/lit/ - Literature

I remain unfamiliar. Enlighten me, por favor.

>>18343596
Wa'alaykum as-salam.

I'm recommending this book for anyone who is interested in tasawuff.

>>18343601
It is great to speak and meditate upon the master.
Guénon advocated for capital-T Tradition. He maintained that all authentic world religions, despite their exterior differences, had a common metaphysical core (Introduction to the Study of Hindu Doctrines), excluding pseudo-spiritual and new age cults (Theosophy: History of a Pseudo-Religion, The Spiritist Fallacy). In traditional societies, you could gain access to this knowledge as well as access to higher states of being (Multiple States of the Being, Man and His Becoming According to the Vedanta) through initiation (Perspectives on Initiation). But Western Society had been undergoing a long process of degeneration and had all but lost contact with the Tradition (The Crisis of the Modern World, Reign of Quantity and the Signs of Times). Only the East had retained it (East and West). He eventually converted to Islam where he got initiated into Sufism.
This was not an exhaustive list of his works and ideas, but it’s a start.

>>18343660
sounds based! I'm going to order some of his books now.

>>18343660
Hmm. I have a copy of his works Crisis of the Modern World and Multiple States of the Being, but have admittedly never bothered to read them. However, from your short elaboration on his philosophy, I seem familiar with the Idea that a commonality remains intact through the variations of possibility of existence through the concept of shapes.

Has Guenon’s (pbuh) thought led to any significant discovery unto the origins of the possibility of existence itself and, if you would indulge me, what would be, if you could summarize, his reasons for such extensive deliberation upon these thoughts?

My thoughts are scattered. Apologies for the disheveled typing.

>>18343617
Excellent, brother!
>>18343693
Well done!

>>18343712
>a commonality remains intact through the variations of possibility of existence through the concept of shapes.
Guénon uses many geometrical analogies to illustrate his points. He compares the many authentic traditions to the points on a circumference, all equidistant from the center. The triangle represents manifestation from a singularity (the apex) to multiplicity (the base). The cross the explain thus: the horizontal axis represents a given level of manifestation with all its many fold possibilities, whereas the vertical axis represents the multiple states of being, of which there are indefinitely many, but which traditions usually keep it to three, seven, fourteen, depending on the tradition. The section of the cross bellow the horizontal axis represents the “netherworld” from the point of view of the level on the horizontal axis, and the the section above, the “heavens”. There are many more analogies and symbolisms. See Symbolism of the Cross, Esotericism of Dante and Symbols of Sacred Science for more.

1. Prophets sent to every nation

a. The Glorious Qur’an mentions in Surah Fatir, chapter 35 verse 24

". . . And there never was a people, without a warner
having lived among them (in the past)." [Al-Qur’an 35:24]

b. A similar message is repeated in Surah Rad, chapter 13 verse 7

". . . and to every people a guide." [Al-Qur’an 13:7]

2. Stories only of some prophets narrated in the Qur’an

a. Allah (swt) says in Surah Nisa, chapter 4 verse 164

"Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others we have not."
[Al-Qur’an 4:164]

b. A similar message is repeated in Surah Ghafir chapter 40 verse 78

"We did aforetime send messengers before thee: of them there are some whose story We have related to thee, and some whose story We have not related to thee. . ." [Al’Qur’an 40:78]

3. 25 Prophets of God are mentioned by name in the Qur’an
By name, only 25 Prophets of God are mentioned in the Qur’an e.g. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammed (pbut)

4. More than 1,24,000 prophets of God

According to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), there were more than 1,24,000 prophets sent to this world.

5. All previous prophets sent only for their people
All the prophets that came before Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) were only sent for their own people and were to be followed only for a particular period of time.

Surah Ali Imran, chapter 3 verse 49

"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, . . ." [Al-Qur’an 3:49]

6. Muhammad (pbuh), the last messenger of God

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last and final messenger of Almighty God. It is mentioned in

Surah Ahzab, chapter 33 verse 40

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things." [Al-Qur’an 33:40]

7. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), sent for whole Humankind

Since Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last and final messenger, he was not sent only for the Muslims or the Arabs, but he was sent for the whole of humankind.

a. It is mentioned in

Surah Anbiya, chapter 21 verse 107

"We sent thee not, but as a mercy for all creatures." [Al’Qur’an 21:107]

b. A similar message is repeated in

Surah Saba, chapter 34 verse 28

"We have not sent thee but as a universal (Messenger) to men, giving them glad tidings, and warning them (against sin), but most men understand not." [Al Qur’an 34:28]

c. It is mentioned in

Sahih Bukhari, volume 1, Book of Salaah, chapter 56 hadith no. 429

Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah: Allah’s Messenger said,

"Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind."

