/lit/ - Literature

I want to kick David Benatar in the nuts. Not because he's wrong, but because he's right.

>>18352073
truly the logical conclusion of the gay shit known as utilitarianism

>>18352073

>>18352073
>good
>pleasure
lol

>>18352073
Judging from the cover I can only assume that the author of this book is an Oregonian.

>>18352073
>he thinks he knows what 'the good' is
why have the pessimists never bothered to read nietzsche. They should also literally kill themselves

>>18353561
fucking kek

Jesus this guy Benatar is an insufferable faggot

>>18354750
south african...

>>18354805
No anon, that is definitely Eastern Oregon on the cover.

God, what a fucking shit hole.

Does negativity bias just hit Antinatalist niggas extra hard or something?

>>18352073
Jesus Christ what sophistry.
> doing good to good = good
> doing evil to good = evil
> doing good to evil = evil
> doing evil to evil = good
Simple as.

>>18354805
He explicitly stated to have visited Oregon and it contributed to the factors which made him produce the book

>>18354847
>Simple as
exactly the problem. you're not saying anything meaningful. there is no substance to your sophistry, ironic that you would use that word when your post is pretty much the peak of it. using a simple little chart to conclude what you want to conclude. nothing wrong with intellectual exercises if they are productive but this is boring and you are rigidly using to make dire conclusions about the real world.

>If you kill everyone, it would put an end to suffering

real edgelord hours

>>18354895
> and you are rigidly using to make dire conclusions about the real world.

> yes.jpg

>>18354847
lol nope, retard
>doing good is good
>doing evil is evil
That is all.

>>18354872
Kek, it would.

>>18354899
Anime was ahead of it's time.

>>18352073
cope for the fear of death.

>>18352073
Monkeybrain way to think about things. Good and bad are subjective ways to describe experience.
And since there's a lot more incentive to avoid bad things (that can kill you or harm you), they're going to be more plentiful.
Alternatively you could just engineer humans to make everything enjoyable, but then the race would die out in a few generations.

>>18353561
haha, what are the chances

>>18352073
>good is pleasure and bad is pain
All hedonists should be shot

>>18354820
Seemingly, yet somehow they don’t commit suicide. It doesn’t really matter anyway because natural selection doesn’t allow sick ideas like this to persist much.

>>18355341
>Alternatively you could just engineer humans to make everything enjoyable
Gross. The suffering in life is a good thing.

>>18355662
It does though. Ugly niggas who are unlikely to produce children who will lead good lives tend to get cockblocked
>>18352073
He’s right but that doesn’t justify antinatalism on the whole; with improved genetic screening in the future we’ll be able to prevent the birth of unfortunate people

>>18355687
>He’s right
Prove it.

>>18353546
>implying it isn't pic related

>>18352073
I think it's that the "good" is when there's no offset of desire and reality, i.e., when wants are not met, disappointment and the "bad" follow. In death, there is no desire so there is no disappointment, which is closer to "good" than "bad". Seeing how true fulfillment is a rarity, this "fulfillment" may be achieved at death in the sense there's nothing to fill.

>>18355668
>The suffering in life is a good thing
Why does people always generalize? Someone would suffer if they raped and killed his family. The killer would get away without ever been found. You say it would be good. Care to explain why? Because the guy supposedly would feel the need to improve himself, to get "stronger"? Maybe someone else would be so devastated to kill himself in return. He wouldn't prove himself to be worthy of this world?

>>18355662

It is, in fact, a truly perennial idea.

>>18355668

Me crushing each one of your phalanges with a pair of pliers = a good thing?

>>18352073
I'm perplexed by this also, can anyone in this thread explain clearly, what the fuck Benatar means by this?

>>18355719
I like this comic because it shows utilitarianism is wrong. That is the utilitarian utopia right there and yet the reaction to it for most people will be a feeling of disgust.The value of life cannot be boiled down to mere happiness or pleasure and this comic brings that intuition into the spotlight by showing that this "utopia" is missing something important, the vitality of life.

>>18355719
won't their dopamine receptors burn out or something

>>18356629
They're kept alive til the sun burns out so presumably they can prevent the receptors from becoming acclimated to the dopamine

>>18352073
Watch him ass rape Sam Harris in the debate they had.

>>18355719
I'd honestly take this over my current life, it seems much better.

