/lit/ - Literature

>>18317883
>Guenon is a mathematician
He hated calculus. Hey look I'm a metaphysician and I say metaphysics is fucking dumb

Cringe

>>18317883
based.... hylics have no legitimate arguments against him

>>18317883
https://discord.gg/Xwks29Pbfy
join guenonbro

>>18317883
He was actually a shitty mathematician who basically flunked out of uni math and seethed that Cantor proved advaita vedanta wrong, but Guenon provides no argument against it other than "It's wrong because it's wrong, you stupid hylic!"

Hell, even Guenon's Sanskrit teacher thought he was retarded and wrong about perennialism.

>>18317903

Idk a lot of what I remember from that book just sounded like a realist version on some ideas from intuitionism.

>>18319469
Who was his sanskrit teacher?

Okay I’m gonna read this tonight

>>18317883
>taught western philosophy for years
no he didn't, he never studied western philosophy, he had a really poor understanding of western philosophy, even evola criticized him for that

>>18317883
>I can read Kant then Guenon
prove it then, how can you negate the principle of aperception in favor of a point of view more on sync with guenon?

>>18319469
I have not read Gunenon's bok on calculus. But how would Cantor's proofs about the different cardinalities of the Naturals and Real Numbers imply anything about the Vedanta? I still have to read the Vedanta, but I'm curious.

Why is this nigga right about everything?

>>18320373
he was sent to us from above

>>18317883
there are no jews on the internet
we don't let our slaves use the internet

PBUH

>>18320373
> ultimate catastrophe
Christian apocalyptic sophistry
> will go on developing and multiplying more and more rapidly
Darwinian meme
This passage is a kind of justification-lite for the Great Flood.
the alternative is that the jews are the transmitter and the goys are the receiver
god is just whatever mental music calms the goys down

>>18320216
>But how would Cantor's proofs about the different cardinalities of the Naturals and Real Numbers imply anything about the Vedanta?
It doesn't, he is just a seething retard who in his confusion thought "muh X likes Z so Q which disagrees with X refutes Z by extension"

>>18320593
Cringe

>>18317965
He is a racemixer.

>>18320650
Also converted to Islam. Wtf is that why is he shilled so much here

>>18320373
Technological development has been slowing down for decades now...

>>18320663
Hey Peter Thiel
Development may be slowing down, but it is multiplying more

>>18320655
>Wtf is that why is he shilled so much
Intelligence agencies try to conflate islam with rightwing currents and that way undermine both.

>>18320671
Contradiction.

>>18320663
i made almost 90k the last two years on some made up cryptocurrency internet bullshit

COVID scientists and politicians BTFOd

>>18320679
Is it slowing down though?
Example from Apple on multiplying more
iMac ->ipod->iPhone -> iPad-> iWatch -> iCAR

>>18317903
No. He corrected some errors

>>18321026
It's schizo nonsense with not an equation or proof in sight. Guenon was in no way a mathematician he wouldn't even have been able to pass a calculus class

>>18320146
>no he didn't
private teacher

>>18320650
arabs are whites
>>18320655
islam is conservative

>>18320847
this makes no sense

>>18321074
All of Guenon is like that. He's a meme for a reason. Retroactive refutation indeed

>>18321074
>>18321074
It makes complete sense you brainlet

>>18321046
Ca' you explain why simply, I don't remember well. Besides is main point is metaphysical and he may not respect the customary way of mathematicians to express themself

>>18321093
It's metaphysical gibberish and has no math content at all. He was not a mathematician and he probably didn't understand calculus at all. He just saw them using words he didn't like and didn't even bother to learn the definitions they were using.

>>18321091
explain it for a hylic, then

>>18321074
>>18321083
The first time I read Guenon I was completely lost not understanding anything. I tried to get smug and shit but then I returned to him and something opened. I don't remember if I read something in between that helped. At this moment everything became light.

>>18321115
>CONTRARY TO THE FORMATION of an arithmetical sum, which, as
we have just said, is strictly analytic in character, integration must
be regarded as an essentially synthetic operation in that it simulta-
neously embraces each element of the sum to be calculated, pre-
serving the 'indistinction' appropriate to the parts of a continuum,
since, by the very nature of continuity, these parts cannot be fixed
and determined things. Moreover, whenever one wishes to calculate
the sum of the discontinuous elements of an indefinite sequence,
this 'indistinction' must likewise be maintained, although for a
slightly different reason, for even if the magnitude of each may be
conceived of as determined, the total number of elements may not,
and we can even say more exactly that their multitude surpasses all
number; nevertheless, there are some cases in which the sum of the
elements of such a sequence tends toward a certain definite limit,
even when their multitude increases indefinitely. Although such a
manner of speaking might at first seem a little strange, one could
also say that such a discontinuous sequence is indefinite by 'extrap-
olation', while a continuous set is so by 'interpolation'; what is
meant by this is that if one takes a given portion of a discontinuous
sequence, bounded by any two of its terms, such a portion will in
no way be indefinite, as it is determined both as a whole and with
respect to its elements; the indefinitude of the sequence lies in the
fact that it extends beyond this portion, without ever arriving at a
final term; on the contrary, the indefinitude of a continuous set,

This is garbage and there are 150 pages of shit like it. You can just scroll through it and see from the way it's written that it's not a math book even though it claims to be.

