/lit/ - Literature

>>18315215
goethe didn't believe in god (/being) , he just didn't care. he was interested in nature, the phenomena, and that's all. and he never held christ for "problematical", this was his overall opinion on the matter:
> Lots of things I can stomach. Most of what irks me I take in my stride, as a god might command me. But four things I hate more than poisons & vipers: tobacco smoke, garlic, bedbugs, and Christ.

>>18315215
>who held Christ for problematical, but the good God for wholly proven
So he's a jew

>>18315242
>garlic
What a basedboy

>>18315257
(you)

>>18315331
(Jew)

>>18315242
>>18315257
>>18315301
Goethe was balanced by Schiller in all things, and vice versa. As for this, Schiller was a follower of Christ, but not of the "Father".

>If one would lay hand on the characteristic mark of Christianity, distinguishing it from all mono-theistic religions, it lies in nothing less than the upheaval of Law, of Kant's 'Imperative,' in whose place it sets free Inclination. In its own pure form it therefore is the presentation of a beautiful morality, or of the humanising of the Holy; and in this sense it is the only æsthetic religion.
- Letter from Schiller to Goethe

>>18315343
lol schiller was a diderotian athiest, retard. goethe didn't "believe in god", but he had a magical/dynamic conception of nature, schiller on the other hand was basically a mechanist.

>>18315215
It’s so funny that all the most intelligent people in history rejected the notion of the Christian God.

>>18315355
>schiller was a diderotian athiest,
>goethe didn't "believe in god",
>schiller on the other hand was basically a mechanist.
These are all wrong, though depending on what you mean by atheist, it doesn't go against what I said.

>>18315416
Who said they were the most intelligent?

>>18315215
What a buttblasted christcuck.
I think he never read Schopenhauer.

>>18315418
read less prayer books and more goethe, moron.

>>18315416
Wagner is here merely agreeing with Schleiermacher's thesis that the essence of religion lies in feeling. He's by no means rejecting the notion of Christ.

>>18315434
You've never read Goethe in your life.

>>18315436
Wagner was an atheist

>>18315466
wagner was a fanatical christian. nietzsche broke with him in sorrento when wagner started blabbering about his visions of the cross/the grail/holy mary.

>>18315416
people who post these hideous laughing pepes never have anything intelligent to say.

>>18315478
>Nietzsche broke with Wagner because Wagner became Christian
>Nietzsche lost his respect for Wagner
If you believe either of these you were filtered by Nietzsche.

>>18315511
nietzsche said it like one hundred times in his books (der fall wagner, nietzsche contra wagner) and letters, you christcuck schitzo.

>>18315215
Goethe was a hardcore Spinozist.

>>18315215
Ah sweet, another Wagner thread

>>18315568
Imagine getting filtered by Nietzsche.

>Famously, in his published writing Nietzsche sets up Bizet against Wagner, declares Carmen to be the greatest of all operas, and compares its music favourably with Wagner's in a certain amount of detail. But he does not believe this either. Privately, in a letter to a friend he writes: 'What I say about Bizet, you should not take seriously the way I am, Bizet does not matter at all to me. But as an ironic antithesis to Wagner, it has a strong effect' (27 December 1888). It does indeed, and has been quoted ever since. We begin to realise who, as between Nietzsche and Wagner, is the actor, the master of insincere effect. As for Wagner the man, although Nietzsche heaped almost incredible public abuse on his head ('Is Wagner a human being at all? Isn't he rather a sickness?' — this remark in The Wagner Case is representative of dozens such to be found in his writings) he never, in spite of himself, lost a vivid sense of Wagner's greatness. In the last year of his effective life he wrote to a friend: 'Wagner himself, as man, as animal, as God and artist, surpasses a thousand times the understanding and the incomprehension of our Germans. Whether it is the same with the French I do not know.' (26 February 1888).

>>18315242
Huh, why did he dislike Christ?

>>18315242
>hates Christ and garlic
Was he a vampire?

>>18315649
indeed nietzsche didn't broke with wagner for reasons inherent to his music, but for his christianity. nietzsche says it many times, and everyone knew it. even anton webern , the composer, at the beginnig of his "path to new music", mentions it. so you are reporting very common knowledge.

>>18315667
because christianity is a religion openly hostile to the phenomena, and goethe was a phenomenalist.
> Search nothing beyond the phenomena, they themselves are the theory

>>18315671
Nietzsche literally credits Parsifal's music for being psychologically complex enough to give a Christian answer to the world. Or was Nietzsche not including Parsifal?