1/2

>>18343790
8. Which prophet was sent to India?

Regarding the question of which prophet of God was sent to India, and can we consider Ram or Krishna to be prophets of God, there is no text in the Qur’an or Sahih Hadith mentioning the name of the prophet that was sent to India. Since the names of Ram and Krishna are nowhere to be found in the Qur’an and Sahih Hadith, one cannot say for sure whether they were prophets of God or not. Some Muslims, especially certain Muslim politicians who try to appease the Hindus, say Ram Alai-his-salaam, i.e. Ram, may peace be on him. This is totally wrong, since there is no authentic proof from the Qur’an and Sahih Hadith that he was a prophet of God. However, a person may say that perhaps they may have been the prophets of God.

9. Even if Ram and Krishna were prophets, today we have to follow the last Prophet of God i.e. Muhammad (pbuh)
Even if Ram and Krishna were prophets of God, they were only meant for people of that time and were to be followed only for that particular period of time. Today, all the human beings throughout the world, including India should only follow the last and final prophet and Messenger of God – prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Source: http://www.dawahusa.com/content/If_according_to_Islam_messengers_or_prophets_were_sent_to_each_and_every_nation_of_the_world_then_wh.shtml

2/2

Muhammad is currently in the 8th circle of hell alongside Ali

>>18343712
>Has Guenon’s (pbuh) thought led to any significant discovery unto the origins of the possibility of existence itself and, if you would indulge me, what would be, if you could summarize, his reasons for such extensive deliberation upon these thoughts?
Guénon maintains that at the highest (or deepest, or inmost, depending on the point of view) level is universal possibility (pure potentiality as opposed to pure act, as per Aristotelian-Thomism), the sum total of all possibilities of manifestation and non-manifestation, including the possibility of Being. Everything that can possibly be, on all possible levels, is actualized in certain cosmic cycles (cosmic here meaning not just our universe or cosmos, but all parallel, superior and inferior worlds). The individual and human state which we are familiar with is but one of an indefinite number of possibilities of being.

Islam is cancer.

>>18343790
Islam is really the only religion which can legitimate be considered universal. Judaism for sure isn't universal and Christianity is dubious.

>>18343801
>Guénon maintains that at the highest (or deepest, or inmost, depending on the point of view) level is universal possibility (pure potentiality as opposed to pure act, as per Aristotelian-Thomism), the sum total of all possibilities
Wouldn't it be more accurate though to say that Brahman transcends all the possibilities contain within Itself, and as such is more than merely the sum of the possibilities? The way you are phrasing it makes it sound like he conceived of the highest principle as a vast collection of "saved game files" so to speak, instead of being a singular entity who transcends them as the origin of them.

>>18343660
>He maintained that all authentic world religions, despite their exterior differences, had a common metaphysical core
blehh sounds like perennialism

>>18343988
Perennialism? In my Guénon? It's more likely than you think.

>>18343988
That's straight up Islamic doctrine, all Muslims believe that.

>>18344022
Not exactly, while a Muslim believes all religions have had a prophet sent to them by Allah, they only believe that Muhammad is a prophet to follow and that Islam is the only religion to follow. While a perennialist tries to examine all religions and find the truth in them, even some later streams, after Islam, which would be strictly forbidden.

>>18344022
Muslims would say the world religions were Divinely revealed but got corrupted so only the Quran and sunnah should be followed in our age.

>>18344036
>While a perennialist tries to examine all religions and find the truth in them, even some later streams, after Islam, which would be strictly forbidden.
It's allowed to examine common ground with other religions but nothing overrides the Quran.

>>18344036
>He (Géunon) maintained that all authentic world religions, despite their exterior differences, had a common metaphysical core
That's Islamic doctrine which all Muslims believe.

>to examine all religions and find the truth in them
This isn't forbidden in Islam.

You don't understand anything if you think in terms of "ism's" and "ist's".

>>18344046
>Muslims would say the world religions were Divinely revealed but got corrupted so only the Quran and sunnah should be followed in our age.
Yes and Géunon is a Muslim. I would say that too, as I'm a Muslim.