>>18321130
Did you feel smug when he said the secret ruler of the world lived in the hollow earth?

>>18321115
>He was not a mathematician
He taught mathematics
Mathematics have a lot of branches and not all are about making arithmetics. There is mathematical logic and philosophical mathematics.
For calculus there was indeed a difference in the way he explained it in contrast to Leibniz for example (and he quote him).
He also made a university work on this so what you say seems ungrounded.
Words have a reality independent to definitions you give. Hou can oppose yourself against some change of definition.

>>18321164
I guarantee Guenon didn't know anything about mathematical logic. Show me some paper or something that shows he had some basic knowledge of math since that book makes him look like an idiot

>>18321164
>Words have a reality independent to definitions you give. Hou can oppose yourself against some change of definition.

And you don't know anything about math either. The first step in doing mathematics is defining your terms.

>>18321158
didn't find him saying that
I got smug from all the : *says something important or interesting like "all modern sciences are degenerations of traditions" and then "but I can't explain it further here".
It seems out of the blue when you don't have background, understanding or if you don't see where he talks about that.

>>18321185
Read King of the World.

This remarkable book grew out of a conference headed by René Guénon, the sinologist René Grousset, and the neo-Thomist Jacques Maritain on questions raised by Ferdinand Ossendowski's thrilling account in his Men, Beast and Gods of an escape through Central Asia, during which he foils enemies and encounters shamans and Mongolian lamas, whose marvels he describes. The book caused a great sensation, especially the closing chapters, where Ossendowski recounts legends allegedly entrusted to him concerning the 'King of the World' and his subterranean kingdom Agarttha. The present book, one of Guénon's most controversial, was written in response to this conference and develops the theme of the King of the World from the point of view of traditional metaphysics. Chapters include: Western Ideas about Agarttha; Shekinah and Metatron; The Three Supreme Functions; Symbolism of the Grail; Melki-Tsedeq; Luz: Abode of Immortality; The Supreme Center concealed during the Kali-Yuga; and The Omphalos and Sacred Stones .

>>18321177
your definitions can be falsifications of normal terms. That is something Guenon opposed

>>18321197
But that has nothing to do with math. It's like a kid in school refusing to learn about imaginary numbers because they aren't real.

>>18321115
>Metaphysical
>gibberish
grow up

>>18321171
there is something else somewhere about mathematical notations

>>18321205
false definitions must be denounced because they are false by definition. Signs also, because they are profan and should be replaced with symbols.
It creates a confusion in logics.

>>18321224
*ahem*

>>18321189
Yes I should thanks anon.

>>18321246
Again you lack basic understanding of how math works. DEFINITIONS CAN NOT BE FALSE. They are definitions they are what you start from. You can make up whatever definitions you want. Math is following the consequences of the definitions you start with. Your math is incorrect if your theorems don't follow from your definitions. Guenon doesn't like the standard definitions so he's free to make his own. But that doesn't mean the math following from the standard definitions is wrong.

>>18321267
And being a mathematician means be proficient with the standard definitions. Nowhere have I seen that Guenon has any proficiency with the standard definitions.

>>18321267
>I name B what is normally named non-B
Not a problem at all of course, everyone can make his own definition

>>18321279
I think he reject some of the customary terms and signs.

>>18321290
In math you can do that. You can come up with an axiomatic system that has only a finite number of natural numbers for example. What you can't do is claim the standard definition of the naturals is wrong using your new system. Each system follows from it's own axioms. And probably no one will care about your new system

>>18321304
I think Guenon oppose that. He oppose modern mathematics.
That is, you can assume postulates for a system, but that not mean you change definitions.

>>18321189
>>18321263
Best Guenon book

>>18321335
So how does Guenon justify changing the modern definitions then?

>>18320373
a lt of people come up with the same idea at the same time, heidegger did a much more accurate and elaborate analysis of this

>>18321352
>changing
rectify to their tradition, metaphysically valid meaning.

>>18321364
*traditional

>>18321364
But you've changed the definitions and you're no longer doing math in the standard system. Guenonian mathematics as far as I know doesn't exist. And like I said above I see no evidence that Guenon can do any mathematical derivations at all

>>18321371
It's like me defining 1=2. From that definition it follows that 0=1 but I can't claim modern math is wrong because 0!=1 there. And people are going to call me stupid and not a mathematician if I say that

>>18321371
maths predates modern standard system. The point of Guenon is that modern math is a deformation

>>18321383
Modern math correctly follows from it's chosen definitions and axioms. Guenon has shown no evidence of being able to understand that system. Who cares if he thinks it's deformation of some Atlantis crap or whatever Guenon believes? That's the schizo part of his stupidity

>>18317883
this dude's work seems to be on the path of unifying analytical and continental philosophy

>>18321403
Guenon would have been enraged if you said that. Philosophy is a deformation of the primordial tradition everyone after the Scholastics is fake

>>18321412
know any good books about him that summarizes his works?

