/lit/ - Literature

>>18350010
It's shit.

>>18350015
my impression was that its a good reflection on the violence prominent during the "wild west" times
>It's shit
how so? elaborate!

>>18350021
If it is a good reflection of the violence of the times why did he have to exaggerate so much?

>>18350010
Gay bullshit aimed at sadistic cunts who have never experienced war. After that experience you will find no words to describe that experience. Every word is a disgusting reduction.

I read the Judge as being violence and willpower incarnate, and perhaps an actual demon sent to a vulnerable part of history to encourage that aspect of humanity

>>18350030
Why do military people have such a resentment towards the people they supposedly went to war to protect? This seems to be an exclusively American thing in terms of veterans, and every veteran I’ve met has a total disgust for everyone not enlisted.

Can you enlighten me as to why?

>>18350030
Biggest pseud on the board right now.

>>18350028
what makes you think that what he describes in an exaggeration?
there certainly was a lot of violence during these times and in a lawless environment the twisted can live out their sadistic drive to the fullest.

does not seem to be very absurd to me.
the judge is very much the incarnate of "might makes right", a principle that is very much applicable to the reality of the "wild west" or during war times.

>>18350010
>in which parts do you see this reflected?
Not in this book. Maybe you can say for the long run on sentences.

>>18350028
Read this. It's pretty historically accurate, violence included.

>>18350030
>Gay bullshit
because of the gay rape scenes?
i think the fact that the judge is raping males highlights how little rape is about sex but an expression of power and degradation.
he is imposing his will on others due to his physical prowess, this is the core while him technically having sex with a guy (gay) is a sideshow that seems irrelevant when considering his motivation.

>>18350010
Yeah its pretty good so far, only have a few pages left
And I guess the Faulkner it's reflected in the lack of punctuation (Take in note I haven't read much Faulkner so there must be something else)

>>18350044
He is an edgy LARPer. He knows shit about veterans and the war experience.

>>18350046
>>18350072
While things like that happened it was not single groups going on a non-stop rampage for months straight, it was isolated cases spread out over years and decades. Learn your history.

>>18350101
Read the book. He followed Glanton gang's actual trail through the region and the absurd levels of violence was common at the frontier just after the civil war. There are many accounts of them beyond just Chamberlain's memoir. You are just shooting in the dark.

>>18350110
>Read the book
I have.

>>18350114
The Notes.

>>18350101
Do you know about the Mexican-American Civil war? It was far bloodier than anything in Blood meridian which is set just 3 years after the end of it in the same territory. How can you say it is exaggerated when far worse things have happened for real?

>>18350148
To add to your point, here’s a photo of what happened in blood meridian. Scalped Indians brutalized to death en masse

>>18350044
>>18350045
>>18350075
>>18350095

There is a greater war
And many would wish to see

There is a greater war
Than most would care to contemplate

There is a greater war

Those who have tried to tell of the war
Has always found their words turned into nonsense
Those who have tried to tell of the war
Has always found their memories, lost or transformed
Into doctrines and philosophies
They never intended
Or possibly their bodies and minds as they conceive such things
Lost forever in the war
That few would wish to see, and most do not dare to contemplate

There is a greater war

Perhaps in their final moments they may realize
Or be shown, that they were, after all
Only unknowing players in a nameless
endless game

Only unknowing players

And after these souls have been thrown screaming into oblivion
No voice remains to tell the score
Save the howling voice of the war

There is a greater war
There is a greater war

No voice remains
No voice remains
No voice remains

You see Faulkner more in his earlier works - Orchard Keeper, Outer Dark, Suttree, Child of God. Blood Meridian is where he starts to sound more like himself and he doesn’t really veer back to that Southern Gothic/Faulknerian vibe again.

>>18350156
This poem is 100% written by some beta faggot victorian romanticizing CHADness.

>>18350117
Yes, I read it, but I also read other sources.

>>18350148
Wars tend to be bloody. Blood Meridian is not about a war.

