/lit/ - Literature

>>18369305
If life isn’t worth the suffering involved, then go shoot yourself right now.

The Vanity of Compassion

>How can one still have ideals when there are so many blind, deaf, and mad people in the world? How can I remorselessly enjoy the light another cannot see or the sound another cannot hear? I feel like a thief of light. Have we not stolen light from the blind and sound from the deaf? Isn't our very lucidity responsible for the madman's darkness? When I think about such things, I lose all courage and will, thoughts seem useless, and compassion, vain. For I do not feel mediocre enough to feel compassion for anyone. Compassion is a sign of superficiality: broken destinies and unrelenting misery either make you scream or turn you to stone. Pity is not only inefficient; it is also insulting. And besides, how can you pity another when you yourself suffer ignominously? Compassion is as common as it is because it does not bind you to anything! Nobody in this world has yet died from another's suffering. And the one who said that he died for us did not die; he was killed.

On the Heights of Despair, Cioran

Being alive is being a monster so fuck off. People have reasonable brains they can think for themselves. They don't need your shitty compassion. By showing this phony compassion you are trying to be noble, the great fucking moralist. But you should see for you really are before larp as a great saint.

>>18369305
Didn't this shit resolve yesterday? Why post it again?

>>18369451
Who cares about blind people you don’t know and will never meet lmao

>>18369455
No one and this is the vanity of compassion.

>>18369305
Abloo bloo people are suffering ;((((((((

So fucking what, get to the real point which is that you don't believe in god and therefore everything is pointless without suffering let alone with it.

>>18369485
Even with a God everything in this world is still meaningless.

If only David Benatar wasn't such a fucking lying propagandist. You know he has kids right? He makes up this excuse that he can't reveal his identity because of "death threats" yet he doesn't mind having an office in a university public building where anyone can find him.

This all becomes very clear once you read his early life section on Wikipedia.

>>18369500
>Da Joos
The classic

Wisdom Of Silenus:
>"You, most blessed and happiest among humans, may well consider those blessed and happiest who have departed this life before you, and thus you may consider it unlawful, indeed blasphemous, to speak anything ill or false of them, since they now have been transformed into a better and more refined nature. This thought is indeed so old that the one who first uttered it is no longer known; it has been passed down to us from eternity, and hence doubtless it is true. Moreover, you know what is so often said and passes for a trite expression. What is that, he asked? He answered: It is best not to be born at all; and next to that, it is better to die than to live; and this is confirmed even by divine testimony. Pertinently to this they say that Midas, after hunting, asked his captive Silenus somewhat urgently, what was the most desirable thing among humankind. At first he could offer no response, and was obstinately silent. At length, when Midas would not stop plaguing him, he erupted with these words, though very unwillingly: 'you, seed of an evil genius and precarious offspring of hard fortune, whose life is but for a day, why do you compel me to tell you those things of which it is better you should remain ignorant? For he lives with the least worry who knows not his misfortune; but for humans, the best for them is not to be born at all, not to partake of nature's excellence; not to be is best, for both sexes. This should be our choice, if choice we have; and the next to this is, when we are born, to die as soon as we can.' It is plain therefore, that he declared the condition of the dead to be better than that of the living."

Hegesias of Cyrene, Death by Starvation:
>The book was called Death by Starvation or The Death-Persuader. According to the Roman orator Cicero (lived 106 – 43 BC), the entire book was essentially an argument for why everyone should just give up on life and kill themselves.

Ecclesiastes 4:1
>Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun: I saw the tears of the oppressed-- and they have no comforter; power was on the side of their oppressors-- and they have no comforter.
Ecclesiastes 4:2
>And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive.
Ecclesiastes 4:3
>But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun.


THE DIALOGUE OF PESSIMISM, MESOPOTAMIAN WISDOM
>XI - CONCLUSION
>What then is good? To have my neck and yours broken, Or to be thrown into the river, is that good?
>Who is so tall as to ascend to heaven? Who is so broad as to encompass the entire world?

First Two Noble Truth of Buddhism:
>dukkha (suffering, incapable of satisfying, painful) is an innate characteristic of existence in the realm of samsara;
>samudaya (origin, arising) of this dukkha, which arises or "comes together" with taṇhā ("craving, desire or attachment")

>>18369511
Cool, now kill yourself since the world is so bad apparently

>>18369511
>THE DIALOGUE OF PESSIMISM, MESOPOTAMIAN WISDOM
Damn how have I never heard of this?

