/lit/ - Literature

I'm on page 96, and have thirty minutes to write. I dunno how some of you put out content so fast, I'll start writing and time just flies.

Is it stupid to switch from first person narration to third person for a brief period (1-2 pages at most) because the narrator describes an alter ego? I mean describing what he does as that alter ego in the third person.

I have a horrible writer's block what to do?

Does normal fiction have a chance of success on Royal Road?

>>18289698
Yes? You shouldn't have grammar issues in a first draft unless it's a mistake that your eyes didn't catch. It should be instinctual. There is no excuse to have your dialogue be like this, like most Royal Retards have it as:

>"I don't know how to write a dialogue tag." He said with a shake of his head.

Publishing serially is altogether bad for structure. There's a reason why people say to get the first draft out and then edit it. The second draft should be primarily for structure, like switching around or removing plot points. You can't do that if you're going to publicly release a chapter before the draft is done.

>>18289862
Usually when I want to talk about a character from another viewpoint I'll start a new chapter and make it really clear with a header that x character is now narrating.
If I were you though I'd go ahead and write the piece, hand it to a family member and tell them what you're trying to do and see if they catch on to the switch without much issue or not.
Sometimes someone that doesn't read can tell you more than someone that does.

>>18289867
Just start writing.

>>18289881
Normal fiction as opposed to what?

>>18289891
To finish the next first draft first you need time you spent correcting the direction of the previous work to make the most out of Trending's growth to get to Best Rated or Popular this Week.
Because if that doesn't get you a starting readerbase, you'll be stuck with Recent Updates and, possibly, Recommendations or Top Review. But at that point, you'll get more out of author shout outs and review swaps.

>>18289893
Well, there's only one narrator and it's only part of the chapter. He basically describes what he does and how he acts when he visits a certain person and assumes a slightly different personality. There is a mention that this person know a different version of him before switching to third person mid-paragraph. I feel like it's easy to follow honestly.

>>18289903
A brief glance at the top stories seems to me to reveal that many of them have solo RPG elements.

>>18289787
Why don't we just rename this Royal Road general? Seems like that's what 90% of the discussion in these threads is about. Would be cool to have a general about the craft of writing or some bullshit.

>>18289955
what do you mean by that?

>>18289894
Easier said than done. I lack all the inspiration and passion for my work and it is only half finished.

>>18289992
The characters have literal stats a la D&D, and they seem in some ways self-aware of the improvement of them.

>>18289996
If anything, it's easier done than said. Anything else is just mental gymnastics.

>>18290008

>>18289996
When did you lose it and why? And do you properly understand that writing is work, not just something that happens when you are inspired, whatever the hell that means. Just sit down and start pushing buttons.

>>18289996
>I lack all the inspiration and passion for my work
Find out why. Contrast it with your previous inspiration and passion.

Or take it easy and just go back a chapter and start from there. If you don't have an overarching plot, go do that.

>>18289991
All of my stuff is in kdp and I haven't seen anything really about rr til last thread.
I'd never use it but some anon is excited about it. It'll pass.
I got two paragraphs done. Go team.
Back to work.

>>18290016
Sorry anon. I thought you knew.

>>18289991
Sorry anon but RR Chads run this place now.
>13k/month on patreon
>vocab of a 13 year old
>never read a book in entire life, just consume anime

>>18290109
As long they are having fun, it's kinda based.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz9BCrXueNE
How do agents not become alcoholics? How is one even supposed to get their attention when they are flooded with so much shit, I imagine them being pretty numbed.

>>18290119
The guy making 13k is crying like a teenage girl about every single 0.5 star review he gets and has taken two hiatuses in around two months because of "mental stress".

>>18290145
KEK

>>18290140
Are agents actually necessary btw? I know they can be useful, but can't you just send stuff directly to a publisher?

>>18290145
As someone earlier said, he's getting great publicity by being a little bitch.

>>18290160
If you're going for a tiny press, no. Anything where you hope for a real advance and a marketing plan? Yeah, good luck without an agent.

>>18290172
I should try to do that honestly. Go post some mediocre shit then cry and bitch continually on the forums about how they're oppressing a strong albino african-identifying male-presenting transgender lesbian such as myself.

>>18290181
Brilliant. You'll make a mint, guaranteed

would it be too on-the-nose to use the stream of consciousness style? I've been reading Faulkner lately and I love that stuff. Apparently he got that from Pynchon but I've never read his work.
So anyway I'm just wondering if it would be cringey or pretentious I guess.

>>18290287
No go for it

I wrote this, what do you think?

Delta team reached the outer wall of the Skynet factory. Large defence turrets scanned the perimeter. It was very important that they avoid detection. Just like they planned, they were going to snipe the turrets and enter the factory undetected. Captain Marshall whispered "Johnson, you take the left flank. Smith, the right flank. Robbins, you're with me. Let's move." They all moved into position discretely. "This is what we trained for," said the Captain over the radio. "Roger." replied the others. "When I give the signal, we take them all out." he said. "Roger that." said Smith. "I'm ready." said Johnson. With a loud crack, the turrets sparked and deactivated. "That's a hit." said Smith. The team moved into the factory, and continued to the control centre. "We don't have much time, people. Let's move." said the Captain. They moved up the stairs to the control centre, and blew the door. The control centre was a large room, full of terminals and computers. "Johnson, connect to the mainframe, and begin the upload." the Captain commanded. Johnson sat at the terminal, and connected his data-jack to the computer. "Connection established successfully", read the terminal screen. "How long is this going to take? We don't have much time." said the Captain. "About 2 minutes, sir." replied Johnson. Captain Marshall peaked out the window impatiently. The factory was quiet and still. "This is Johnson, uploading complete." he said. "Acknowledged. Mission Success." said a voice over the radio. Then, the lights went out. "What the hell?" said the Captain. He pulled out his radio. "This is Marshall, what happened?" he said. He received no response. Suddenly, the lights came back on, and the factory machines sprung to life. "Delta Team, this is command. The factory looks to be producing robots. The plan worked. Now, get out of there." said the voice over the radio. "Johnson, the extraction team is going to meet us at the factory perimeter. Let's move." said the Captain. Johnson nodded, and the team made their way to the extraction point. Smith looked up, "Sir, Skynet will notice the factory is active within 3 to 5 hours. That should be just enough time to produce about 12,000 friendly terminator robots." he said. "Good work, Smith." said the Captain. "That should be enough robots to mount our final offensive operation against Skynet central command." Smith nodded. As the extraction helicopter approached it made a loud noise. The team jumped in, and the helicopter took off. "Mission accomplished." said Captain Marshall.