>>18350153
I never said it did not happen, in fact I strongly implied it did.

Why are Blood Meridian fans so defensive and assume having greater knowledge than all others? More importantly, why do I still bother attempting to engage in conversation with Blood Meridian fans? Think I will remedy that one now.

>>18350173
>Why are Blood Meridian fans so defensive and assume having greater knowledge than all others? More importantly, why do I still bother attempting to engage in conversation with Blood Meridian fans?
What? You have a chip on your shoulder. Sharing what we know is being defensive now? Give me a single evidence on how the book's violence is exaggerated and unrealistic. So far you have said nothing but "learn your history".

>>18350173
Share your sources then. There is enough evidence to prove that the violence is not exaggerated.

Just learned that Holden was a real person? This is crazy

In Samuel Chamberlain's autobiographical My Confession, he describes Holden:

"The second in command, now left in charge of the camp, was a man of gigantic size who rejoiced in the name of Holden, called Judge Holden of Texas. Who or what he was no one knew, but a more cooler-blooded villain never went unhung. He stood six foot six in his moccasins, had a large, fleshy frame, a dull, tallow-colored face destitute of hair and all expression, always cool and collected. But when a quarrel took place and blood shed, his hog-like eyes would gleam with a sullen ferocity worthy of the countenance of a fiend… Terrible stories were circulated in camp of horrid crimes committed by him when bearing another name in the Cherokee nation in Texas. And before we left Fronteras, a little girl of ten years was found in the chaparral foully violated and murdered. The mark of a huge hand on her little throat pointed out him as the ravisher as no other man had such a hand. But though all suspected, no one charged him with the crime. He was by far the best educated man in northern Mexico."

>>18350192
>>18350210
Try the bibliography in Notes On Blood Meridian.

>>18350266
So the book that attests the extreme violence in BM has a bibliography that actually contradicts it? Doesn't sound right desu. Recommend one of them.

>>18350283
Companions as a rule stretch the truth the same way as the novel they are about, it is just good business sense. Do you swallow everything with a citation as fact? You should be a more critical reader. And again, I never said the extreme violence did not happen, I plainly was talking about the frequency of the severe cases, aka the massacres.

If you actually read Notes On Blood Meridian you should be able to get the pertinent sources from the bibliography with no effort, there are only a few which would directly apply here. I am going to skip answering this directly since you insist on making out that I said extreme violence did not exist, only seems fair that I get to play the same games.

>>18350351
>I plainly was talking about the frequency of the severe cases, aka the massacres.
Give one evidence for this instead of just spouting bullshit that it couldn't be this way. I will play by your game of obnoxious pedantry. I seriously doubt you even read the book you are suggesting to bibliography of. All your answers are either subjective opinions or convenient sidesteps to the what the poster is asking. Maybe you shouldn't discuss with BM fans because you are clearly not interested in anything resembling discussion given your crying up above.

>>18350380
Crying? Am I supposed to just roll over when someone ignores what I said for the sake of being "right" in their own little mind?

I will throw you a bone and give an example regarding the flaws in Notes on Blood Meridian. The chapter on making the gunpowder just fixates on conjecture regarding the sources and the symbolism McCarthy uses and ignores the viability of the technique despite the cited source clearly conflicting with it. The viability of the technique as outlined in BM simply does not matter any more than it being historically accurate, it is not a history book. In that very chapter when they are discussing the source material they say it needs stale urine (and it does), generally it was aged in the mix and not before hand, it also needs to soak for a good while (months). This is a variation of what is commonly known as the Swiss or French method of producing gunpowder.

Clearly I never read it.

You are just playing games.

