/lit/ - Literature

>>18350276
I simply can't read anything that is female main character. I can't put myself, get emotionally attached to the character and root for them in any way. I tried to reading some female mc lead books for writing my own female characters but the female characters i read was all sound two dimensional. I have no idea how to write a funny woman character without using it's sex appeal to make funny sex jokes. When i read about woman characters they all sound like, they got powers, their lineage has some bullshit vampire blood, wolf blood they are time traveler with no logical explanation and they are really not that interesting. Tell me some interesting woman main characters in books and woman leads. Should i write my woman character like Jeanne'd Arc?

>>18350317
Golden Compass and it has a movie that's pretty true to the books, I haven't seen the Netflix TV series of it though

“A summer afternoon on the cusp of a much needed slumber,” observed Mr Cambran at the windowsill.
For her daughter, the words signaled the end of unbridled freedom that the summer break brought wherein she’d be sent away from the joys of lounging under the oak tree standing tall next to their yellow home, swinging from dawn to dusk watching the little bird take care of its young whilst peering anxiously down at her from its perch, wondering if she posed a threat or was simply just a nuisance who screamed loudly when a bee approached or stamped heavily in the ground playing games where the sun and the shade became one, and have to resume her studies only to be told reprimanded for the lack of education she had received over the summer and that she had hardly an excuse when she didn’t travel to any foreign countries or exotic places like any of the other girls.
She picked up another daisy at the edge of the shade and stared at the sky. The sun baked all it could see and laughed at the world, sweating under parasols, cursed in response at having to slap away curious insects that crept or flew to the unfortunate person engulfed in a lingering perfume or indulging in a sweet beverage; of course, they would then scream, like her, when a bumblebee or wasp appeared (often mistaking the former with the latter) and dart out of their brief solace to be in momentary safety until the searing heat forced them back seconds later.
Above the world, beyond the trees and the birds and the bees, clouds draped over the sun and a silent cheer swelled within all below as they were released from captivity and began to, quickly, finish any engagements they needed to fulfill ahead of the hibernation that would soon begin behind a blanket of moody weather the world was more accustomed.
The little girl darted from the shade.

how is my writing? what could i improve?

>>18350317
>Jeanne'd Arc

"There is hope, but not for us." This quote by Kafka stayed looming in his head as he sat there motionless, stooped over the pile of unfinished papers and cursing every second of his life. With each passing moment his dread increased which further prolonged his procrastination. He felt hopeless before the future. Sensing that he won't make any further progress for the night, he got up and went to bed. This provided no relaxation for his mind as it drifted further and further into despair. Naturally he couldn't sleep. His mind was a damp hollow cave in which every thought echoed.

>>18350317
>first post is incel bait
Yeah, this thread going to suck more than usual.

>>18350458
This isnt "write whats on your mind". Dramatize your thoughts or keep them to yourself.

>>18350499
>Dramatize
Not all writing needs to be dramatic

>>18350439
I'm not a fan of the long sentence writing style in general, but I know some people who do. Maybe they would find this charming

>>18350506
The post I was referring to, however, did.

>>18350317
I don't mind female mc's but I cringe the fuck out if I know the author is a male. especially if it's some kinda numale that wants to appear progressive but doesn't really understand what that would mean beyond an incredibly surface level.

>>18350544
Hey, Brandon Sanderson might post here.

>>18350569
brandon specifically makes me cringe. his dialogue is so bad, but it's not really limited to his female characters. I'll still read his stuff though

>>18350544
I'm a male writing a fantasy series. There are two MCs - a male and a female. The relationship between the two is an important plot device in several ways. Maybe because I'm not an incel or numale feminazi I don't find it difficult or cringe at all.

>>18350474
I wish it was incel bait. Tell us your woman characters to entartain us then. I sure know your mc is not a replica of "man" stereotypes.

>>18350615
>2 mc's
well that's a hard pass either way. a book instantly dips 2-3 points on the ten scale for me if it isn't primarily single pov

>>18350635
Okay. Name five single POV fantasy books. I'll wait.

>>18350615
That's what i am trying to achieve too. The female and male lead are childhood friends so they have great trust in each other. Maybe some childhood crush at one point, but not anymore. The relationship between them is actually important to the plot too. I just don't get the main character women where they go after vampires, werewolves, dude bring out of his shirt. This, to me only is fetish material and nothing of value says about this main character. In fantasy settings you can easily avoid these stupid teenage girl writing style but i have no idea how to lead a female main character on a fantasy setting. Most i read where women are time traveler, prophecy of the chosen ones and killing enslavers, rescuing slaves. Which is fine actually but they are made in a way that it's like the opposite of male power fantasy where the dude gets harem or something.

>>18350625
>I sure know your mc is not a replica of "man" stereotypes.
What are these even supposed to be?

>>18350654
>i have no idea how to lead a female main character on a fantasy setting
If there is magic, you aren't even limited by physical advantages of males and can write any story you want with them. Specially if there is no/less sexism in your fantasy world.

>>18350652
I said primarily. also, fine.
wizard of earth sea, blood song, Name of the wind( :^) ) assassins apprentice, Delve.

>>18350276
Last night I wrote ~3000 world's. Characters are starting to show their personalities. Writing has got me by the balls now. Everything else is just a distraction.

>>18350654
Yeah, in mine they were childhood friends which is the origins of the relationship. I guess the context of my story is different: I'm not writing a short lived romance, and the whole hurr durr vampire thing is meaningless to me. That's juvenile. I keep my end goal in mind - I have a fair idea of my conclusion. I'm writing a story about the fate of an entire world. I don't play into the stronk woman trope, or the incel trope - they were two people who could have been, but never were - and their love is expressed in other ways. But that being said, what is love? To lay down your life for a friend? In my story, he just wants to be recognised and appreciated - to be the hero; but she is the one who will save that world - but the way she does it is manipulative and calculated. In a way it was always her story - she was the one to save the world. But she deliberately writes herself into history as the villian so that he - almost undeservingly - gets what he wants: recognition. How does he grapple with the betrayals, and then ultimately receiving his hearts desire, which only he knows the truth - he does not deserve the hero status. How does he reconcile this fame and fortune with the loss of his only true friend, and the true circumstances that only he knows?

>>18350715
>But she deliberately writes herself into history as the villian so that he - almost undeservingly - gets what he wants
Yikes, reading my own ideas being done by others feels bad, and I really liked my "she actually set up the whole thing, to give him what he wants" twist.

>>18350715
Fuck man, my story looks really similar to yours. The main difference is my mc male is kind of jew. The woman saves the world in my story too, their relationship is like sam and frodo from lotr. Sam is pulling the shit out of frodo, he throw the ring, he makes sure frodo is safe, he plans everything etc. My male and female leads relationship is like this. The prophecy is for the female lead but the male keeps together everything.
Ah, nevermind my story branches where the female lead is actually not a villain, but a sacrifice for greater good type.

I'm gonna self publish my novella and advertise it on /lit/. I won't make any shill threads on it, but I'm gonna buy ads for it. It'll be well written since I am incredibly autistic about the quality of my prose. The consensus seems to be that no traditional publisher wants to touch novellas so unless I want to sit on it, I might as well self publish. I'm tentatively calling it Tower of Gödel and I'll either finish, edit, and publish by the end of the year or I'll quit forever. Mark my words.

>>18350752
Nah. They are both ultimately pawns in a much bigger game. It is much more nuanced than I wrote. This isn't simply a "her giving him what he wants" thing. That's what 50 Shades of Gray is for. The twist is that she's playing 4D chess - and rewriting the rule book for those who come after.

>>18350793
>This isn't simply a "her giving him what he wants" thing. That's what 50 Shades of Gray is for.
I didn't mean it literally but as in her setting up events or at least manipulating these, so the guy gets his recognition for saving the world; or did I get that wrong too?

>>18350773
See: >>18350793

She is breaking an unending cycle of "light" and "dark" so that the denizens of the planet can take control of their own destiny and take actual ownership of their world. There are bigger threats out there in time and space, and everything will be lost if this "heaven and hell" theatre is allowed to play out forever.