>>18290335

Later...

"Sir, we have a critical situation." said Johnson, as he walked into Captain Marshall's office. "What is it?" asked the Captain. "It's the factory, sir. Skynet has noticed that the factory is active." "But it's only been 2 hours? I thought we'd have more time." said the Captain. "How many robots have we been able to produce in 2 hours?" "About 3,000, sir." replied Johnson. "This ain't looking good for us." said Marshall. "It gets worse. Skynet has discovered the location of our main base and they are sending an army of terminators as we speak." Said Johnson. "Do we have the man-power to hold them off?" "Certainly not, sir." said Johnson. "Then we must mount our offensive operation against Skynet central command as soon as possible." Marshall replied, as he got up to smoke a cigar. Marshall turned to look out the window, his arms crossed behind his back as he smoked his cigar thoughtfully. "If we can destroy Skynet central command before the approaching army reaches us, the uplink will be blocked and Skynet will lose control of its army. It's our only hope." "My God. You're absolutely right, sir" said Johnson. "I'll send an urgent request for heavy air support. We'll need as many jets, bombers, missiles and gunships as we can muster." said Marshall. "Contact the head of Strategic Munitions, we're going to need a tactical nuke. We have no choice." "Yes, sir." said Johnson.

>>18290335
>>18290343
Too much unnecessary dialogue.
>Smith said 'go to position'
>Adam said 'roger'
>they went to position
you see what I mean? You're using way too much direct speech for such banal information. It's very tiring to read because of that. Try to limit that type of stuff as much as you can.
Also the content seems like the most average hollywood scripted war movie ever. I wouldn't want to read this. But that's just me.

>>18290335
>>18290343
1. Fix your dialogue tags
2. Paragraph break your dialogue
3. Put it in a damn pastebin
4. Read a book

>>18290431
What's dialogue tags mean? How would you rewrite the story to be better?

>>18290408
True I know it's too verbose, how would you write it to be more succinct? Also yeah I want it to be cheesy hollywood war movie themed.

>>18290444
>"That is correct," he said.
not
>That is correct." he said.

>How would you rewrite the story to be better?
Literally just read a damn book and look at how it does dialogue. Even fucking Magic Treehouse would be beneficial to you. I am amazed that you retards can have an interest in writing literature yet not know how it works in the slightest. Just write a goddamn movie script and stop using literature as your B plan.

>>18290454
A novel isn't a screenplay. Things that work well in movies is painful to read on a page. Unironically read ANY book.

>>18290465
Hey its not my fault, this is the first thing I've ever written. It's pretty good for my first time. I don't think you could write it any better.

>>18290335
Take a look at your dialogue – pretty dull, isn't it? As if the words were only placeholders, spoken by a robot, to be brought to life later, hopefully by interesting and engaging people. What applies to the dialogue also applies to the characters in general: they are made of cardboard, faceless placeholders. The dialogue is stereotypical, the characters are stereotypical - and the scenario is stereotypical: "Rosco, secure the door. Peebles, watch our backs. Move move move!" and so forth. Haven't we seen that a thousand times... Though, I admit, begrudgingly, that "What the gell?" is a good line. Here, for the first time, I want to know what happens next. You have created (finally, better late than never) the first ? of your story. Unfortunately, I don't have the chance to savour the suspense, the answer smacks me in the face like a boredom-stained wet wipe. The line about "12,000 friendly terminator robots" gave me chuckle, though.

Your prose style is fine. A bit clinical perhaps, but nothing to worry about. What went completely wrong is the story. You should take a look at some videos from Film Courage (on youtube) on the subject of storytelling.

>>18290473
But what's wrong with it? I thought it was pretty good. They make movies out of novels all the time, don't they?

>>18290008

>read a book it'll fix all your syntax problems
Autistic reader here
I don't even compartmentalize the fine grammar of what I'm reading
I'm willing to bet the advice is given by either non-readers or those who read exclusively essays and academic papers. It seems weird as fuck to even notice the grammar rules if your not actively studying it. I didn't know exact dialogue tag/action beat rules and had to look it up after autistic anon gave me a whipping

>>18290554
And they rewrite the script to fit the medium. If there is a movie you like that got adopted from a novel, just check out the book and how it's done there. It's more efficient and better for learning to see it for yourself.

>>18290551
>As if the words were only placeholders, spoken by a robot, to be brought to life later, hopefully by interesting and engaging people.

Yeah that's true. I wanted it to be a cheesy hollywood action movie kind of feel. That's why the names are super stereotypical: Johnson, Captain Marshal, etc. But when I imagine it and read it, I'm imagining the characters saying everything with a lot of enthusiasm and life. But there's nothing in the writing that tells the reader that is how the dialogue is being exclaimed.

>Unfortunately, I don't have the chance to savour the suspense, the answer smacks me in the face like a boredom-stained wet wipe.

Hmm, right. I could have dragged out the suspense way longer. My story doesn't really have any tension at all. Again, when I'm imagining the story I'm imagining it's tense because they're in an enemy factory and they could be noticed at any moment. But nothing in the actual writing really paints the picture of this being high stakes or dangerous for the reader.

>>18290454
Not him, but skip anything that's just common sense.
>Large defence turrets scanned the perimeter.
Important
>It was very important that they avoid detection.
Not important
>Just like they planned, they were going to snipe the turrets and enter the factory undetected.
"They prepared to snipe the turrets."
>"When I give the signal, we take them all out." he said
they should already know what they're doing, and we don't need to be told.
>They moved up the stairs to the control centre,
Not important
>and blew the door.
Important. Describe that.

>>18290473
The other way around, too. Any movie that does that pseudowhisper bullshit to convey an internal monologue has already lost ground.

>>18290554
In literature information is presented in a linear, orderly way. You can only parse one piece of information at a time because your reading word by word
Film is not like this. If you don't understand this fundamental difference and engage with the way that readers parse writing then you really shouldn't write

>>18290626
You don't need to notice the stuff actively to learn it. After reading a few dozens/hundreds books, some messed grammar will raise a red flag even if you never learned the rules or don't even know right away what rules it's breaking.
>I didn't know exact dialogue tag/action beat rules
You'd notice basics like this too pretty fast. And once you get it, it's one less thing to worry about.

Something that has been bugging me is defence. Here in America we spell it as defense (defensive, etc) and if you're copying Hollywood all of that is American.
It's one of those things that triggered my inner editor.