Life is not worth living if you're under 6 feet tall.

>>18369533
Ronnie Coleman was 5’11” and looked like a Marvel character fuck off with that nonsense

>>18369539
A manlet nigger is what he was.

>>18369546
If you called him that he’d pull your skull off of your body like the Predator

>>18369453
It gets resolved every week when OP gets BTFOd but this retard keeps making these threads. It's either a depressed sperg seeking company in his misery, or a no life baiter.
>>18369491
You don't know what God is.
>>18369500
Lmao, every single time
>>18369511
>Da Joos
>The classic
Yes, there's obviously a pattern with this neurotic species.
>>18369305
Just kill yourself.

>>18369527
I am here to make fags like you seethe.

>>18369529
Cool stuff.
Pessimism is an ancient philosophy. Anyone tries to paint it "modern" or propaganda by da joos is a brainlet.

>>18369562
>Pessimism is an ancient philosophy
Yes there’s always been unhappy losers.

>>18369558
>Yes, there's obviously a pattern with this neurotic species.
Yes the ancient Greeks, Mesopotemians, Indians were all the da jooooos

>>18369551
That cripple can't even fucking stand.

>>18369562
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue_of_Pessimism
>Slave, listen to me! Here I am, master, here I am!
>I want to make love to a woman! Make love, master, make love!
>The man who makes love forgets sorrow and fear!
>O well, slave, I do not want to make love to a woman.
>Do not make love, master, do not make love.
>Woman is a real pitfall, a hole, a ditch,
>Woman is a sharp iron dagger that cuts a man’s throat.
kek, some things never change

>>18369511
>Hegesias of Cyrene, Death by Starvation
I really wish that book had survived.

>>18369566
>a faggot on 4chan is talking about happiness
Fucking failed normalfag

>>18369574
Some outliers do not represent the rest of their people, you absolute retard. Greek, Indian etc philosophy on the whole is not neurotic. Jews on the other hand are known for being much more neurotic than the average person. Their religion is neurotic.

>>18369491
There is nothing worse than this utilitarian crap talking about how many millions of people get fucked in the ass by their dad and measuring suffering points as some retarded substitute for actual morality that benatar doesn't believe in. Does he actually talk about real philosophy in this book or is it just him quoting statistics hoping you won't notice he has no foundation for ANY moral framework at all.

>>18369599
>outliers
Silenus was a Greek God
The Dialogue of Pessimism is few of the surviving literature from Mesopotemia
Buddhism is a one of the biggest religion in the world
Ecclesiastes is one of the core book of Christianity

>>18369632
>a few cherry picked quotes
>not outliers
Alright then retard, just kill yourself and be done with it instead of crying like a woman

>>18369611
When you have God, what good to you the cinema of hours played in front of you? The first and the foremost task of a believer is Unity with God because he understands to temporarily of material things. All is vanity other than God.

>>18369596
Speak for yourself, loser.

>>18369648
Where is the cherry picking?
The Dialogue Pessimism is presented in its entirety, Wisdom of Silenus is resented in its entirety, Hegesias of Cyrene's biography was told to us by Cicero.
The first noble truth of Buddhism and Ecclesiastes inspired the pessimistic thought throughout the East and West.

>>18369698
Everywhere, you try and make it seem like all western philosophy is pessimism while you just cherry pick some quotes and pretend there's nothing else. You also don't know what pessimism is, and try to project your modern notion unto old wisdom.
Why haven't you killed yourself yet? Would save you a lot of suffering.

J-Just kill yourself!!!!!!!

Is this really all you can reply? I made the op post to know what do you think about sufferings in the world, in particular why some of you believe that all suferring is a positive thing.

>>18369670
Nah, bro I swim in pussy and money. In fact you're talking with Timothée Chalamet right now. I am really really happy and you will never reach my level, fucking loser.

>>18369721
No, you just wanted to bait. You could have found out the answer by searching the archive for the other 500 posts that all go exactly the same.
Unironically kill yourself.

