/lit/ - Literature

>>18375191
It's a big discussion, but given the Greek culture I think it's quite implicit, especially when you've read Plato's Symposium.

>>18375191
They weren’t gay. Achilles does let Pat fuck one of his sex slaves.
>>18375199
Plato and his friends were degenerates from a later era.

>>18375240
>Plato and his friends were degenerates from a later era.
Non-degeneracy recedes further and further back into the past the more stuff you brainlets find in the past that does not fit your narrative.

>>18375191
it was widely accepted among Greeks that they were lovers (interestingly, Greek homos appear not to have sanctioned anal but would instead fuck the younger boy's thighs), though some contested it and claimed that they were simply friends.

>>18375240
Also, the idea that Greek homosexuality was centered on Plato and his buddies is totally laughable. Anti-homosexuality is actually a Platonic innovation, appearing in the later an more distinctively Platonic dialogues and not in the earlier and more distinctively Socratic ones.

>>18375191
It's a implication and the debate has being going on since the iliad inception, also
>implying modern ideas of homosexuality are the same of ancient/dark age Greece

>>18375191
>Yeah I want to have my ashes mixed with my bros when I die.
>Not my wife Deidamia or anything
>Just me and the boys.

Accept that it was a different culture with different values that included homosexuality and you will grow as a person.

>>18375316
kek'd hard at the image

>>18375191
There's nothing explicit in the Iliad, and I'm not sure if formalised homosexuality existed in Homeric Greece. However, classical Greeks seem to have taken it for granted that their relationship was pederastic. Aeschylus has Achilles address Patroclus' corpse thus in 'The Myrmidons':
>You abjured the holy sacrament of the thighs! You spurned a profusion of kisses!
(The play is for the most part lost, but this quote comes down to us in Plutarch, Athenaeus, and pseudo-Lucian in their discussions of pederasty).

Pindar uses the Achilles-Patroclus motif and the explicitly pederastic Zeus-Ganymede motif (which also appears in the Iliad) side by side in his tenth Olympian Ode.

Next we have Plato's Symposium, where the speaker Phaedrus expresses disagreement with Aeschylus' depiction of Achilles as the older partner (the erastes or "lover"):
>Aeschylus actually talks nonsense when he asserts that it was Achilles who was the lover of Patroclus: Achilles was not only more beautiful than Patroclus but also more beautiful than all the rest of the heroes, and still beardless; and according to Homer he was much younger.) As a consequence the gods, out of extreme admiration, honoured Achilles to an exceptional degree for having such a high regard for his lover.

Aeschines says this in his oration 'Against Timarchus':
>I will speak first of Homer, whom we rank among the oldest and wisest of the poets. Although he speaks in many places of Patroclus and Achilles, he hides their love and avoids giving a name to their friendship, thinking that the exceeding greatness of their affection is manifest to such of his hearers as are educated men.

As a notable point of dissension, in Xenophon's Symposium (in that text's discussion of pederasty) Socrates seems to disagree with the widespread erotic interpretation:
>Furthermore, Niceratus, Achilles is depicted by Homer gloriously avenging the dead Patroclus not because he was his favorite boy but because he was his companion. Orestes and Pylades, Theseus and Pirithous, and many other excellent heroes are praised for having achieved the most great and noble deeds together, not because they slept with each other, but because they admired each other.

The poet Theocritus, addressing a promiscuous boy he has his eye on, writes:
>We’ll be to one another like Achilles and his friend.

Shakespeare also makes lots of gay jokes about them in Troilus and Cressida.

That was the time, blowing and getting blown by your mate without needing to be homo for you to help a dude cum. Nowadays we take sex so seriously, we have to be turned on by someone and admit to it before we can fuck them, back then they were more relaxed about it: is it nicer when someone else wanks your wiener? Yes. Ok, then let a dude be a bro and let him make you cum.

>>18375320
Women are inferior. Why would I mix my ashes with a woman when there is a bro who looked after me since day one.

>>18375191
because there isn't. Homer's Achilles is not gay.

>>18375322
apparently there was a famous ritual that Alexander the Great and one of his homo-friends did that was meant to show "the great love" of Achilles and Patroclus

what people don't understand is that it is Homer's Achilles that isn't gay, but the un-Homeric Achilles is clearly pointing to him being a huge fag with Patroclus

>>18375191
It's not stated and the Iliad even makes a point of saying they slept on the opposite sides of their tent. In Homer's version they are very close friends. In later adaptations they are explicitly in a homosexual relationship.