>>18290654
Sure, reading builds intuition and anyone who reads a lot can tell fucky writing from decent but I literally didn't even see the formatting for dialogue tags when I read
>said is invisible
Is completely true. The commas after what is said are also completely invisible
I'm sure there's tons of shit like this. Intuition and sensibilities are good to have but no replacement for more active study. You just naturally miss shit reading passively

>>18290637
>but when I imagine it
Reader doesn’t care what you think. All that matters is you aren’t expressing that through the writing. I get that this is your first attempt at it but there’s no need to feel defensive about what people say about it. It takes a lot of practice to really nail the nuisances of invoking emotion through your writing.

>>18290724
Plus doing it right away in a scene with multiple characters is extra hard.

>>18289881
>>18289955
>>18290008
Success is I think entirely subjective. I'm writing a space opera and it has no elements of rpg or anything that's considered popular on the site. I'm not exactly a meter of 'success' with that in mind, but I think I'm satisfied with how I came so far.

>>18289991
Whining about the problem isn't going to fix the problem. There's a old time saying that's practically as old as the concept of time itself: be the change you want to see. If you want to talk about writing and craft then nobody is stopping you. People will respond and entertain you if they feel like it. But I think if you're going to post questions about outlines you think you sound cool or ask what you should write then it's no better than any other given topic being discussed.

>>18290724
>I get that this is your first attempt at it but there’s no need to feel defensive about what people say about it
number one advice for every newfag
chill the fuck out and look at your writing critically. it's gonna be shit, touch it up, move on, whatever. just don't place yourself on a pedestal and refuse to improve

>>18290745
Do you make any money off your story?

>>18290637
The other anons criticise the finer points, that certainly has its value, but what is more important is what you yourself say: the story does not create any tension. And I will tell you now what I told myself many a moon ago: use google. "Help! My story lacks suspense. What do I do?"

>Hmm, right. I could have dragged out the suspense way longer.
Your story must be approached differently from the ground up. It's no use dragging out a little moment in the middle. I just wanted to draw your attention to the fact that at that point, for the first time in your story, something happened that aroused a spark of interest in me.

Tension in a story is like clockwork. It's no use stacking individual nibs and gears in the hollow belly of the pocketwatch. Craftsmanship-

>>18290761
No and I have no plans to. I support myself with my daytime job.

>>18290768
based beyond belief
keep writing anon

>>18290745
>be the change you want to see
ghandi

What should I name my yandere AI character?

>>18291067
Computie the Computer-tan

>>18291073
Man, I wasn't expecting to get the perfect answer so quickly. Thanks.

>>18291067
Ghandi

Ok I rewrote my story a bit tell me what you think:

The Skynet factory was vast. It was a city in and of itself. Enormous metal machines clanked and whirred as clouds of steam rose from smoke stacks the size of skyscrapers. The sounds echoed around the buildings, reverberating endlessly. Johnson couldn't help but flinch at the deafening noise. "It's just like the movies," he said. "Except it's not." replied Smith. Perched atop the perimeter wall were the sentry guns. Each had two barrels, and a camera mounted on top. They were motionless, though Johnson knew they could explode into life at any moment. He had seen how instantaneously they could lock onto at a target with pinpoint accuracy. Johnson motioned silently to Smith. Smith nodded and pulled out his sniper rifle. "If either of us misses our shot, that's the end of us," Johnson said. He trained his scope on the left sentry and took a deep breath. He felt as though the sentry might notice him at any moment, but it didn't seem to move. "On 3," whispered Johnson. "One...two..." Johnson felt the tension building in his chest as his heart thumped. "Three." He fired. The shots echoed across the factory, but was drowned out by the sounds of the machinery. Johnson scanned his scope and saw the sentry gun scanning aimlessly in a panic. Its camera had been hit. The turret spun about, desperate to find the source of the attack. But it was blind. "Good shot," Smith said, watching through his own scope. "Yeah," agreed Johnson.

>>18291141

Smith pulled himself over the wall. He beckoned Johnson to follow. Johnson did so, and landed unceremoniously on his backside. "You alright?" asked Smith. "I'm fine," Johnson replied, picking himself up. They ran across the factory floor, keeping to the shadows as best they could. "Section C-15," said Smith, checking his map. "This way." The maze of passageways brought them before a huge steel door that read "CONTROL CENTER." Smith tried the handle, but it was locked. "I'll get the explosives," he said as he opened his backpack. "Stand back." He pulled out two sticks of dynamite and a detonator. Johnson watched nervously as Smith pushed the detonator into the door and wedged one stick of dynamite into the frame. They took cover behind a nearby wall. Johnson grabbed Smith's wrist urgently. "Wait, there's a patrol!" he whispered. They ducked further into the shadow. A patrolling group of three Terminators walked by. They walked slowly, scanning the factory floor with their cameras. Their menacing red eyes glowed in the dim light. As they passed, Johnson and Smith watched from their hiding place. When the coast was clear, Smith counted to five and pulled the detonator. There was a loud bang, and a bright flash of blue light as a hole was blown in the door that was now hanging off its hinges. "Come on," said Smith. He led Johnson through the open doorway, to a bank of computers. Smith connected his data-link to the mainframe. "I'm in," he said, pointing at the screen. "Connection Established" flashed the screen. "What are you doing?", "I'm uploading a virus," Smith replied. He began typing furiously on the keyboard. "It should disable this whole factory, including the sentries." Johnson's radio crackled to life. "Johnson and Smith, come in. This is Command." "This is Johnson," said Johnson. "What's going on down there?" asked the voice on the other end. "We've managed to infiltrate the control room," said Johnson. "The virus is uploading as we speak." The radio crackled again. "Good work, men. We just wanted to notify you that-" There was a burst of static, followed by a sharp beep. "Command? Command, do you copy?" said Johnson. The lights flickered and then the room went dark. Smith smacked the computer screen, but it was off. "I can't see anything man" Johnson whispered. "It's the power. It's gone off." Smith clutched his rifle. "What do we do?"

>>18291141
>>18291150
Use a fucking pastebin you fucking retard. God damn. How can one person be this fucking stupid.

>>18289862
In the House of the Spirits by Isabel Allende does something like this

>>18291156
shut up retard, if I use a pastebin nobody will read it.

>>18291150
This is the best story I have ever read in my life. You've done it, now press submit to whatever huge publishing house is begging for this novel. Your Pulitzer is in the post I'm sure.

