/lit/ - Literature

>>18302838
>hurr durr why isn't the world a perfect painless utopia where nothing ever happens
You will never understand. You are not human, you are a bug-man.

>>18302845
>stop complaining and trivialize suffering to maintain the status quo
you are most odious bug man that exists. i want to eat you and shit you into an active volcano

>>18302845
Isn't the whole point of your religion to shift your suffering onto an omnipotent god just so you could land in your ''perfect painless utopia where nothing ever happens'' in the ''afterlife''?

>why didn't everyone at every point in history have the perspective of a modern man who watched too much star trek as a kid

>>18302866
Confirmed for having never read the bible.

>>18302859
>status quo
What a surprise, you didn't understand.

"JACKALOPES could be here" he thought, "I've never been this close to a bush before. There could be JACKALOPES anywhere." The cool wind felt good against his blue bonnet. "I HATE JACKALOPES" he thought. Salve Regina reverberated across his rosary beads, making it pulsate even as the wine lingered on his powerful thick tongue and washed away his (confused) fear of animals outside the city. "With a eucharist, you can go anywhere you want" he said to himself, out loud.

>>18302838
A god that would take pleasure in the blood of children. That would stand by as some species subsists on the blood of others. That would speak words that encourage the murder of innocent unborn babies. But none of that matters because this guy saved our lives, brought us from a life of hell and genocide, that left us sick and dying, to one of health and joy, we can live eternally in heaven. We live forever? A non answer to his question.

>>18303455
In the end, the problem of evil still stands unadressed, and I feel that christians haven't really stated a strong case to justify their dogma, IMO.

>>18302972
kek

>>18302838
>>18302866
>>18303455
>>18303495
Even the most trivial critical examination of life points to the truth that the universe is the creation of no god, but rather the eternal uncreated result at the meeting point of confluent principles, some conscious, some not, some serene, some driven by an incessant will to exist.

>>18303747
So the central fact about our universe is that it is created by no god, but rather, the product of the aggregate of its parts, some of which are conscious, and some not.

So what about science? The standard scientific model says that the universe emerged in a Big Bang from the transformation of a cosmic soup into a multitude of galaxies.

Yet, no matter how powerful the macrocosm of our universe is, we must concede that it is like a small drop in the ocean of the overall universe.

>>18302838
That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die

>>18303747
adorable

>>18303770
>The standard scientific model says that the universe emerged in a Big Bang from the transformation of a cosmic soup into a multitude of galaxies.
My belief doesn't exclude a series of cyclically created and destroyed universes, something must have existed before our big bang, and I believe it still falls under my conception of it all.

>>18303784
You are such an incultured retard you didn't even realise what I described represents the ancient belief of Samkhya, the school of thought from which Vedanta and all other beliefs that scientists on the left appreciate were birthed.

>>18303821
cope

>>18303870
You will never be a woman

>>18303821
>no god
>SHAMKHYA
start with rene guenon

>>18304075
>start with the retarded larper who misred every single text he ever laid his eyes on
nah

>>18304085
>PURUSHA AKA CONSCIOUSNES
>YEAH NO GOD

>>18303885
t. gnostictranny

>>18302972
Based

>>18302922
/thread

>>18304100
You have no idea what you're talking about, kid

>>18302838
Shut the fuck up you little effeminate maggot worm.

>>18302866
>"perfect painless utopia where nothing ever happens"
read the bible

>>18302838
Why in a Shakespeare plays are there bad guys doing evil things? The tensions within art are what allow us the great sense of beauty when that tension is resolved at the end. Existence is the creative act of God, his art. Suffering allows us to understand the beauty in his creation when that suffering is overcame.

>>18302838
you realize this passage of rhetoric is not meant to glorify violence but to condemn it, right? de maistre truly believes christianity is the only viable alternative in such a world we live in.

>>18305160
>this is the cope that christcucks live with

>>18305178
how is it cope

>>18302838
De Maistre isn't lauding killing for its own sake. It is just the reality of things. If anything history has borne this assessment out. I don't think that such a pessimistic worldview is incompatible with Christianity, De Maistre probably took his faith more seriously than most modern Christians. If anything the sentimentality that many attribute to modern Christianity is a reaction against precisely the sort of violence De Maistre writes of here - as was experienced during the 20th Century.

>>18305450
>It is just the reality of things.
No it isn't

>>18305117
then explain and correct me

>>18305217
it is not, don't worry, that guy is literally blinded by his nebulous mentality.