>>18356769
Sam Harris doesn't have the tools to beat Benatar because Harris' views lead to the exact same place he just won't admit it. Only a Platonist can defeat Benatar by showing how his entire worldview is wrong from its more fundamental assumptions about how reality works.

>>18356636
how can they keep the pleasure flowing without burning out the dopamine receptors?

>>18356849
It's set in a future where flying cat droids hand out pills to timetravelling adventurers, and you are concerned about that?

>>18352073
I love this book, i actually do, not because i think it's right, but because it so thoroughly indirectly refutes everything that the slave moralists like nu-leftists stand for (eliminating suffering and adversity at all costs), by showing the logical conclusion of it (ending life); And even if they try to weasel their way out by going "oh, but happiness, convenience and pleasure are the endgoal, not just ending suffering/adversity" then i BTFO them with variations of the Pleasure/Experience Machine and Utility Monster arguments like >>18355719 and pic related by showing how most people reject a world of maximum pleasure, happiness and convenience if it gets rid of their humanity, presumptuous assholes have no response except stubbornly re-state their premise in blind arrogance.

>>18356889
nigga it's a video game

>>18352073
https://wmpeople.wm.edu/asset/index/cvance/benatar
This is addressed in the first 2 pages.

The absense of pain and pleasure are asymmetric by our own intuition, for example consider the thought experiment
>There are no aliens having children on Mars to experience the joys of life. Does that make you sad, empathetic, or grief-stricken? The answer is probably no. No one intuitively seems to care whether "no one" is enjoying life. In fact a whole planet of no people enjoying life doesn't seem to bother us at all. That doesn't seem a moral obligation (that people must be born/exist to enjoy life).

>If there were Martians having children on Mars and you knew they were suffering greatly, would that make you sad, empathetic, or feel bad in some way? It probably would to some degree.

>There seems to be a difference in how we perceive "pleasure not happening" vs. "pain not happening" in the absence of an actual person. This leads to different conclusions for obligations to bring pleasure and prevent pain in the scenario when a parent has the potential to procreate and can prevent it.

>>18357121
I'm not familiar with Benatar, but with what the thread has provided, this excerpt reads like neoFreudian drivel. Existence is preclusionary...the capacity for production produces the demand for the product, yes?

>>18357121
>>No one intuitively seems to care whether "no one" is enjoying life

>>18357234
You are associating the aborted life with something that existed (the fetus) whereas the argument is on something that hasn't existed, so the baby that could have been born if you had sex with that woman 9 months ago but didn't because you're an Incel virgin

>>18352073
only faggot writers would waste their time complaining about why they were born
BAWWWWWWWWW I WISH I NEVER EXISTED while actual human beings walk around, pay bills, work, fuck, socialize and enjoy life for what it is

>>18357121
again completely fallacious reasoning and just pure linguistic trickery with no substance behind it.

in your argument he is saying:
no happy martian babies = not bad (FOR US)
suffering martian babies = bad (FOR US)

but in the OP he is saying:
no happy humans = not bad (FOR ???)
no suffering humans = bad (FOR ???)

>>18357330
the problem is that its impossible to determine good or bad in the scenario without humans

>>18357330
Yes we are using our human mind to judge what is intuitively good and bad. Why does it matter that we cannot make this judgement if we don't exist? We do exist right now and we can argue that non existence is better than existence.

>>18357374
Your ability to argue for the negation of existence undermines the argument for negation.

>>18356789
Then Benatar doesn't have tools to beat a Platonist, only a Schopenhauerian can defeat a Platonist.

>>18357374
because he is saying THE LACK OF EXPERIENCE is GOOD which doesn't make any fucking sense because the idea of something being GOOD is predicated on there being subjects who are EXPERIENCING

>>18357374
there is no non-existence. babies from fake hypothetical scenarios where your parents fucked someone else and had a different child don't actually exist in a 'non-existence' box somewhere else. they are literally nothing except a hypothetical in your mind. anything that is 'non-existent' is a hypothetical in your mind. things can't be better or worse or anything for them without you existing, they are predicated on your own existence.

>>18357432

Not at all, experience itself is predicated on a mixture of Evil and Good, making any Moral arguments impossible, the only meaningful way of discussing and fulfilling the Good, never mind of closing the gap between experiencing it and being it, is the destruction of experience.