>>18350809
I would read the fuck out of a woman character like this. Hope you publish someday and end my look on female main leads. Cheers mate

>>18350802
In the context of their interpersonal relationship and individual motivations, it works. She uses their friendship and betrays him - like a lamb to slaughter. He doesn't appreciate why until after the fact. By then, it's too late, and he is hailed by the realm as the hero who saved the world. His reconcilation with achieving his intrinsic motivations and the truth of how it all came to be - and his loss of his oldest and truest friend - sends him off the deep end. But this is ultimately a bigger story than the two of them.

>>18350824
I hope the same for you too, mate.

>>18350702
It seriously helped me during my nofap days. It's great when you get invested in it, you want to build your world, cities, cultures, characters, relationships, the current stakes of world. It's actually really fun and i am finally glad after lurking on the net i found a good active hobby that i can proudly say i love it.

>>18350904
Yea! I haven't been visiting /gif/ as much and haven't played video games in over two weeks. I just wait all day for that time I can be alone at night to write.

Do you guys write from reference images ever?

>>18350702
>Last night I wrote ~3000 world's

>>18351053
When i really hit a wall, i just look reddit's networksublist there is a lot of over there to open my mind on stuff so it helps a lot to push a little bit further. I also lurk at /wg/ to steal some ideas from images. It's completely fine if you don't just explain the scenery of the images you look at but twist it for your own story.

i'm struck by a certain line from forster's aspect of a novel which (paraphrased) says that the only purpose of a novel, or any work of creative fiction, is to keep the reader reading, and now the more i think about it, the more it seems to me that forster had got it right, that, there are nuances, but that these are only matters of audience--who your reader is and what he has read before and what will keep him, in particular, reading--and that every technique and every "rule" and exception to the rule can be reduced to: "keep the reader reading". the audience is the most important element; to understand what they are feeling and thinking as they read. to go further: the only audience worth considering is the audience of one, the audience you can totally and completely understand: yourself. you write for that audience in the blind hope that in the world there are others like you or write in the common ground between those two extremes.

>>18351081
Kek I didn't notice that autocorrect

>>18351081
Maximus Kekus.
>>18351053
Only if I draw them myself.

>>18351148
Wait, you mean it's not about showing off how clever I'm so my crush notices that she made a mistake ten years ago?

>CHECK OUT MY ISEKAI ON ROYAL ROAD

>>18351227
Which is yours?

>>18351257
The one that's poorly written and relies heavily on derivatives of already-derivative tropes directly lifted from anime. Drop me your Twitter so we can collab!

>>18351188
You can do this just drag it out over a 10 novel epic final line of the book;

>Fuck you Sarah. My heart is forever shattered into a million inconceivable pieces you bitch.

I'm having trouble with my descriptions of places. This is an example from the novel I'm working on:

"The beach itself was about a kilometre and a half long, the sand was light yellow to the point of almost being white. The ocean as such was clear and see-through close to the shore and became a deeper blue the further out you went. The waters were mostly calm, protected by Thailand on the other side, and were warm enough to swim in even in the middle of the night. All along the beach were tall palm trees where you could seek refuge from the blistering sun.
Lining the roads along the beach, like almost every street in Cambodia, were electric wires on poles. Every time an electric line would fail, they usually didn’t remove the old one, they just added a new one on top. This resulted in a chaotic crisscrossing net of wires held up by wooden poles who sometimes seemed to be held upright by the very wires they were supposed to hold up. Like two drunkards walking down the street each supporting the other from falling."

Any constructive feedback is appreciated.

>>18351314
What's the genre? These sorts of descriptive paragraphs (world building) are acceptable in epic fantasy, but are otherwise a waste of words - the same descriptive affect can be achieved through the actions of the characters directly advancing the plot. This sounds like a sexpat erotica so..

How the actual fuck did randidly ghosthound get so popular? I see many decently written webnovels credit it as an inspiration, so I checked it out. It's legit reads like something a retard would write.

>>18351148
It's pretty pertinent to note that DFW. Was one of the biggest offenders against his own rules. I've noticed that I do it myself, in that the things I hate most about others' writing just so happens to—by compete happenstance, I'm sure—correlate strongly with criticisms I make about my own writing... yet continue to ignore. What we hate most about others is really just what we hate most about ourselves. Apply that to writing, and then to DFW's views on it. Proceed on to consider his actual writing and then optionally include the maybe relevant fact that he killed himself. You might end up with a more holistic understanding.

>>18351375
Disregard faggot fanfiction and selfpublished faggotry. Focus all your effort and attention on your work - that way you will actually get it done, and it won't be tainted.

>>18350439
The only thing that bothers me about the prose is, as previously mentioned, that you're sentences go on and on and on. I think if you edited it to be shorter full sentences it would actually be pretty good, in my opinion.

The similies work for me and don't seem too derivative. I also get clear images in my mind when I read it which is always a good sign.

There are some mistakes here and there that would be fixed with another readthrough, like:

> only to be told reprimanded for the lack

>>18350317
> no idea how to write a funny woman character
> funny woman characte

Maybe because that wouldn't be believable.

>>18351314
Same here. I feel like a npc recently. Before i write the place it's all up in my mind in great detail. I write whatever descriptive detail comes to mind. After finishing i re-read it and nothing fucking makes sense to me or i go ask a friend and they say "yeah i totally understand this place, it makes sense, no problem here." I read and nothing appear in mind. The image is still in my mind, the words are describing it to some extent (for me, at least.) but i just can't make this place real when i read it. What the fuck is my problem. It seriously breaks my mind and i can't understand why i can't imagine what i wrote...

>>18351341
>This sounds like a sexpat erotica so

Yikes, I guess I'll have to rewrite...

> the same descriptive affect can be achieved through the actions of the characters directly advancing the plot

What if the main character is the person describing it?

>>18351537
>what if the mc is describing it

Easy. By doing things. No need to spend paragraphs giving the lay of the land if the mc is interacting with the world to advance the plot.

>>18351388
I was going for a run off stream of consciousness sort of thing and its pretty much like this through the entirety of the piece (will be est. 60k words); do you think I should just do a full edit and shorten each sentence to its core instead then? If that'll make my writing better and generally clearer then I'll begin now

>>18351553
Ah, so if I get what you're saying it needs to be the mc walking on the road along the beach? instead of having him describe it in one big chunk?

>>18351554
I think in general, there's not much wrong with the words, but since the sentences never end it feels like I'm exhausted by the time I reach a fulls stop.

>>18351587
yeah i guess 141 words in a sentence isnt really acceptable lol

>>18351582
Kind of. Prose that advances the plot. In rem. In the action. Why do the tangled powerpole cables matter?

>>18350443
made me chuckle

Is 10,000 words for a chapter acceptable? Should i break it down to like web novel standarts?(2000 words at max) How many pages that would make in a book?

>>18351621
Do we only ever describe things that directly matter. What about what the tangled cables say about the setting and how the setting impacts the plot and the characters? It's a messy, unkempt area, where you can't rely on the utilities and the government?

>>18351664
Everything is acceptable. How long are your chapters generally? Does it absolutely have to be as long? Think it'd be around 30-40 pages.

I prefer to keep mine 3-6k but I have some 7k outliers.

>>18351664
That, I feel, would be rather long for a chapter. Hell, that's at least 5 to 10 chapters.

>>18350702
Was any of it any good though?

>>18351683
Inefficient goverment in a third world shithole is generally implied by the general setting, with nuances drawn from the actual plot. Unless a shitty electricity grid is relevant to advancing the story - don't waste time talking about it.

>>18351664
Doesn't matter. If it's good, it's good.

>>18351698
Fair enough.

>>18351698
When you write do you only describe things that are immediately connected to the plot?

What about people's faces, or their build? Do you not describe that unless it's directly tied to the plot?

>>18351686
They are around 6k-10k, I explain one scenario in one chapter as a whole, if i break the story line then it must be, location change, tone change or else.
>>18351689
I don't understand how it becomes 5 to 10 chapters, elaborate please.
>>18351711
Alright

>>18351729
>Do you not describe that unless it's directly tied to the plot?
They usually are thought. Say you describe someone's face for being hot because he character wants to hook up with them or because their hotness distracts them from their goal. Their build matters if they could take the MC in a fight or aid them. Or showing something they might be interested in, like bribing some fatty with some nice food.

