/lit/ - Literature

>>18348305
If living is so terrible why hasn't Benetar killed himself?

/lit/ will deny it, but it's true: writing and its consequences have been a disaster for the english language

>>18348305
What do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is nothing more than information before the senses, data fed into the computer of the mind.

I LOVE LIFE, I LOVE LIVING, AND MOST OF ALL, I LOVE MY PARENTS FOR PUTTING ME ON THIS BEAUTIFUL EARTH

/lit/ will deny it, but it's true; Call of the Horror series and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

>>18348305
/lit/ will deny it, but it's true; the Original Sin and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

>>18348305
Is this a good book to read for understanding antinatlism? Or should I read something else?

There wouldnt be a human race otherwise to know it was a disaster

>>18348305
God put us here for a reason, simple as.

/lit/ will deny it, but it's true: peepeepoopoo.

>>18348468
Not OP or anyone but I've debated AN for days on end with people before and a lot of the gaps in my arguments are essentially filled by Benatar's book and ideas. I would recommend it.

>PAIN AND SUFFERING BAD

>>18348373
The rest of the quote makes it all pretty interesting and almost profound. Alpha Centauri is a cool game.

>>18348793
Please don’t post those anymore. Please!

>>18348793
>PAIN AND SUFFERING GOOD
stockholm syndrome.

what if I like living and the fact that I was born

>>18348978
dunning kruger

>>18348746
Yeah. To suffer.

>>18349101
>dunning kruger

>>18348316
He makes a distinction between already being born and not being born yet.

Not defending him, and I honestly can’t remember his arguments on why.

>>18348316
I'm wondering this also, but about antinalists in general. All this crying about muh suffering yet they don't actually do anything about it. Then there's all their crying about how God is evil for making us and shit. What a bunch of faggots

>>18348305
Suffering is what makes life worth anything.
Limitations give form, form makes things useful. It is the empty space inside the pot that makes it useful.

>>18348316
Because he is a coward like any other nihilist anti-natalist.

>>18349399
>He makes a distinction between already being born and not being born yet.
Why? If once you're alive you want to keep on living and life isn't so terrible that people immediately want to kill themselves doesn't that ruin his entire argument? How can he possibly justify continuing his own existence while maintaining an argument that existence is so awful that it's immoral to allow anyone else to be brought into existence?

>>18349457
But things hurt bro
Even art and horror feels like a joke when compared with the Majesty and brutality of nature.

>>18348316
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YjfRdMSTMM

>>18349672
Once you are born you are given a biological impulse to survive as well as various social relations that you feel obligated to. For example consider the emotional harm it would cause your parents. Overcoming your own biology and killing yourself is not a simple flick of a switch and I think that by treating it as lightly as you do, you demonstrate that you don't have any empathy for suicides or any interest in actually understanding the problem to begin with. I'm not sure why I even bothered responding to you.

>>18349764
>For example consider the emotional harm it would cause your parents
Not sure why this is a factor. Consider the emotional harm it would do for them to never have grandchildren. Antinatalism isn't built on muh feels, it's a cold rationalistic autistic assessment of the facts of a materialistic worldview and coming to the logical conclusion.

>>18349776
>Consider the emotional harm it would do for them to never have grandchildren.
Not comparable. Again you demonstrate that you don't actually care about understanding this.
>Antinatalism isn't built on muh feels, it's a cold rationalistic autistic assessment of the facts of a materialistic worldview and coming to the logical conclusion.
And that "logical conclusion" does not necessitate killing yourself.

>>18349776
The biological impetus to live and continue suffering is a fact of existence, not a "feel."

>>18349776
Antinatalism is built on the hedonistic presumption that all suffering is bad and all pleasure good. Essentially, it is built on feels.

>>18348305

>>18349782
>Again you demonstrate that you don't actually care about understanding this.
I already understand it. I'm simply pointing out that the proponents don't behave according to what they say is true, like all people who preach these life denying ideologies. Note that reproduction is as much of a biological imperative as survival is so if your argument is "Well you have a biological impulse so survive so it would be wrong to go against that" then how does the same logic not follow for reproduction? You've already made your bed. You say according to REASON we should stop reproducing even though biology says we should so then based on REASON this dude should off himself at the next opportunity because his continued existence is contrary to his stated position that he wishes he never existed at all.