>>18357484
what is evil and good without human beings? how can human beings be predicated on their own linguistic concepts?

>>18357419
No it does not
>>18357432
>something being GOOD is predicated on there being subjects who are EXPERIENCING
Yes, and we are experiencing life anon, and we can therefore judge whether it is good or not.
You seem to be ignoring the argument and jumping to conclusion of everyone being dead and then retroactively refuting the argument because no one can make it anymore. Dude if everyone was dead you couldn't make any argument at all. Knowledge/values wouldn't exist. This doesn't refute Benatar anymore than it refutes anything else.

>>18357439
I take no issue with that.
Pic related.

>>18357617
he is judging whether the absence of life is good or not in this passage >>18352073, not whether life is good or not.

>>18356527
I presume the solution would then be wondrous virtual realities modelled on the most fulfilling human lives

If you keep looking for biological truths you'll eventually realize that life is a parasitic self-replicating mechanism that serves no higher purpose. That sentient beings acquired pain receptors to motivate them to survive and reproduce. Once these two truths are accepted, you'll come to the conclusion that there's no positive value in life since every feeling of happiness is a mere fulfillment of wants/needs that exist to fulfill purposeless imperatives: survival and DNA replication. The dark pill to swallow comes when you realize that life is not merely non-positive but actually net negative once it causes suffering in sentient beings possessing pain receptors. You'll get to know the fact that we can't heal the wounds of existence.

You'll know that all human cultural creations are delusions that helped some homo sapiens tribes to gather efficiently and genocide/control other tribes and survive and reproduce, but that once the industrial revolution began, human beings started to have less and less need for such delusions. Thus the end of religion, nations, family unit. You'll realize that the consequence of this is that we're currently in a behavioral sink that creates a lot of misery through atomization in an inherently social species. You'll come to the conclusion that this reality is a dark manifestation of the worst of what life can create and that the only solution is efilism.

I'm glad to exist, as do many others, so anti-natalism is self-evidently flawed.

That said very few people arrive at a philosophy or logical conclusion entirely separate from their emotions. As Hume remarked, reason is the slave of passion. It's overwhelmingly obvious that anti-natalism would gain the most traction amongst depressives and those who can't realistically have children. In order to assuage their condition I support euthanasia and 'going away parties' for those who want to die. Though I'd prefer we explore psychedelic therapy so people can appreciate life while they have it.

>>18357681
Or, just kill yourself bro

>>18357725
>Or, just kill yourself bro

>>18352073
>wah wah i was born
so kill yourself

>>18357681
>that serves no higher purpose
what is "higher purpose"...?
>no positive value in life since every feeling of happiness is a mere fulfillment of wants/needs
how does that negate value...?

>>18357667
Not him but yes, you are correct, though you'd have to keep away the knowledge of it being virtual from the people experiencing it.

>>18357617
how could you ever judge cake if its the only thing you have ever eaten? with no point of comparison, how can a judgment on existence be made?

>>18357733
Unironically. If life isn't worth living, kill yourself.

>>18357718
Anti-natalists are all talk no walk. They only exist to push open borders propaganda, child sex trade rings, and their "DONT HAVE KIDDOS!!!" bullshit while they roast away into their mid 40s and have "muh fur family!!!" cringe.

>>18357766
/thread
until one experiences non-existence, or at the very least whatever the alternative is to our current conscious reality of existence, then theres really no point of comparison or model. All values are suppositions, therefore there's not really any point in trying to force this dialogue. Anti-natalists are just cringe trannies on HRT.

>>18357764
Maybe, to achieve maximal satisfaction. Though people already experience a great deal of pleasure from virtual worlds, video games, MMOs, etc.

>>18357775
>child sex trade rings
Didn't know anti-natalists were this based

>>18357782
They only talk about it though and rarely act on it. If an anti-natalists walked into a shopping mall raping children and shooting everyone until they were gunned down, I'd have more respect for them. But they don't live by what they preach.

>>18352073
If the absence of bad things is a good thing, then the absence of this good thing is bad only if there is someone who is deprived of it. Meaning the absence of bad things is only a good thing to those who who have the presence of bad things.

>60+ million abortions in the US alone since Roe v. Wade
>Virtually all civilized peoples now below the replacement rate in reproduction
Reminder that antinatalism is winning and there's nothing you can do about it.