>>18315687
all nietzsche says about parsifal is "it's more liszt than wagner". he hated and despised that opera, pseud

>>18315581
Spinoza wasn't an atheist

>>18315693
>When I see you again, I shall tell you exactly what I then understood. Putting aside all irrelevant questions (to what end such music can or should serve?), and speaking from a purely aesthetic point of view, has Wagner ever written anything better? The supreme psychological perception and precision as regards what can be said, expressed, communicated here, the extreme of concision and directness of form, every nuance of feeling conveyed epigrammatically; a clarity of musical description that reminds us of a shield of consummate workmanship; and finally an extraordinary sublimity of feeling, something experienced in the very depths of music, that does Wagner the highest honour; a synthesis of conditions which to many people - even "higher minds" - will seem incompatible, of strict coherence, of "loftiness" in the most startling sense of the word, of a cognisance and a penetration of vision that cuts through the soul as with a knife, of sympathy with what is seen and shown forth. We get something comparable to it in Dante, but nowhere else. Has any painter ever depicted so sorrowful a look of love as Wagner does in the final accents of his Prelude?
>I cannot think of it without feeling violently shaken, so elevated was I by it, so deeply moved. It was as if someone were speaking to me again, after many years, about the problems that disturb me - naturally not supplying the answers I would give, but the Christian answer, which after all has been the answer of stronger souls than the last two centuries of our era have produced. When listening to this music one lays Protestantism aside as a misunderstanding - and also, I will not deny it, other really good music, which I have at other times heard and loved, seems, as against this, a misunderstanding!

Nietzsche only heard the music very late in life, and had relied on the libretto for his complete understanding of the work until then.

>>18315667
>>18315670
Vieles kann ich ertragen. Die meisten beschwerlichen Dinge
Duld ich mit ruhigem Mut, wie es ein Gott mir gebeut.
Wenige sind mir jedoch wie Gift und Schlange zuwider;
Viere: Rauch des Tabaks, Wanzen und Knoblauch und †

in other words, the cross, not christ himself

>>18315215
test

>>18315717
he is talking about wagner's "art of seduction"
> In the art of seduction, Parsifal will always retain its rank - as the stroke of genius in seduction. - I admire this work; I wish I had written it myself; failing that, I understand it. - Wagner never had better inspirations than in the end. Here the cunning in his alliance of beauty and sickness goes so far that, as it were, it casts a shadow over Wagner's earlier art - which now seems too bright, too healthy. Do you understand this? Health, brightness having the effect of a shadow? almost of an objection? - To such an extent have we become pure fools. - Never was there a greater master in dim, hieratic aromas - never was a man equally expert in all small infinities, all that trembles and is effusive, all the feminisms from the idioticon of happiness! - Drink, O my friends, the philtres of this art! Nowhere will you find a more agreeable way of enervating your spirit, of forgetting your manhood under a rosebush. - Ah, this old magician! This Klingsor of all Klingsors! How he thus wages war against us! us, the free spirits! How he indulges every cowardice of the modern soul with the tones of magic maidens! - Never before has there been such a deadly hatred of the search for knowledge! - One has to be a cynic in order not to be seduced here; one has to be able to bite in order not to worship here. Well, then, you old seducer, the cynic warns you - cave canem.

also wagner was among the first ones to play and hear the piano transcription which wagner sent him.
again, nietzsche broke with wagner due to wagner's christianity, not for his music. accept it.

>>18315747
Firstly, what I have posted is clearly more than "it's more liszt than wagner", and secondly Nietzsche is here clearly praising Wagner's music's ability to give expression to his Christian beliefs. Nietzsche broke with Wagner for more personal reasons, and he never ceased to love him.

>>18315753
when nietzsche said "more liszt than wagner" he was referring to the opera's (christian) themes and aims, when he "praises" it he is talking about wagner's technical skills. it's pretty clear.
nietzsche wrote 4 books about wagner's art, you deem all this "personal" because you are trying to reconcile nietzsche's anti-christianity with your own faith, and you chose the laughable biographical explanation because you are not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. the only way you christians cope with nietzsche is by not taking him seriously. pathetic.

>>18315242
Wrong.

>>18315257
I want the tradcath larpers on this board to fuck right off

>>18315416
Bad b8, kill yourself.