>>18349782
>>18349794
>>18349797
They limits of ape mind to know the absolute truths without falling into the monkey bullshit of axioms, circular reasoning and infinite regression is enough is think that this existence is paradoxical monkey bullshit and doesn't worth all the struggle in life.

>>18349809
>I already understand it. I'm simply pointing out that the proponents don't behave according to what they say is true, like all people who preach these life denying ideologies.
Whether I behave in accordance to an a position is irrelevant to whether that position is correct. This is ultimately the only argument that natalists have as it's the only one they ever go to, every single time, over and over in these threads. It's a simple logical fallacy.
>Note that reproduction is as much of a biological imperative as survival is
Not comparable. Reproduction, outside of rape, requires the cooperation of separate parties. Also all humans do not reproduce and it has never been the case that all have reproduced. It's a common occurrence for adults to die childless.
>so if your argument is "Well you have a biological impulse so survive so it would be wrong to go against that" then how does the same logic not follow for reproduction?
I never said that killing yourself is wrong. I don't think that it's wrong at all. But I think that it is a difficult endeavor for many (most?) people for a variety of reasons, both personal and biological. This is part of my objection to procreation, as being born locks you into this position. You cannot simply opt out. The only way out is to break your programming completely and murder your own body. People like you will just laugh and act like it doesn't matter because you don't care.
>You've already made your bed. You say according to REASON we should stop reproducing even though biology says we should so then based on REASON this dude should off himself at the next opportunity because his continued existence is contrary to his stated position that he wishes he never existed at all.
Proof you don't care.

>>18349827
>Whether I behave in accordance to an a position is irrelevant to whether that position is correct
The fact you can't live by your own stated beliefs is a pretty big tell they're false and shitty. I never bother listening to anyone who refuses to put into practice what they want me to believe is true.

>>18349836
I don't want you to believe that you are obligated to kill yourself; you are the one who has come to that conclusion. So your statement is contradictory.

>>18349843
Sure you don't want it to be the case but it logically and necessarily follows from the antinatalist position. So your only options are to grudgingly accept the logical consequences of your stated beliefs or reject them because they reach a conclusion you can't accept.

>>18349865
It's not a logical conclusion -- you've made no effort to even convince me that it is -- and even if it were, it's irrelevant as I stated earlier. If you'd like to evaluate arguments based on the one presenting them, go ahead. You'll be just as illogical as you claim that I am being, ironically.

>>18348793
retard

>>18348305
cope. life is great when you stop living with such bullshit fake garbage like morality.

>>18349457
There are sufferings that don't produce anything

>>18349457
>Suffering is what makes life worth anything.
how the fuck is life suffering? lmfao

>>18349672

Will performing the deed yield the intended result?

>>18349457

Hence the Evil of life and the world.

>>18349797
>all suffering is bad and all pleasure good
Not every suffering is bad but not every suffering is good either, same with pleasure

>Suffering is good
The only sense in which suffering can be good is that it can make you stronger and thus capable of dealing with more suffering. This is circular.

>>18348305
Just don't be a utilitarian.

>>18348316
Because he’s a hypocrite.

>>18349764
>life isn't worth living
"Then kill yourself"
>But that's hard~!

Antinatalism is the stupidest goddamn movement on the planet, because the only people in it with any credibility have already killed themselves. Everyone else is just a coward rationalizing their cowardice

>>18350774
It's actually very successful. How many millions of children have been aborted so far? How many countries are below the replacement rate of procreation?

>>18349809
>Note that reproduction is as much of a biological imperative as survival
>not having children is the same as killing yourself
Bravo

>>18349532
>>18349440
>>18348305
the problem of the anti-natalist is not in the existence of actual human suffering but in their perceiving of said suffering.
there is, after all, no efficient, or even feasible way to determine the amount of suffering experienced by all available humanity.
the anti-natalist assumes that suffering always weight heavier on the scale than whatever state of being should run counter or at least is more beneficial to humanity.
but lacking any means of quantifying said suffering the only logical basis for the anti-natalist to measure suffering is by the perception of suffering held by people.
therefore it only makes sense that to decrease the amount that suffering is perceived is to decrease the state of suffering in the world.
the best way to reach this objective is to eliminate the populace with the greatest and most intensely felt perception of human suffering, ie: anti-natalists