>>18357681
I agree

>>18357788
I do not think humans will ever go extinct by refusing to breed, though there certainly will be a considerable population decline in the future.

>>18357788
>Reminder that antinatalism is winning and there's nothing you can do about it.
>winning
There's nothing to win. We just see a bunch of single "fur family" 40+ year old losers screeching about "muh open borders and diversity!!!" while trying to convince people that having kids of their own is bad. The people who are having families will inherit the earth, and you can be sure my children will grow to insta-gib people like you.

>>18357797
Humans won't, but the superior races will. They're the only one's whose happiness I care about. The future will be a primitive, monkey planet and all civilization will sink back into the mud from whence it came.

>>18357797
>population decline
based on what model? this is the most amount of humans that have ever existed in human history. we aren't really "in decline" now are we? I don't know why people promote endless growth for the sake of growth. I don't want my children to grow up in overcrowded dumpster cities like some oriental slum. So I encourage anti-natalists to remove themselves from the gene pool as quick as possible. It's only shame anti-natalists are usually tremendous cowards and don't try to do something like set off nuclear explosions in overpopulated african countries ors omething.

>>18357788
>Population at an all time high
>Projected to keep going up over the century

>>18357814
>It's only shame anti-natalists are usually tremendous cowards and don't try to do something
You've been duped into murdering tens of millions of your own children in the womb lol.
>>18357820
The population of whom exactly? Worthless shitskins.

>>18357814
Pretty much all population growth predictions state that humans will reach their peak this century and that after that population numbers will start to decrease.

Depends on the area though, for example African population is expected to keep growing all the way through the century, unlike European population.

>>18357826
>You've been duped into murdering tens of millions of your own children in the womb lol.
>You
I haven't.

>>18357826
It's really all gonna be niggers and other shitskins in the future.

>>18357835
Your race has. Enjoy your nigger planet, though.

>>18357836
I don't care about them, but I do feel bad for animals. They'll continue existing, and mud people will continue torturing them. It's a shame but there's nothing that can be done about it.

>>18357828
>will start to decrease
lol
>>18357837
People like you won't reproduce but people like me already have. lol. You don't need a billion people. The British, the Mongols, and many others subdued the entire population of Han China with relative handfuls compared to the swarms of Han Chinese available. You're illiterate.

>>18357865
So uh, raise a family and teach them strong system of values and personal responsibility and spirit of freedom and go out swinging rather than weeping and proverbially cucking yourself because "LIFE BAD BECAUSE"

>>18352073
>The absence of bad things, such as pain, is good even if there is nobody to enjoy that good, whereas the absence of good things, such as pleasure, is bad only if there is somebody who is deprived of these good things.
I'm a brainlet, can someone explain to me why the absence of the bad is somehow "good," without a person present to experience it as much, yet the absence of the good is only bad with a person present?

>>18357877
Okay, enjoy your wonderful life as a minority among blacks. I'm sure it will be fascinating.
>>18357883
I have the sense not to bring any children into the place this world is turning into, so no.

>>18357894
Holy cope man. Europeans were always a relative "minority" in world population, but successfully subdued foreign threats. People like you are the majority now, weak, subversive, worship open borders and diversity, but you aren't reproducing. Statistics are showing that leftists like you are not reproducing. The future of europeans are going to be fit as fuck (already happening) and ready for war (also already happening). Going to be hilarious when you're some burnt out 70 year old male roastie getting dragged out by blonde fit youths to the chopping block

>>18357902
>Europeans were always a relative "minority" in world population, but successfully subdued foreign threats.
Said threats aren't foreign anymore, which is the problem.
>People like you are the majority now, weak, subversive, worship open borders and diversity, but you aren't reproducing.
I'm not sure how you could read anything I've written and think that I support open borders or diversity.

>>18357617
Mate...what the fuck are you on about? This is ridiculously stupid - existence is an implicit predicate (see Kant on Ontology), i.e. prima facie for normative ethics. Benatar's own colleagues recognized the insufficiencies of the proposed asymmetry.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276899530_Hooray_for_babies

>>18357919
>I'm not sure how you could read anything I've written and think that I support open borders or diversity.
Your grotesque celebration of the fact that we have a hard time currently makes you an enemy.

>>18357953
>currently
It's over, anon.

>>18357965
Far from it.