>>18350015
fpbp

/thread

>>18350436
That is a lie of omission not falsely account.
What about historical records then? Do you just sit with your pencil and strike out whatever you don't want to believe in? There is difference in razing a Indian camp and creating gunpowder; one falls in the context of history and cannot be unproven unless with conflicting records and the other is a known technique. Stop shifting goalposts and back up your claims.
This would be so much easier if you just dropped the book which contradicts the historical accuracy of the massacres instead of beating around the bush for 2 hours like a lil' bitch. Just because you think the book (notes) isn't entirely accurate, you don't get to choose what is true and what is not and since you are so confident in it being wrong then cite your source. That's all I am asking.

Inb4 some faggy reply about "le spoonfeeding" or "you are mean".

>>18350173
no arguments

>>18350436
lmao dude you are so full of shit. First you say the violence is exaggerated, then you say you did say it happened, then you pull some random contradiction out of your ass lol what's your point

I started reading it and thought it was a pretty hard read, idk why but I thought the style would change after the first chapter. It stayed as hard but was a very rewarding read. Probably my favourite book.

>>18350030
I've been to war and I liked the book, what now you attention seeking faggot? Ask me how I know you're American

>>18350507
He turns up the long running sentences around chapter 4. I was doing fine until the "neat of foot" passage came and it hit me like punch lol.

>>18350477
Already said why I was not going to say which sources, told you where to find them. Was just demonstrating that I did read it. Have you spent two hours on this? I have spent like 10 minutes tops.

>>18350489
That is because I wasn't making arguments.

>>18350500
Do you not understand what frequency means?

>>18350507
yes, i heard others say something similar, that McCarthy uses complicated language and longwinded sentence structure that can be hard to follow (more so for non native speakers)

still no comparison to philosophical writings from someone like hegel

>>18350537
Absolutely worthless

>>18350552
I plainly stated that I was done attempting to engage in discussion with Blood Meridian fans, what did you expect?

>>18350563
And still spammed 5 paragraphs when the name of a book would do. Are you just ignorant or actually stupid?

>>18350537
>m-merely pretending!

Sounds like someone got filtered lol

>>18350563
Yet you still feel the need to cry about Blood Meridian, curious

>>18350010
I could tell the inspiration from Faulkner right from the beginning, the similarity is only formal though as Faulkner's style was more than just writing funny

>>18350547
>still no comparison to philosophical writings from someone like hegel
hegel has terrible virtuosity.

>>18350667
>the similarity is only formal though
What?

>>18350598
>spammed
Nah. More that you 3 anons will read this stuff, some will see there is more too it than just a circle jerk of anons going on about how great it is.

>>18350604
Who's pretending, I am having a great time jerking you guys around. What exactly did I get filtered by? If you are suggesting I was filtered by Blood Meridian that is unlikely, why would someone who was filtered by it read it 5 or 6 times, Notes on Blood Meridian, much of it's bibliography and do a good amount of independent research? It is one of the dozen or so books which I can and will happily discuss at great length when given the chance.

>>18350607
What do you think comments like this accomplish? I have noticed it to be an often used phrase in Blood Meridian threads and it never results in anything. I am beginning to suspect it is just a mantra. Does it work?

>>18350030
That's because you fought for Israel. If you fought for something of value, you'd find your sacrifice to be of value. Your opposition to the military is the same as my opposition to wage-labour. I refuse to help out a system that hates me.

>>18350689
>circle jerk of anons going on about how great it is.
You have some serious chips on your shoulder. We are talking about historical accuracy not it's greatness. Be honest, you have been buttblasted for your retardation in one too many BM threads before that you will literally say anything now to grind dat axe? Lmao.
The amount of seethe is staggering. You keep crying about not talking to BM fans but here you are again and I think I also saw you cry about it in one of the meme trilogy threads. Very pathetic desu

>>18350689
>Notes on Blood Meridian, much of it's bibliography and do a good amount of independent research?
Bullshit of the day. Can't back a single unfounded claim but claims to read everything.
Bullshit of the day.

>>18350724
>You keep crying about not talking to BM fans but here you are again
So that is a yes? It is a mantra? What does it do for you?