>>18321439
Not him but The Essential Rene Guenon, look it up.

>>18321412
no, hegel is based, you just don't understand him>>18321412

>>18321480
I trust Guenon and timeless wisdom more than some crazed german

>>18321496

>>18321224
Take your meds

>>18321453
was he aware of jung?

>>18321513
>Take your meds

>>18321480
Hegel is a bourgeois, romantic apologist.

The strange thing about Evola and Guenon is that they seem like hacks at first if you haven't investigated the source material they rely upon and what the language they use is actually referring to when used in shorthand, but the deeper you penetrate (whether into general history or the traditions themselves), the more they start to make sense. This is interesting, because there are hacks like Theosophists who become less coherent the more one gains a general orientation of history, religion and genuine spirituality in human civilizations. Their theories obviously do not mesh with history, whereas the opposite is the case with the Traditionalists (generally speaking, on the major points, they occasionally make mistakes like anyone would).
That's now become my main recommendation for anyone who wants to read (and importantly comprehend) either of them. Instead of "where to start with Evola/Guenon/Frithjof" or whoever, it's instead important to ask where to start in general with comprehension of the world, history, humankind and spirituality, both modern and ancient, and importantly from a multifaceted perspective which does not reduce human history to mere materialism, fanciful idealism/romanticism, or any rationalist historicism. It's also useful to go through the historical canon as well. If you don't attempt this it will seem merely like a lot of conjecture or fanciful thinking. These writers are end-game rather than a jumping-off point, unless you want to use them merely to start with a new perspective abstracted from most history.

>>18321567
>historical canon
I meant philosophical canon.

>>18321567
based

>>18321532
>romantic apologist.
on the contrary, he was a reaction to german romanticism, he said it himself in the first section of the prologue of the phenomenology of spirit

>>18320847
>mathematical certainty

>>18321614
That's what he liked to imagine himself as. Read his biographies, the man was heavily influenced by his roomies, Hölderlin being among them.

>>18321567
This is why Eliade's soucebook 'From Primitives to Zen' is always a good recommendation to show connections between the Traditions

>>18321647
read the first fucking pages of the phenomenology, he goes into deep detail on how romanticism can't achieve true knowledge
>>18321647
>Hölderlin being among them.
schelling was a lot more influential on hegel, and even then hegel roast him thru a whole section in his now famous "all cows are black in the night" critic, hegel wanted to distance himsefl that much from them,in fact schelling academic prestige never fully recovered from that

>>18320749
>> and why, with them, the most complete incompetence is seldom an obstacle.
I'm pretty sure the incompetence of the non-specialist has been the greatest obstacle to public health during this pandemic

>>18321787
this

>>18321760
>he goes into deep detail on how romanticism can't achieve true knowledge
Obviously, because he wanted his system to be the only system which could achieve true knowledge. You are very naive if you believe Hegel did not have a big ego.
>schelling was a lot more influential on hegel
Much of Schelling's fundamental presuppositions subsisted into Hegel's main philosophy. Schelling was the first, for example, to posit the overcoming of the subject-object duality, albeit his was more nature-focused rather than Spirit/Mind. Again, this is just basic egotistical infighting which you seem to have overlooked.

>>18321827
>>18321827
>You are very naive if you believe Hegel did not have a big ego.
i never say that

>Much of Schelling's fundamental presuppositions subsisted into Hegel's main philosophy
yes because hegel is schelling without a romanticist frame, that's the whole point, hegels is a response to romanticism, saying that he's a romantic apologist is basically wrong in every aspect
>>18321827
>Much of Schelling's fundamental presuppositions subsisted into Hegel's main philosophy. Schelling was the first, for example, to posit the overcoming of the subject-object duality,
wrong, fichte was the first one to do that on his attempt to overcome kant's noumena, schelling just changed fichte absolute self for an absolute nature more inspired on spinoza
>>18321827
>basic egotistical infighting which you seem to have overlooked.
this is just you making empty assumptions

>>18321827
>because he wanted his system to be the only system which could achieve true knowledge

every philosopher wants that

>>18321401
>Modern math correctly follows from it's chosen definitions and axioms
The issue is that they then try to make statements about the nature or existence of things outside of their constructed system based on these chosen axioms, even when that conclusion is not supported, such as thinking that since there can be multiple infinities because your math system says so, despite that even a child is able to understand that there could not he more than one infinite in truth, because if there was another infinite not included in the first the first would in fact not be infinite since the infinite is all-inclusive.

>>18321401
>Guenon has shown no evidence of being able to understand that system.
Ahem. You're also implying that mathematics can even be reliably grounded analytically. It can't and never has. It still falls prey to the same problem given by the Münchhausen Trilemma.

>>18321532
you never read a single page of hegel's or any german idealist right?

>>18322250
I have. All of them are bourgeois apologists. Marx (and perhaps Feuerbach) were the only ones who broke the trend, and one cannot consider them idealists.

>>18320613
No, Cantor's transfinite numbers prove that maya is real. You can't accept advaita and Cantor, which is why Guenon's book on calculus is 100% seething against Cantor but providing no real argument to refute it other than tautologies.