>>18369721
I’m largely ambivalent about the suffering of people I don’t know personally, and when I’m not ambivalent about suffering, I believe you should get over it anyway and not let it bother you.

>>18369728
Yea, that's really all you are able to say.

>>18369742
>wehh wehh suffering is bad, I wish I were never born
Yea, that's really all you are able to say.

>>18369718
>all western philosophy is pessimism
Never implied that.
I am just showing the ancient origins of Pessimism in response to people who try to label it as a "modern" concept. All I am saying is that Pessimism is as old as human thought. I am not denying other philosophical positions in the ancient world.
We need to spread to word for gaining a collective redemption. Killing myself would be solipsistic move.

People are selfish and say that the suffering of others is worth it because it enables them to be happy. This is how most of the global consumer market works. People often are made happier by deliberately harming others directly or indirectly. It happens most often in conversations about suffering that people turn it into a conversation of beating someone else down for disagreeing with them or use the conversation as a stepping stone to puff themselves up and showboat their own supposed happiness, though a lot of people who engage in that kind of behavior are actually very miserable which is why they feel the need to do those things in the first place.

>>18369754
Where the fuck did I say this in the op? I personally think life can have some things worth living for. Not all life are worth living in my eyes but that's subjective. My question was, given the visible suffering in the world, how can it be said that this suffering is entirely positive. I agree that sometime suffering can bring improvement, but not always like many anons say.

>>18369759
>Never implied that.
you did when you countered me saying jews are neurotic by implying Greeks, Indians etc were too. Apart from some outliers, they weren't.
>All I am saying is that Pessimism is as old as human thought.
As is retardedness. Your point is?
>We need to spread to word for gaining a collective redemption.
No we don't.
>Killing myself would be solipsistic move.
So? Just do it.

>>18369767
This is your position every single time you make this retarded thread.
>given the visible suffering in the world, how can it be said that this suffering is entirely positive
Nobody says that. But that doesn't mean it's entirely negative either. It can be either.

>>18369778
>Nobody says that. But that doesn't mean it's entirely negative either. It can be either.

Well, that's what I think too.

>>18369783
Okay, you could have found this out by looking in the archive for the 500 instances this exact thread was made.

>>18369769
They weren't outliners. Silenus was a Greek God who trained Dionysus. He was a major figure in Ancient Greece. You can find his influence in most of the Greek tragedies. All I am saying that Pessimism was a philosophical position which existed along with many other positions.
It's your subjective opinion that we don't need redemption and I can't argue with that. But I have to spread the word brother and not keen on solipsism because pain is real.

>>18369794
>But I have to spread the word brother and not keen on solipsism because pain is real.
No you don't, just kill yourself and the pain will end and we won't have to suffer because of your faggotry.

>>18369794
>not keen on solipsism
>keeps crying about how his life is bad therefore all life is bad
JFC I hope this is bait

>>18369805
Pain is real, it's not just about me. But other life.

>>18369811
Pain is universal, solipsists don't acknowledge the condition of other beings. It is a philosophy and no one is forcing anyone the best that philosophers can do is to present their positions. If someone don't buy it then it's fine, leave the thread.

>>18369836
>Pain is universal, solipsists don't acknowledge the condition of other beings.
Happiness is universal too, now what?
>Pain is real, it's not just about me. But other life.
No, you project your pain unto others which is an extremely solipsistic thing to do.
>If someone don't buy it then it's fine, leave the thread.
Fuck off and stop making this thread since it plays out the exact same every time. You've been doing this for ages and nothing has changed.

>>18369866
You don't seems to agree. Please leave the thread if you have been a part of last threads. There is no point in arguing with you.

>>18369876
>I only want to talk to people who agree
Fuck off, retard. Stop making these retarded threads and you won't hear from me again.
>There is no point in arguing with you.
Oh, the irony, it hurts.

>>18369886
Keep seething then and giving free bumps. I haven't made this thread but due to these threads I have found about pessimistic philosophy which completely resonated with me.

>>18369899
> I haven't made this thread but due to these threads I have found about pessimistic philosophy which completely resonated with me.
>10 unique posters
Sure buddy

>>18369428
it genuinely isnt, the only reason not to kill yourself is fear.