>>18291187
Why don't you tell me what's wrong with it, specifically, instead of vague sarcasm. I'm trying to learn how to write.

>>18291201
First, you should use pastebin.

what u guys think of this story:
smith turned to johnson and said "johnson my johnson is HARD and wants to fuck you haha"
johnson turned around "smith attack my ass with your johnson, THATS AN ORDER!"
then a terminator robot punches johnson in the face
"hello I am robot here is my terminator cock!"
then smith says "oh no. attack my ass with that terminator johnson!"
"affirmative" says terminator, eyes glowing red

THE END

>>18291141
>"It's just like the movies," he said. "Except it's not."
...did you put that line in just to fuck with us?

>>18291212
i thought it sounded pretty cool

>>18291210
This is funny, but what is your point? That you don't like cheesy hollywood movies?

>>18291201
Generally, and this applies to the entire thing, it reads as a movie scene literally and basically translated into words. This is not desirable unless it had some meta purpose, because basic b movies are good because of the visuals and NOT the script. I really dont know if I can provide more useful commentary than that. The other poster said read a book, and while that seems like a joking piece of advice, it is actually apt here. What are you trying to do with this anyway?
I suppose maybe if you really want to write that kind of thing is you need extra detail to make up for it not being a visual movie, while discarding seemingly superfluous lines like "It's the power. It's gone off."

>>18291261
>it reads as a movie scene literally and basically translated into words.

Yes, I get what you're saying. But I don't really know how I'd write it so it "reads more like a book". I can't decide if it's because of the storyline, subject matter and plot-points, or because of the actual writing itself.

How would you write the same story so it doesn't read like a word-movie?

>>18291261
Also the point of it is just for fun. It's fun making up stories and writing, and learning about the rules of writing. It's an interesting skill. To be able to use words to paint a compelling story.

>>18291306
read a book
READ A BOOK
READ BOOKS
GOD DAMMIT

I have made informative OC to help people with their dialogue tags. Feel free to post this whenever you find someone who needs help getting it right.

t. resident dialogue tag autismo

>>18291336
Ok fucker, you clearly read a lot of books and are therefore an excellent master of story telling. So rewrite my shitty story so it sounds better, more like a book.

>>18291347
You're doing god's work, anon

>>18291306
>because of the actual writing itself.
This.
>How would you write the same story so it doesn't read like a word-movie?
Get in the head of one of the characters. But first thing first, if you're going to post stuff here, please use pastebin or whatever lets your format the stuff properly. It's a total bitch to read.
https://pastebin.com/MdbenWYx
Something along these lines. I'm too lazy to do it for the second bit.

THEN you have to think which descriptions of the location are necessary, which bits of dialogue. You want every sentence move the STORY forward. So you'd use "show don't tell" shit for the factory. Instead of telling "it was a city in and itself" you go in deeper and show how it resembles a city. Oh and you also want to give us a reason to care about all of this shit going on.

>"Except it's not." replied Smith.
Take this bit of dialogue. What does it really tell us about the situation or the characters? Ask the question for every sentence.

>>18291347
your autism is a powerful force
this is more of what I want to see from /wg/
god speed tag anon

>>18291347
Gigabased.

>>18291365
There are people that do that for a living. They're called editors.
Get the story on paper, then worry about the rest after the first draft is done.
Just don't get upset if you pay an editor, hand him the manuscript and he looks up at you like you just ran over his first born child.

>>18290287
>Faulkner got that from Pynchon
wut?

>>18291347
lol I'm not a NERD I'll have my editor fix this shit for me.

>>18291411
Editors are people too. Unless they are desperate for money (aka. not very good) they wouldn't touch shit that has issues on fundamental level.

>>18291375
The formatting is much better for sure.

>Instead of telling "it was a city in and itself" you go in deeper and show how it resembles a city.

Ok but "it was a city in and of itself" was my deeper way of saying "the factory was big". And I talk about smoke stacks the size of skyscrapers, and the sound reverberating off the buildings. This is already my deeper description, replacing "the factory was big". I guess I just don't want to spend all day describing the factory in great detail, I want to somehow communicate the bigness and impressiveness of the factory in a few short impactful sentences.

>Oh and you also want to give us a reason to care about all of this shit going on.

Yeah I'm not sure how to do this. How do you make your characters matter?

>>18291418
Holy shit. Stop taking the fucking bait.

>>18291401
I'm not trying to publish a novel. This is just writing for fun. I just want you to prove your skill as a writer. Give me a reference of how good your writing is, so I can see what you do differently that makes your story more enjoyable to read.

>>18291231
Okay first off, and I don't want to be too harsh here, it's objectively not.
Second off, I figured it was because we were already talking about the difference between movies and books

>>18291347
...I'm gonna go ahead and save that.
It's the
>"That's right!" he said.
that I've never been sure about. Thanks.

>>18291141
How is nobody going to acknowledge that the second writing is CLEARLY way better than the first. It's obviously a massive improvement, but nobody mentions it.

Little off topic, but google didn't help. I just bought Scrivener. Is there a way to make it so that the page view isn't all white and has gray margins to make it look more like an actual page a la Word or Open Office?

>>18291488

>>18291424
>And I talk about smoke stacks the size of skyscrapers,
Fair enough. I'm bit tipsy so finer details might evade me. And then the "city" line kinda adds bloat.

>Enormous metal machines clanked and whirred as clouds of steam rose from smoke stacks the size of skyscrapers. The sounds echoed around the Skynet factory, reverberating endlessly.
Would be more efficient then. Although I can't say it's enough to create good enough imagery for me. But more can be done later. Oh an not a fan of the endlessly, try to avoid adverbs.

The next sentence is actually pretty good when it comes to direction since we're getting to the character and how the stuff affects him. Maybe you can combine it with the previous sentence, since both are "shit's noisy" basically.
>I want to somehow communicate the bigness and impressiveness of the factory in a few short impactful sentences.
Which is exactly what you should do but also the part that takes some work. As with the sound, use the character and their impressions to paint the picture. It does double duty, letting us know more about his feelz, the stuff he focuses on, and well, the how overwhelming the size is.
>How do you make your characters matter?
Basically, there needs to be some conflict, choice, something relatable or at least cool. But obviously much easier said than doing it. The good thing is, that once you make the reader care, you can mess up almost everything else and they will still stick with you.

>>18291485
Nigga, it's still 4chains. If you want positive reenforcement, there are millions of other places. If people didn't tell you to kill yourself, it's already going well.