>>18375387
I suspect Homer was editorializing all the fag shit out of the story.

>its implicit sam was clearly fucking frodo's thighs, tolkien just editorialized that part out, the later degenerates on deviant art 100 years later knew the true story

>>18375403
because there's a ton of greek works referencing all the homosexual shit between the two. it's quite clear that them being gay is part of the tradition; but it is missing in Homer. simplest explanation is that Homer wrote it all out. the illiad is simply part of the epic canon that Homer (or whomever we would identify as Homer) editorialized.

>>18375411
>sam and frodo are homosexual because of all the fanfiction referencing them as such, easiest explanation is that tolkien wrote it out

>>18375199
No. They were cousins. Even the gayest guys today would never boink their cousins.

There is also no reference in the Odyssey that Odysseus had sex with Nausicaa. Yet John Green calls him a serious adulterer, even though the only women we know for certain that he had sex with other than Penelope, Calypso and Circe, both a) LITERALLY FORCED HIM, aka rape and b) were immortals, while he was a puny little mortal.

Modern day pop "critics" are just that stupid. Remember, we now live in a cultural climate where you can translate πολυτρόπος with complicated and people will praise your "translation".

>>18375432
>2000 year old works are just fan fiction

hey, if you want to pretend achilles wasn't a faggot, that's your call, but that's a-historical. there's a reason why Homer wrote out all the fag shit, and it's probably because he disliked them.

Achilles and his legend predates Homer, you know that right?

>>18375444
Yes if the 2000 year old works came 800 years after the works they are referencing

>>18375440
>They were cousins
ancient literature like the bible is filled with cousin boinking

>>18375199
No. They were cousins. Even the gayest guys today would never boink their cousins.

There is also no reference in the Odyssey that Odysseus had sex with Nausicaa. Yet John Green calls him a serial adulterer, even though the only women we know for certain that he had sex with (other than Penelope) are Calypso and Circe. Both a) LITERALLY FORCED HIM, aka rape and b) were immortals, while he was a puny little mortal.

Modern day pop "critics" are just that stupid. Remember, we now live in a cultural climate where it's ok to translate "πολυτρόπος" with "complicated!" and people will praise your "translation" as ground breaking.

>>18375446
*400
>>18375444
You understand Homer was around in 800 bc and plato was around in 400 bc? Do you also understand homosexuality was not seen as a good thing in Athens during even Plato's time? According to the Athenian legal system if a male was "the bottom" even as a child they would lose all rights as citizens. For this reason it was illegal for teachers to be alone with their students after class is over or else they would be assumed to have raped them and be condemned to death.

The entire conflict of The Iliad is literally that Agamemnon took away the bitch Achilles was banging. Its insane to pretend Achilles was gay, and Plato was far from mainstream opinion in Greece lmao.

>>18375191
Of course they aren't gay, this is just modern nerds and trannies injecting stupid bullshit.

>>18375276
You're the one trying to force fit a narrative by assuming that every man who has feelings for another man is a homosexual. Coincidentally, this is hilarious because the actual concept of two men as brothers and good friends scares the shit out of you so you have to try and turn it "gay" in order for your pea brain to find some comfort. Says a whole lot more about you than anyone else.

>>18375468
>Do you also understand homosexuality was not seen as a good thing in Athens during even Plato's time? According to the Athenian legal system if a male was "the bottom" even as a child they would lose all rights as citizens.
This isn't true. You're deriving this from Aeschines oration against Timarchus, but Timarchus is guilty of prostituting himself, not merely having been a passive partner. Aeschines is very explicit about differentiating between permissible and impermissible sexual relations. Also if I recall correctly he says he holds Timarchus accountable precisely because he continued selling himself once he had reached the age of responsibility. I think I remember that children are NOT held responsible for being raped or prostituted.
>>18375511
Agamemnon disgraced Achilles by taking his rightful spoils. Achilles might not have had any special attachment to her. Not arguing that Homer depicts Achilles as homosexual, just clarifying this point. (Also Greeks didn't assume that homo and heterosexual desires were mutually exclusive like we do: many of our examples from antiquity have intercourse with both males and females, have pederastic relationships and heterosexual marriages).