>>18302838
>man how the hell can christians consciously spout these things yet remain christian?
Because it’s part of their religion. Even Augustine believed that torture was an act of compassion if it was being done to bring someone to the light.
The problem is that you’ve seem to have mistake. Atheist redditors posting the verses they find most agreeable for Christianity as a whole rather than looking at Christianity as it has been practiced over the millennia it has existed.

>>18303821
> the school of thought from which Vedanta and all other beliefs that scientists on the left appreciate were birthed.
Theism is not birthed from non-Theism, rather the Theistic and non-Theistic interpretation of the Vedas were both ancient, and then when the Theistic interpretations consolidated into Vedanta schools they accepted some of the classification of Vedic metaphysical concepts by the Samkhya. The Samkhya despite claiming the sanction of the Sruti miss the obvious fact that the Upanishads clearly teach the existence of God, viz Brahman, the Vedanta is the intellectual heritage of the groups going back into ancient times who had always correctly interpreted the Sruti as presenting the existence of a Supreme Lord.

>>18305483
Purushas in Samkhya are not god, but the individual consciousnesses of living things. The switch to consciousness = god happens much later in Vedanta when they subordonate samkhya terminology and metaphysics to pre-existing theistic tendencies in the vedic texts.

>>18302972
Holy kek. De Maistrefags btfo.

>>18305561
>The Samkhya despite claiming the sanction of the Sruti miss the obvious fact that the Upanishads clearly teach the existence of God
Samkhya predates the Upanishads, and the older Vedas only talk about such metaphysics in passing, showing the seeds of further schools that would develop, but to say that one school is the "true heritage" of the ancients is reductionist and simply incorrect.

>>18305160
BUT I WANT EVERYTHING FOR FREE
IT'S OWED TO MEEEEEEE
BECAUSE? UHH SHUT UP JUST GIVE ME A PERFECT LIFE GOD OR I WON'T IN YOU ASSHOLE
This is the actual psychology of retards like OP who get hung up on the problem of evil, they are mental children and that's not hyperbole.

>>18305690
Purusha is literally consciousness in Samkhya, the indispensable and qualitative principle of manifestation, what are you on about?

>>18305217
All these attempts at solving the problem of suffering within the boundaries of christian theology inevitably lead to comically absurd appeals to emotion in a desperate bid to salvage the christian god in a world that definetely doesn't fit it.

>>18305703
>Samkhya predates the Upanishads
Source? Many affirm Samkhya is derived from Upnaishadic era.

>>18305747
>indispensable and qualitative principle of manifestation
Only Prakriti manifests in any way, Purushas, as you correctly noted are consciousness, they only observe and enjoy. Read the Samkhya-Karika if you truly want to understand what it's philosophy is about. Even the theistic school of Yoga accepted this distinction and added Ishvara as an additional 26th principle. The conflation of Purusha and Ishvara happened later with the advent of the Upanishads.

>>18305774
I know Purusha is this pure Consciousness, but it must conjoin or penetrate Prakriti in order to manifest and generate the world. The point I think is that Samkhya is not necessarily atheistic, Consciousness cannot be at fault with intelligibility, and cannot have intentionality.

>>18305774
>>18305811
also, thank you for the recommendation I'm really interested in dualistic protology. but isn't this karika by gaudapada?

>>18305811
>but it must conjoin or penetrate Prakriti in order to manifest and generate the world.
It's Prakriti that molds itself around the Purusha and manifests the world, while the Purusha enjoys the creation as detached observer.

>>18305824
The Karika is the text of the school, Gaudapada has a commentary of it, but there are better ones in existence, i cant rember their names right now.

>>18305836
This interpretation is weird because I thought Prakriti was literally matter, potentiality which was molded, qualified by Purusha, just like the seed (purusha) is sown in the earth (prakriti).

>>18305844
Ah yes, I just realized it. Indeed there must be better bhashyas, Gaudapada is crypto-buddhist nihilist.

>>18305500
The light of what? The God who made this senseless world of untold suffering? The whole cycle of life is predicated on suffering. Animals devour other animals just to sustain themselves. Why would a compassionate God ever come with such a thing? And why would you worship such God?

>>18302922
kek

>“In the whole vast dome of living nature there reigns an open violence. A kind of prescriptive fury which arms all the creatures to their common doom: as soon as you leave the inanimate kingdom you find the decree of violent death inscribed on the very frontiers of life. You feel it already in the vegetable kingdom: from the great catalpa to the humblest herb, how many plants die and how many are killed; but, from the moment you enter the animal kingdom, this law is suddenly in the most dreadful evidence. A Power, a violence, at once hidden and palpable. . . has in each species appointed a certain number of animals to devour the others. . . And who [in this general carnage] exterminates him who will exterminate all others? Himself. It is man who is charged with the slaughter of man. . . The whole earth, perpetually steeped in blood, is nothing but a vast altar upon which all that is living must be sacrificed without end, without measure, without pause, until the consummation of things, until evil is extinct, until the death of death.”