>>18369911
>One of fastest thread which gets most replies in shortest amount of time every week
Here goes another bump

>>18369946
And how does me bumping help you "spread the word?" You've made this thread 500 times and nothing has changed. You've converted no one. Most people here have no interest in participating in fast threads for good reason.

>>18369960
Keep seething and thanks for bumping.

>>18369962
And how does me bumping help you "spread the word?" You've made this thread 500 times and nothing has changed. You've converted no one.

>>18369968
(You)
Bump

>>18369973
>Still 10 unique posters
Not much good this bumping is doing for your holy mission eh?

>>18370032
(You)

>>18370156
>crickets
Nice going, have you killed yourself yet?

>>18370214
Man your obsessed with antinatalism.

This is true only for conditioned states of existence

>>18370525
Fuck enlightenment

>>18369305
Do people say suffering is positive? I think it depends it can be depending on the extremity and if u learn something from it. But either way it’s nonsensical to say non-existence is preferable because a non-state, a nothing, can’t be anything. We only know life

>>18369491
Good point. I never understand why theists act like the existence of god makes everything meaningful. Even with a god we’re still trapped in a world we didn't create. The playthings of a divinity. And (if you’re a Christian) forced to suffer cause some cunt once ate an apple. All sounds pretty absurd to me

>>18371207
I don't know how some Christian can't go on ascetic/denial of Will-to-Live route after reading these verses >>18369511 from Ecclesiastes.

>>18369305
>implying anyone cares about the suffering of others
I can understand caring about your own cat or dog, but no need to care about pigs, cows, and chickens. Your cat can't survive without eating meat anyway. And caring about the suffering of humans? Lol.

Life is fine.

>>18371262
christians don't read the bible silly goose

you havent truly lived if you deem life worth living

Suffering is not inherently positive, and neither is experience, but it is necessary for life to exist. If you are not living, you are either dead, or preborn. Prebirth has no perspective, or position to take on the matter. Get over it.

Why is the CIA pushing anti-natalism so hard? It’s on like virtually every online forum right now. I refuse to believe it’s an organic grassroots movement of sincere people.

>>18369305
Tl;dr

>>18371841
>>18369511

The Eternal glowies, huh?

>>18371858
You have to admit that this stuff exploded in popularity right around lockdown last year. I know it’s existed forever blah blah blah I don’t care about the history, not what I’m talking about. I’m just skeptical of spontaneous internet social movements.

>>18371785
still there are people who consider all suffering to be meaningful and I don't understand how

>>18371289
in that comfy pic yes, in other realities, no
>>18371284
It's not about caring. It's just baffling. I would care about those animals if they lived with me or near me, that is, I wouldn't have the courage to kill them to eat. Animal products just come on our tables without questions; even if you decide to stop eating meat, those animals will still be killed

>>18369305
Never underestimate the power of willful ignorance. I'm sure I'd be a whiny, nihilistic faggot if I concerned myself with every form of human suffering, too. I choose not to oversocialize myself. You should, too.

>>18371841
>I refuse to believe it’s an organic grassroots movement of sincere people
Why not? Industrial society demands population growth, and with medicine keeping people alive longer more young people are needed to pull that weight. All developed countries are worried about falling birth rates and even in poor countries this is beginning to become the case. If anything the CIA or whoever should be encouraging people to have kids. But on the other hand I can very easily see a cadre of over-educated, over-informed, socially anxious people deciding that life is a mistake because they lay awake at night remembering every time they were ever wronged and then finding eachother on the internet.

>>18371919
Fuck no, don't you know about the popularity of True Detective and Ligotti's the Conspiracy Against the human race? Also this books has been making waves across all academia since it's release.

>>18372408
The creator of True Detective says he’s highly critical of Pessimism and said that Russ’ behaviour was puerile coping for the trauma of running over his baby. Did you even watch the show moron

>>18372561
Oh you retarded bitch, just search on YouTube for his philosophy of Pessimism that video has 3.4 million views. He ended that show on me happy dappy note because otherwise they would have rejected it from playing it on the TV.

>>18372561
Not trauma, when says that Cioran quote that death of her daughter redeemed his sin of being a father. He pissed on the whole concept of procreation with this.