>>18357770
grant me the right to die and I’ll do it, otherwise I’ll much rather not suffer in the process of my suicide

>>18357970
Natalists are quick to tell people to commit suicide, but they want to make sure it's as difficult as possible to do so.

>>18357970
Why not end everyone else's suffering? Drop a toaster in your tub of tears and make the world a better place.

>>18357979
I would much rather take out a gun and empty it unto the nearest gathering of crowds hoping I hit you and rid the world of your existence, before toasting myself with the last round save for me.

>>18357543

Experience is Evil AND Good. Experience without people is Evil, people without experience are Good.

>>18357718

Does this not go against the very natalist dogma, that what you enjoy is not good and the purpose of life is to subject yourself to what do not enjoy?

>>18357970
>i need to ask permission to die
kek, the absolute fucking state of anti-natalists
hahahahahahahahaha

>>18358116
right to die = assisted suicide

>>18358134
>i need daddy to kill me because i cant do it myself
this thread only proved anti-natalists are nothing but cheap talk.

>>18357970
Your problem is that you lack initiative. If you can't figure out how to kill yourself that displays your inherent stupidity and ineffectuality, which is probably why you ended up an anti-natalist. That said I support euthanasia, though I think what you really need is a completely different lifestyle so you're not spending your time being an extremely online depressive.

>>18358067
I don't give a shit about some false binary between dogmas. Life is worth living and if I didn't think so I would end it. Maybe your life sucks, but your anti-natalism is probably more a function of memes and brain structure. There are billions of third worlders living in much worse conditions yet they keep on struggling to improve their lot in life. I find that far more admirable than some self-hating pseud trying to cook up reasons for self-extinction.

>>18356629
>>18356849
You can induce pleasure via electrical currents without use of the dopamine receptors. In the 50s and 60s they hooked up electrodes to rat's pleasure centers. The rats would press a button 10 times a second for days on end until they died of starvation or the electrodes were removed, with no signs of tolerence.
>>18358360
Not an anti-natalist, just wish I could figure out how those people enjoy life and why I don't.

>>18352073
Based Benatar.

>>18358360
>Life is worth living

Why?

>>18358525
>life is not worth living
Why?

>>18358531

Because of suffering.

>>18358411
>The rats would press a button 10 times a second for days on end until they died of starvation or the electrodes were removed
I'd do the same to be honest.

>>18356527
How do you know it isn't the people disgusted by it who are wrong, rather than the utilitarians? This is a classic case of scope insensitivity. If this were actually technologically feasible, you're willing to give up billions of years of pleasure just to avoid a tiny, tiny amount of disgust now.

>>18358694
The issue is deontological. The social conditioning demands a degree of individuation that would otherwise be inhibited, hence the disgust.

>>18358648
Of course, I can't find the articles but they did the same to try and cure homosexuality ie. show gay person straight porn while giving them the pleasure button. Don't know if their sexuality changed but they had to take it away after a few days because they rubbed the skin off their index fingers. Just imagine if it didn't require the button and was a constant stimuli, you would spend the rest of your medically-assisted life in unbelievable ecstasy, with no increasing tolerance.

>>18357121
The reason is because we can empathize with pain but we can't empathize with not existing.

>>18358411
>just wish I could figure out how those people enjoy life and why I don't.
Given that you are exercising, eating right, trying to socialise, looking for/creating meaning, etc first, look into therapy and antidepressants anon. And yh I mean the second one, despite what 4chan likes to think.

People predisposed to depression have a harder time. If pleasure is predicated on the structure of an organ that varies, so will propensity vary.

>>18353561
>Early life and education
Benatar is the son of SOLOMON [emphasis mine] Benatar, a global-health expert who founded the Bioethics Centre at the University of Cape Town. Not much is known about Benatar's personal life as he deliberately guards his privacy. He has held antinatalist views since his childhood.[2]

>Academic career
[...] He is a member of the editorial board of the Journal of Controversial Ideas.[4]
>Journal of Controversial Ideas
Huh sounds cool, let's check it out. I'm sure it delivers really cutting edge social commentary that would normally be suppressed by mainstream opinion outlets.