I recently wrote a sentence of 150+ words, is this acceptable? >>18351742

>>18351749
I think you may be being to spergy about this. I'll take your advice with a grain of salt. Sometimes you want to set a scene and a mood. Sometimes you want the reader to have a clear image in their mind, surely?

In Moby Dick Queequeg's tattoos don't impact the story in any way, so why are they mentioned?

>>18351780
If the word syllables are not repeating itself or the predicates are not similar.
Basically use different words, do not repeat in the same sentence.
One problem with the long sentences is that reader might forget the beginning when they come to the end of the sentence. If you read and don't forget what is happening in the beginning than it's fine, but reader will forget because most people nowadays have short attention spans.
Put yourself into the readers perspective and if you still find it okay, then there's no problem.

>>18351884
its a long passage describing so almost all of the words are different while occasionally falling back to reference each other in the same sentence, they are inherently apart like the sun and the flowers and a bird that settles down with the sun beating down on its feathery back as it eyes the dirt in the ground and then stamps its feet to gather up any worms that may hide beneath

>>18351786
>Sometimes you want to set a scene and a mood.
Which helps the story too if done with thought. Different settings can serve the plot too. It matters whether your climax is set during a snow storm at a train station or during a night at a library. Knowing whether it's a large or small library can matter too, if someone is trying to hide there or something.
>Queequeg's tattoos don't impact the story in any way
They tell us more about his character, and generally adds mystery. (Keep in mind the time period, when tattoos were a lot more significant) Was it absolutely necessary to mention them for that? Nope. Could it add a sense of authenticity to him? Sure.

Actually deciding which details to pick and to keep is one of your biggest challenges as a writer.

>>18350474
>Incel
R E N T F R E E
E
N
T
F
R
E
E

>>18350276
Hows your hololive fanfiction going these days?

>>18351947
Noel has reached a weight of 300 lbs in my latest chapter.

>>18351970
Hopefully 300lbs of PURE MUSCLE

How are your sex scenes coming?

>>18351999
only virgins write sex scenes

>>18351999
There are no sex scenes in my book. There are several scenes featuring masturbation though, and I used onomatopoeia to describe the sound.

>>18351053
I write with art I commissioned sometimes

>>18352020
I think sex is important for stories

I have just sent my first short story to a local contest. The first price is really succulent, but I doubt I'll get it. I hope I get some feedback at least or an honorable mention at most.

>>18351999
>>18352045
Why does she look so frumpy?

>>18351936
>Actually deciding which details to pick and to keep is one of your biggest challenges as a writer.

So for example, the tangled lines can underscore the mc state of mind at the time of the begining of the story? As well as underscore to people who haven't been to the third world just how lazy and bare-bones the government resources are?

It would explain why powercuts are so prevalent throughout the story, etc.

Do you have any feedback on the prose itself? do the similies work? is it gay to just describe the sand as "almost white"?

>>18352049
>feedback
>from a contest
If you're not one of the winners you won't hear anything from them, sorry.
I know how it feels.

>>18352045
God damn did that show take a nose dive.

>>18352061
because that is a man wearing makeup

>>18351999
The world is gonna be destroyed with whole universe within a year or two, every second counts for the greater good they have to move on. They can't waste time on trivial stuff.

>>18352068
>first price

>>18351999
>>18352045
What happened in the 2nd season? The lesbian thing was so blatantly forced for virtue signal points the whole thing is now completely unwatchable.

>>18352088
>person makes a typo
>therefore he's wrong
Okay, but you're going to be disappointed

>>18352069
It literally only gets better

>>18352112
>typo
t. fat fingers

>>18352109
You people are such histrionic pearl clutching faggots, my god.

>>18352088
Sorry, ESL here. If it helps my case, I didn't write the story in English.

>>18352118
>HA HA BOOBA
This is usually a last ditch effort to sell cheap sex points. Plot took a nose dive in the 2nd season and the forceful "charlotte is a dyke now" shit was tacky and boring. No surprise they resorted to waving her tits around on camera because the ratings are sinking.

>>18352068
Sucks. At least it served as an excuse to get me to write something.

>>18351936
Oh, by the way, your feedback about it having to matter actually gave me a new idea about where the story should go. So thank you so much for that.

Sincerely, thank you.

>>18351999
Only some lesbian tender loving care but it'll probably be fade to black and be implied by another character with hickeys

>>18350276
How many books did you guys sell this month? I sold 5

>>18352145
How is a bohemian cosmopolitan girl like Lotte who lives in weimar Berlin and has been involved with seedy underground sex clubs and occult sex rituals having sex with her hot girl friend in any capacity forced or out of character for her? Shes always been a bold and adventurous type who likes to push herself into new things

>>18352189
jesus fucking christ. i knew the level of discourse on this general was low, but i had no idea we'd sunk precisely this low.

>>18352189
oh how original, like every female lead on HBO and Netflix. boring.

>>18352189
Lotte was attractive in the 1st season, but when she became a lesbian the whole thing got retarded. became too blatant in ideology. plus the fact they didn't have lotte and rath get together is just pure fucking retarded writing. nobody gives a flying fuck about raths ex-wife or this hipster dyke they factory lined charlotte into to appease fat womyn homos who watch hbo for 15 hours per day.

>>18352195
"Hastings!" he cried. "Hastings, come quick! To me my good man! They're discussing lesbians now, the rascals!"
Reginald shouted out his window, hoping for his neighbor to hear. But there was no light in the windows of Hastings' house, no smoke rising from the chimney. Had the daft fool gone to church?
Once again Reginald found himself as the sole defender of quality content in the thread. This would require some refreshments, so he removed the bowl of peanuts he had in his desk drawer.
"They thought me insane when I told them I peeled pistachios by the bowl for later consumption", Reginald spoke aloud to no one in particular, "but we'll see who's mad now!"
Scrunch, scrunch, scrunch went Reginald's jaws as he chewed the precious nuts, typing away at his keys like a maestro seated at a piano. A day for grand deeds was upon him once again. The thread had sunk to depths hitherto unimagined, but he'd drag it back up by the scruff of its neck, wouldn't he just!

>>18352238
if you think i'm making fun of you for talking about lesbians rather than for gossiping about shitty television series, you're even dumber than i thought

>>18352200
>>18352195
Even if it makes you upset, it still fits the character. You cant even handle a lesbian existing in Weimar Berlin?

>>18352226
You're absolutely brainfucked, what "ideology"? She had a bisexual fling with a girl who quickly dies. Rath and Lotte do in fact get together romantically at the end.

>>18352258
I'm just trying to have fun here, I don't care what the argument is actually about

last question
Should i keep posting on wattpad even though it's not some knock off of a light novel, sex novel, anything stupid that would be on wattpad, not a woman main character.
I like wattpad's format and because i am a ESL it actually makes quite sense for me to post there.

I wonder if I should just publish chapter by chapter on royalroad instead of self-publishing

>>18352334
is railroad actually any good? thought it was just lit rpg shit

>>18352363
it gives reddit medals when your story makes some achievement. just from this couldn't recommend it

>>18352363
I have no idea. I mean chapter by chapter really on any site, I've been in the mind to just self-publish for a while.

>>18352376
Do it like me then, i am an ESL so i post on Wattpad because there is already a community of my language over there. Bu it mostly consists bullshit stories. If you care about funny numbers that will get your chapters then don't post it. If you don't care how much view will it get then post it, because if you don't go to other authors book and write "hey read my book" and self promote it then your story probably won't take much views.

>>18352067
Sure ... if the details are conveyed in the right way, which is where it all can easy break apart, and can be subjective too.
>Do you have any feedback on the prose itself?
I'm not even that guy. >>18351749
is where I joined the fray.
>>18351314
I take it's this?

And well … it reads like a first draft for YOU to get the details out on paper. For anything more, IMO it doesn't work at all, and reads like someone tries to describe a picture instead of painting one in my mind. And most of the descriptions are uninspired and unhelpful too. The passive voice at start and distance doesn't help either. Giving it more "connectors" to the character would improve it massively.

