Christian orthodoxy. He tries to use the fathers to support himself in the Leipzig Debate but he has no support whatsoever to support what he believes about salvation. The nominalist God corrupted his brain and made him try to find solutions to cope with such a fearful God.

>>18377667
>faith alone is the test of faith alone
Can faith be cultivated?

>>18388384
I have read some works of the church fathers. Some seem way more interesting/persuasive than others. That's the problem with the church fathers. They are all over the place. In conclusion, it depends on the church father.

>>18388403
If i were having to twist and stretch Scripture like this in order to support my obvious paganism, I would repent and find a legitimately Christian church rather than just keep doubling down into Satanic practices.

>>18382471
This

>>18388403

What makes you think that the body was resurrected as opposed to, say, being destroyed?

>>18388403
>his "material" offering was greater

The more Matter one destroys the more one loves and serves God? So if one were to destroy the whole Phenomenal world then it could be said that that one loves and serves God the most?

A Lutheran priest once told me that the only thing the congregation had in common were that we are sinners and we'll die. That's pretty based desu

Nothing better than reading some Calvin on a pleasant Saturday morning.

>>18390759
I was assuming that the poster before was at least Christian.

>>18390771
Offerings to God don't have to be destroyed. Why would it be pleasing to God for man to offer what is evil to him? God must surely find that Abel's offering is more pleasing because it is more abundant, not because it is more evil. For example, it was pleasing to God to have the Ark of the Covenant made and made beautiful - or it was pleasing that the Staff of Moses was created.

The Logos literally became incarnate.

Both Irenaeus and Augustine reject the idea of prime matter being evil. To the Christian, everything is intrinsically good. This is where the ancient philosophical world diverges from the Christian one as a result of Exodus theology ("I am who am"). Etienne Gilson has a good section on this in his Spirit of Medieval Philosophy, "Christian Optimism" -> pic related

>>18391274
Always funny how Protestants like to use the fathers and then completely ignore multiple Ecumenical Councils that the fathers took part in.

I don't read fiction

>>18392420

You have not answered my question. If God finds Abel's offering more pleasing because it is more abundant then, Logically, he would be most pleased by a totally abundant offer, the whole world.

>>18392722
I think we are getting confused by what I mean by "matter is not evil." I am not saying that matter is good in the sense that it is good to be rich or wealthy. I am saying that matter by itself is intrinsically good since God made it. God didn't make anything evil.

But yes I would assume God would be more pleased by a more abundant offering. Cain's offering wasn't pleasing to God because he put matter above God. Does this mean that matter is evil? No, the offering of matter is a spiritual act as well as a material act. God uses matter in ways that humans can either choose to do evil things with them or good things with them. For instance, the procreative act is good and the sexual organs which are material are good by themselves. They remain good if they follow in line with their proper end. The point is, matter is intrinsically good but because of free will humans can act contrary to the finality of matter just as a rich man can be too involved with the things of this world.

Now let me ask you a question. If you believe matter by itself is evil, why do you believe God created matter? What is its purpose then? Why did God create evil? And why did he choose to become matter? (become incarnate) If matter is evil then it necessarily follows that Jesus himself is evil, which makes literally no sense because he is God. Also I'm assuming that you are at least Christian.

>>18393020

So Hiroshima, for example, would have likewise pleased God had he been accepting offerings at the time? And, again, would destroying the whole world please him the most in this sense?

To answer your questions: he created Matter because he is Evil. Its purpose is to torture you. He did not choose to become matter, God the Father, the good one, does not precede the Christological advent, only God the Father, the bad one, does and vulgar Christianity consists of the latter retroactively plagiarizing the former.

is eternal life eternal in the sense of perpetual throughout all time or in terms of being a-temporal?

>>18393133

Time itself in the vulgar sense is not Temporal. An eternal now from which past and future telescopically expand, nowhere does the "arrow" fly. In fact, quite the contrary, the more the present ostensibly moves away from the past, the more past there is and the more it bears down onto the present, and the more the present ostensibly approaches the future, the less future there is and the less it lends itself to the present. There is no paradox, the "arrow" does not actually move, the Demiurgic telescope expands both ways and "crucifies" the present. Consider the true Atemporal, as opposed to the mere a-Temporal, as the eternal now not only freed from the telescope but also as truly moving, as the "arrow": in this Temporal, there is neither rest nor motion, one dies of old age the same person one was at 17, but in the Atemporal there is both motion and rest, one truly leaves the past, the Temporal, behind to live forever in the Atemporal.