>>18317472
Becoming catholic is a noble pursuit no one is perfect but we should strive to be
God bless you anon

>>18315215
Was Goethe a based philo-Muslim like Hitler?

>>18318098
Joining a church because you think it makes you "trad" and "based" and because you think it will get you some qt trad wife is far from based. And striving for perfection is not at all a uniquely Christian or Catholic concept.

>>18318098
You aren't even old enough to drink wine in your shithole town in america, stop acting as if you have an, idea of what you are talking about

>>18315786
How did you misunderstand what I said? Nietzsche very explicitly says his music philosophy and psychology from a Christian perspective; this is the nature of Nietzsche's multi-faceted thought, you cannot so easily pin it down especially when he is talking about Wagner, a man and artist he admired until the end. The biographical is inextricable from the philosophical and vice versa for Nietzsche, you cannot ignore its importance in his break from Wagner.

I am not trying to say Nietzsche is a Christian, how is that even related?

>>18315721
He dislikes the imagery of the crucifixion?

>>18321139
the meaning of it, but yes the imagery also

>>18321160
What did he dislike about the meaning of it?

>>18321181
the pathos of the god-man who suffered and died on the cross for us is foreign to him. I think it's something that is simply appealing to some people and not to others. "Da ich zwar kein Widerkrist, kein Unkrist aber doch ein dezidirter Nichtkrist binn, so haben mir dein Pilatus und so weiter widrige Eindrücke gemacht, weil du dich gar zu ungebardig gegen den alten Gott und seine Kinder stellst."

"Since I am certainly no anti-Christian, no un-Christian but rather a decided non-Christian, your Pilate and the rest have given me unfavorable impressions, because you are far too unruly towards the old God and his children."

Wagner predicted the failure of communism.

>We shall recognise it as the most sinful state for a human Society to be in, when the energy of individuals is pronouncedly hampered, when available forces can neither move in freedom nor thoroughly expend themselves; providing always—and this is the only reservation—the earthly soil is broad enough to yield them nurture. We shall perceive that Human Society is maintained by the activity of its members, and not through any fancied agency of money: in clear conviction shall we foundd the principle—God will give us light to find the rightful law to put it into practice ; and like a hideous nightmare will this demoniac idea of Money vanish from us, with all its loathsome retinue of open and secret usury, paper-juggling, percentage and bankers' speculations. That will be the full emancipation of the human race; that will be the fulfilment of Christ's pure teaching, which enviously they hide from us behind parading dogmas, invented erst to bind the simple world of raw barbarians, to prepare them for a development towards whose higher consummation we now must march in lucid consciousness. Or does this smack to you of Communism? Are ye foolish or ill-disposed enough to declare the necessary redemption of the human race from the flattest, most demoralising servitude to vulgarest matter, synonymous with carrying out the most preposterous and senseless doctrine, that of Communism? Can ye not see that this doctrine of a mathematically-equal division of property and earnings is simply an unreasoning attempt to solve that problem, at any rate dimly apprehended, and an attempt whose sheer impossibility itself proclaims it stillborn? But would ye denounce therewith the task itself for reprehensible and insane, as that doctrine of a surety is? Have a care! The outcome of three-and-thirty years of unruffled peace shews you Human Society in such a state of dislocation and impoverishment, that, at end of all those years, ye have on every hand the awful spectacle of pallid Hunger! Look to it, or e'er it be too late! Give no alms, but acknowledge a right, the God-given right of Man, lest ye live to see the day when outraged Nature will gird herself for a battle of brute force, whose savage shout of victory were of a truth that Communism; and though the radical impossibility of its continuance should yield it but the briefest spell of reign, that short-lived reign would yet have sufficed to root up every trace, perchance for many an age to come, of the achievements of two thousand years of civilisation. Think ye, I threaten ? Nay, I warn!
- Vaterlandsverein political speech

>>18315215
>>18315242
>>18315343
>>18315649
>>18315717
>>18315747
>>18321843

>>18321361
> no un-Christian but rather a decided non-Christian
What is he trying to say here? Can we call him "cultural Christian"? I don't understand.

>>18315242

>>18315491
On the other hand this Pepe is posted exclusively by free thinkers.

>>18315716
his "god" has no will, he's an atheist.

>>18317472
>>18318236
>>18319530
Stop attacking imaginary caricatures, virgin. They don't exist.

>>18322577
Seek help