To pick some of the worst offenders for me...
>about a kilometre and a half long
>light yellow to the point of almost being white
How do these matter? Why do they matter? Do they actually matter? Being generous, one can interpret the first as the character being autistic enough to measure it for some reason or know it due their job/interests and the second as the character being indecisive and/or lacking more precise vocabulary for colors. If the beach and the sand do matter, it'd be best to focus on detail that make them stand out from some random beach. Otherwise it's sorta the equivalent of describing a human by telling me they have two arms and two legs..
>and became a deeper blue the further out you went
Isn't that how it works? It'd be noteworthy if it remained clear. Or if you combined the detail about the blue with something else, again, why does it matter? The colors of the almost white sand and blue meaning to say something? I don't see it.
>The waters were mostly calm, protected by Thailand on the other side
That "mostly" kills it. Adverbs are fucking weak. "protected by Thailand" just reads weird but at least this was an attempt at a less direct info-dump.
>were warm enough to swim in even in the middle of the night.
Now this is much better. Instead of some pointless temperature description, you also provide a reason for giving it. It doesn't seem to relevant but a huge step up from the shit before.
>All along the beach were tall palm trees where you could seek refuge from the blistering sun.
Very functional, closer to the last example but just kinda dull. Maybe if you could combine this with the shit about the sand.
Afterwards it gets a lot better but IMO you could be more efficient and try to compress the information into fewer sentences. The last sentence ... well, it does have some personality but also comes a bit out of nowhere since the previous stuff was more matter of fact.
>is it gay to just describe the sand as "almost white"?
It's mostly lazy. Find some "almost white" object at/near the beach, or related to the character's life to compare it too.

>>18352408
no its this
>>18350439

>>18352311
If you want to neve get noticed sure

>>18352334
You can always do both

>>18352363
It's a decent place compared to most alternatives

>>18352446
I write stories as hobby. I never think i will make big so i guess i will keep on writing wattpad.

>>18351999
Forgot to say pic unrelated. Holy shit that thing is fucking ugly.

>>18352446
The only thing that really turns me off from royal road is I know that consistency and frequent publishing is rewarded, as probably is the case most places. I don't like the idea of not taking my time to draft a whole part of a story to make sure everything works and there aren't loose threads and instead going chapter by chapter.

I don't know if that's actually how it actually works out but that's just how I suspect it does. I suppose I could just finish, get the professional edits done and then release chapter by chapter on royal road and self publish, but that seems weird too.

>>18352505
if you are for some reason really attached to RR, you could write the whole thing in advance, edit it, and then pretend you're writing it every week. literally nobody would ever know.

>>18352522
I am not attached to RR at all, I was merely looking at this from the standpoint of what might be more successful in the long run.

>>18351689
More like 2–5.

>>18352416
Well, fuck me.

>>18350439
The perspective from the get go confuses me a bit.
>Mr Cambran
>her daughter
Either I'm not progressive enough or it could use a paragraph break, or a sentence before to make it clear it's from the perspective of a third, unmentioned character.

>have to resume her studies only to be told reprimanded for the lack of education she had received over the summer and that she had hardly an excuse when she didn’t travel to any foreign countries or exotic places like any of the other girls.
Sounds like something from the perspective of the daughter. So maybe you're going for omniscient third person?

Without knowing the perspective some stuff gets trickier to rate. Take the bird, if it's from the perspective of a child, it's fine. If it's from perspective of someone else ... well, specifying wouldn't hurt.

>cursed in response at having to slap away curious insects that crept or flew to the unfortunate person engulfed in a lingering perfume or indulging in a sweet beverage
Like, maybe I'm just tired but it took two attempts to get you're meaning the world and after focusing on the kid ... it's just weird to go there since it creates distance IMO.
>dart out of their brief solace to be in momentary safety until the searing heat forced them back seconds later.
"Dart out" and "seconds later" make it feel "fast" but the "until" slows it down ... so it kinda feels clunky.
>was more accustomed
+to? I'm an ESL yo.

Aside of that, it's mostly cute, although the long running sentences are a bit much after the first two. The similies all seem fine.

>>18352522
It's actually what people strongly suggest you have a backlog ready, the more the better for your sanity (if you're a slow writer) if he had it completed then it's all the better.

>>18352408
>>18352416
No, you got it right if you were talking to me.

Yes, it is the first draft. Thank you so much for the feedback. It's very useful.

Phonetic anon here. My research has shown me that combinations of five phonetically similar words in a sentence make it feel 'complete'. Here are some examples. The 'x5' means there's five phonetically similar words in the sentence.

His shoes loudly pounded the pavement as he attempted to outrun the cloud’s quickly nearing boundary. X5

He felt an instinctually strong aversion to the lightning and clouds racing headlong toward him with unerring speed. X5

He ceased to be able to think of anything except excruciating pain from the sudden piercing heat enveloping him from head to toe. X5


He wanted to return home, to be elsewhere and perfectly safe from the disturbing black mass working towards him from the far end of the street. X5

As the clouds silently surmounted meter after meter of the pavement and road ahead of him, Edgar was certain no good could come from being caught up in the workings of the giant black curtain ahead of him which moved with the unceasing turning of a clock’s hand. X5

>>18352831
remove one of those 'ahead of him' 's from the last sentence.

>>18352831
>phonetic anon
more like pathetic anon, does this sound complete

>A sock was docked from a block to his rock hard cock.

"complete" can be anything
>she cried.
is a full sentence.

>>18352852
Obviously you need to make a sincere attempt to make the sentence work in context. I'm not saying 'she cried' isn't a full sentence. But you're not going to fill a book with 'she cried, she cried, she cried.' and have it work as more than a meme are you?

>>18352864
What I'm obviously pointing out is that exercise is useless as you're bound to a huge restriction and would not fill a book either, it would be repetitive drivel.

How do I describe the environment? I can only go as far as "it looks like a modern city/park/forest" before I short-circuit. But i want to have it be more prominent, I want to give off the feeling of someone who''s taking in the environment of a location as they first see it.

>>18352929
read more. write more. there's no shortcut.

>>18352938
that's obvious, but what should I read for the specific sensation I'm describing?

>>18352950
wrong attitude. it's the mentality that creates those kinds of descriptions you're trying to develop, not the descriptions themselves.

>>18352958
so what you're saying is, I need to change my mindset around?

>>18352938
>>18352958
Basically this, as frustrating as it sounds.

>>18352968
you need to change your mindset from a person who hasn't written and read enough to the mindset of a person who has written and read enough. what's the solution? read and write more.

>>18352929
You want to describe it in the vein of the character if the story is first person first off. If it's--third person you still may want to describe it in whichever character PoV the reader is sharing at that moment. As for describing the environment, you really never want to to describe something as a "something" unless it's largely irrelevant. Spend time taking in the scenery with their senses. What does it smell like, how is the temperature, does it feel like there is rust in the air, how much noise is there? What some of the nearest buildings look like and what might they lead the reader on to think about the place as a whole?

>>18351696
Yea I think so. It is the first draft so just putting stuff down. Will need some polishing.

>>18351314
>The beach itself was more than a mile long, with pale yellow sand flanking the clear white water that steadily took on a deeper blue.
It's shitty but the point is be more concise.

>>18351664
seems like too much but then again i have adhd.

>>18352023
no need to be that explicit. people know what sound fapping makes.

>>18352929
base it off places you've seen. that shouldnt be too difficult since you're story seems to take place in a modern setting.

r8 my poetry, im a beginner at doing this

Shades darker than the silky stones
Burnished by the rays abroad
Her curls drape,
Whilst robes take shape,
Enchanting feminine landscape

Yet a thought intercepts
Idyllic presuppositions
Could it be true,
That I have met you,
Across the dusky dew?

Now the Sun has arrived
Alea Jacta Est
Let it wash the land,
Like the Sinai sand,
Binding our souls firsthand

>>18350276
>Story Genius: How to Write an Overly Long and Sarcastic Title (So Bored Midwit Women Will Buy Your Book And Shill it to Their Friends)
I can't believe you faggots are still listing this awful book lmao

>>18353399
Do poetry teachers not teach meter anymore? Not just this anon, but it seems like every modern poem is free form

>>18351314
Instead of making suggestions I just I rewrote it:
The yellow-white beach was over a kilometer long, and the ocean beside it was clear and calm, warm enough to swim in, even at night. Cool-shadowed palm trees decked the coast, and roads skirted the sand further inland. When one of the roadside electric lines failed it was left where it was, and another line was errected to replace it, causing an ever complicating criss-cross of black wires, living and dead, to grow along the street, anchored by unsteady wooden poles.