>>18393281
I can't tell if you get the question or not. what I mean by "a-temporal" is that it would have no necessary relationship with time. God has no necessary relationship with time, Gods existence in no way hinges on time. I understand time to be a system of coordinates, the movement through which is change. God does not change. But really the question is: is it possible for something to exist without a coordinate in time while at the same time not being God? The thing is that the greek word translated as "eternity" can also be translated as "perpetuity", and the meaning is quite different.

>>18388267
>but they follow Christ's teachings the closest.
By ignoring all the sacraments, including the most important one, the Eucharist. And splintering the church forever contrary to what JEsus prayed for.
True reformers are the saints, who elevate the church through their heroic virtue. Luther just wanted to break his celibacy vow.

>>18393115
I was working under the assumption that the previous anon was christian

>>18393115
And to answer your question which I think is a bad faith one, no, bombing innocent people is against the 5th commandment and is not equivalent to offering one's own property.

>>18393629
>By ignoring all the sacraments, including the most important one, the Eucharist.
Lutherans have it, and it's very similar to the Catholic one.
t. lives in a Lutheran country

>>18394045
Protestantism allowed for many denominations to reject it

>>18382471
But then the people claiming to be sitting on the Throne of Saint Peter turned all kinds of political, what gives???

>>18377405
>Has anyone here read BOTH the church fathers and the protestant reformers? Did you come out of it a catholic or a protestant?
I became an Evangelical Anglican. It's like the perfect balance.

>>18377405
No. I should though. Thank you for the reminder.

>>18394300
Seperation of church and state is a protestant enlightenment creation

Catholicism was btfo in the 2000s by popular opinion and has never recovered

>>18395450
>christianity was btfo in 34 AD with the discovery of sinners in its ranks

Anyone got a reading list chart image of whats OP talking about?

>>18394335
It doesn’t bother you that this sect was created so that some guy could divorce his wife?

>>18393943

The holocaust then? Again, what about the whole world? Would it please God the most?

>>18383832
there's always alt sects of every religion . that's not significant

>>18382471
I don't believe Christ transferred his spiritual authority to mere men so that they may be placed above the rest of us.

Acts 1 disproves apostolic succession.

>>18397580
It's a lot more nuanced than that. That may be the catalyst but it didn't just become a Protestant church overnight. When it first happened it literally was the old "Catholicism without the Pope" phrase people throw around. The King liked Catholicism. He was after all given the title Defender of the Faith by the Pope for his writings against Luther.

You've really got to read about the English Reformers themselves and see how they were able transform the English Church into a Protestant one.

>>18397760
It literally proves the sacrament of ordination though?

90% of American tradcaths are people raised in some milquetoast lame mainline Protestant church like all of their ancestors for hundreds of years who are desperately looking for some kind of spirituality so they "convert" without ever having engaged in any theology whatsoever just so they can combat "heretics" and have a place in life.

>>18398392
Most of them are just Irish or Italian.

The word of Jesus himself is enough for anyone. The structures of power which have arisen around him serve only those involved with the self-referential continuation of those structures for their own sake, and for the power they've accrued. God needs no intermediary save his son, and the church acts as a middleman between God and the people who might otherwise come to know him.

>>18398523
The structures of power come from Christ himself.

>>18398392
I was a born and raised catholic and always see people making this huge generalization just because they only interact with people online. Go to any Traditional Catholic parish, fssp, sspx, ick, and you'll see this is completely false.

Also even if it were true, what's wrong with them converting? The faith isn't about believing because your ancestors did. If that were true all christians would be catholic. And if we take that logic even further, everyone would be pagan.

>>18398523
With that sort of logic you would say that the apostles spreading the faith and teaching all nations were mediators. The bible doesn't explicitly lay out the doctrine of the trinity yet most orthodox christians believe it as a result of apostolic succession. There is one mediator in Christ and He chose his apostles to spread the gospel. 300 years later there is still much debate over arianism and other christological heresies. Without apostolic succession we would have no conclusion about the interpretation of the gospel over the trinity.