>>18305912
Evil is a veil and God created not this world. Insofar as you cannot see it, the veil remains on your eyes and until you take it off, evil will be there as evil, darkness, lethe. You either integrate it into yourself or they will consume you.

>>18305479
Yeah it is. Look around kek.

Just like >>18303747 insists that "critical examination" indicates that the universe is uncreated even though fairly straightforward empirical observation suggest it's not.

>>18305912
>The God who made this senseless world of untold suffering?
The suffering that takes place in the world is neither senseless nor "untold".

> Animals devour other animals just to sustain themselves.
So what.

>>18306260
>t. cityfag

>>18306032
>integrate evil or the principle of evil into yourself

>>18306269
>trivialize suffering

kek there's no greater evidence for modern "christianity" being an endorphin cult than its response to the problem of evil. watch 'em squirm

>>18306295
You are absolutely paralyzed by evil. You are blind, traumatized and thus let it take you over. Death is your only escape at this point. This, however, in your state, will only bring you what is worse. You are ill, cannot face it and elude your own cure: suffering that is the remedy for disorder.

>>18306321
Yeah this IS about the the point where you start calling me sick for calling a spade a spade. Dance you little faggot muppet dance

>>18302838
Suffering is based actually

>>18306332
You can keep what is clearly yours.

>>18306347
it’s based to be mean and cruel, christ taught you needed to harden your heart against suffering and kill your compassion, becoming a based killing machine.

this is in reaction to the french revolution and it's not talking about morality but the basic maintenance of civilisation (including religion) against a backdrop of 'anything goes' savagery.

>>18306295
>NOOOOO YOU CANT JUST HAVE DIFFERENT TERMS AND ASSUMPTIONS TO ME. IM RIGHT!! I NEED TO BE.
squeal with your brethren (religious fanatics), diseased scum.

>>18302838
You can tell a lot about an atheist by how they argue their case. Low iq, emotional atheists will argue that evil and suffering exist and therefore god can’t exist, or that a just god wouldn’t condemn people to hell, while a high iq, rational atheist argues from the fundamental lack of evidence in a god and uses Occam’s razor without ever needing to resort to the problem of evil.

Funny enough, it’s the opposite for Christians. Christians that try to rationally justify god’s existence and use apologetics are low iq and low self awareness midwits, while Christians who simply say they have faith in god and feel His all encompassing grace and love are at least consistent.

>>18305753
>appeals to emotion
In what way am I doing that? I don’t see your point

>>18305863
>This interpretation is weird
It's not an interpretation, it's the way Samkhya plainly states it's position, why do you think I insist on reading the texts themselves rather than just believing whatever preconceptions one accidentally comes to hold.
Also the Gaudapada commentary is good and it doesn't interpret Samkhya in an Avdaita way, it explains and clarifies the text as it is, it's just that other commentaries are more elaborate.

>>18305758
Nobody sane affirms that. Virtually all indian texts, including the Upanishads, revere Samkhya as an older and highly enlightened movement, placing only the Vedas higher. This without mentioning all the scholarship that supports this.

>>18306727
Christians have never solved the problem of evil.

>>18307810
I have

>>18306727
>thinking about suffering of others and yourself is low iq
You might as well be a fucking robot. The argument of suffering against God and belief in God rise from emotion and this is what makes us human.

You cannot look at the world and read God's intentons directly in it.

The entire creation was afflicted by the Fall and was corrupted by it.

I would face the eternal punishment rather than bending the knee in the front nature which is red in its tooth and claw.

>>18307898
What makes you human is reason. Without reason but emotions governing man there is absolutely nothing. The pre-rational state of humanity was a state of disorder and unrestrained violence.

>>18307810
Maybe because there has never been a problem of evil?

>>18302972
Very based

>>18309170
>The pre-rational state of humanity was a state of disorder and unrestrained violence.
based

>>18309290
This poster whines about niggers burning down cities

>>18302838
Hes' right

>>18309177
Yes, there is. In fact, there's only a problem of evil when Christianity enters the scene

>>18309170
>The pre-rational state of humanity was a state of disorder and unrestrained violence.
cope fabricated by your corporate overlords.

>>18309469
This is not to say that evil does not exist, it does and its existence is dependent.

>cope
The natural state is historically, mythologically, biologically, psychologically and phenomenologically proven to be in the way described.

>>18309170
We are both being reductive here by saying [x] makes one human. It's very complex. Robots have reason but they aren't human. With reason it's impossible to deny or accept the God.