>>18344058
>>to examine all religions and find the truth in them
>This isn't forbidden in Islam
Depends on your definition of truth, as any truth that deviates from Islam is the truth

I have a great respect for Rene Guenon but I am curious as to why he never addresses Orthodox Christianity. You would think a learned gentleman like him would at least have been aware of its existence.

>>18344066
But Guénon and other perennialists hold that all traditional religions are still valid paths to follow, even though most of them are Muslims. To me, no esoteric/exoteric argument can reconcile that.

>>18344079
He was a sufi which is like the Islamic version of orthodoxy so he was looking for the opposites of his own path

>>18344079
Its by far his greatest weakness imo, and I say this considering myself a follower of him, but there is plenty of literature around this, works by Fr Seraphim are good examples.

>>18344084
>To me, no esoteric/exoteric argument can reconcile that.

Ok so you are ignorant.

>>18344099
>Ok so you are ignorant.
Yeah maybe.

>>18344099
There's no perennialism within Islam other than the already accepted Muslim doctrine, like previous prophets, etc. Of you're a perennialist like Guenon you're looking outside the bounds of Islam.

>>18344120
How is it that you do not understand that many different paths can lead to the same mountain peak?

>>18344128
Cleanse your mind from modern filth, stop thinking in terms of "ism"-s.

>>18344135
I look back fondly now on Rene Guenon as my first real instructor in Truth, and I only pray that you will take what is good from him and not let his limitations chain you. Even psychologically, "Eastern wisdom" is not for us who are flesh and blood of the West; Orthodox Christianity is clearly the tradition that was given us-and it can be clearly seen in the Western Europe of the first ten centuries, before the falling away of Rome from Orthodoxy. But it also happens that Orthodoxy is not merely a "tradition" like any other, a "handing down" of spiritual wisdom from the past; it is God's Truth here and now-it gives us immediate contact with God such as no other tradition can do. There are many truths in the other traditions, both those handed down from a past when men were closer to God, and those discovered by gifted men in the reaches of the mind;' but the full Truth is only in Christianity, God's revelation of Himself to mankind. I will take only one example: there are teachings on spiritual deception in other traditions, but none so thoroughly refined as those taught by the Orthodox Holy Fathers; and more importantly, these deceptions of the evil one and our fallen nature are so omnipresent and so thorough that no one could escape them unless the loving God revealed by Christianity were close at hand to deliver us from them. Similarly: Hindu tradition teaches many true things about the end of the Kali Yuga; but one who merely knows these truths in the mind will be helpless to resist the temptations of those times, and many who recognize the Antichrist (Chalmakubi) when he comes will nonetheless worship him - only the power of Christ given to the heart will have strength to resist him.

>>18344078
Well, my definition of truth is that truth is objective and therefore not subjective. What I'm saying is that it is not forbidden in Islam to read any text or scripture from any other religion or religious tradition.
I've read some of the Book of Mormon, for example, because I was being visited by Mormons and they gave me a copy so I thought I'd try and get a better understanding of their beliefs, which I did.

>orthodoxy, the religion of schizophrenia chart has entered the thread

>>18344128
>There's no perennialism within Islam other than the already accepted Muslim doctrine
There is perennialism within Islamic doctrine. See >>18343790

There is a reason why Muslims are allowed to take Christians and Jews as wives. There are more examples.

>>18344151
lol fuck off slavshit
you damn well know that Guenon said the Western Tradition is Catholicism

>>18344151
Seraphim Rose was the first american ortho larper

>>18344135
>How is it that you do not understand that many different paths can lead to the same mountain peak?
To build on this analogy: Islamic tradition is very clear that after Prophet Muhammad pbuh, only his path up the mountain is valid anymore. The other paths have been polluted with the trash of its previous travelers, most notably Christianity and Judaism.

IIRC Schuon got around this by claiming that because Islam means submission to Allah and people of other faiths can sincerely worship God too, they're also upon Islam. But to me it's arrogant to go around the Prophet's instructions with a loophole like that.

>>18344204
Islam does not forbid people from following their own religion.

>>18344216
?

>>18344164
did you rike it

>>18344220
What do you not understand?

>>18344236
The fact that Islam quite clearly does forbid people from following their own religion.

>>18344232
I found it tedious. It's a fake religion made by a fake prophet.

Wait, this is me>>18344255, did you mean that it doesn't prevent non-Muslims from doing so?

>>18344255
You're wrong.