>>18322688
What I want to know is how Guenon explains away the fact that the kind of math he dislike functions perfectly fine to have real world use. Or does it working within maya not count or something.

>>18322725
He doesn't explain anything, especially what his own terms even mean. It's all question begging and "just trust me, dude, it's trad!"

>>18322688
>Cantor's transfinite numbers prove that maya is real.
How do they prove this and what do you mean by real? Advaita says that maya exists empirically as the contingent world. When Advaita says that maya is unreal they mean its not absolute reality (which to them alone is fully real) because its not immutable and eternal like absolute reality is. Surely you are not saying that Cantor’s math proves that the universe is completely unchanging and eternal, but this is what Advaita is denying when they say the world is unreal.

>>18322725
>functions perfectly fine to have real world use
he absolutely admits the practical utility systems like such can have, e.g in the case of calculus as a framework of approximation, that's not really the point of his work, which could be considered more like meta-mathematics, not some generic book about what people consider "mathematics"
it's the same thing with his criticism of atomism, it may sound even autistic and pedantic, but when Guenon says "atom", he really means ἄτομος in the original sense; people today still keep using said word to speak about things that they themselves don't consider "atom" etymologically anymore, even if they have some practical use
same thing with "number", once again, may be pedantic/autistic, but his criticism hinges on a strict use of this word as opposed to the analogical use of it made by modern mathematicians to talk about things like "transfinite" ""numbers""

>>18322086
Hmm, this seems like more of an argument of the definition of infinity.

E.g. the set of the natural numbers is infinite, but it does not include all the real numbers (also infinite). Maybe infinite is not the right word to refer to these sorts of things.

>>18323019
>E.g. the set of the natural numbers is infinite, but it does not include all the real numbers (also infinite). Maybe infinite is not the right word to refer to these sorts of things.
Guenon argues that those are not infinite but rather indefinite, and that if one actually gives to the word infinite its etymologically correct meaning, i.e. “the complete negation of finiteness or limitation” then things like a set of natural numbers are not actually infinite because its circumscribed by specific delimiting conditions that distinguish it from, to take your example, the set of real numbers, but the infinite is not circumscribed by anything and so a set of natural or real numbers cannot be infinite because they are circumscribed by delimiting factors, and they instead belong to what Guenon calls the indefinite.

Tried him and Evole, both seemed retarded

>>18323137
It’s just u

>>18321787
not sure if i agree with that, the ruling elite are quite competent in maintaining and bolstering the status quo that greatly benefits them. I do not consider the "scientists and journalists" that tow the line actual scientists and journalists. The majority of the blame rests on the profoundly retarded masses that cant tell simple fact from fiction

>>18321065
No, thank you.

>>18322886
keep moving the goal posts...Guenon is on his way out on /lit/...nobody is buying your bullshit anymore

maybe some Romanian will, but not real human beings

>>18323377
>keep moving the goal posts...
I’m not, any book on Advaita will confirm what I just said. What I did what challenge you on your claims and you were unable to substantiate them, so your claims should be dismissed as BS.

>Guenon is on his way out on /lit/...nobody is buying your bullshit anymore
Guenon will never be on his way out because his appeal is not based on the changing fads of the times because he deals instead primarily with what is eternal and immutable. He also BTFO’d modern philosophy.

>>18323377
You will be in your way >>>/out/ sooner than Guenon (pbuh)
That’s guaranteed

What’s great about /trad/ is the lack of fatties and trannies

>>18320749
>>18320663
>>18320373
How fucking stupid you people are? You don't follow the news?

Atomic Weapons? Covid? Alien leaks?

Guénon has literally been right about EVERYTHING. Literally everything he predicted in Reign of Quantity has come true:

>>18320700
Exactly. Even that was predicted in his Reign of Quantity on the chapter of "The Degeneration of Coinage"

And now they are going to be issuing CBDCs to be adopted widely by 2030. Cash will disappear alltogether, just like Guénon predicted.

The alien shit is another prophetic piece of puzzle that Guénon foresaw literally before the Ufo age or Roswell began

https://www.amazon.com/Cracks-Great-Wall-Traditional-Metaphysics/dp/1597310247

>HOWEVER far the "solidification" of the sensible world may have gone, it can never be carried so far as to turn the world into a "closed system" such as is imagined by the materialists.

>The very nature of things sets limits to "solidification" and the more nearly those limits are approached the more unstable is the corresponding state of affairs; in actual fact ... the point corresponding to a maximum of "solidification" has already been passed, and the impression that the world is a "closed system" can only from now onwards become more and more illusory and inadequate to the reality. "Fissures" (are) the paths whereby certain destructive forces are already entering, and must continue to enter ever more freely; according to traditional symbolism these "fissures" occur in the "Great Wall" which surrounds the world and protects it from the intrusion of maleficent influences coming from the inferior subtle domain.[fn3]

-Rene Guénon - Fissures in the Great Wall

>>18320679
Its not. He is saying were multiplying at a slower rate

>>18323066
This is fucking dumb infinite means not finite that's what the prefix in- means. The set of natural numbers is not finite. And the set of natural numbers is not indefinite it has a clear and precise definition.