>>18353399
>>18330080

writing isn't fun
it's unfun

>>18352614
It also gives you plenty of time to edit in advance if there's some scene you want to flesh out or add in more foreshadowing.

>>18353332
>>18353511
Which one is better?

I wrote a short thing. I kinda want to extend it to a longer story. Let me know what you guys think.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FPIyjwo8KMknZHR3AHhXmJsk7tqGbEJOQFXJ3j9ykiI/edit?usp=sharing

Im gay

>>18353757
Same though

>>18353511
It is absolutely more clear. Stick to this. Only detail everything to it's core when it is plot relevant would be my advice.

>>18353747
>docs.spyware.com
nice try botnet

>>18353848
I'm so confused bro

>>18351314
You could measure the beach itself to be around one thousand and five hundred meters long in metric, or one mile in old money. The sand of the beach you could feel between your delicate, beautiful and undeniably delicious toes was light yellow to the point of almost being the colour white. The ocean you could see if you were there was crystal clear, transparent, and see-through close to the shoreline of the yellowy-whitey tinted beach and would become a dark, deeper, richer blue the further out you went. If you were there you could feel the waters were mostly calm, undisturbed, protected by the large landmass that is Thailand on the other side, and were warm and hot enough to swim in even at 00:00 or 12 at night, when the sun was down. You might notice along the beach were tall and long in the dimension of height palm trees where you could seek refuge from the very hot, blistering sun.

I have improved the first half, mostly just changed to a consistent perspective.

>TFW I'll never be creative enough to be a good writer
It's over bros...

>>18353942
be a bad writer who chases fads. You'll make more money that way

>>18353654
I'm >>18353511 and I'd change >>18353332 as such:
>The beach was more than a mile long, it's sand flanked by an ocean which, while clear along the shore, grew opaque further out.

>>18353998
>it is sand

>>18353942
Ideas will come seeing them through is the hurdle that gets many people including me.

>>18354010
yes

>>18353942
Being creative is the least important skill involved in making money from writing. If "Good" means "can live from it" all you have to do is cruise the top 5 trending stories on RR and slap them together into a new one.

>>18350317
>>18350320

hmmmmm

How do I not be shit at writing /lit/?

>>18354288
by learning how to ask questions that can be answered

>>18354010
is a beach not sand?

Is there an equivalent of Submittable for foreign languages, ie, a service that lists all the writing contests, magazines, small presses? Or could someone smarter than me tell me how to search for non English magazines in Submittable

>>18354652
SHUT THE FUCK UP. Just use Royal Road. Self-publishing is the future. Just, please, trust me on this, OK?

>>18353998
that doesn't flow well. and there's too much emphasis on the ocean.

>>18354810
Sorry, how's this:
>there was a beach and it had sand and beside it was a not-beach and it did not have sand

>>18351314
I'll have a go, why not?

The beach was about a kilometre end-to-end. It curved slightly, pressing into the blue of the ocean. The dark and sullen depths that surrounded the coasts dissolved as they eased into clear, glimmering crystal the closer one got to land. The water was mostly calm, protected by Thailand on the other side, and it was warm enough to swim in the middle of the night. All along the beach, tall palm trees were leaning with the wind. Underneath one could find refuge from the blistering sun.

Lining the beach roads, and many other roads leading into the mainland of Cambodia, were electric wires strung up on poles. If an electric line would fail, it was usually not removed. A new one would be added, resulting in a chaotic crisscrossing spiderweb of wires, propped up by lanky, wooden poles that sometimes seemed to lean the way a palm tree might. Like two drunkards walking down the street each supporting the other from falling.

>>18354982
better.

I would like to hear more anons opinions on self-publishing via Amazon vs the week-by-week (though it may not be written on a weekylschedule) release on various onlines site like RR for traction.

While it's obviously disingenuous to disregard the content/genre of your work, let's suppose that you have finished something, you believe it is polished and prepared to be released. What do you think is the most prudent course of action in for book exposure and ultimately success?

>>18354684
Why Royal Road and not Wattpad, which easily has 100x more users?

>>18355450
>While it's obviously disingenuous to disregard the content/genre of your work, let's suppose that you have finished something, you believe it is polished and prepared to be released. What do you think is the most prudent course of action in for book exposure and ultimately success?
Posting it on Royal Road and other various sites for maximize exposure. Don't limit yourself to one site.

>>18355450
I would think that Amazon is obviously the better medium because you can make money. Yes, you can have a Patreon payment system with RR or similar periodic release websites, but it requires constant, active participation on your part, while a book is more "set it and forget it." Once you publish a book, you can get passive income from it forever. I've also seen a hybrid approach in egg people post the first two chapters on RR and then a "read the rest on Amazon for $2.99" message.

Amazon also recently made their own version of RR called Vella or something like that

>>18355494
name people that make a ton of money on wattpad

>>18355508
Yeah, but it's either publish it for free on the internet or go pay for view. Amazon and Barnes and Noble won't publish your book if it's freely available on the web

>>18355536
I don't know how much the top WP authors earn. How does this affect my argument

>>18355541
Patreon is the way to go now. Stop living in the past.

>>18355546
Yes, I've already said that that's a valid model. It requires however active participation, ie, regular schedule of material for readers.

>>18355544
the point is RR authors actually build an active readership, while wattpad is for throwing your diaperfur fanfic into the void.

>>18355557
Yeah, its called a web-serial novel for a reason, anon.

>>18355565
I'm skeptical of that argument, especially since another anon
>>18355508
said to post to multiple sites for maximum exposure. They all provide the same service anyway

>>18355570
Yeah but who's going to donate to your Patreon for 1 web serial. You'll have to write not only constantly, but also in one specific genre, forever. It's great if you can do that, but for most people, the Amazon route is better for making money

>>18355596
>Yeah but who's going to donate to your Patreon for 1 web serial.
People? You have people donation authors for only one web serial. Mother Of Learning is one example. The Author only wrote that, but still gets money to this day.

>>18350276
I'm currently finishing my second novel. I kinda feel stuck because I like it much more than the first, but at the same time I feel no need to write it since I replay it in my head all the time... and let's be honest, it's not like anyone is going to read some cringy vampire shite

>>18355614
Those are outliers, no? Might as well use the argument that selling your book is better, look at the billionaire Harry Potter lady

>>18355651
If you replay it in your head then that's more of a reason to write it. Once you get it out, you'll get even more and better ideas.

>>18355596
there's nothing wrong with posting to multiple sites anon, you're the one that asked anon "why use rr over wattpad", as if it was a dichotomy, he didn't frame it as one

>>18355661
https://www.patreon.com/DefianceNovels
https://www.patreon.com/nobody103
https://www.patreon.com/senescentsoul
https://www.patreon.com/RuffWriter
https://www.patreon.com/RhaegarRRL
https://www.patreon.com/Magic_Smithing
it's not about outliers, every single royalroad author in the top tier of followers makes money on patreon

>>18353332
My main character would never use "miles".

But other than that thank you.

>>18355675
I don't know whether it's a /wg/ meme but RR does get a lot of attention on this general. I've never heard it mentioned on booktube or among writers in real life, although the latter publish to the traditional book jew

>>18355694
That's great. We should also all become basketball players, because look at how much NBA players make

>>18355707
cause it's embarassing. royal road is the successor to the schlock weekly science fiction magazines of the early twentieth century. but if you can write a mile a minute you can make money.

>>18355716
except rowlings, although she is not exactly high lit, genuinely is uniquely talented at connecting with young writers, harry potter is a once in a lifetime phenomenon. meanwhile all the people getting paid in royal road are people that likely wouldn't even get the time of day at a publisher.

>>18355730
*young readers

>>18355716
https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/11209/the-legend-of-randidly-ghosthound/chapter/127131/chapter-1 I want you to read this, and then reflect on having called it the writing equivalent of nba level

>>18355769
It doesn't matter what the talent level is, do you think the top Only Fans girls are orders of magnitude sexier than the ones who make $50 a month? You can't extrapolate the top 1% of any industry to everyone else

OK I gave I worked it over, looked at your feedback, and wrote a new draft. Tell me what you think

> still very much a work in progress:

The beach itself was about a kilometre and a half long.