>>18344204
Read more Ibn Arabi, he talks about this using a metaphor. When the sun rises it blocks the stars from being seen, but that does not mean the stars are actually gone.

>>18344266
Islam does not forbid people of other religions from following their own religion.

>>18344255
Literally every muslim I ever met have no problem that I'm a Christian and none of them ever tried to "forbid" me worshipping Jesus as I pleased

>>18344269
>>18344280
Okay, was just confused.

>>18344287
Sorry, I though he meant 'as a Muslim'.

>>18344276
Where should I start with English translations of Ibn Arabi? I barely know anything about him.

>>18344319
Iv found this chart to be decent, apart from Barks translation of Rumi, as well as some of the stranger stuff near the bottom. For Ibn Arabi though, he is perhaps one of the most complex islamic thinkers, even to this day people are not in full agreement on what he meant in all of his teachings. My advice would be to read some introductory material on him, by people like Chittick for example, before actually diving into his proper writings. If you do want to actually get into Ibn Arabi himself, Bezels of Wisdom was where I started.

>>18344299
I'll try to be less ambiguous

>>18343596
>>18343601
>>18343660
I have yet to see a person samefagging in a more homosexual way than the guenonfag

>>18344216
It does not allow Muslims to force nonbelievers to convert to Islam, but neither does it allow Muslims to call them to any other din than Islam. This doesn't square with the Perennialists who say 'pick any tradition and follow it.'

>>18344276
I've read that before, but unfortunately can't find the source right now. Still I don't believe it means Ibn Arabi regarded other religions as valid paths to follow, but just that there is "divine Self-manifestation" in other religions. After all there's a reason they get outshined by the sun.

>>18344079
It’s a shame, but some have said that he thought Eastern Europe was too far gone in the way of Soviet communism to bother.

>>18344631
>Perennialists who say 'pick any tradition and follow it.'
No. You say as a Perennialist: "...take your religion (tradition) and follow that."
As a Muslim you say: "...Islam is the religion of truth."

These things are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I can tell a lapsed Christian to follow Christianity and I can also tell him that Islam is the only true religion today until the end and that he is invited to accept Islam.

Any recommendation for Sufism inspired short stories or novels?
I'm thinking along the lines of Approach to Al Mutasim by Borges.

>>18344079
Because he was more interested in the oriental traditions and he wrote more about catholicism because it was his native religion. Nothing mysterious or hard to understand. By this logic you could also ask, why didn't he wrote about the american indian tradition?

>>18344662
>No. You say as a Perennialist: "...take your religion (tradition) and follow that."
Isn't that the blind following of tradition that the Quran warns against? [Quran 43:23-24]
>Similarly, whenever We sent a warner to a society before you ˹O Prophet˺, its ˹spoiled˺ elite would say, “We found our forefathers following a ˹particular˺ way, and we are walking in their footsteps.”
>Each ˹warner˺ asked, “Even if what I brought you is better guidance than what you found your forefathers practicing?” They replied, “We totally reject whatever you have been sent with.”
Isn't it clear from these verses that the guidance of Allah is the only thing that should be followed?
I'd find from atheist to Christian to be a big upgrade too, but I would never invite someone to follow Christianity just because that's their "roots."

>>18344735
Which is why it's necessary to read the entirety of the post you are replying to.

Stop using the word "perennialism" or "from the perennialist point of view", etc. Just say from the point of view of a certain author, Guenon, Schuon or whatever. Stop mixing all of them into "perennialism", you will lose all debates in this way.

>>18344724
>why didn't he wrote about the american indian tradition?
Why didn't he do that?

>>18344749
What are you talking about? I responded to the mutual exclusiveness and to your advice to a lapsed Christian.

>>18344764
>Stop mixing all of them into "perennialism", you will lose all debates in this way.
Guenon and Schuon et al belong to the same perennialist school

>>18344773
I think we are in agreement

>>18344807
Well then.

>>18344779
Guenon never wanted to start a school of thought, neither was he a philosopher. I think that people need to let Guenon talk for himself instead of adding all of this labels.

>>18344814
Name my name, /b/

>>18344768
Because he wasn't interested in writing about all of the traditions on this planet. He wrote mainly for westerners and from the point of view of the principles, so you can apply them to all traditions.

>>18344819
Mark.

>>18344819
Luke

>>18344833
This, read Schoun if you are interested in in native american Tradition

>>18344841
Which book?