>>18291494
Thank you, that was driving me crazy.

What makes a plot point compelling?

>>18289787
What's the best place to post/read amateur stories/works? Meaning level 0, ultimate newfag tier shit.
I've been thinking of writing something for a while now, but I have zero ideas on where to start, or where to even post anything if I ever do get off my arse.

>>18291518
here and here
discords
RR but then you're bullying underages most of the time

>>18291518
Can always try various reddit serials like HYF or the actual serial sub I guess. There's also Quotev, Scribblehub, Spacebattles, and Royalroad. Posting? Same places I guess. I guess you could try workshops if there's any in your area.

>>18291518
>Meaning level 0, ultimate newfag tier shit.
Retard Road.

Wattpad if you want level -1.

>>18291538
>>18291542
>>18291544
Cheers for the recommendations. I really meant having no clue about this. I've never even heard of any of those sites, so I appreciate the replies.

>>18291561
Best advice:
>write a lot
>read a lot
>get better
>aim for traditional publishing

>>18291603
>>aim for traditional publishing
I’ll rather self-publish.

>>18291603
>>aim for traditional publishing

>>18291615
>>18291616
If you had a The Martian tier hit on Amazon, you would accept a traditional publisher's offer to sell it in bookstores. You know why? Because it's more profitable and you gain more prominence that way. Aim for traditional publishing first and you can skip the Amazon step.

>>18291662
I’ll rather self-publish.

>>18291662
>Because it's more profitable and you gain more prominence that way

>posterity fag tells newcomer how to maximize his pseud aesthetics instead of giving writing advice
holy guacamole

>>18291516
Here's a secret. The plot itself is the least important part of any novel unless you're writing mysteries or thrillers. The interesting thing is how your characters react to it.

You know the MC is going to win in the end in 99 percent of cases. If he goes up against a group of 20 bad guys, the interesting thing is how he reacts to it. Does he try and weasel his way out of it or is it a straight up fist fight? It's interesting if you're thinking something like "How does he get out of this one?"

>>18291662
Sure, but plenty of publishers will be more likely to take notice if you have a legit following online. Not only is it guaranteed book sales, it shows that you're willing to follow projects through.

>>18291662
>If you had a The Martian tier hit on Amazon, you would accept a traditional publisher's offer to sell it in bookstores.
The problem is you'll never git a hit that big without the marketing that traditional publishing supplies.

>>18291662
Just extra-legally place copies of your books in different places across town.

>Lilith's Ruin
Good title, yay or nay?

>>18292084
better be porn

Hey, Royal Road users.
If I were to try my hand at serializing something, should I focus on shoveling out whatever I can as fast as possible, or would people appreciate it if I were slower?

What's your release schedule look like?

I wasn't aiming for the top so I was thinking about taking it easy and releasing a chapter every week or two, but if that would be too slow to even ensure that I'd have a consistent readerbase I would have to reevaluate my schedule.

To everyone, what are some tips to keep in mind when serializing? Like how much I should edit.

>>18292245
1 chapter a day
5000 words per chapter
dont bother editing or even thinking about your plot
be sure to put your character's stats in the heading of each chapter

>>18292250

>>18292245
Consider a backlog at of least 75k to 100k words, even more, before starting out. Because if you don't, and even until that backlog dries up, if you had any other hobbies or commitments with friends you can forget all that since serial writing will consume your life indefinitely.

It's so hard to write a good story for a videogame. There's like a thousand other layers of factors you must account for. It's a nightmare.

>>18292280
Tell me about it. I thought it'd be clever if I wrote some variables accounting for the player's stats and appearance, and woosh... I gave up.

>>18292277
Would you mind elaborating on this if you can? Like, for that backlog of 75k-100k words, how thoroughly should they even be edited? I'm thinking that they should only be as edited as a "standard" serialized chapter would be, but maybe I'm not looking at this from the right angle.

>since serial writing will consume your life indefinitely
Speaking from experience?

>>18292245
>>18292277
>What's your release schedule look like?
Forgot to mention this in my op, I used to write whenever and used to publish as soon as I finished writing and editing, this meant I might release 3-5 days. But I started slipping through since about 2-3 months ago after a year of serializing. I never once had a backlog to go off, and it bites into my morale sometimes. A month ago I decided to aim for a chapter a week: namely by Friday. If I miss that then I might aim for Saturday, and if I miss that deadline then I go for Sunday. I haven't been able to stick to it and I've started slipping into late as Tuesday/Wed releases, and it kinda snowballs. This week I managed to release a late-Tuesday release and was lucky enough to get on track with a Friday release today.

It can be hard. It will be hard if you don't have good wpm and low discipline. You have to discipline yourself and accept that you will have to cut time for other hobbies and time with friends if you did that before serial-writing. You might think you have a few days "off" to do some other things, but if you twiddle your thumbs too long or think, "I'll do something else (like hang out with friends or play vidya, it won't effect my schedule) because you get into that mindset that every day is a "day off" and habits might form.

>>18292302
>how thoroughly should they even be edited?
As much as you think you can. Personally I did spelling checks first, then run it through Grammarly+Gdocs to catch anything I might've missed. Again, if you're not a fast writer you won't really have the luxury of in-depth editing than you would if you were, writing/editing and sitting on the draft before you do whatever with it.

>>18292289
I think part of what makes it hard is there being so little frame of reference. Which games am I supposed to look up to and study when 99% of game stories are dogshit?

>>18292317
>The anine is ded
Why farm on such a steep cliff?

>>18292325
Literally none of them. There is not a single game story that i like. Maybe a few that have good use of pacing and maybe a few that have great characters, but a single one that has the whole package? Nah, not in my experience.

What I'm trying to get at: find a release schedule that you think you can adequately stick to. It helps you, and it helps your followers tune in for when they might expect a chapter. If you think you can stick to releasing a chapter twice a week on Weds and Fridays, then go for it. If you think you can only release once a week on x day then there's no issue with it.

>>18292325
Last of Us 2

>>18292325
>>18292330
simple and minimalist but it's well crafted

>>18292340
bait

>>18292348
Ironically, the best video game stories are the ones with the least amount of story in them.

>>18292317
>I never once had a backlog to go off
Hold on, would you mind explaining this? I think this means that, if you had a backlog of prewritten material, you could comfortably release new chapters without pressure while you worked on the next installment of the story and add it to the backlog to be presented later to readers in turn. Do I have it right?