>>18375316
lol aloud

>>18375369
This is why you will never experience love

>>18375453
>No. They were cousins. Even the gayest guys today would never boink their cousins.
Anon it was normal to marry one's cousin a little over a hundred years ago.

>>18375314
>Anti-homosexuality is actually a Platonic innovation
there were laws against it hundreds of years before he was alive you midwitted faggot, stop pushing your closeted pedophilia onto literary characters

>>18375555
>there were laws against it hundreds of years before he was alive you midwitted faggot, stop pushing your closeted pedophilia onto literary characters
"It seems to me that something must also be said about the love of boys; for this too has a bearing on education. The other Greeks either do as the Boeotians do, where man and boy are joined as couples and live together, or like the Eleans, who get to enjoy the charms of boys by making them grateful; there are also those who wholly prevent boy-lovers from conversing with boys. [...] in most of the Greek cities the laws do not oppose men’s desire for boys."
—Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaemonians, c. 380BC

>>18375546
You have it completely the opposite, its assumed you are the bottom if you are a prostitute so its not because he's a prostitue but because being a prostitute means you're a bottom, by Athenian law this means you lose all political rights, and this was based on the fact that Timarchus had prostituted himself as a youth so you are wrong or lying about the children.

>achilles might not have had any special attachment to her.
Achilles described in great detail how beautiful she was, you're fucking bullshitting if you think he didnt fuck her when she was in his chamber

>>18375561
Hilarious that it seems connected solely with pedophilia.

>>18375561
Your Plato literally describes himself in The Symposium that pederasty is a clear as day evil.

>>18375555
based quads

Why do so many modern trannies and revisionists and lesbian schoolmarm types have such a total fear of the powerful bond of male friendship? I've noticed it elsewhere in other facets of literature and pop culture. Like Frodo and Sam, the same people demand that they are homos. What makes these people so terrified of male brotherhood /lit/?

>>18375552
Maybe in your country. Here it's STILL illegal to marry a first-grade cousin, gay or not.

>>18375580
Can you show some textual evidence that it was "bottoming" that led to a loss of rights, rather than prostitution? Also, "youth" is an ambiguous term since it might refer to a young man who is a legal adult. Anyway, I'll quote Aeschines:
>Anyway, the law states explicitly that if any father or brother or uncle or anyone at all in the position of guardian hires a boy out as a prostitute—it does not allow an indictment to be brought against the boy in person but against the man who hired him out and the man who paid for him,the former because he hired him out and the latter, it says, because he hired him. And it has made the penalties the same for each of them, and it adds that any boy who has been hired out for prostitution is not obliged on reaching maturity to keep his father or provide him with a home; though on the father’s death he is to bury him and to carry out the other customary rites.
Here Aeschines is saying that the LAW says that a boy who is prostituted is not held accountable: his guardians are. To the point that he is not obligated, as an adult, to provide for his father. That is quite a dramatic sign of favour for the prostituted boy, if you know how important filial piety was for the Greeks.
Continuing on:
>But once he is entered in the deme register and knows the city’s laws and is now able todetermine right and wrong, the legislator from now on addresses nobody else but at this point the individual himself, Timarchus. And whatdoes he say? If any Athenian (he says) prostitutes himself, he is not to have the right to serve as one of the nine archons (the reason being, I think, that these officials wear a sacred wreath), nor to undertake any priesthood, since his body is quite unclean; and let him not serve (he says) as advocate for the state or hold any office ever, whether at home or abroad, whether selected by lot or elected by a vote...
>Any abuses he committed against his own body while still a boy I leave out of account. Let it be void like events under the Thirty or before Euclides, or any other official time limit of this sort that has been laid down. But the acts he has committed since reaching the age of reason and as a young man and in full knowledge of the laws, these I shall make the subject of my accusations, and I urge you to take them seriously
So Aeschines explicitly points out that Timarchus is being held accountable for prostituting himself as a legal adult. There is no reference to the crime being "bottoming".

>>18375595
Same reason divide-and-conquer is a thing. Everything in culture revolves around sex and sex revolves around power. In Italian, we even have a saying: to command is better than to f***.

In short, the Will to Power. It truly is a weapon to surpass Metal Gear.