> (Someone asked me why the MC knows the lenght of the beach. I've written two suggestions that I'll post below, because I don't know if one of them makes the MC too spergy to be relatable)

Along the beach were tall palm trees where you could seek refuge from the blistering sun. The sea was calm. Protected, as it was, from currents and winds by Thailand on the other side of the horizon. This also made the waters a very pleasant temperature. In fact it was warm enough to swim in even in the middle of the night, as we often did. On moonless nights it was dark enough to see the bioluminescent plankton light up as you moved through it.
Lining the road along the beach, like most every street in Cambodia, were electric wires on poles. Every time an electric line would fail, they didn’t remove the old one, they just added a new one on top. This resulted in a chaotic crisscrossing net of wires held up by heavy wooden poles who leaned worryingly to either side. Sometimes it seemed as if the poles were supported by the very wires they were supposed to hold up. Like two drunkards walking down the street each supporting the other from falling.

> Why mc knows the lenght of the beach:

I knew this because one time I asked one of the local fishermen how long the beach was. He told me it was about one and a half kilometre. So, I ran from one end to the other and back again. The idea was that I was going to make this 3-kilometre run part of my work out routine, but I only ever did it that one time.

> or:

I knew this because one day, when I had time off from work, I walked the whole length of the beach counting every step. I took extra care to make sure each stride was about one metre long. When I reached the river basin at the end of the beach, I had taken 1547 steps.

>>18355781
except royalroad has higher demand than supply. and yeah, the ones that make thousands are literally just better at selling themselves, do you think looks are everything? if so, I could make thousands by finding the most conventionally attractive girl and streaming a recording of their picture.

>>18355450
A lot of royal road authors will remove an arc after some time and then publish it. Seems like a good way to get initial traction on amazon

>>18355824
They’re a minority. Some authors do both.

>>18355450
If I were desperate enough to self-publish, I'd rather start posting bits of a complete work on free sites like RR and Watpad to build a following. Then depending on Amazon rules either take it off from there to post a complete book or keep it AND also publish it on Amazon as the complete version.

>>18355799
The point is, those are the top performers, which most people aren't capable of. That's why most people will never pay in the NBA, be top thot, make top weeb author on RR, write world popular boy wizard series, etc, so it's disingenuous to point to those as an example of normal experience

>>18355886
>which most people aren't capable of
Average writers on Royal Road, who update consistently and interact with the community earns around 600-1000 dollars.

>>18355886
except royal road writers ARE the bottom of the barrel, you're not competing with the elite webnovelists, you're competing with incredibly shit writers that update regularly. if you update regularly on royal road you WILL succeed if you at all know how to tap into what the userbase looks for. there's just not that much competition, it's not like youtube or something where you swim in an ocean of talent where only the lucky break through, it's the special ed class where you get a trophy so long as you participate

>>18352109
It was definitely going to shit way before the second season
>Starts out as a grounded detective series exploring a dysfunctional, corrupt democracy being overtaken by rising extremism
>Ends up with exploding traincar shootouts, guys falling out of airplanes while they dodge flak, people coming back from the dead in 4d chess plots and they were nazis all along what a twist, etc
Also grunge music in the 30's somehow

the sun doesnt sleep, no more
honeyed chumps, choked or
drowned; bathed in basin
bare, a travelling salesman -
little Lucy: danced, squared, and
Downed.


Flesh echo, so dear, forgotten
in blue, Turn Back Time and
MEMORISE; touch, taste
the night dancer - no haste -
in barren, cold, dark, Lucy
Dies.


The clouds dont exist, no more
blue stars, stock in store, or
return - chumps cheer, He wept -
congregation: dear child, the best
for poor moon, left lonely, and Lucy to
burn.

I did this a while back and it’s been my inspiration for a novella and a sequel.

>>18355910
>there's just not that much competition,
Literally thousands of writers competing.

>>18355991
no. literally thousands of writers. literally tens of writers "competing". you need a certain schedule to be able to pop up in RR, almost no one that writes there does it.

>>18355999
Some new author that appeared two months ago has been writing new chapters for twice a week for two months now, and not earns almost 700 dollars. Stop making it seem impossible.

>>18356007
>>18355904
>>18355910
if this is the case, and erryone who puts out anything can make $500 a month, why isn't it flooded with the get rich quickers? Every chink has 100 gpus mining bitcoin, every housewife is part of Amway or some mlm pyramid scheme, every poo is publishing 1000 blank journals on Amazon

>>18356015
>if this is the case, and erryone who puts out anything can make $500 a month, why isn't it flooded with the get rich quickers?
Because, much like the pseuds, most writers don't write, have inconsistent releases, or are swamp with other responsibilities.

>>18355910
>youtube or something where you swim in an ocean of talent where only the lucky break through
Lucky, or corporate or celebrities that get easy boosts, because youtube wants to be a mainstream TV/Streaming service.

>>18356015
because it's hard work and 500$ isn't a lot? also indians and chinese people can't read

>>18356041
>>18356052
White housewives and military spouses speak English, presumably. They'll stream weekly on Facebook about leggings or makeup or weight loss products, so why aren't they doing the same for Royal Road?

>>18356015
Because a lot of people prefer to have a job. Or go to youtube/twiitch/onlyfans/kindle/other famous site.
RR requires a story that readers like, consistent updates and work outside the site to grow your readerbase and actually get paid because the site itself doesn't have monetization yet.
And the main payment draw, until you get famous enough to sell derivative products, is advance chapters for binge readers that don't want to wait. Because supporters that pay just because they appreciate your effort are rare.

>>18356068
because they're not into isekai bullshit? don't be stupid, not every hole of demand gets filled just because it's a decent way to make money(and rr isn't even that, the hourly wage is abysmal when you think about it)

>>18356068
>They'll stream weekly on Facebook about leggings or makeup or weight loss products
Because they’re doing their own thing? Why are you even asking this?

>>18356075
>>18356090
i'm curious; how does one actually promote on RR. Literally it just seems external references i.e. patreon/paypal and i know there is a infinitesimally growing level of support from randos on the internet to be all grassroots etc but is this just spam other's posts + anything you can find and hope you yoink the crap out of other people's subs?

>>18356116
they're not doing their own thing. They're part of get rick quick schemes called multi level marketing, in which they purchase wholesale products from the company and then shill on facebook to recoup their initial investments. It takes a lot of time. These women "work" 40+ hours a week in hopes that they'll convince someone else to join their pyramid, purchase wholesale products from them, and make them millionaires. They'll do anything that will potentially make them a lot of money if they can work from home

>>18356118
Well, it's Trending/Latest Updates/Popular This Week/Best Rated/ Top Reviews for site. Review swaps/shoutouts/paid ads on site for writers, and off site efforts. For readers it's often mentions outside of site, forum recommendations, going through reviews of a reviewer they like, or just using on site search.

>>18356122
Did you know that dressing up and reading a script before camera can be easier than writing a novel with consistent updates?

>>18356122
You can't be this obtuse.

>>18356052
>500$ isn't a lot
It's a good way to supplement your income though. Especially if you earn minimum wage.

>>18356146
>>18356172
You're clearly unfamiliar with the lengths that people will go to make """easy""" money. If I ever see writing shitty but consistent stories on Royal Road as a moneymaking method on blackhatworld.com, I'll change my mind

Wrote this 1,430 words short story. Hope you guys like it.

>>18356347
>Say that an author earning money on patreon via royal road is an outlier.
>Gets proven wrong.
>Insist that the dozens, if not, hundreds of authors earning money via royal road are the top tier.
>Gets proven wrong again
What the fuck were you even arguing to begin with. All this reads is that you can’t handle being wrong

>>18356367
that guy found the top 10 authors list on Royal Road and said see? so many people are making money :^)

>>18356382
>Author who only appeared two months ago is now earning 600 dollars and if he keeps it up will be earning a thousand dollars in no time.
Again, what the fuck are you on about?

>>18356394
He's a crab and is trying to put everyone else down.