I said I do not know why I attempt to engage in conversation and that I was going to remedy that, the remedy being I would just have fun with it and not care. My change in tone since that statement should be clear enough, I blatantly started playing games and outright admitted it in the next post. It has been at least a year since I have been in any thread dealing with the meme trilogy.
>>18350751
Can't vs won't. Already demonstrated that I did read Notes and did so critically, not just swallowing it whole, want to test me more? Not that you could.

Anyways, it's been fun but life calls.

>>18350840
>It has been at least a year since I have been in any thread dealing with the meme trilogy.
So there are two crybabies that sound the exact same with the exact same complaint with the exact same boogeyman and with the exact same penchant for running away from any evidence for their claims? Doesn't sound good for the board desu.

>>18350075
What physical prowess? Wasn't he plump and overweight?

>>18350840
>Already demonstrated that I did read Notes and did so critically, not just swallowing it whole, want to test me more?
Opening the pdf and quoting from the "Separate, dedicated chapter" proves absolutely nothing. If you just looked a little bit below you would see there is an entire dedicated to massacre accounts (from sources btw) with date and all. Yet here you are talking trash.

>>18350883
hes described as a massive 6'6+ guy
>plump and overweight
maybe plump but not to a point where he would be inhibited in his mobility, at least nothing really hints at this

to his description:
>"The Judge is a man of strange appearance. He has an enormous frame and is close to 7 feet in height ... Physically, Holden is very strong, being capable of lifting a Howitzer with ease, and using a large rock to kill a mule in a single blow."
or
>In Samuel Chamberlain's autobiography My Confession: Recollections of a Rogue, Holden's appearance is described identically to that of his fictional counterpart:
>"He stood six foot six in his moccasins, had a large, fleshy frame, a dull, tallow-colored face destitute of hair and all expression, always cool and collected."
this give a good explanation for why he can easily physically overpower everyone he encounters.

>>18350075
I know nothing of publishing houses.
Vintage vs Picador vs Modern Library. Which one do I pick?
I've never read the original BM, only a translation.

>>18350915
Pick the picador classic

>>18350915
>I've never read the original BM, only a translation.
im listening to the audiobook on youtube
not sure if you are into that, but its freely available

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1hkS0DGhbQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILrHu4tjMtI

>>18350915
I dislike the generic covers from Picador, but I'd say they have the best printing and paper quality among those three.

>>18350931
Except spine

>everybody wants to talk about Blood Meridian
>no one has read No Country for Old Men, Sunset Limited, or The Road because there are film adaptations
>only that one homeless anon squatting in a national park has read Child of God
>no one can talk about the Border Trilogy because it everyone who finishes it kills themselves
>the only anons that read Suttree are all dying of alcoholism and post exclusively on /jp/

peepeepoopoo

>>18351002
>no one can talk about the Border Trilogy because it everyone who finishes it kills themselves
I am rereading Border trilogy right now, so not all of them.

>>18351002
kek; I've read No Country For Old Men and thought it was great (it was my first McCarthy book; I loved the movie and when I heard it was based on a book I just had to read it even though I hadn't read a book in years). I've also read ATPH and TC and am planning on re-reading them before I read COTP. BM and Suttree are still on my list

>>18351011
omae wa mo....

>>18350010
Suttree is by far the greater work. Hell, it's in the running for one of the best American novels of all time, if it's not in competition for being the singular greatest. It just gets overshadowed by his other works which are more bing bing wahoo, which I guess some people need in order to justify reading him.

>>18351058
>bing bing wahoo
>>>/v/
Out. Snoy

>>18351062
You hate it because it caricatures something you like. That's why it's effective.

>>18351058
I'm debating reading Suttree or Outer Dark next; I know Suttree is his longest work so I'm hesitant to jump in

>>18351076
Outer dark is pretty short. Go with it.

After reading BM for the 3rd time I can say that it's a nice book and I've gained a new perspective on it. Although I don't think I'm reading into it the way Mccarthy might want people to read into it.