>>18292353
That's not quite true. The type of video game stories you praise are the epitome of the phrase "a picture tells a thousand words". They're in motion, so each shot, each polygon or pixel moving, essentially creates a brand new picture.

>>18292359
That's more or less on the mark. Ideally, at least on RR it's to net you a lot of almost-constant coverage on most timezones and remain on the front-page for a few weeks/month and a half at least. Ideally, somewhere in that time, you might get reviews picked up and then land on top trending for a few weeks. They reworked the trending system so nobody knows how it works anymore, for the most part.

>>18292368
They built a world and let your imagination fill in the gaps. This is very different from literature where the world must be conveyed through words alone. That means in order to translate a story like Shadow of the Colussus, you have to be an absolute master of show-don't-tell. It's a lot easier to do that in a video game then a book so I don't think there is that much to learn from it which also applies to literature.
People already have a hard enough time figuring out what it means to show-don't-tell. Good luck learning it from an absolute minimalist video game.

>>18290626
The advice is correct, just incomplete. What you actually need to do is read a book in Latin.

why doesn't anyone discuss literature in this general
its always anime and video games

>>18292525
Because we were waiting for you to start a discussion. Be the change you want to see.

>>18291141
>>18291150
What you guys think of my writing?

>>18292537

>>18292561
No, real feedback. About the actual writing itself. You know, a specific, concrete thing you can point out which can be improved upon? Not "hurr durr just make it better lol".

>>18292615
I dislike you strongly
the critcism that it reads like a screenplay is because you just list events
there is no reason for the events to be listed. it's not thematic, it's not evocative, it doesn't draw me into the scene
its just shitty, lazy writing from someone who watches more tv than reads books
fucking christ
you want actionable feedback? read a fucking book. right fucking now
it'll take you a couple days, tops
then write something new and post it
you won't gain anything from begging for advice over this over and over
you can lead a horse to the symptom of bad writing but you can't make it fix its attitude
fucking get over yourself god damn

>>18292675
What is a story other than a list of events?

>>18292723
this bait is mine
it was made for me

>>18292723
my shopping list is also a series of events but you dont see me trying to publish that

>>18292781
I'd be interested in a shopping list with actual events in it.

>>18292781
not really, a shopping list is a list of objects

Terminator-anon, read over the feedback you got and get back to us in the next thread. Right now, the climate is no longer suitable for a fruitful exchange. And think about whether your snippy reactions to the, I admit it, partly acidic criticisms help you or whether you should approach the matter differently.

>>18290444
>What's dialogue tags mean?
The absolute state of /wg/ holy hell

Am I devaluing my characters' struggles if I fantasize about putting them in different erotic situations?

>>18293067
If you only fantasize, you procrastinate. If you write those situations, you are writing smut.

>>18293004
This is 4chan. If we can't call each other niggers what's the point?

Also when I ask for better explanation, it is not only for my own benefit so I can get useful feedback. It is also a challenge. I am asking him to prove his own knowledge/skill, rather than simply granting him status based on the vagaries of high-grounding.

>criticize = superior

If Micheal Jordan watched you play basketball, he could tell you exactly what you're doing wrong in precise detail with ease because he actually understands the game himself. That's a big difference from some random guy sitting in the stands saying "you gotta practice more, bro. Don't ask me I'm too good at basketball to bother explaining it. Just trust me, I'm really good. "

Well maybe. But perhaps not. I would like to see him do a slam dunk. Is that so much to ask? He's a pro NBA player after-all right? Prove your skill, then, sir!

>>18290335
>>18290343
>>18291141
>>18291150

ADICE ADVICE ADVICE

Suitable for all ages.

Your dialogue is flat. What might be helpful: Intentionally write dialogue that is "on the nose," meaning: dialogue in which the characters openly say what they feel and what they want/need. You wrote: "This is what we trained for," which could be translated into: "The situation is dicey and there is a lot at stake. I know that you have a bad feeling in your guts. It's the same for me. But we're Marines, for God's sake. It is our job to screw our fear and fulfill our mission."

Both variants say pretty much the same thing, although the first only lets us guess at the meaning, subtextually that is. The second variant puts the subtext openly on the table. I'm not saying that the second variant is better, but: When you write on-the-nose dialogue, especially when writing your first draft, you are forced to deal with your characters, to imagine what they are feeling, thinking, wanting, hoping, fearing, etc. at that particular moment in the story. "Roger" can then become: "You nailed it boss. You can count on us. We'll rock the boat."

When you write this way, you avoid the problem of having the characters say things that are not at all related to their internal states. In the next step you can think about how you can express these inner states non-verbally - keyword: show, don't tell. When a character says the on-the-nose line: "Shit guys, my ass is on the line. I don't want to get shot," you could instead have him fiddle with his gun and bob his legs (if he's seated) Or have the soldier say a prayer - quickly, a little too quickly. You can also change the on-the-nose dialogue back to dialogue with subtext: One soldier wants to get ammunition from the other, but he refuses to give him any: "I need every round I can get." Depending on what kind of character he is and how we have characterized him so far, this line contains the subtext: "When it comes to life or death, I don't rely on others, I rely on myself," or: "I don't trust you, you're an amateur," or: "Get ammunition from someone else. I'd like to help you, but my job is important and can't be done if I don't have ammunition. Sorry."

>>18293180
Ok so 1. know the emotions of your characters, 2. demonstrate those emotions spilling out in ways that prove the emotions are real. Because of their emotional state, they may say things in a different way, or their body language will betray how they feel.

In my story where they're dealing with the turrets, I wanted there to be tension. The turrets needed to seem dangerous, like they had a threatening aura. And I wanted the characters to seem nervous or scared to not screw up the shot. So how do you think I did with that and what would be a better way to do it in your opinion?

I think I'm finally content with my story synopsis. Hit me in a bit of inspiration as I was reading volume one of Berserk.

>Hress Dunter is handsome, devil-may-care, and known as a bounty hunter of monstrous beings known as Accursed. After saving a woman from a dark fate, Hress is placed on trial with his very life hanging in the balance. From this first falling domino Hress's own fate will be turned towards the great and mysterious WISH MOUNTAIN, where the most dangerous Accursed find their origin.
https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/37998/wish-mountain

>>18289787
I learned that people write for money on fiverr, I wonder how they're doing.

>>18293240

the only thing interesting about your story is the fact that some dudes are on a mission in a cool (although common and overused) setting and their mission control is screwed. That's an interesting start.