>>18309543
You are not wrong. Man is both rational and irrational. But the former is a principle distinct to humanity and not only constitutive, it is essential. My emphasis on reason points to the governing principle of our activities as essentially human and mainly to our transposition from the wild, savage, bestial nature (which still is not entirely alien to us).

>>18302838
This incel's philosophy is contradicted by the fact that a liberal society we live in is the least violent in history. He was projecting his own sociopathy onto nature and this nature on society as a whole. Reminder that right wing terrorism is a much bigger threat to peace and security than left wing terrorism

>>18309606
>a liberal society we live in is the least violent in history.
Tell the this to the 10 years old slaves in Congo. And give them tributes for finding minerals for your tech gadgets so your tolerant liberal society could flourish. Tell this large proportion of suicidal youth. Tell this to the people suffering in 3rd world shithole due to carbon emissions of 1st world countries. Tell this to the populations of countries in which mutts funded dictators and now those fairly progressive countries are fundamentalist shiteholes.

>>18302838
Why do you look at violence as some kind of wrong? People that preach pacifism generally do so because of reasons for want of control. A free man is also violent, but reasonably so. There is a difference between capability of violence and enacting violence for the sake of violence. This has always been the case. Why do you condemn an existence where violence is an integral component of our life? Do you WANT to be dominated or something?

>>18309606
>is the least violent in history.
I highly doubt that. Mostly modern societies are built on deceptions harnessing the corrupting influence of the lie that is the "Information Age".

>>18309606
Cosmological violence is ao obvious you can’t be serious here. There will always be violence in nature and man, animals, men will never stop killing one another. Politics is the very realm of controlled violence, that is why it is so intimate to religion. It is the very “right wing terrorism” proposing the maintenance of institutions which establish order the responsible for peace. See how today you cannot open your mouth, write a post on internet without being threatened by a mass of resentful people obliterating you, attacking and even putting your life at risk. The scapegoat mechanism is still more present than ever.

>>18309689
The difference is in antiquity one could defend themselves from such attacks. Even as late as the 16th-17th cent. if someone made such scathing attacks against you (e.g. "doxed you") you could challenge them to a duel and rightfully settle matters as free individuals, rather than subservient rats in a cage trying to throw one another to the hungry cat that's slowly devouring the whole cage.

>>18309661
I didn't say there is no violence but there is much less violence than 100 years ago. We still have much work to do but de Maistre's approach of naturalizing violence as the inherent metaphysical principle won't get us anywhere
>>18309686
See pic related. By any measure ours is the most peaceful time in history of mankind
>>18309689
>It is the very “right wing terrorism” proposing the maintenance of institutions which establish order the responsible for peace
What institutions was Timothy McVeigh preserving?
>See how today you cannot open your mouth, write a post on internet without being threatened by a mass of resentful people obliterating you, attacking and even putting your life at risk. The scapegoat mechanism is still more present than ever.
In the past you could be burned at stake for denying Church dogma. Cancel culture still seems to be less violent than this. It's obviously a modern phenomenon that has to do with the extension of the public sphere

>>18309734
Now we just have Forever Wars and mental prisons, such an improvement.

>>18309734
>>18309606
Don't fall for the bait,you are wasting your brain cells if you do
>>18309421
He is

>>18309734
>what institutions
Don’t know about him, but do you really not to understand such an obvious claim?

>in the past church would burn you!!
Not really. You should read more about what was the Inquisition. But cancel culture is not that different, you don’t need to kill someone to be violent, see the Pharmakon in ancient greece.

>>18309734
>less violence than 100 years ago
Not in most of the countries in the world.
>we should progress! De maistre’s making an obvservation about the cosmological and anthropological processes wont lead us anywhere
You are dumb and brainwashed. Leave this place.

>>18309734
>I didn't say there is no violence but there is much less violence than 100 years ago.
Bullshit, mental health crisis is the biggest question mark on liberalism. Violence is still there but it's hidden and it slowly rots you from the inside. Many suffered and suffers for your liberal societies. Evil nature of this existence is true, just take a look at the meat industry and what's been happening in the wild world for billions of years. Go visit the hospitals, court rooms and bureaucratic centers to see the real condition of humanity. Whole world works on the Law of Entropy. Life preys on life. Just 70s years ago this world fought the biggest and carried the highest numbers of coffin in war history. Let's just ignore the shitshow that happened within the those years. And the "calm" of these years is the calm before the storm. Viscous things has been cooking up in period. And it's going to explode like volcano. Civilization rise and civilizations falls. Species come into the existence and species go extinct. History is cyclic. And "progress" is the biggest lie.
I agree with you that violence against violence isn't a solution but all the great actions to suppress violence have created more violence. Nazis were also revolting against the evil bolsheviks.