>The Journal of Controversial Ideas is a cross-disciplinary, peer-reviewed academic journal that aims to allow academics to publish using pseudonyms if they request it.[1][2] Established in 2018 by philosophers Francesca Minerva, Jeff McMahan, and Peter Singer, the journal began accepting submissions on 20 April 2020.[3] According to McMahan, the journal is needed because of the fear among academics about publishing articles that support certain contentious positions.[4] Minerva came up with the idea after experiencing death threats and difficulty finding employment because of an article she wrote on the ethics of newborn infanticide.[2]
>Peter Singer
Not looking good so far. But let's evaluate it ourselves instead of being prejudiced against academics like Peter Singer and David Benatar which may have a certain something in common...

>https://journalofcontroversialideas.org/
>Welcome to the website of the Journal of Controversial Ideas, the first open access, peer-reviewed, interdisciplinary journal specifically created to promote free inquiry on controversial topics.
>The Journal of Controversial Ideas offers a forum for careful, rigorous, unpolemical discussion of issues that are widely considered controversial, in the sense that certain views about them might be regarded by many people as morally, socially, or ideologically objectionable or offensive.
So they publish articles which might explore or promote ideas considered anathema in the curated public discourse, or ideas which run counter to the prevailing social narratives promoted by powerful corporations and governments.

>Recent publications
>Deflating Byrne’s “Are Women Adult Human Females?”
Oh dear. Let's read the abstract at least before we jump to conclusions.

>The primary aim of this paper is to show that Alex Byrne’s arguments in “Are Women Adult Human Females?” provide no reason to doubt the truth of the proposition that trans women are women. Byrne’s conclusion is that women are adult human females. However, it is safe to say that much of the interest in his article is driven by the assumption that it is a short step from that conclusion to the further conclusion that trans women are not women.
Troons are pretty fucking mainstream now. I think it would be more controversial to say that trans women are NOT women, and that the phrase "trans women" is total nonsense.

>>18354808
Fuck you, city slicker. If you don't like it, fuck off.

>>18359105
I can't exercise and eat right at the moment because if medical issues, but even when I was healthy, exercising, socializing, having productive hobbies etc I would still fantasize about walking into traffic and have days where I felt like shit. Eventually realized I've been like that for as long as I can remember. I am growing warmer to the idea of therapy but I still hate the idea of antidepressants, it just feels like such a cop out. Not to mention my depression can be a great motivator at times, I've had it for so long I can't really imagine what "normal" people feel like.

>>18359174
>I can't exercise and eat right at the moment because if medical issues
bros my doctor says I have to keep drinking 2 liters of coke every day it's not my fault

>>18359182
I'm not a fatty, I'm medically underweight because I've developed chronic abdominal pain and I can barely keep down 1500 calories a day. I used to eat that same amount in a meal when I was lifting and biking +5 miles a day.

>>18357330
Easy reply - for the antinatalist. Antinatalists hate humans so they like imagining them extinct. If Benatar didn't like experience, he would have long since an heroed. But he hates humans, thus rationalizes his imaginary experience of no humans except him doing the imagination.

>>18353561
I'm fairly left leaning but I love this fucking meme

>>18352073
>The absence of bad things, such as pain, is good even if there is nobody to enjoy that good, whereas the absence of good things, such as pleasure, is bad only if there is somebody who is deprived of these good things.
Why

>>18359174
>cop out
Life contains suffering whether depressed or not and whether on antidepressants or not. If you were ideating within a good environment, therapy and/or AD's could be the best choice. ADs can make the extreme days fewer and improve your motivation, but you might need to try different types. I hope you try out therapy though, it's worth it.

>>18359299
Just keep doing whatever works. You can focus more on diet when you are better. When you get back to exercise, don't push yourself too hard.

Rooting for you anon.

>>18359174
You had your B vitamin levels checked?

>>18359182
I'm unironically like this and don't care anymore.

>>18359110
Based resoocher.

>>18359486
Surprisingly not, given I've had blood drawn maybe 15 times in the past year. Pretty sure it's a result of an antibiotic I was on last time since I have a low amount of an immunogloblin associated with intestinal bacteria. Trying to restore my intestinal microbiome via probiotics but with little to no benefit. What would a Vitamin B deficiency cause?

>>18359577
https://www.healthline.com/health/symptoms-of-vitamin-b-deficiency#vitamin-b-3
It took doctors years to figure out I had pernicious anaemia (chronic b12 deficiency).