>>18317883
>Is a mathematician
When did he get his PhD? What field of mathematics? What was his thesis on and which theorems did he prove?

>>18322262
lol no you don't, you don't know what the hell are you taking about, >>18321827
everything you said about german philosophy is wrong, you just read some thread on lit/ and it shows

>>18323883
> infinite means not finite
Yes, and Guenon is holding true to this in the complete and unqualified sense which is implied by the word, “not finite” can only be applied to that which lacks finitude, i.e. the infinite. If it has partial finitude, that’s not “not finite”.

>The set of natural numbers is not finite
that’s wrong, because the delimitation which renders it different from the set of real numbers is a limitation that circumscribes it (= finitude), more broadly speaking no “set of numbers” can be infinite, because the infinite includes everything, and not just numbers. There is nothing that truly exists which can delimit the infinite, because if something truly exists it would already be included within and subsumed by the all-encompassing all-inclusiveness of the infinite (which includes everything that exists) and as such it couldn’t be taken as something delimiting and circumscribing that infinite.
> And the set of natural numbers is not indefinite it has a clear and precise definition.
As I understand it he means this more in the sense of “indefinite extension” or “indefinite continuance” as opposed to “indefinite definition”

>>18324586
>>The set of natural numbers is not finite
>that's wrong
Wtf is the number of elements in the set of the natural numbers? If it's a finite set it has finite number of elements. Do you realize how stupid that makes you look saying the set of natural numbers is finite?

I love Guenon's work. I plan to buy all editions of his books(which I can find) published during his lifetime so that they are approved by him. The new french editions have dubious changes in the texts.

>>18324608
>Do you realize how stupid that makes you look
Check yourself before you wreck yourself hylic

Does the “the set of natural numbers” include absolutely everything that exists? No. Because it’s not everything but is a specific particular thing that is delimited or circumscribed by conditions that distinguish it from other particular things, it’s subject to limitation. Because it’s subject to limitation, it’s not the infinite.

QED

>>18324650
>> infinite means not finite
>Yes, and Guenon is holding true to this in the complete and unqualified sense which is implied by the word, “not finite” can only be applied to that which lacks finitude, i.e. the infinite. If it has partial finitude, that’s not “not finite”.

You fucking agreed that infinite means not finite. The set of natural numbers is not finite so it must be infinite. You and Guenon don't even know what logic is.

>>18324671
>The set of natural numbers is not finite so it must be infinite.
They possess an indefinite extension, but this isn’t actually *the* infinite, since the infinite includes absolutely everything that exists including rocks, trees, air, me, you, 4chan etc (that is, if you hold that these actually exist it does)

>>18324738
Are the natural numbers finite or not finite? It has to be one or the other. You already agreed that infinite means not finite. Are you reversing position on that?

>>18324768
>Are the natural numbers finite or not finite?
They are indefinite and hence are ultimately finite in contrast to the true metaphysical infinite which has no finitude. Modern math is wrong to classify them as infinite.

>>18324854
If the natural numbers are finite what is the largest number you fucking retard? There has to be a largest natural number if they are finite

>>18324863
>what is the largest number you fucking retard?
they continue on indefinitely (without an identifiable limit), which is not the same as being the infinite. Without identifiable limit = / = limitless (the infinite by definition can have no undetermined or determined limit/finitude, while the indefinite does)
> There has to be a largest natural number if they are finite
A set of natural numbers is circumscribed by determinations that make the set of natural numbers distinct from other things, such as the set of real numbers for example. If anything can be different from the X you are calling infinite, then that X is not infinite because there is something which is not X, and then X will posses finitude and wont be infinite; in order for X to be infinite there cannot be anything else existing whatsoever (not just in mathematical approximations on paper, but anywhere and everywhere) which isn’t absolutely identical with it.

>>18324863
You have autism

>>18324937
This is gibberish and just shows what I was saying from the beginning, Guenon is not a mathematician and does not understand basic mathematical concepts. The set of natural numbers is not finite. Infinite means not finite. The set of natural numbers is infinite.

>>18324950
That's the way math works bro. I'm sorry if it makes Guenon look like a retard

>>18324954
>This is gibberish
Which sentence specifically didn't make sense? Substantiate your allegations please
> The set of natural numbers is not finite.
Yes it is, are you yourself a set of natural numbers? No, you are not a set of natural numbers. Since even you in your confusion are forced to admit that you are not a set of natural numbers, a set of natural numbers doesn’t include everything, since it excludes (you). Because it excludes certain things, it is delimited by those things which it excludes, since it is delimited it is finite, end of story.

>>18325008
So what is the largest natural number you moron? It a set is finite you can count the number of elements in it. You're just making yourself and Guenon look dumber and dumber

>>18325008
>Yes it is
dude even a kid knows that the set of natural numbers is infinite

This thread is horrible /lit/ needs to purge Guenon. Jannies do your job

>>18324650
>Because it’s subject to limitation, it’s not the infinite.
that's not how infinite works, infinite means it doesn't have an end, but it can have a begging thus a limit, you just have your terms wrong, you're confusing "infinite" with "absolute"

>>18325025
>So what is the largest natural number
I have already answered that question, it is indefinite which means that it has no identifiable end to its extension.
>If a set is finite you can count the number of elements in it.
Not if it’s indefinite.