>somebodys been fuckin my watermelons

>>18351058
>It just gets overshadowed by his other works which are more bing bing wahoo
I don't get it.

>>18350075
There was no gay rape scene.....Why are you making stuff up?

>>18351381
Not that poster, but the Comanche in the earlier part of the book dismount and start raping the dying men

>>18351381
>There was no gay rape scene
there was, or at least it is heavily implied
>"Holden describes the Kid as a disappointment, stating that he held in his heart "clemency for the heathen." He then follows the Kid into an outhouse and implicitly rapes and kills him. The Judge is last seen frenetically dancing in the nude, claiming that he will never die."

>>18351481
There is zero proof for that. I really dont know why this is in the wikipedia article.

>>18350436
>I will throw you a bone and support my argument
lol why are you such an obnlxious cunt. can't you have a conversation without making it a battle

instead of being vague and saying "read the sources" how about give an example of a source that proves a certain massacre didn't happen instead of "debunking" an obviously highly symbolic chapter

>>18350075
The easiest way to tell if someone actually read/understood BM is if they start talking about rape. Especially the judge as a rapist. The only mention of rape in the whole book is the first Indian massacre and it’s only briefly mentioned. People who say the judge raped the kid are pseuds of the highest order who either didn’t understand the book for themselves or didn’t even read it in the first place. This idea comes from (I think) a stupid YouTube video and is frequently parroted on here. There is no real evidence to support this claim and it is quite frankly out of character for the judge. He probably did kill the kid, but that’s up for interpretation. As far as I can tell (I’ve never watched the video I previously mentioned or done serious research into this theory), the basis for the rape theory comes from the fact that the judge is naked and he embraced the kid in a malicious sort of hug in the last scene with the two of them, and also the fact that in “my confession” the judge is said to have raped a little girl. However, the judge is literally always naked to some degree or another and it’s really just part of his character. Also “my confession” is confirmed bullshit and only a very loose basis for the characters and events in the book, especially the judge.

>>18350156
Who is the author of this poem?

>>18350010
ah, blood meridian, monsieur? that novel is the sark and chaparral of literature, the filament whereon rode the remuda of highbrow, corraled out of some destitute hacienda upon the arroya, quirting and splurting with main and with pyrolatrous coagulate of lobated grandiloquence. our eyes rode over the pages, monsieur, of that slatribed azotea like argonauts of suttee, juzgados of swole, bights and systoles of walleyed and tyrolean and carbolic and tectite and scurvid and querent and creosote and scapular malpais and shellalagh. we scalped, monsieur, the gantlet of its esker and led our naked bodies into the rebozos of its mennonite and siliceous fauna, wallowing in the jasper and the carnelian like archimandrites, teamsters, combers of cassinette scoria, centroids of holothurian chancre, with pizzles of enfiladed indigo panic grass in the saltbush of our vigas, true commodores of the written page, rebuses, monsieur, we were the mygale spiders too and the devonian and debouched pulque that settled on the frizzen studebakers, listening the wolves howling in the desert while we saw the judge rise out of a thicket of corbelled arches, whinstone, cairn, cholla, lemurs, femurs, leantos, moonblanched nacre, uncottered fistulas of groaning osnaburg and kelp, isomers of fluepipe and halms awap of griddle, guisado, pelancillo.

>>18351976
Reads like something out of Finnegans wake.

>>18351575
>There is zero proof for that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C_Px6_TuL4&t=90s
have you read the book?
surely you are familiar with the story, why make claims that can easily be disproven?

>>18350010
McCarthy isn’t very good
Le ebin random acts of violence is just for edgy teens

>>18350675
I am a retarded ESL, I meant similar in form

>>18352194
Form as in structure? No other Mccarthy book besides Orchard Keeper is similar to Faulkner in structure and certainly not BM.

>>18352037
>"all that violence is for edgy teens"
>literally based on a real account
t.limpwrist

I enjoyed it.