>>18371841
Why would the system push anti-natalism? It's antithesis to its interest of growing the population to sublimate and increase hegemony.

ban check

>>18372601
>citing youtube in an argument about tv on /lit/
this is a new low

>>18372642
It is an argument about contemporary zeitgeist. If you don't like it then go lick the boots of Queen's guards and jerk off on the thought about how glorious the past was.

The dude has kids.

>>18372661
If we were discussing contemporary literature I wouldn't care

>>18372663
He literally does not.

>>18372601
Ok I guess you know better than the guy who made the show

>>18372698
The books he cited as his inspiration got popular over night. So yes there is a strong link with philosophy, in fact screen writer is an ex academic . This show single handedly kicked Philosophical Pessimism towards mainstream audience.

>>18372709
We have the reason to see beyond bullshit. Anybody who likes the show got the basic understanding of Pessimism. It is also a same old tactic to publish most insane shit then saving your ass by claiming "it was meant as a warning".

>>18372765

>>18372832
Kek nice projection. I am not even white nor I am from west.

I simply choose to not suffer

>>18372877
based

>>18369533
I'm 6'2" and its not really great from up here either.

>>18372877
It's not really about I but collective universal suffering.

>>18372894
Then I will defeat suffering by befriending all of humanity.

>>18372561
That's why TD had such an ass-pulled ending, so to with SNK; Any property that invokes antinatalism cannot write their way out because a good refutation does not exist.

>>18372903
Good luck bro.

>>18372917
SNK?

>>18372931
Attack on Titan

suicide is for failed optimists, not pessimists

>>18369485
>Abloo bloo
Go back.

>>18369932
What drug is the most effective at reducing fear?

>>18373672
Country Time Lemonade, oddly enough.

>>18369305
The gods inflict suffering on us, therefore it is good. Our opinion of suffering has no bearing on its value to the cosmic order.

>>18372917
>Any property that invokes antinatalism cannot write their way out because a good refutation does not exist.
Life is good. Antinatalism refuted. The end.

>>18372894
I don’t give a fuck about some stranger’s suffering

>>18372612
Procreating is awesome. You’ll die alone and unhappy

>>18371593
Kill yourself, then

>>18371207
>Even with a god we’re still trapped in a world we didn't create
Who cares? The world is fun

>>18369932
>it genuinely isnt
Speak for yourself, loser. I think life is a great bit of fun and enjoyment, and the suffering involved is either worth it or itself valuable. Go shoot yourself

>>18373937
Finally a decent and clear answer

>>18374121
>Said the failed normalfag on 4chan

>>18369611

His Morality is simply that suffering is indefensibly bad.

>>18374121

And?

>>18374121
so you made a baby only to be not alone?

>>18369305
>Advanced sophistry

>>18369305
Natural suffering is fine. Most of the suffering we experience now is created by other more powerful humans. This book aims to psychologically assuage this second type of suffering, as talking, thinking, reading and debating about our suffering makes it a little more bearable. I think whether it convinces someone to not have any children is beside the point.

>>18376216
Retard of course not but it's a nice bonus

>>18376336
Selfish subhuman

>>18376358
Whatever, faggot. I just told you "to not be alone" is not the main reason.

>>18376419

Why would it be your first choice for an attempted rebuttal then?

>>18376427
Why else would you attempt to call me "selfish subhuman, faggot?
You think it's selfish to have kids because you resent your parents. You think people who have kids are subhuman while performing the most human duty in existance: procreation.
You're the subhuman, tranny faggot.

>>18376336
>nice bonus
lol, you speak like a normie retard

>>18376450

Duty to...?

>>18376475
Yourself.
Nice "rebuttal", faggot.
>>18376468
I'd rather be a normie retard than a depressed sperg crying about how life is bad.

>>18376486
>yourself

So it IS selfish then?

>>18376488
>word games
No, retard. It cannot be a duty to anything that doesn't exist yet. It is your duty to procreate in order to make the world a better place by creating ever better humans. If you're a good human being your children will thank you for bringing them into this world. It's not my fault your parents are shitty and you were traumatized.

>>18376501

You said that it is a duty to yourself: >>18376486

>>18376509
Yes? That doesn't mean it's selfish. Selfish would be to ignore your duty and pursue hedonism. I don't play word games, faggot. Are you jewish?

>>18376514

All things done for yourself are selfish by definition.