However, like other anons have pointed out, the dialogue is nowhere near what the real dialogue would be between two special forces operatives.
Also, the whole turret being easily disabled by some "sniper rifle" shots kinda demands some serious levels of suspension of disbelief from the reader. After all, this is the skynet factory. Don't they have some interconnected defense perimeters? Don't they have like nanobots or whatever, that would react to some two guys sneaking in through their one turret defense?

Why do they keep to the shadows? As far as i know terminators have infrared shit and motion detectors? Hell, why don't they have some form of a bioscan? Why are the robots scanning the floors? Did you take this directly from your halfway aborted playthrough of a metal gear game?


It's weak, and this is why research and preparation is needed unless you're writing for shlocks like yourself who have never read a decent book.

Finally, a positive word: I think you have some ability of describing an action sequence. I can visualise the guys jumping over obstacles and sneaking around. That's... something. Keep at it, but don't let that feeling of satisfaction from having written something last, cause that feeling is deceptive and needs to be overcome by the thought of things not being quite as good as they could. If you ever make it, you'll never have that feeling as strongly as you have now, and even though it's a thousand times better, you'll never feel as good about your writing as when you got that A on the writing assignment in 8th grade.

>>18293180
Wow, never thought I'd see someone give as bad advice as this. It's just a string of shit you shouldn't do disguised as expertise. I sincerely hope no one takes this clown seriously.

>>18293430
What's wrong with the advice? You don't need to name every error, that would probably take too long, just the most serious one.

>>18293459
You just gave instructions to turn to-the-point albeit tropey dialogue into the worst cringe unprofessional shit imaginable.
I'm phoneposting, I don't have time to do anything but stop you from irreparably bringing mediocrity to this thread.

>>18293427
>the dialogue is nowhere near what the real dialogue

It's on brand for Terminator hollywood cheese though, don't you think?

>its unrealistic

Yes, but So? Lots of books and movies are super unrealistic. I mean a lot. The Including the Terminator movies themselves. It's on brand, it's consistent with the rules of Terminator. You have big huge unbeatable super killer machines that are defeated anyways by the bravery of the hero soldiers. That's Terminator.

But I would like to try imagine a more realistic/serious depiction, something more scary and bleak, less hollywood.

>>18293498
Then I expressed myself badly: The on-the-nose dialogue (or, what you call it quite rightly: "the worst cringe unprofessional shit imaginable") is not the end product that you deliver to your publisher. It's an intermediate step on the way to good dialogue whenever you're having a trouble getting some exploitable raw material down on paper. One intentionally commits a mistake, but this mistake is such that it can easily be reworked into something good. On-the-nose dialogue makes you think about the inner states of your characters. If you are already doing this, you can skip this step. Personally, however, I find it helpful, especially because in this way you can quickly compile a long list of the characters' acute desires and fears. The dialogue that you have written in this way works like an ore deposit that you have dug up: The search work is done, now you just have to separate the worthless stones from the precious metal and refine the metal in a final step.

I think we have talked past each other. Otherwise you can answer me later when you're at home. I'd be interested to know if something still bothers you about the advice.

I am depressed and asocial

>>18293279
I find it funny how every synopsis version you post sounds like a completely different story. How is it possible for a writer to be this confused about what his story is about?

>>18293506
I'm getting the feeling you're the same anon that wrote this, just defending yourself. If so, please don't ask for critique or advice, then refuse to consider it seriously.

If not: the good terminator movies (1 and 2) didn't have this kind of shlock in them. The reason the humans won was basically luck and the fact that only one machine was sent at a time. The description in that (you)r rendition of it is that of the main skynet factory, somehow being infiltrated by two humans. It's not believable, and where the good T movies also called for some suspension of disbelief, there's basically nothing believable about that story at all. So yeah, if you WANT it to be bad, sure. Keep at it. But don't ask for advice when you're obviously immune to it.

>>18293589
Have you tried to share your writing along with a synopsis for it?

>>18293593
Oi mate. I did consider it. It's just wrong, that's all. And in Terminator Salvation, they DO infiltrate a terminator factory.

The first 2 terminators were also unrealistic. How many times did the terminator shoot at John Conner and miss? A lot. Terminators don't miss. Their vision is in slow motion and they have precision dexterity that gives them perfect aim.

Plus the whole premise of a resistance group fighting from the sewers against advanced hunter killer machines with night vision? Their camps would be found and precision bombed within a day.

Your whole criticism is that it's a cheesy hollywood action movie. But that's the premise and starting point, and therefore useless to point out. It's like saying a pepperoni pizza is bad not because it may be undercooked or lack enough cheese, maybe it's burned, but you point out that you simply don't like pepperoni pizza. This is worthless critique.

>>18293660
>Salvation
Yeah, i'm not gonna bother. Also, the only time (that i can recall) that a terminator misses John CONNOR YOU FUCKING COCK is when someone stands in the way. Haven't seen the movies in 10 years but you are delusional and immune to critique.

Keep writing shit. Keep watching anime and terminator salvation. Enjoy ngmi.

Note to anons in this thread. Don't let one edgy anon who spews hatred mire your view of the whole thread. Just ignore them and move on. Genuinely helpful anons frequent this thread but there's always the assholes that enjoy making everything a drama.

>>18293674
>critique gets critiqued
>gets butt-blasted and can't handle it

heh, ngmi

Does anyone have any advice for coming up with a plot arc and characters that doesn’t feel rehashed, contrived, or cliche these days? I’ve been worldbuilding a scifi universe after growing up on classic scifi novels, and I have large-picture plot direction ideas, but anytime I’ve tried to come up with characters and narratives for them inside this world, I just scrap everything because it feels tired and like it cheapens the world I’ve planned out.

Or do I just need a change of mindset to get over that concern?

I suppose I just need help in general on how to build narratives and characters. Most of my writing experience has been short stories with a focus on concepts, rather than character narratives, and that makes it difficult to transition into a bigger story like a novel.

>>18293740
You didn't really critique his critique though, you just kind of went on an autism ramble about why your writing is the same as popular film Terminator. In case it needs to be said: your writing is not the same as popular film Terminator.

>>18293971
That's one of the difficulties with sci-fi - the backdrop IS the main thing to many. So what's interesting is basically why things are so different from our world, and most of the times the answer is technology or aliens. And that's why, like you write, it's more easily done in short stories rather than full scale novels (since those usually need a narrative and character development etc).
I'd say you need a narrative that guides us through all that world building you've done from the perspective from someone who doesn't know a lot of things, perhaps maybe almost nothing. So then, we can have explenations to the question we (and the MC) have through us slowly having things revealed to us.

the fact that you haven't recieved any image replies with "i'm wooorld building" says something about the quality level of these threads nowadays. Don't world build, write.