>>18375580
>>18375629
Let us also see that Aeschines distinguishes between 'legitimate desire' and prostitution:
>Personally, I neither criticize legitimate desire, nor do I allege that boys of outstanding beauty have prostituted themselves; nor do I deny that I myself have felt desire and still do. And I do not deny that the rivalries and fights which the thing provokes have befallen me. As to the poems they ascribe to me, some I admit to, but in the case of the rest I deny that their character is that presented by my opponents, who distort them. According to my definition, desire for those who are noble and decent is characteristic of the generous and discerning spirit, but debauchery based on hiring someone for money I consider characteristic of a wanton and uncultivated man. And to be loved without corruption I count as noble,while to have been induced by money to prostitute oneself is shameful.The distance which separates them, the enormous difference, I shall try to explain to you in what follows.
It seems you have been proven wrong on every point.

>>18375629
You think men were paying to get fucked?

>>18375634
>It seems you have been proven wrong on every point.
Not at all you seem to have you reading comprehension though lmao.

>>18375640
>>18375644
Do you admit these points?
1. We have no quotes saying passive sex results in legal reprercussions
2. Aeschines singles out the exchange of coins as being what turns Timarchus' relations from being legitimate into debauched
If you disagree, please provide evidence.

>>18375653
>1. We have no quotes saying passive sex results in legal reprercussions
There are
>2. Aeschines singles out the exchange of coins as being what turns Timarchus' relations from being legitimate into debauched
If you disagree, please provide evidence.
He never said this

>>18375631
>to command is better than to f***.
Dangerously based. But you don't need to censor yourself here anon. We are speaking as free men are we not? Or at least, free enough in the sense that we may speak openly without reprisal.

>>18375653
Do you think men were paying to get fucked? Do you pay to get fucked in the ass is that why you don't think this is obvious?

>>18375561
I seriously think people here are confusing a relationship of mentor and student, which is described as a close friendship, with homosexuality.

>>18375634
Doesnt, he compares friendship to prostitution.

>>18375657
>There are
Can you provide them?
>He never said this
"to be loved without corruption I count as noble, while to have been induced by money to prostitute oneself is shameful."
Note that "to be loved" means to be the younger passive partner.
>>18375662
Men do get paid to get fucked. But even assuming they don't, it changes nothing. Aeschines himself distinguishes between legitimate pederastic relationships and those tainted by money. He is emphasising money. In Plato's Symposium, the speakers talk about how it is considered virtuous for a boy to play "hard to get". I think you are trying too hard to read laws against prostitution as laws against homosexuality, because of your own ideological biases, despite Aeschines' own words. I'm pretty sure a female courtesan comes under similar charges in another oration.
>>18375683
>friendship
He talks about erotic desire. He is using the word eros. He says "nor do I deny that I myself have felt desire and still do. And I do not deny that the rivalries and fights which the thing provokes have befallen me. As to the poems they ascribe to me, some I admit to" Chaste friendships typically do not provoke rivalries, nor physical desires, nor love poems.

>>18375673
The Greeks have wordsfor mentor and student that are separate from 'erastes' and 'eromenos' -- the constituent word in both of these words is 'eros' -- sexual, passionate, romantic desire.

>>18375691
>Can you provide them?
You already did
>"to be loved without corruption I count as noble, while to have been induced by money to prostitute oneself is shameful."
He's saying its shameful to get fucked in the ass
>Men do get paid to get fucked.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA YOU GET FUCKED IN THE ASS YOU ADMITTED IT

>>18375662
I find it weird you are gay but dont know assfucking stimulates the prostrate or some men enjoy being submissive.

>i am not gay

Yes you are.

>you are the one who knows about gay sex and is a fag

Shaming is womanly you are a fag

>>18375701
>you are the fag bc you dont pay other men to fuck you in the ass
This is truly a new level of fag cope

>>18375691
>>18375698
Thats not what Eros means, again people keep making up this lie that eros is primarily sexual. It is not

Its passionate love, for friend or family. You dont understand this because you are mentally ill.

>>18375700
>He's saying its shameful to get fucked in the ass
He doesnt, he is talking about friendship versus prostitution.

>>18375660
I realize that for some it may be a hard pill to swallow, but it is true, undoubtedly. The reason we have that saying is because if you have a lot power you can very easily get sex, even without asking, whereas having a lot of sex doesn't necessarily give you power.

>>18375706

>>18375703
If you read a description of love and think gay, you are gay. Period.

>>18375711
You literally quoted him saying its shameful to get fucked in the ass you pedophile faggot

>>18375718
Your definition of love is paying other men to fuck your ass?