>>18376358
>>18376427
>>18376475
>>18376488
>>18376509
Assuming you are the same hobo that resides in all of these threads, do you do anything during your day besides refreshing this page to come up with some epic rebuttal? No wonder you think life is sad and meaningless if that's all you do.

>>18376519
No, selfish is something done purely for your own sake. Procreating is a duty. Fulfilling your most human duty to yourself is not selfish but human. Selfish would be to ignore your duty and pursue hedonism.
Are you jewish?

>>18376530

"Human" so not for your own sake? Are you...not human?

>>18376548
That doesn't make sense, faggot.
Are you jewish? I'm pretty sure you are, given the neuroticism and word games.

>>18376556

You've explicitly distinguished "for your own sake" from "human":>>18376530. I can only conclude that you are not human.

>>18376560
I didn't though. Read my words again. But you can conclude whatever you want, you'd still be wrong.
Are you jewish? I'm pretty sure you are, given the neuroticism and word games.

why do antinatalists appear only once a civilization has passed its peak

>>18376519
>>18376548
>>18376560
Hello? McFly? Answer me >>18376523

>>18376566

If "fulfilling your most human duty to yourself" is "human", as opposed to "selfish" which if "for your own sake" then it IS likewise selfish since you ARE human. Unless, of course, you are not?

>>18376579
Read this >>18376501
Fulfilling your most human duty is not for your own sake. It is a duty to yourself, not for yourself. That's a big difference, retard.
Now tell me, are you jewish?

>>18376588

What distinguishes "to" from "for"?

>>18376570

>>18376593
Have you ever heard of this magical device called a dictionary?

>>18376569
there are many examples, also in this thread, that refutes your belief

>>18376598

Which of these definition does your argument map onto?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/to#English
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/for#English

>to
>(expressing purpose) In order to.

>for
>Towards; in the direction of.

Yes? No?

>>18376612
>Which of these definition does your argument map onto?
>Yes? No?
That's not a yes/no question, retard.

>>18376618

What it is then?

>>18376606
outliers, of course
they increase exponentially in the way I said

>>18376618

What is it then?

>>18376623
WIth your exceptional jewish word prowess I'm sure you can deduce which dictionary definitions of to and for I was referring to given the context of the argument. You can't suddenly play dumb.

>>18376629

A duty "in order to" as opposed to a duty "in the direction of"? Which is one is "selfish" and which one is "human"?

>>18376636
Don't play dumb. I know you're very autistic but it's not binary. There are more possibilities than just those two. You've shown your exceptional jewish word games before, now it's time to put them to the test.

>>18376639

You agree then that "selfish" and "human" are not mutually exclusive?

>>18376644
Sure, theoretically. But a duty to yourself is not necessarily selfish, and in the case I explained isn't, whereas a duty for yourself by necessity is.
I'm going to make some babies now though, you should try it sometime, you will appreciate life more.

>>18376654

So what IS a duty "to" yourself?

>>18376662
Go make some babies and it will all become clear

>>18376666

Intellectual bankruptcy definitely will become clear.

>>18376667

>>18376671
>resorts to his native beastly cognition of images

Can't make this up.

>>18376676
Keep seething, faggot sperg

>>18376681
>me pots babby imag
>me crac nut wiht stoen goood

>>18376687
Yes? Fulfillment -> gotchas
Keep seething, faggot sperg

>>18376694

Why are you in an antinatalism thread then and a regular here, at that?

>>18369305
This might be true but people who genuinely think this way commit suicide and/or don't have children so they don't really matter in the long run do they

>>18374129
Didn’t say it’s not fun. Just that at a cosmic level it’s absurd

>>18374140
The fact you respond like this shows you're afraid of your pleasure bubble popping.

>>18376569
How would you know, faggot, you're in your 30s max.

>>18376624
>Greek God
>Teacher of the most notorious God
>outliers
Faggot.

>>18372048
Anything can be meaningful, suffering included, through it as an additional experience. Even negative feelings leave impacts, and some people can view all impacts on a person as positive, strange as it is. I assume that's what you mean, anyway, I don't think like that so I honestly can't relate either.

>>18378490
>Anything can be meaningful, suffering included
I agree, it's just that I can't understand how some particular suffering (like the absurd and the devastating ones) could be meaningful for someone. But it's just me.