Someone like me shouldn't breed but its made easy by it being completely impossible. We're all eugenicists here right?

>>18358570
For only you though. Not everyone shares this viewpoint.

>>18356849
They can't. Pain and a lull from pleasure is the thing that naturally does that. The only way for what was shown to work would be to create a reality they can play in that has those things, ironically, this makes the point moot.

>>18358411
>Not an anti-natalist, just wish I could figure out how those people enjoy life and why I don't.
They simply don't all do. Even among "the poor" there are hundreds of divisions of exploitation. People engage in murder, theft, drug trafficking, etc. on a regular basis, many are career criminals from an early age. Many spend almost their entire waking hours in labor just for the hope, not a guarantee, that one of their many children might be able to escape while the majority of their labor is exploited and taken from them by someone above them. They have many children because of high infant mortality rates and they need lots of hands on deck all working from a young age just to sustain a family unit and a home. This is of course only talking about the ones with the privilege to actually build wealth, it's easy to turn a blind eye to tent cities and slums ridden with homeless and people who really have no real agency to change their lives at all and just not include that massive segment of the population on your statistics.

Even if they report they were happy, let's say you died today and had a chance to be reborn in a slum in Rio or Vietnam, or to simply pass on into eternal sleep. Would you actually take the chance to live there knowing the dozens of different things happening on a regular basis that might rob you of a productive life before you were even old enough to vote? Or would you just check out? How good do the odds need to be before you would roll?

>>18360230
No, read my post here >>18358411 and >>18358762 . Chemical stimuli builds tolerance, electronic stimuli doesn't.
> Satiation experiments in rats have revealed that BSR does not produce satiety. Olds demonstrated that this lack of satiation associated with BSR allows animals to self-stimulate to sheer exhaustion and that satiation is dependent on the location of the electrical stimulation.[14] In a 48-hour satiation test, rats with hypothalamic electrodes self-stimulated to exhaustion and showed no intrinsic satiation tendencies, whereas telencephalic electrodes showed radical slowing of self-stimulation after 4 to 8 hours. The insatiability of BSR is closely related to the strength of drive. While a natural reward, like food, is met with a feeling of being full (satiety), BSR does not have a comparable correlate. This allows for BSR to be experienced indefinitely, or in the case of ICSS, until exhaustion.
> BSR is hypothesized to be so effective in establishing compulsive habits due to its more direct activation of the reward pathway, bypassing transmission through sensory pathways in response to natural rewards.

>>18353561
fucking kek'd I recognize myself so much in this

>>18353561
>Benatar is the son of Solomon Benatar
>Solomon

OYYYYY VEYYYYYYYY

>>18357681
> every feeling of happiness is a mere fulfillment of wants/needs that exist to fulfill purposeless imperatives
And every feeling of suffering isn't just the opposite of that. You make it out like it's this cosmic evil but scientifically it's no different than what you reduce happiness to.

> all human cultural creations are delusions
What about the true ones? Or the ones you're engaging in right now, like moral value?

> this reality is a dark manifestation of the worst of what life can create
Implying that we couldn't fix all of those if we were actually trying to build a world fit for human beings, and not one of mindless production and atomisation and consumption just so a few billionaires can see the numbers on their bank accounts go up.

>>18356896
>I love this book, i actually do, not because i think it's right, but because it so thoroughly indirectly refutes everything that the slave moralists like nu-leftists stand for (eliminating suffering and adversity at all costs), by showing the logical conclusion of it (ending life)
There are people like Inmendham/Gary Mosher who unironically support ending all life though. Google EFILism.

>And even if they try to weasel their way out by going "oh, but happiness, convenience and pleasure are the endgoal, not just ending suffering/adversity" then i BTFO them with variations of the Pleasure/Experience Machine and Utility Monster arguments
What's wrong with the utility monsters though? Most of the arguments against them seem to boil down to "THAT'S YUCKY EW EW EW" and not much else. Personally, I would much rather take something like your comic or >>18355719
than continue existing in my current form. I couldn't care less about my "humanity" or anything like that.

>>18358525
Life can be an end in itself, and it is something so strange to just exist you might as well appreciate it.