>>18381576
You don't sound like a very pious individual, why would anyone care what you believe then? You've spent too much time on this site, religion is a way of life that actively influences your every decision if you are truly devout. The real larp is you sitting in your mothers basement collecting funko pops. I'm catholic, and although I don't agree with some of the practices of the protestant sect of christianity, I can still respect them if they're adamantly pursuing christ. I'm convinced that whoever is making these posts is trying to divide christianity.

>>18378492
I'm glad my devout catholic great-grandmother can't use the internet, I can't imagine how'd she feel about seeing something so idiotically blasphemous.

>>18381828
Social Media influencers in general tend to put on a face, as it's all for the camera.

>>18398034
>You've really got to read about the English Reformers themselves
any book recommendations on this?

>>18400508
Light From Old Times by J.C. Ryle is a good introduction to the prominent English Reformers. It's a compilation of short biographies that he wrote on them. He starts with Wycliffe but then goes right to the 16th century with Ridley, Latimer, John Hooper, Bradford, and Rogers.

>>18400958
I should add the book also talks about their literary remains and gives extracts. So if one of them interests you then you can look up their full works.
You can get the free ebook here.
https://www.monergism.com/light-old-times-ebook

>>18401308
thank you anon

>>18381828
MARKETING
church is a business.
?

>>18384726
"I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent."

- Timothy 2:12

>>18378495
Did they mean to eat his body and drink his blood?

How do Christians deal with the fact that the oldest known Bible is hundreds of years older than Jesus himself? How can you have even the slightest confidence in the text having been unaltered from his actual gospel? I've seen the presence of the Church as an institution justified by things life apostolic succession, but I don't know how you account for the possibility that over those hundreds of years the Church began to justify its own existence by altering the Bible to suit its own purposes. Even assuming that there was actually a Jesus of Nazareth and he was God's son and that there was at one point a Bible which preached the actual word of God, there are years and years of time over which his gospel could have been altered, and there's absolutely no way to have certainty.

Assume for a second that I am not contesting the existence of God or that Jesus was his son. How do you rationalize the existence of the Church in ANY capacity?

>>18404216
>hundreds of years older than Jesus himself?
Sorry, hundreds of years YOUNGER.

>>18404216
>How do you rationalize the existence of the Church in ANY capacity?

I do not. The idea of a Church is bad and the Catholic one in particular is an abomination.

>>18404216
The Old Testment, an integral part of the Bible, is centuries older than Jesus. Anyways, everyone besides protestants know that Sola Fide is a stupid idea. The existance of a church (be it catholic, orthodox or protestant) serves the purpose of spreading the gospel and organizing the faithful

The historicity of Jesus of Nazareth is 100% agreed upon by both theologians and historians, stop with that stupid atheist cope. It's fair to question his divinity, but his existence is fact.

Does anyone know of an anthology or collection of the writings of the Church Fathers?
If they were complete texts that'd be cool but I'm ok with selections of the authors around different themes whether they be literary, historical, theological or philosophical

>>18405062
There are the Ante-Nicene, Nicene, and Post-Nicene Fathers sets translated by Philip Schaff. They go for quite a bit though. You could probably look up the contents and find pdfs. I don't think they are actually copyrighted anymore.

>>18405100
Hmm I mean yeah I could do that and it'd be ideal but my problem is that I'm not Christian nor do I have the interest in early Christianity to justify reading that many texts sadly

>>18405054
I'm not an atheist. It's the only reason I even asked that question. I'm not a Christian either, obviously. I have some sense of spirituality but it's pretty strictly nondenominational. That post was made in good faith, as is this one, in the spirit of genuine discussion on a topic I could stand to learn a lot more about. Thanks for the reply my man.
>>18404733
I guess this is kind of a major point of contention. Protestantism is a thing, after all. I was mostly just curious how Catholics addressed the lack of direct continuity for what seems like a couple centuries at least.

>>18405122
Just get a few monographs of the more common ones.
>The Apostolic Fathers published by Moody Press (one book that includes the First and Second Epistles of Clement, the Didache, the Epistles of Ignatius, the Epistle of Polycarp, the Epistle about Polycarp's Martyrdom, and the Shepherd of Hermas.)
>On the Incarnation by Athanasius
>Confessions by Augustine
>Sermons on Galatians by Chrysostom
>On the Apostolic Preaching by Irenaeus

>>18391274
Based Calvin-bro