>>18302838
>''compassion ain't free, the streets gotta be litterd with blood''
Although this line made me laugh, this is just the unity of opposites and process philosophy in a nutshell. Or, "no pain, no gain" as the bodybuilders say. If we knew nothing of sorrow and grief then we would know nothing of joy and love either.

>>18302972
Incredible

>>18309606
>Uhh, I think I know what I'm talking about you guys, I just finished reading a reddit review of a youtube video of Steven Pinker's latest book you guys
lewl
bugmen are hilarious
they always find 'facts' to suit their world view rather than a world view to suit facts

>>18309661
>>18310623
It's always hilarious to me how people like Pinker use cherry picked slavery statistics to demonstrate the world is safer or more liberal or whatever, when we currently live at peak slavery. There has never in human history been more slaves alive than today. What's more, never before in human history has that slavery been less necessary due to technology or tacitly approved of by more people than now. If anything a reasonable observer would conclude human nature is absolutely monstrous and modern man is no exception.

>>18309661
outa of sight outa mind nigga
gotta get me dem nikes yo

>>18302838
>kind god
you think Christians worship a kind god? lmao

>>18305154
No

>>18302838
>if god good why bad thing happen

>>18311415
Yes.

>>18311415
An extremely valid question.

>>18311415
>>18311696
I think of god as a type of 'force' rather than a sentience. It is creating 'the best possible outcome', and that may not always be apparent, because it cannot stop bad things happening, only steer the good into making the best possible choices.

>>18311415
>if the creator of the universe is fundamentally good why does he regularly create conditions wherein children are subjected to sexual exploitation, mutilation, and early painful deaths
idk I think the question is a valid one

>>18311713
>'the best possible outcome'
Yeah from billions of years full of suffering, death and disease.

>>18311415
Uh, yeah?

>>18311669
>>18311696
>>18311738
>>18311744
Unironically filtered by what good is and reality itself, try being born again i dont know

>>18311740
Yes. If god as a force cannot prevent acts of evil, but only steer the righteous into acts of good, then how would it ever be able to stop disease? Or war? And who is to say that all war is bad? Unforeseen consequences may have laid in the earth unstained by blood, and though we walk across the bones of the fallen, it may be the best path we have available.

It sounds sick. But I don't propose god as a force of sentience, certainly not one of human morality; a being that drives 'best overall outcome', that might sometimes be at the expense of an individual.

>>18311782
so does good just mean "what God wants" or something? is every Christian a slave to God then? can't think of another definition of good that would condone regularly placing children in situations where they are raped, tortured, and painfully killed

>>18311794
>Just ignore the billions of years of slaughter on this planet and trust the plan bro
No, sorry I am not this much solipsistic.

Reminder that meaningless suffering exist

>>18311803
>are you a slave to god?
Holy shit the absolute mentality

>>18311836
>believe that "the good" is "what God wants"
>strive to be good
what else does this mean other than being God's slave?

>>18311819
Didn't call it a plan.

>>18311782
I envy you because you know the truth.

>>18311782
You read On Beauty once and now you're a theurgist. We get it. Face it: Iamblichus was always a pro-establishment cuck, the gnostics were always more radical in their speculations, they had the balls to go full acosmicism while the ailing neocucktanist schools were still trying to achieve union with demiurgic (read: demonic) powers.

>>18311831
All suffering is meaningful.

>>18306727
Occam's razor is a low IQ or midwit argument. The belief that what is psychologically smoothest is the truth is the source of half of philosophical errors and leads to absolute trite bullshit like Reid or Moore.
Besides, on the specific question it would be a (strange) argument for God. Nothing can out-occam an islamic type reductionist collapse into an Insha'Allah.

>>18312144
>All suffering is meaningful.
You're a child if you believe this. I feel like I'm talking to cartoons sometimes. I can't speak, I can't make myself understood. I recede from your universe at the speed of light.

>>18302972
Exquisite

>>18312171
Children are the people rolling into a rage of "not fair not fair not fair" at the slightest suffering.

>>18312144
No, there is suffering that doesn't contribute to anything but more suffering, or simply anything at all

>>18312263
>Children are the people rolling into a rage of "not fair not fair not fair" at the slightest suffering.
That's a caricature. Suffering is the only problem that is real.

>>18312030
i am a christian but i side with gnostics against pagans and their idolatry of this fallen world, but gnostics are really dumb and cringe on political issues

This thread was moved to >>>/his/11191944