Answer this question anon, how can something be infinite while having something else existing which is not included within what you are calling infinite? This is what you are proposing but you are too scared or confused to just be straightforward about it and admit that this is what you are proposing. Until you try to give a rational account of how this can be so what you are saying is manifestly absurd.

>>18325098
only according to profane hylic math that was refuted by Rene Guenon (pbuh), wake up!

>>18325140
I've been over this again and again. Infinite means not finite you agreed with this. There are plenty of sets that don't contain elements of the other say the set of odd natural numbers and the set of even natural numbers. Neither the odds or evens are finite but neither one of them contains any element of the other. You know what finite means right? That you can count the elements up to a natural number.

>>18325120
>infinite means it doesn't have an end
Infinite means without *any* finitude, an end is just one type of finitude, beginnings are another type of finitude.
> but it can have a begging thus a limit,
What do you mean? A limit would be a finitude
>you just have your terms wrong, you're confusing "infinite" with "absolute"
I dont think so

>>18325140
>>If a set is finite you can count the number of elements in it.
>Not if it's indefinite
And if you can't count the elements in a set it's not finite. Infinite means not finite. There is no third option when you have A or not A

Is it pronounced Gway-non or Gay-Non?

>>18325164
>You know what finite means right? That you can count the elements up to a natural number.
Finite doesn’t mean “countable”, it means limitation.

>>18323891
He retroactively refuted Whitehead and Godel

>>18325196
So finally we get down to what this is about. Guenon has come up with his own goofy definitions which is fine. But he can't say the standard definitions are wrong. And no one really cares what Guenon thinks the definitions should be

>>18325190
>And if you can't count the elements in a set it's not finite.
Only if you are confused and think that “finite” is synonymous with “countable”, they are completely different words with completely different meanings in the dictionary. The indefinite is neither countable nor infinite.

>>18325204
>So finally we get down to what this is about. Guenon has come up with his own goofy definitions which is fine
No, Guenon holds to the actual meanings of words, “finite” doesn’t mean the same thing as “countable”, any dictionary will confirm this. I get that if you are a hylic who thinks of everything in quantitative terms with no grasp of the qualitative that this may be confusing.
> But he can't say the standard definitions are wrong
why not?

>>18325228
finite:
Having an end or limit; (of a quantity) constrained by bounds; (of a set) whose number of elements is a natural number.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/finite

>why not?
Because definitions can't be wrong. You can define whatever you want as whatever you want. I can define finite as infinite does that BTFO of Guenon?

>>18321403
Lol

>>18325244
That dictionary definition you quoted doesn’t say that the meaning of finite is “countable”, it says that its meaning is having a limit, being subject to limitation, as I have maintained.
> Because definitions can't be wrong
Yes they can be, because words have correct meanings and other usages of words aside from this are applying an incorrect meaning to it.
>You can define whatever you want as whatever you want.
And unless you are defining things by their proper, correct meaning you are assigning a false meaning to it and you are wrong
>I can define finite as infinite does that BTFO of Guenon?
No, you are just giving an incorrect meaning for something which has an established correct meaning. Modern math errs by assigning false meanings to certain words.

>>18325410
Can you fucking read
>(of a set) whose number of elements is a natural number
you're wrong man just admit that Guenon made up his own definitions then claimed the standard definitions were wrong

>>18325431
That is a derivative, situational use of the word as applied to set theory, to cite that definition which references set theory as proof set theory has the right definition is just circular reasoning. The etymological meaning of “finite” has nothing to do with the ability of something or something to count an amount of something, it simply denotes whether something has limits or is unlimited in any way.

>>18325185
finitude means end, a beginning is by definition not a finitude, again you're confusing "finitude" with "limit" you're mixing infinite with limitless
you have all your definitions wrong and making an ass of yourself

>>18325462
Bro it's the dictionary definition. Guenon made his definitions up. Saying a defined set is indefinite is just stupid

>>18325195
Allow me: https://voca.ro/14dn775C5dSP

PBUH
B
U
H

Hey /lit/ I live like 10 min away from Schuon’s old compound in Indiana. Should I check them out?

>>18320650
>>18320655
Thank you for alerting me on this, I was considering reading him

I like reading Guenon during the night.

>>18317883
Nice bait, you fucking faggot.

>>18325541
Same

>>18321065
>arabs are whites
lol
>conservative
so gay

>>18320749
Why bother with this when Pascal wrote about midwits (he even coined the french term for it, "demi-habiles") already and lived at a time where modern science existed?

>>18325533
he was also a freemason

>>18325477
>finitude means end, a beginning is by definition not a finitude
Cambridge dictionary says it means “limit or end”, not just “the end of an existing thing”. A beginning is in fact a finitude because an eternally existing thing can have no beginning for the reason that it existed eternally, if that thing which is eternal is said to have a beginning, then that beginning limits it and makes the thing in question no longer eternal because it didnt always exist in the past, and that beginning becomes a limit to it, something which makes it finite.
> you're mixing infinite with limitless
if finite means limited or subject to limits as the Cambridge dictionary says then the infinite is limitless

we will never have a decent guenon thread again will we?