>>18344845
The Feathered Sun

Guenon would listen to this if he was alive.
https://youtu.be/D-51X4rW-7E

>>18344870
Noice

Books on how to regain one’s faith? I’ve already read Guenon. Now I want to take the next step and live the life of an authentic religious tradition, but I have lost all faith after overdosing on modern philosophers.

>>18345057
Well what is your faith?

>>18345057
Go to your local mosque, say the shahada and ask them to teach you the basic stuff like praying in arabic.

>>18345067
Based

>>18344768
>>18344833
>>18344841
>>18344845
He had books on Native American religion in his home at his death. He wasn't unaware, I think, but held what he actually mentioned in higher esteem.

>>18345057
Read the bible and pray to God to help in your journey of faith. God bless you.

>>18345088
This is true, also on african religions.

>>18344700
bump this, halal bros

My friend is writing his MA thesis about Guenon and Houellebecq.

>>18343596
Avoid Sufis, they lead you to disbelief and kufr

>>18345587
t. salafi dog

>>18343596
>René Guénon
I've seen him so much on here that I'm going to check him out. (What's the gateway text?). Is he punk-rock Schopenhauer or something?

>>18345587
keyed

>>18345625
locked

>>18345625
Would you really risk eternity in hell just because you want to call on your sheikh instead of Allah?
Remember that salafi means followers of the salaf as in how the sahaba, the tabieen and the tabitabieen understood the Quran and the authentic sunnah.
And not the understanding of a mushrik centuries later

>>18345748
>Would you really risk eternity in hell just because you want to call on your sheikh instead of Allah?
This guy knows what's up

>>18345748
watch this:
https://youtu.be/1MRXs5fqlXQ

Guenonchads, check out the documentary The End Of Quantum Reality. The main subject is a Traditionalist Quantum Theorist who utterly BTFOs seething hylics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Smith

>>18345748
>salafi means followers of the salaf as in how the sahaba, the tabieen and the tabitabieen understood the Quran and the authentic sunnah
so imitate people who murdered mohammad's heir and turned his caliphate into a money making scheme until they went so overboard with their perversions that a global rebellion overthrown them and isntalled the abbassids
got it

>>18345587
reminder that Salafism was invented by Anglos

>>18344659
Not quite, commies took the scripture, but maintained strong tradition still. It seems that what the tradition entails can be pretty flexible, as long there's one. Individualic protestantism dindooed real bad here.

>>18346033
>makes them seethe this badly
must be good

>>18346117
topkek

>disparages Buddhism
>converts to pisslam

kek

>>18346130
He approved mahayana buddhism and I am thinking at it as an option after reading Guenon.

>>18346130
>This smart guy after reading about every religion and other subjects converted to Islam
>He must be stupid because I can't get over my predjudices

>>18346130
Masallah

>>18345587
>>18345625
>"Muslims" fighting each-others on a haram board on the haram Internet.
Islam in a nutshell.

>>18343693
>sounds based!
Imagine responding to yourself because noody gives a shit about orientalism.

>>18346347
who noody be tho?

TRAD CHADS I NEED HELP
please point to me some books related to Art from a /Trad/ perspective
I think the COOM man wrote a book or two on it, anything else?

>>18346369
Titus Burckhardt, he wrote a book on islamic art and also one on the architecture of gothic cathedrals, if that counts as art or interests you.

>>18346400
i've been wanting to check out Burkchardt, it seems like the whole /trad/gang speaks highly of him.
I just learned that the COOMman's son was involved with SSPX and became a sedevacantist. pretty based desu

Guys, I read Guenon and I like his books, I also think that Islam is the best religion for someone like me, but there is one more problem... The majority of muslims are simply retarded, people like Ibn Arabi are regarded as heretics by the vast majority of them. All of this just gives me a bad feeling.

>>18346446
what's your nationality/race?

>>18346418
It's interesting that Coom jr. took the strong position that Masonry is counter-traditional (as did Evola)

>>18346446
>The majority of muslims are simply retarded
The majority of people are retarded Muslim or otherwise. The ratio of high IQ/ low IQ people in Muslims is the same as any other group

Guenon was the son of a negro. Thus much was known by many of his closest followers, but not many of his readers. This and many other shocking revelations are found in his unpublished autobiography, the Black Book (Livrum Negrum), set to be published by Sophia Perennis publications some time next year, which promises to question many of his most staunch followers’ assumptions and subvert expectations.

>>18346532
4/10

>>18346532
he had blue eyes