>>18375700
>>18375719
This is a new and pathetic level of cope. Aeschines constantly refers the exchange of money as the perverse element in Timarchus' relationships. A woman who gets penetrated by her husband is not considered corrupt, a woman who gets penetrated by men for pay is.

>>18375714
Again. The kind of male bond between buddies in a war zone is love, a higher form friendship. You find the same kind of bond between aristocratic people.

In a Greek polis, most people are related, so there is the added compound of kinship.

You see a culture, highly aristocratic, where a deep passionate friendship is normal and possible.

People who dont understand are either gay or slaves.

>>18375719
>>18375721
Do you love your father?

If you think about penetrating him you are sick.

>>18375727
Delusional cope. You seem to forget heteiras were a thing, and they were primarily only for the aristocracy.

>>18375727
No for the last time man he's saying that as a result of being a pedophile he's a bottom and its shameful.

>A woman who gets penetrated by her husband is not considered corrupt, a woman who gets penetrated by men for pay is.
All women are getting penetrated for pay, you've outed yourself now for never having been on a date with one.

>>18375737
Bruh I'm going to bed, go and pay for your fucking aids but leave my parents out of this.

>>18375739
Ah we have ourselves an incel.

>>18375706
>>18375732
>Thats not what Eros means, again people keep making up this lie that eros is primarily sexual. It is not
>Its passionate love, for friend or family. You dont understand this because you are mentally ill.
By this standard we can't say that any heterosexual romance exists in ancient Greek literature either. In the overwhelming majority of cases, Eros is used to describe attraction to a beautiful woman or boy. To a wife, to a male beloved. Not friends, not family. This is part of the reason why people do not detect homosexuality in the Iliad, because Homer does NOT use the word eros.
>>18375738
Yes? And courtesans were considered corrupt women. Women couldn't vote anyway.

>>18375739
*prostitute

>>18375743
You love your father, you think he is a beautiful person and you admire him, clearly you want to fuck him.

>>18375745
SEETHING you can't form a coherent argument dumb ass faggot

>the Greeks did not practice heckin homosexuality!!

>>18375749
That is untrue and that also has nothing to do with you paying to get fucked in the ass.

>>18375746
>By this standard we can't say that any heterosexual romance exists in ancient Greek literature either.
I love my wife and I love my father.

So I am fucking my dad?

>>18375753
>>18375757

Do you love your parents?

>>18375754
>classical greece and homeric greece are the same
Majority of these sources are from late rome and way beyond anyway.

>>18375746
They were very much NOT considered corrupt, not all of them and certainly not automatically. And as for them not having power, Phryne was so rich and famous you'd have to be willfully ignorant to ignore the influence she had in her day.

>>18375760
do you pay to get fucked in the ass?

>>18375754
Most of those quotes are about friendship, or openly admit people think its amoral.

>>18375754
Most of those quotes are about friendship or people openly admit its anoral.

>>18375767
Do you love your parents?

>>18375758
Good thing the Greeks had multiple words for different kinds of love to avoid that

>>18375785
Again. So do we. We could have translated eros as lust, desire, friendship, kinship, comradery etc the fact the neutral love was used, signifies the true meaning of eros.

Do you love your father, yes or no?

>>18375772
>>18375779
The Greeks (generally) use the word 'philia' for friendship and 'eros' for romance and sexuality. The quotes listed are talking about eros. Plato's dialogue Lysis, which is about the definition of friendship (philia) investigates this definition by contrasting the non-romantic friendship between Lysis and Menexenus with the erotic crush that an older boy, Hippothales, has on Lysis. Note that this latter affection isn't considered immoral, because Socrates' reason for getting involved in the dialogue is to help speak to his beloved, about whom he is too smitten to interact with.
>>18375799
Anon that reasoning is dumb, translators use love because it's the best equivalent (readers will understand in the contex that it is referring to the kind of 'love' that exists between husband and wife). 'Lust' doesn't work because it is totally sexual and has connotations of excess and impropriety. And translators do use the word 'friendship' for other kinds of Greek loves like philia.

>>18375812
Do you love your dad, I ask this question a dozen times, I dont get an awnser.

Do you love your dad.

>>18375819
Yes. This is the worst trick question in the world lol. If I were Greek, I would not use the word 'eros' to describe the love I have for my dad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Loves

Is CS Lewis also some kind of Jew degenerate for thinking eros means sexual love?