>>18350171
>>18351974
It's a poem/song called "The Player Who Takes No Chances" from a neo-folk album, The Unholy City by Thomas Ligotti

https://youtu.be/bJsV69bQhYI

>>18352503
>Ligotti
Of course. I really liked his two more popular poems though, especially 'this degenerate little town'.

>>18352535
Don't know about his other poetry but I really like this album.

>>18352218
>>18350010
The Faulkner influence in BM is obvious. I wouldn't say the influence shows up in the form as much as it does in the tone and the flow of the prose. Pic related is in the opening pages of Absalom, Absalom! Faulkner has a very distinct rhythm in his major works and Blood Meridian has one very similar. The lack of punctuation is part, but it's a side effect rather than the substance of it. I coincidentally re-read The Sound and the Fury immediately prior to my first read-through of Blood Meridian and there was a clear continuity. The way in which the dialogue is presented is another clear indicator. McCarthy undoubtedly adds his own flare and style, but the influence of Faulkner is clear.

>>18352673
whoops, this pic instead

>>18352673
It's not formal but more stylistic, yes. It's the biblical rhetoric mixed with Conrad that gives Faulkner his tone and it has carried over to McCarthy. Though he tends to be more unconventional in his grammar usage.

>>18350010
I'm an ESL and I really struggle with keeping up with it I don't know 1/4 of the words he uses and I'm not use to how he ponctuates his dialogues, I'll give it another try because I'm a sucker for a far west setting and the Judge is rad

>>18352700
or you could just listed to the audiobook, mr. adhd zoomer if you are not much into reading
its linked here >>18350927

>>18352761
>anon has trouble with the vocab
>"just go listen to it"
Use your head somewhiles.

>>18350028
Do you actually think that's exaggerated? A lot crazier shit happened

>>18352761
I wouldn't be here if I wasn't into reading anon
pretty good voice for the audio book but it wouldn't help me understand it better

>>18352785
no it makes more sense as you waste less time struggling with words that you dont understand but have to focus more on the context as you hear it to make sense of it

>>18350173
>Blood Meridian is not about a war.
Nigger, start reading the book. The judge is pretty much the incarnation of war.

>What is my trade?

>War. War is your trade. Is it not?

>And it aint yours?

>Mine too. Very much so.

>What about all them notebooks and bones and stuff?

>All other trades are contained in that of war.

>>18350883
>>18350911

In addition, there's the scene where Judge Holden hurls a meteorite over his head, and successfully wins a bet. Apparently the task was so difficult that no one in the company bet on Holden to win.

The cosmic theme of the meteorite ties into McCarthy's vivid descriptions of space and astronomy, geology, and the natural world in general throughout the book. I would argue that the meteorite scene represents the universality and strength of Holden's brutal ideology. I found the whole book to be quite pessimistic.

>>18353706
>I would argue that the meteorite scene represents the universality and strength of Holden's brutal ideology
... or the fact that he barely resembles a human, more a demon in human form, at which his superhuman strength hints at.
>I found the whole book to be quite pessimistic
well there seems to be an absence of moral judgement within the work itself, so "pessimistic" is you reflection on the impression the book gives you.

i would call the book "realistic" instead as it is a lot more honest about anything else when it comes to the nature of violent conflict and war.

>>18351002
I've read every book you mentioned except sunset limited, and have never seen The road movie adaptation

>>18353835
I think it's intentionally ambiguous whether Holden is a man, demon, or the devil himself, and most likely that he's an amalgamation. There is moral judgement in the book that originates from the characters (the Judge, obviously, but also Tobin and to a small degree the kid). But are you arguing that McCarthy is not passing moral judgement on war/violence?

>>18350010
It's great but if you want to see the Faulkner influences you'll have to read the early novels in Appalachia. By BM he has made large adjustments to avoid the comparison.

>>18351829
The judge raped phoebe

>>18354428
I don’t recall any character named phoebe in the novel

The man raped and murdered the little girl at the end

>>18350114
Now reply to the rest of the post

>>18354428
She was his sister.