>>18325625
Same fucking page where you couldn't even read down to the example sentence
>We only have a finite amount of time to complete this task - we can't continue indefinitely.
Finite does not mean indefinite. If you claim the natural numbers are indefinite they can not be finite. AND WHAT IS THE END OF THE NATURAL NUMBERS?

>>18320847
Holy brainlet batman. When your "absolute certainty" is btfo by a fucking ant colony.

>>18317883
Why would anyone want to emulate Eastern conceptions of living? Stacked one on top of another in piles of living shit where the biomass herd of huemans are barely conscious, treated worse than scum and every few years great cullings of the population occur where they get dominated by some small population nomadic tribbe of men who aren't such malnourished matriarchally whipped termites.

>>18325650
>Finite does not mean indefinite
I didn’t say they are synonymous, everything that is indefinite is finite, but not everything that is finite is indefinite. Indefinite refers to our inability to establish the exact limits of particular things

I’m reading east and west right now. I kind of want to study Vedanta shit because I want to get into Guido de Giorgio

>>18324649
> The new french editions have dubious changes in the texts

Like what?

>>18325678
because we dislike modern western way of thinking, including egalitarianism

>>18325681
>I didn’t say they are synonymous
No shit they aren't synonyms read the fucking example sentence. If something is finite it can't be indefinite. You yourself have said the set of natural numbers is indefinite so that means its not finite which means its infinite.

Perennialism is idiotic and self contradictory why do people listen to this guy again?

>>18325485
BASED

>>18323723
>That fucking book
I will never again make fun of anyone who says UFOs are jinns/demons. Forgive me guys.

>>18325746
why do you care?

>>18325485

>>18325506
Do so and report back

>>18325506
>>18325757
Make a vlog

>>18325743
>You yourself have said the set of natural numbers is indefinite so that means its not finite
That we cannot detect a measurable end of that set of numbers does not make it infinite, it only means its a finite thing which extends beyond our capability or measuring.

>>18325874
Gah read the whole fucking thing you goddamm retard.
>We only have a finite amount of time to complete this task - we can't continue indefinitely.
That's the example sentence in the definition that YOU cited. From that sentence SOMETHING FINITE CAN'T BE INDEFINITE. IF THE NATURAL NUMBERS ARE INDEFINITE THEY CAN'T BE FINITE.

>>18325667
Ant colonies are nothing without their queen.

>>18325678
Guenon does not seek that, as he acknowledges Westerners are different from Easterners. He considers the Middle Ages to be the last time the West had a traditional civilization (which means one that proceeds from the higher metaphysical principles). Neither does this mean he wants to turn back time, nor does he believe such a thing is possible. Rather, he believes it is necessary for a spiritual elite to maintain knowledge of the eternal truth, which will be the seed that ushers in the next Golden Age when Kali Yuga ends and the next manvantara begins. Life then will be egalitarian (only one caste in Satya Yuga), but only because men will genuinely all have attained the same zenith of spiritual development.

>>18325746
Perennialism is as old as the parable of the blind men and the elephant. That's probably the best way to understand what they are saying.

>>18325625
>using descriptive dictionaries for technical terms
ngmi

>>18326008
>Rather, he believes it is necessary for a spiritual elite to maintain knowledge of the eternal truth, which will be the seed that ushers in the next Golden Age when Kali Yuga ends and the next manvantara begins
How does he reconcile that with the Islamic belief in Judgment Day after which everyone will be in hell or heaven?

>>18326048
>>18325746

>>18325625
you're using the semantic definition not the mathematical one, as a matter of fact finitude in some languages means with a beginning but without an end, that's why you need to use the mathematical term and not the semantical one, which is much more unreliable

>>18326048
Don't know if he addressed this directly, but he did make a general comment that all contradictions and dualisms we come across in anything, are in fact strictly contingent upon our limited point of view, and from the perspective of the absolute, there are no such things. See pic.

Though pic is depicting a monism, while Guenon was talking about non-dualism. So imagine the pic with no cylinder, but the shadows still there, I guess.

>>18321115
Anons in this thread are being fucking retarded
You're right

>>18326168
Actually, I think non-dualism is not "no cylinder": it's that you are the cylinder. And infinite. And it's not a monism because there is no POV outside the infinite that would allow you to proclaim it is one.

>>18326194
No. "Infinite" was the wrong word to denote something bounded.

>>18326227
You're literally proving him right lol
>He just saw them using words he didn't like and didn't even bother to learn the definitions they were using.

>>18324315
guenonfags love to pretend they're well read and instructed in all kind of intellectual disciplines when in reality all they have is a shallow understanding of those issues and remain trapped in their own machinations and false notions of reality, just like their daddy guenon

>>18326294
Seething

>>18317883
I think about this nigga everyday

>>18326443
cringe

>>18327569
Cope

>>18317883
He's pure cringe.