>>18359174
>I've had it for so long I can't really imagine what "normal" people feel like.
This was me a few years ago. The difference is like night and day, all your coping mechanisms that you thought were your personality just evaporate and you feel an intense anger towards your old self that refused to seek help for so long.

why do you people try so hard to convince me to stop living

fuck off and kill yourself already and stop posting these garbage threads

we get it, life sucks and you're so enlightened, nobody else has ever come to this conclusion

>>18362511
Then stop replying and hide the thread you dumb subhuman. Since you're already here it's doubtful that will ever have kids.

>>18362528

antinatalists must be told how stupid they are until they're finally forced to fulfill their greatest wish to kill themselves

>>18362559
You agree with them that suicide is preferable then you should also kill yourself.

>>18362587

i agree it's preferable for antinatalists

go ahead and make us both happy so there's more room for my kids

>>18362596
If it's preferable for them then you should keep your nose out of their matters. No one is asking you to be a part of this debate you dumb fucking redditor.
>go ahead and make us both happy so there's more room for my kids
>Suicides make me and my kids happy
Damn, I am flattered by your love for humanity.

>>18362612

>you should keep your nose out of the matters of people who want to end humanity

lmao

>No one is asking you to be a part of this debate you dumb fucking redditor.

see above, my existence is my business

>Damn, I am flattered by your love for humanity.

you're damn right the death of my enemies and the enemies of all life on earth makes me very happy

>>18362625
>War mongers and pro violence subhumans aren't my enemies but some niche autists in asshole of the internet with a philosophical book are
Kek
Nobody is forcing you to be part of the debate fucking subhuman. Just hide the thread and stop replying.

>"Since 1968 he has been married to Renata Singer; they have three children: Ruth, Marion, and Esther. Renata Singer is a novelist and author and she also has collaborated on publications with her husband."

>>18362633
>Posting the personal life description of Peter Singer
You faggots have worms in your brain.

>>18362631

hot damn it's fun arguing with illiterates. in what way could you even imagine i don't include those groups in the same category as "my enemies"?

>Nobody is forcing you to be part of the debate fucking subhuman. Just hide the thread and stop replying.

i just like you that much, anon. wanna suck my dick?

>>18362640
David Benatar is Peter Singer's pen name.

>>18362644
You will never be a father.

>>18362645
Kek, cope harder retard.

>>18362650

>You will never be a father.

Indeed. I will be a Patriarch. Tales will be told of your seething.

>>18362653
Tell me why there are no photos of Pat Benatar on the internet then, and when you google him photos of Peter Singer come up?

>>18362659
You will never be a father.

>>18362660
Because he gets death treats and want to protect his anonymity. An anon from south Africa said that he took a course on ethics from him.

>>18362673
Nice excuse, totally made up. First, getting death threats on the internet is not a cause for concern. The death threats (which by the way don't exist) would most likely be coming from a 12 year old edge lord on 4chan. Second, he is a philosopher at a well-known university. If someone wanted to kill him they could very easily find him. A photo does not protect his anonymiyty

>>18362673
>protect his anonymity
LMAO

>>18362700
What the fuck you are talking about retard? Peter Singer talked shit about antinatalist movement many times. You can hear Benatar's debates with Sam Harris and Jordaan Peterson on YouTube and then match his voice with Singer.

>>18362706
Okay so how does it proves that he is Peter Singer?

>>18362707
>What the fuck you are talking about retard?
Wondering the same about your post you illiterate fuck

>>18362713
(You)

>>18362711
Who the fuck is talking about Peter Singer ya mong. Jesus you Jordan Peterson fangirls are all very slow.

>>18362720
>>18362633
>>18362645

>>18362722
Do you think that every post with the name "Anonymous" is the same person?

>>18362726
You joined the same reply chain of two different anons. So ask yourself.

>>18362733
My point is that Benatar is lying about something. Why is hiding from the public? "Death threats" is an excuse that only a moron would buy, especially since his contact details are publicly available on his website.

>>18362751
It think by creating mystique around your personality is a good move. He also wrote a book called "The Second Sexism: Discrimination Against Men and Boys". So definitively a weird personality.

As a pessimist I don't care about him or his book desu because there is nothing new in it. There were antinatalists in ancient Greece who made the same arguments that he is making now.

>>18357286
>while actual human beings walk around, pay bills, work, fuck, socialize and enjoy life for what it is

Only intellectuals with the need for thinking can sensationalize existence and thus transcend the apparent. Most retards will trivilize it in lack of capacity for deep thinking