>>18375754
>pedofags trying to rationalize themselves by mis-iintrepretating ancient texts
lol hows the stomach parasites from eating poop ??

>>18375825
>Eros
Which epoch? Originally he was a foundational being and only very later became involved with strange promisicuity. Greeks valued youth and power and saw this as beauty. That doesn't mean they were all homos. Such cope. Go rape a little boy.

>>18375825
>Is CS Lewis also some kind of Jew degenerate for thinking eros means sexual love?
He is a Christian....

Good to know you love your dad son, now please apply that definition of love too the greek texts and understand its about a higher form of friendship.

>>18375840
You're talking to someone who probably wrote a dissertation about how Frodo and Sam were homos... these people are just sick and deprived anon. they don't know love.

>>18375838
I think what happened to the Greeks is the same happening to us.

Gay sex used to be a taboo, but did happen, now it gets promoted, but the average man still thinks its perverse.

Imagine judging American society in 2200 by reading Oscar Wilde?

>>18375844
Yes. I seriously doubt the prohomo bunch have actually felt love for a human being. Faggots dont love their partners either

>>18375838
What is this misdirection? Eros' power was involved in heterosexual romances too.
>>18375840
>please apply that definition of love too the greek texts and understand its about a higher form of friendship.
Why has everyone from antiquity, through the Middle Ages, to the present day, who has known Greek and Latin, used the word eros to refer to sex and romance, and not "higher forms of friendship"? You are inventing this "higher form of friendship" nonsense to cope with the fact that the Greeks already had a word for friendship "philia", and so instead of acknowledging that eros refers to something different from friendship, are instead positing that it is simply a "heightened" form of it. Which makes no sense, because eros is not used to refer to comrades, but to romances between men and women (which are presumably not "friendships"). When people in the ancient world wanted to argue that such and such mythic figure was not in an erotic relationship with another male (I posted about this above) they would say it was merely philia, not eros. The mental gymnastics you are performing are truly deranged.

>>18375862
I love my wife anon, I have loved many woman before, I also love my parents and childhood friend.

>no love is about taking it up the ass.

I feel very sorry for you anon.

>>18375862
Sure, pedophiles existed (every single case in question is about pedophilia which is what homosexuality is based on). But the heroes were not homos. Achilles was not gay for his friend. This is just modern neo-fat transkin trying to justify their drug abuse and disposable lifestyles.

>>18375411

>there's a ton of greek works referencing all the homosexual shit between the two.

I'm not the other guy, but my (sketchy) knowledge is that the Trojan War was a real event which took place about 1200 BC (but really no-one knows to within a few hundred years). Homer wrote The Iliad in about 800 BC. He was drawing on a mixture of myth and story and genuine history which had grown up in the intervening 400 years. But are there any major surviving written works from that period, or is The Iliad the first?

If it is, it's hard to say for sure there was explicit homosexuality between Achilles & Patrocles, which Homer just chose to leave out. At most you can say it's likely because of what we know of Ancient Greek culture from other sources.

>>18375191
>implying that two bros that just love each other are faggots only for that reason alone

you people are the lowest scum of the earth, all your ancestors are ashamed and your mom wishes she had aborted you, never forget this

>>18375878
Pederasty was not 'pedophilic' in a way different from Greek heterosexuality. Greek men tended to get married when they were 30 years old, to girls who were about 14. Pederastic relationships were typically between boys in their teens and men in their 20s, so the age gap was actually slightly less than in Greek heterosexual relations.
>But the heroes were not homos.
Greek mythology wasn't static so many Greek gods and heroes had lots of male as well as female partners attributed to them:
-Zeus had Ganymede
-Apollo had Admetus, Branchus, carnus, Cyparissus, Hyacinth, Hymen, and Phorbas
-Hercacles had Abderus, Admetus, Corythus, Eurysthus, Hylas, Iolaus, Nireus, Polystratus, and Sostratus
>Achilles was not gay for his friend.
Not in Homer, but yes in Aeschylus, Plato, Pindar, Theocritus etc.