>>18327593
you'll never be a woman

>>18327929
sneed

>>18328505
keep seething

>>18328754
keep sneeding

>>18325936
Not true, just another disposable small part that replaces itself on removal.

>>18317883
There wasn't one single day in the last 6 months when I didn't think of Guenon.

>>18329083
Same. Lately I have been thinking about the Crisis of the Modern World

>>18329083
Guenon would've wanted you to replace that remembrance of him with the remembrance of Him.

>>18329477
Based

>>18329477
No. Guenon is simply a means to the Almighty. Thanking and thinking of Guenon daily for his great works is based

>filtered by the last chapters of symbolism of the cross AGAIN

>>18321091
This whole image board is totally empty of any hierarchy.
If you apply what he said: "the greater cannot proceed from the lesser," What is it supposed to mean? That 4chan is useless? That only those who have "authority" here (jannies?) can be of use?

>>18330791
You wouldn't listen to 4chan's consensus, especially for major decisions.

>>18330791
Excellent analogy anon
If you are wanting to enter the Jannie caste, you are selected and initiated from above (mods). It is not anons who get to pick the jannies on some voting system.
Gabish?

Absolute gibberish

>>18323313
Yes they are, you amerifatt. They are not european but a mixed race close to whites.
>>18325565
I used a term you could understand

>>18333662
>Arabs
>white
Lol never

>>18333666
>those digits

>racemixing horse-looking frog-forking robe-wearing mustache-bearing son of a gun

>>18320650
brainlet

It starts out with a Frenchmen in Paris who watches Napolean conduct a rally before setting off to Waterloo. Invigorated by the emperor's assurance of victory, he later bears a son hoping he could follow in his footsteps and become a renowned architect who would fashion skyscrapers that rivaled Gustave's masterpiece, the Eiffel tower. Unfortunately the Grandest of all Architects bestowed upon our hero a disproportionate facial structure which would haunt him most of his life. In a cruel twist of fate, this apish aesthetic would only be matched by our hero's mark of lineage: Guenon (monkey).

The first act has him enrolling into Catholic school where he excelled in mathematics. He would however be bullied by his classmates to no end, driving him to dark places. Everyday he walked up the entrance of the city's hall and gazed upon the words of the building 'Liberté, égalité, fraternité'. Troubled by this adage was he, for how what is brotherhood among his tormentors? What is equality among his disfigurement? What is liberty among the prison of outward appearance?

'No more' he utters.

In the second act, he drops his previous ambitions and begins a new path. A path that would bring meaning into his world and answer the question: Why the long face? He delved into the Occult where he worshipped Satan himself. This though, still had him hungry for more. He went on to Gnosticism and then embarked on a study of Oriental traditions. Ever so close did he come to true nature of his being, he needed a spark. That spark would be in the form Theosophy. Guenon snuck into a grim mansion owned by Blavatsky in order to request the ultimate meaning. To his amazement, Blavatsky herself was summoned directly in front of him. She challenged him in a cosmic debate, to which Guenon agreed. Unable to outwit her, he concedes and tells her that he will leave immediately. However, he cunningly pilfers her sacred scrolls on his way out. Guenon knew what had to be done and modeled his ideas and framework after Blavatsky's stolen texts. This would later be known as Traditionalist School.

In the final act, he was greeted by Sufi spiritual leaders who were impressed by his analysis of Shankarian texts. They urged him to move to Cairo and join their order. However he would have to know for certain if this would be the right decision. He climbed the peak of the Eiffel tower, for elevators are modern inventions, and pleaded with God 'why have thou made me look like this O Creator'. God revealed himself and spoke unto him thus: 'I have made you monke because only you have the power to return to monke'. It was right then that Guenon came to the conclusion that western society will never be saved so long as they have proportional faces. Guenon realized that Cairo may be the only escape from this western hellish nightmare. And it was. For Guenon, Cairo was the promised land he was searching for all those years and for good reason: They looked like him.

>>18333795
Based af

>>18333795

>>18317883

>>18333795
Dumb

>>18333666
>333
Trinity
>666
Devil
>18
3*6

>>18333666
Anyway it's close to white. Arabs are no a race in themself but a mix.

>>18333972
If a fucking goat fucking sand nigger is white who the fuck isn't? Is Africa the white homeland?

>>18333992
asians, africans, amerindians. Arabs are just not a special race.
Guénon didn't racemix, has he would have not if a married with a women from another ethnicity like slavish, or armenian,...
Can you understand ? Or do you want to keep your simplistic and self-centered amerifat way ?

>>18334168
>Or do you want to keep your simplistic and self-centered amerifat way ?

This is the Amerifat way. You have to obliterate a multitude of Ethnicites both within France and North Africa to make your untenable categories "work".
Your argument is universalizing bullshit of a purely modernist kind.

>>18334196
Seething sandnigger

>>18334196
>Ethnicites
Learn the difference between ethnicity and race.
Some categories are more general than others.

>>18334196

>>18333992
its so funny seeing racists trying to squeeze their brains to produce even an inkling of validity in their rhetorical harangue.

>>18323313
>>18325565
>>18320650

>>18333795
kek

>>18334269
Are Jews white?

>>18334377
Yes.