>>18356394
You got me. The top x list on Royal Road -and- one guy? Royal Road is money tree for everyone. It couldn't possibly be that the money follows the classic power distribution, same as every other industry in the history of time. RR is special

>>18356419
>Dude don’t even try if you’re not in the top ten. You ain’t going to earn money.
>Other people who aren’t in the top ten are earning money
Jesus Christ. Just admit you don’t know what you’re talking about and are just coping at this point.

>>18356237
yeah but you have to upload an insane amount to get started, often 5-7 chapters every week

>>18356432
I've seen plenty of patreons where the monthly income is <$10. You're the one full of shit if you think the average person can easily get to the income levels of the top writers. You're no different than the scammers who promise big payouts for printing blank journals on KDP or mailing letter pyramid schemes

>>18356449
Just having two chapters a week is good enough. Maybe three if you want to give your readers a treat.

>>18356451
>There are area you have to take to earn money on royal road.
>Those who don’t follow them aren’t paid well or at all
>Those who do earn money of varying ranges.
Wow, anon. You showed me.

>>18356467
sounds exactly like a MLM's or blank journal guru's pitch

>>18356453
it's a matter of algorithms. the RR model massively favors and bosts authors that dump truckloads of chapters.

>>18356470
Jesus, you’re retarded.

>>18356474
Pretty sure RR changed the algorithms since a few authors were trying to game it

>>18356451
you're so fucking stupid. yeah, most people won't make money planting tomatoes, doesn't mean tomatoes aren't a completely reliable market if you do it the right way.

>>18356367
>Gets proven wrong.
Not him but where?
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/23/authors-earnings-fall-350pa-survey
Is a bit dated but I don't recall any breaking news about the trends changing.

For RR there are about 30k works in there, I have a hard time imagining even 1% of these make noticeable money. Is there any source for the shit outside of looking up the patreon of every author?

>>18356476
Average income and salaries for authors are already well-established in the traditionally publishing industry. Unless you can produce something like this for Royal Road, or any of the periodic publishing websites, it's expected that their incomes are similar.

>>18356505
if you can get traditionally published, that's sweet. but you can't

>>18356485
>most people won't make money planting tomatoes, doesn't mean tomatoes aren't a completely reliable market
Akshually it does. If it was a reliable market, most people would be able to make money with it. And sure, obviously some outliers will manage to make money with it, just like people can make money with their used underwear and toe nail clippings or reaction videos but most people attempting to make money with these won't make shit. Just like with self-published shit. Why would you give people false hopes shilling for this?

>>18356510
Your chance to get traditionally published isn't much lower than making a living from patreon.

>>18356511
>If it was a reliable market, most people would be able to make money with it.
but most people ARE able to make money with it, most people that do plant tomatoes are not CORRECTLY TRYING TO MAKE MONEY, OR TRYING AT ALL.
likewise, most people on royal road are neither pursuing nor know how to pursue the top spots. it's like talking to a brick wall with this guy

>>18356510
the third set of bars is for self published only. It's an old chart, but the median income for a self pub author was ~$2000 a year. A far cry from the ridiculous promises of $500 to $1000 monthly income

>>18356516
yes it is. the field of people trying to get published is not only a hundred times more competent than the royal roaders, it's also a much bigger pool of authors for relatively fewer spots

>>18356505
>I make almost as much as traditional published authors
Feels good to know that I made it, /wg/

>>18356540
link to your Patreon?

>Two acceptances within a week of another
Feels good

>>18356519
>most people ARE able to make money with it
But that's an outright lie. Most people make fucking nothing

Anyone got any traditional publishing success stories?

>>18356566
None.

>>18356540
I’m about to earn 900 dollars. Which I never thought I would get. So I’m a bit giddy.

>>18356564
most people make nothing, most people are ABLE to make money, they just don't pursue the path that would actually make them money, just like most people that plant tomatoes do not approach it in an industrious way that would lead to a thriving business

>>18356566
the most successful /lit/izen (who publicly admits to it anyway) is F Gardner so, no

>>18356575
So people could make money, if they just decided to make money? That sounds like typical wallstreet bullshit and you're beyond retarded.

People who farm tomatoes know exactly how much they can and will make, because tomatoes have a set price determined by the markets, and stabilized, known demand. Your writing isn't tomatoes. Not even a prophet can tell if it will sell or not.

>>18356578
I found someone from /lit/ who lives in my state who has 1 book out with an indie publisher; it was also shortlisted for a literary award.

>>18356540
>>18356574
I’m on the fence if I should quit my day job or just continue to write on the side.

>>18356591
I've told you the reality, you can decide yourself whether you'll accept it. it's not that people don't want to, it's just that people have the wrong approach. it's the difference between a home gardener and a farmer, the gardener will be lucky to get their crops growing, but the farmer knows how to control the conditions.
for royal road that is: know the target audience
know how to game the website
be able to read and write sentences(you don't really need this, some of the top royal roaders cannot construct a sentence).
if you have this, then you're guaranteed success so long as you keep a gruellingly high pace release schedule. the demand is NOT uncertain, your product does NOT need a gimmick or anything special, the site base will read anything that suits their sensibilities

>>18356525
>the field of people trying to get published is not only a hundred times more competent than the royal roaders
There is an obvious intersection between these. It's likely self-published fags previously spammed agents before giving up and most people writing to agents don't have a clue what they are doing and can't even get the basics like name/genre right. Besides, the number of potential candidates who could make it is much lower than from people trying it. Is being a competent author really harder than being competent at self-promotion?

I recall some dated stats about 3M works being published in Burgerland yearly and out of these 300k are traditionally published. So there are more published works than stories on RR.

Now the only tricky part is to figure out how many of the 2.7M make anything and guess/find data about how patreonbucks affect the picture.
>>18356575
This is just intellectually lazy. Most people CAN become millionaires, they just don't pursue the path that would make them millionaires.

>>18356594
yeah but F Gardner publicly admits to going on /lit/ and makes threads where he interacts with us and shills his book. Does your friend do that?

>>18356605
hmm, $12,000 a year. Probably could make more working at Wendys

>>18356628
>Seething at others success.
NGMI.

>>18356616
>This is just intellectually lazy. Most people CAN become millionaires, they just don't pursue the path that would make them millionaires.
except the path for rr is known, the path for becoming a millionaire is not(except for like, being a doctor. and just like RR, something being inconvenient is enough for people not to pursue it)

>>18356621
Yes, he's made numerous threads here, even in /wg/ in March this year.

>>18356633
it's true tho

>>18356614
>I've told you the reality
No, you live in a fantasy and can't even refute it

>>18356642
your friend isn't John David Card is he

>>18356540
>>18356574
>>18356605
>/wg/ is suddenly wildly successful
Did I wake up in a bizarro world?

>>18356645
enjoy failing to be published while I rake in the royal road minimum wage, moron

>>18356659
Are your books any good? Why should we care if you make money when art is the highest achievement of mankind?

>>18356653
yeah, you'd think that they'd also include a link to their patreons and stories. Don't they want us to support them financially too? Sad!

>>18356665
no, but some day they might be.

>>18356667
Pretty sure advertising in post is not allowed.

>>18356628
Yes, but being self employed carries some benefits.

>>18356675
lucky for all those patreon claimers, isn't it

>>18356667
yeah cause being associated with this thread is totally more boon than liability for someone reliant on their brand.

>>18356684
>users of a wellfare website will care where you browse
that doesn't seem plausible...

>>18356684
yeah, sure, you definitely wouldn't want people to find out that you post on a writing thread on a literature forum. That would be so embarrassing. Thus, you must keep your writing and patreon secret from us

>>18356718
why doesn't that seem plausible?

>>18356675
But people link their stories in every thread without getting banned.

>>18356724
most people see 4chan as white supremacy first and whatever topic they're discussing second

>>18356724
Not him but as soon as this one guy posted his book, everyone began making memes of him with a whip hitting black slaves. Anons are going to fuck with you for the sake of it.

>>18356729
most people don't even know what 4chan is

>>18356728

>>18356728
>Linking a story you can read for free and that pertains to /wg/
>Linking a site where people give you money
are you retarded? People here can't even post their amazon book pages without considering spam or getting ban

>>18356736
most online people do.
idk what to tell you, I don't have an economically viable story, but if I did I probably wouldn't post it here

the sun doesnt sleep, no more
honeyed chumps, choked or
drowned; bathed in basin
bare, a travelling salesman -
little Lucy: danced, squared, and
Downed.