What purer love is there than that between men? People who sexualize it have mommy issues and are latent gays
Literary revisionism of all sorts is a big thing, it goes by unnoticed

>>18375908
No, he wasn't in any of those sources either. This is just modern revisionism pushing pedo-faggotry. All homosexuals are pedophiles, it is founded in pedophilia from small boys and sexual grooming. There is a reason why the entire planet rejected the rule of pedophiles without exception. Rulers fear strong bonds between men, so they try to sexualize them for purposes of control and to prevent men from organizing as brothers. Because when this happens then the tyrants always fall.

>>18375923
>No, he wasn't in any of those sources either. This is just modern revisionism pushing pedo-faggotry.
see >>18375322
If Aeschylus, Phaedrus, Aeschines etc. are not depicting their relationship as erotic, then what is Socrates in Xenophon's dialogue disagreeing with?

Faggots push this pedophilia trash in every single facet of life because they are a cult.

>>18375934
>pedastry is sexual
I am not convinced by this. Mentor and student is an old bond and I think those homonerds are the ones self-inserting some anime yaoi subplot into history because they were sexually abused as children.

>>18375934
>some pedos argued something and Xenophon and Socrates BTFO them
What surprise, it's almost like pedophiles have always tried to justify their faggotry.

>>18375951
Hmm but pederasty is spoken of as a desire. Something that some people have an inclination for. It is something that is allowed in some cities and forbidden in others. And virtuous boys are not expected to "give in" too easily. This does not sound like a chaste mentor-student relationship. (Ignoring all the poetry which is explicitly sexual). Xenophon talks about pederasts who are not attracted to women and would prefer to stay with males.
>>18375959
But that disavowal that only makes sense in a context where pederasty is a sexual-romantic relationship, because the discussion is about pederasty, and two of the people at the symposium are a pair of lovers. And it is definitely sexual in Aeschylus because Achilles laments that he will never kiss and have intercrural sex with Patroclus again.

>>18375985
Aeschylus was a pedophile homo that was discredited even in his own life.

>>18375997
I don't think there's any evidence of Aeschylus having homosexual romances, and I don't know what you mean by discredited, since he was a war hero and famous playwright. Lots of artists in antiquity depicted pederastic relationships without themselves sharing the desire. Ovid said he preferred women over boys but that doesn't stop him from depicting it mythologically. Virgil but depicts the unrequited love of Corydon for Amaryllis (probably modeled on Theocritus' poetry) but probably (despite the assertions of later ancient biographers) wasn't himself inclined to love of males.

>>18375316
Painfully accurate image

>>18375199
Not necessarily. That just means that by Plato's time, some people thought it must be like the pederastic relationships of the period. Going by the other myths surrounding the Trojan cycle, Achilles has a wife he loves, and ends up killing Thersites for making fun of him for fucking a (dead) woman.

>>18375322
>Shakespeare also makes lots of gay jokes about them in Troilus and Cressida.
Post them

>>18377584
THERSITES: Prithee, be silent, boy; I profit not by thy talk: thou art thought to be Achilles' male varlet.

PATROCLUS: Male varlet, you rogue! what's that?

THERSITES: Why, his masculine whore.

first one i found

>>18375411
>because there's a ton of greek works referencing all the homosexual shit between the two. it's quite clear that them being gay is part of the tradition;
So, by this measure, would you tell me Batman and Robin are REAL gay lovers just because it is part of our "tradition" and because it was repeatedly said by someone who is not "the author" of the story?
If two thousand years from now some alien race find our remains and conclude by the book "seduction of the innocent" that the two superdetectives were,
de fato, fags would it make it the "official" story?

>>18377763
It's more like if Batman and Robin were depicted as gay in every comic except the first.

>>18377789
>except the first.
The most famous and most widely read of the Greek World...

>>18378009
Lots of things that aren't in the Iliad were part of the popular consciousness of antiquity. The various Oresteia plays

>>18378522
kek'ed

What we understand as being considered gay today can’t be applied to 2000 years ago. It was just a complete different time and culture. Even if they did fuck, I wouldn’t consider them gay.

>>18375545
The greeks were probably one of the most gay cultures in the history of Europe and its well documented. And yes gay is a newer linguistic construct, but when a boy boinks a bussy and loves another dude like dudette - a wife, i think its ok to call it gay.

With the ad homonym, I kiss my bros and grap their ass platonically it's a true chad move.

>>18378522
>>18378574
Dude it's just pedophilia what's the big deal?

>>18375316
Filtered by the ship part much?

>>18375316
>INV ACHILLES LAYER
>INV ACHILLES LAYER
>INV ACHILLES LAYER
>INV ACHILLES LAYER

>>18375812
glad to see somebody who actually can read here lol

>>18375552
Yea, of the opposite sex. No one ever even imagined of marrying someone of your same sex. Stop watching porn, you coomer.

>>18378598
>Even if they did fuck, I wouldn’t consider them gay.
Now that is some deep denial. Why is it so hard for people to admit that Greeks and Romans were fags? I bet you that if you changed the names around and gave some of these Greek or Roman works to you guys to read, you would say those are the works of modern Jews trying to destroy society by promoting homofaggotry or some other /pol/ nonsense like that, but after learning they are from the ancients then suddenly it is some misinterpretation and they were just friends. You guys seethe so much at gays it's blinding you to the obvious.

>>18379237
Greeks yes, Romans are more up in the air. I get the impression Romans became increasingly intolerant of homosexuals once it became a "Greek" thing the upper-class did.

You can see this same strain of class intolerance in Aristophanes who clearly did not seem to like the homosexual aristocracy.

>>18378626
It was one of the most pedophilic, though. There was no such thing as same-sex marriage and generally gay relationships ended when men grew beards; Achilles and Patroclus are one of the few "adult" relationships out there.

As other anons have noted, there was also push-back against homosexuality (even before the Christians) as an upper-class vice long before the Romans came into the scene.

>>18378598
This is true, but it's really irrelevant because the Greeks didn't consider them in a sexual relationship. There isn't a single Greek depiction of the two of them where their cockheads are out. This (an exposed glans) was the way the Greeks depicted that a male was in a sexual relationship with someone else present in the scene.

>>18379237
>wtf why dont people think that dudes in 700BC believed in nonsense made up in the 1970sAD?!
Hmm... I wonder why...

>>18380551
Are you seriously suggesting that the values and beliefs of the Ancient Greeks don't line up with whatever the mainstream American media is promoting at a given point in time?

>>18375191
They weren't gay. But Plato's Athens was a high point of faggotry somewhat like the one we're living through now so there were tons of gayreek agoredditors fennelfacing about the alleged Homeric homo fuckfest.

>>18380579
Anon we're talking about a culture where men tied their foreskins closed because walking around nude was perfectly fine but exposing your cockhead was considered indecent. Why the fuck would you think that these people believed that there were 62 genders because some Jewish psychologist said so, or that a man is supposed to dye his hair green and talk with a lisp just because he's sexually attracted to other men's asses?

>>18375191
>Two dudes can still be homies without being gay you know
Missed opportunity to say
>Two dudes can be homies without being homos

>>18380551
>nonsense made up in the 1970sAD

>>18378598
>wouldn't consider men fucking each other gay

There must be something being lost in communication in this thread. So let's start from the basics: what is a gay man? It's a man who feels sexual attraction to other men. We can see that in Greece and Rome, it's not something invented in the 70s. You guys must be using some other definition of gay if you think you can fuck another man without being gay.

>>18381620
people just object to calling them 'gay' along Foucauldian lines, that they had sex with men but that this attraction has nothing to do with the image we have of a 'gay man', which encompasses lots of behaviours outside of just fucking men and which is historically limited, beginning in foucaults account in
the victorian era

>>18381739
I doubt would call some prison gang member a homo.

>>18375444
It doesn’t even have to be fan fiction. There are plenty of dumb academics writing papers about literally characters being secretly gay even though it’s not even close to being present in the actual text.

This is all just a homosexual cope.

> but but my Ancient Greece, we was philosophers and hero’s and shiet.

>>18375595
Because nothing is more powerful than the bond of brotherhood. It scares them which is why they try to make it gay, in order to dissuade male affection.

Read any greek author. Read Plato's Symposium, it'll take you like an hour and a half. Plato (and literally every classical Greek author) is unequivocally writing about man-boy sexual relationships as a normal part of society. He is not talking about friendship- he makes direct comparisons to sexual love between man and woman and frames it in terms of lust and beauty. Read the Lysis. Read Pindar. I don't know how you people come on here and passionately argue about shit you've never read. 'Eros' is simply not used in any of the literature to describe love for members of your family or for your friends.

>>18381754
Yeah, I understand that fucking men doesn't make you some pride parade queer, and in situations like that you don't internalize it as a marker of your identity that you fuck men. That's what I just explained