Flesh echo, so dear, forgotten
in blue, Turn Back Time and
MEMORISE; touch, taste
the night dancer - no haste -
in barren, cold, dark, Lucy
Dies.


The clouds dont exist, no more
blue stars, stock in store, or
return - chumps cheer, He wept -
congregation: dear child, the best
for poor moon, left lonely, and Lucy to
burn.
.
.
will i make it

>>18356752
> tfw I bought two books from amazon when their /wg/ authors finally finished the books and posted the link

>>18356752
Bans last like a week usually, if not less than that.

>>18356765
It's a bit jarring to have some capitonyms here and there, but no consistency. The hyphens need to be replaced with dashes of some sort. Also, I don't know whom or what the poem is addressing at all.

>>18356776
it doesn't even make sense, since these authors alleged have a Royal Road page, which only has free stories

>>18356758
>he thinks there is bad publicity
NGMI.

>>18356792
Maybe they accrue a fanbase on RR then have other content for Patrons. Also, you can easily let people see RR content first before the others can see it. It's kinda predatory, but I can see how it could be monetised.

>>18356796
>“good publicity is preferable to bad, but from a bottom-line perspective, bad publicity is sometimes better than no publicity at all. Controversy, in short, sells.”

>>18356792
The problem is self promotion in a general sense, not if you're directly making money from it. To a lot of you zoomers and normies who've invaded 4chan over the past decade, the idea of self promotion seems like something beyond even examination. It's something everyone you know does in some way or another on the other social media you use. As someone who has watched the dynamic rise up online as normies gained increasing access to the internet, let me just say that there is categorically nothing more obnoxious than being inundated with ambitious social media turds trying to grow their brand and make it big. We are anonymous here. It's the whole point of 4chan. It's something to be preserved in and of itself. It's not some unbroached, fertile land just waiting for you to plaster yourself across it. We don't want that shit here.

>>18356824
> look at me, I'm so successful, I know all about writing and making money from writing, look at me, look at my money, look at me
> that's cool, can we see your writing?
> no, self promotion bad

>>18356796
>>18356806
If you two are anything to go by, no wonder /wg/ finds marketing to be hard.

>>18356841
I hate explaining myself to retards, but this is a point I want to stress. There is a distinction between sharing your writing completely socially anonymous and sharing your writing in some capacity by which ANY PERSONALLY IDENTIFIABLE AVATAR you have created could conceivably benefit from the promotion. Stop being dense.

>>18356844
Yeah I don't care about marketing. Literally should not exist under proper capitalism.

New thread
>>18356853

>>18356850
that's a perfect philosophy for someone who wants to talk up a storm but never deliver any proof of concept

>>18356854
>proper capitalism.
lol.

>>18356860
What the actual fuck are you talking about, retard?

>>18356863
real capitalism = freedom to choose products without influence or coercion
marketing = coercion, influence, pressure, using psychological warfare if need be

ur all losers lol complaining about being irrelevant and getting mad about people wanting to be relevant cringe motherfuckers literally just stop being absolute reject weirdos and write your story instead of bitching on this board
>>18356878
>>18356868
>>18356863
>>18356860
>>18356855
>>18356854
>>18356850
>>18356844

>>18356765
Why do y9ou faggots always keep coming here? There's a thread for your kind.
>>18330080

>>18356868
bost stories

>>18356894
Nice run-on sentence, anon. Go for a walk, you seem mad.

>>18356878
Yeah capitalism is much older than marketing. I believe in the ideals of the Constitution but there are a number of things the founding fathers could never have predicted. Advertisements were unsophisticated in their day, and less widespread, in large part due to the fact that industrialization hadn't started yet. Fast forward to today and look at the advanced state of marketing, a mechanism by which products differing in only the most superficial ways are given the appearance of meaningful distinction from one another by literal, unironic applied psychology. Advertising in large part creates its own demographics, with far too little regulation. Given that psychology wasn't even an established field in the 18th century and wouldn't even begin for another 150 years, how could they have ever accounted for it?

>>18356919
haha loser copies other loser on a board, literally classic 4chin, no wonder you losers stay virgins

What I learned ITT: /wg/ is full of people who claim to make lots of money and acclaim and popularity from their writing, but they never post any evidence of this, for reasons

>>18356935
You need better b8.

>>18356922
Agreed, anon, it seems like the only people capable of thinking their way out of this stuff are college-aged and have developed critical thinking, or just already dissatisfied with society at large, so it won't be changed any time soon. Depressing really.

>>18356752
>Linking a site where people give you money
I'm talking about linking the story that made people give you money

>>18356758
>most online people do
Define "online people". Everybody is online these days. Not half of them know this site

>>18356954
you literally dont have a rebuttal for the truth yet continuously discuss marketing and creative writing which you obviously have ZERO idea of. sad!

>>18356901
So you can use all that butthurt energy to engage unfairly with my writing? Would that help you wrest back a little of that illusory sense of control you lost over the course of this interaction?

>>18356972
>wont post work
ngmi
+
pussy bitch

>>18356958
he isn't linking shit
>>18356972

>>18356969
I'm a literature PhD so I suppose I care about quality and art rather than "creative writing" which is an overblown, bloated industry of bored novelists teaching literal retard undergrads, or "marketing" which is an unnecessary evil.

>>18356986
man, people on the internet sure like to lie about stuff but you do you bro, if it helps you sleep at night that's all that matters

>>18356989
Sorry you don't know anyone in academia from your small circle of anime weeb writers and failures who decided to go for Royal Road and Patreon, but I'm sure the money really makes up for being a schlocky whore of letters.

>>18356996
ah yes, the literature PhD student who always adhoms because they have nothing to say of any sort. Yes, I believe you, you most definitely have even studied literature at a collegiate level, yes friend, i must say you do ooze a certain, je sais quoi, perhaps your vocabulary, which is in no way limited by your excessive adhoms perfectly displays your PhD. Yes, sir, i can tell you have one and it is not a larp. Yes, sir

Why are you trying to derail the new thread?

>>18357019
Oh shut up, I'm enjoying this.

>>18356977
>>18356984
Alright, have at it. Just to prove that linking your work completely anonymously is fine, I'll post two of my stories. For the record, these are my only posts in this discussion.
>>18356972
>>18356922
>>18356868
>>18356860
>>18356850
>>18356824
Feel free to do your worst. I've grown some pretty thick skin.
>https://pastebin.com/QLyei3vA
>https://pastebin.com/8tv80EPy
You will never see me doing anything but asking for feedback on my writing here. I will never use 4chan to promote myself because I believe in the experiment of anonymity.

>>18357026
This >>18356860 isn't actually me. Must have misclicked.

>>18357013
>je sais quoi
You couldn't even be smarmy without missing a word, typing in that beta male fury. That's cute. I have no idea why you think literature PhD students have an extended vocabulary. Even David Duchovny was in a PhD program for literature.

>>18357024
No wonder /wg/ is shit when it has you in it.

>>18357035
you do realize that french people omit "ne"? oh, no, you're not one of those *giggles* monolinguists who can't even speak their own language correctly. I declare thee a fraud (and quite possibly gay)

>>18357043
Alright, goodnight; it's time to read.

>>18357055
sleep well friendo and good luck with the phd :)

>>18357041
Ouch, why so harsh? They're not stopping other anons from engaging in discussions.

>>18357061
Derailing a thread does that.

>>18357073
What exactly do you think we're doing?

>>18357059
Good night, my anonymous friend. Sorry for being a little touchy, maybe you struck a nerve with your multi-lingual, creative brain o' wit. I really don't understand marketing, nor am I sure if my writing is even readable for an actual audience

>>18357106
Derailing a thread because you fucks are petty?

>>18357128
I'm haven't been talking to those guys, just reading what they've been writing and now I'm discussing that with you. One anon posted some of his writings, I have opinions on those if you wanted to talk about them. You're the one avoiding discussion by not chiming in and only repsonding with hostility towards others trying to engage in discourse.

>>18350789
Your words have been marked.

>>18351466
Are you writing what you see or writing to describe what you see?

>>18352238
Good writing, that was a fun read

>>18357754
Writing to describe what i imagine.

Haha...

Where is the new thread?

>>18358511
>>18356855