>>18293976
I think he came here expecting praise, got shit, and did a mental Elliot Rodger where he refuses to accept that what he has to offer isn't what people want or appreciate. Oh well...

>>18293627
I have.

>>18293976
>>18294152
>>18293674

samefag

>>18293976
His critique isn't really a critique though, he just pointed out that the dialogue wasn't how real special forces would talk, which is retarded because it's a hollywood script. And secondly he pointed out that it wasn't realistic, which is also stupid.

>>18293971
I have a book of shorts from Niven. Some are generic, some brilliant, some pretty bad.
As long as you feel interested in what you're writing in sci-fi, don't second-guess yourself. Just don't copy science magic from other books, but that should be obvious if you're not retarded.
Also unrelated but fuck Halo, derivative milquetoast shite.

>>18294089
Thanks. That actually is like what I was already planning on doing, so it’s encouraging to hear someone else reinforce that.
>world-building
You’re also absolutely right, and for what it’s worth, I’ve been “world building” in the form of short stories, not just drawing maps and shit. It actually had me considering the idea of writing out the narrative in the form of connected short stories, like an anthology forming a bigger narrative. I’m sure I’m not the first one to think of this, but I haven’t really seen it done before— the best I can think of is things like Foundation, which was written as several short stories and novellas.

Do you really have to write from personal experience?

I got two ideas for a short story and i can't go far with them because my experience with these subjects is purely through media

>>18294089
>>18294206
Oh, and the best idea for a MC was someone completely out of place from another time (due to relativistic travel) but I felt that was too convenient and cliché of a backstory. But then like >>18294201 said, I probably should stop second-guessing myself.

>>18294214
Just write, bro. Write about horse and how quietly they purr. Make your MC an expert in Egyptology and the snake-like language they used. Describe the sex encounter in vivid detail with the beautiful starlet’s breasts feeling like lovely bags of sand. Don’t let reality stop you from telling a good story.

If your story is shit, then these details do matter.

>>18294237
My mood keeps shifting constantly and i never properly finish any story

One day i want to write anecdotes about the Eastern Front and in the other i write Thomas Liggoti ripoff detective fiction

>>18293971
I think that a good advice is to think of worldbuilding as a stage for your characters, characters as actors and plot as the play.
Actors can improvise a play, or act without a stage, there are even plays that treat actors as exposition pieces, but you can't have a play with only a stage, regardless of how fancy it is.

>>18294253
Very sage advice. The only reason I’ve put extra effort in this particular case of worldbuilding is since I started creating ideas that were spanning thousands of years, I didn’t want to make it up as I go along like I had in the past. I wanted a more cohesive picture of the world and how the plot and characters fit inside of it. I think I’ve gotten a bit miopic in my planning at this point though.

Do you think a novel where the characters are just exposition pieces work, or does that only really work in the frame of a short story?

>>18294253
Also, if it helps, my stories always started on a personal level for characters. And the main characters keep their agency, they always work for their goals. And I don;t mean *Prince fought a 1000 men with 10 so he could defeat an evil visier that is responsible for all of the corruption, then fought evil church and defeated them with words, then fought evil mages and then fixed the Astral plane* because that doesn't make sense, unless you are really good.

>>18294317
Characters as exposition pieces works if the story is good. For example, quite a few detectives and mysteries don't really care to develop the protagonist, because the focus is on how x happened and how to outsmart the opponent.

>>18294170
Cope harder idiot. If anyone's a samefag it is you, clearly the guy that posted his stupid shitty Terminator wank

>>18294331
Hadn’t even thought about detective stories, but that’s a great point. Thanks for the motivation.

Do you ever use 4chan post as writing prompts for your writing? Is this a terrible idea?

Instead of writing a full story i wrote a bunch of semi connected mini stories

I don't know why its so hard to write something from start to end

>>18294705
I did and it worked, I think.

>>18294705
I mean, in the end it's the same as picking inspiration from any other writing prompt. It's up to you to figure out if it's an actually good concept or just "everyone has life counters yours starts ticking up" bullshit.

About to take a shit load of drugs to get over this writers block. I have some codeine, lsd, shrooms, weed, amphetamines, alcohol, cocaine, diazepam. What do I take first?

>>18294868
all of them at once

>>18294868
Just drink some coffee.

i keep deleting everything i write

>>18293971
First things first:character arcs in sci fi (especially hard sci fi) CAN be light and you can get away with it because of the genre. Greg egan, to use one example is a popular hard sci fi writer and quite frankly I have never read anyone who develops their characters so sparingly, sometimes not even bothering to give a flavour of personalities at all.
Secondly, look at some character narratives like a tool for world building itself.
Maybe your character had a difficult past, and that past involves an important world event that contributes to the general sci fi worldbuilding?
If you think like that, you can be very efficient and use the narrative to expand the concepts and world, through your characters experience with the world, we glean new and sometimes quite intricate details of the world which makes it live and breathe. Does that make any sense?

I'm writing one of the coolest stories I've ever written. It's the kind I could see being turned into a movie. I really want to get it out there.

>>18295145
most things could be, movies are a weak medium.
more interesting is books which definitely couldn't be turned into a movie.

>>18294973
Do you at least finish projects before deleting them?

>>18295179
no it's just half complete stuff, bits and pieces of ideas

>>18294973
>>18295254
Alright, well, I have some advice for you here.
Don't.

>>18294868
why the fuck do you have all of those drugs

>>18294973
Did you once think that, at the age you are now, you would have already completed your first masterpiece? Do you belong to this type of writer (which is far from rare)? Then it's time to change your psychology. Or to perish like a fart in the rain. Nietzsche bros have to understand that nothing is more lumpen than a peasant who thinks he is a prince. You're probably mediocre. So what? Be the best peasant there ever was, instead of a half-assed prince.

>>18292387
How many drafts do you go through? One, two, three, or more?

>Started writing fanfiction as a young teen with the hopes of using it as practice for being an author
>12 years later, still just writing fanfiction, haven't been able to ever get in the mindset of doing my own thing

I like to think that I'm at least elevating fanfics because I try to write better than a majority of the barely-literate people who tend to by into it, but that jump into writing personal/original works seems impossible. I've only done it a few times, for a few online sites here-or-there. Any tips on making that jump?

>>18295551
What original stuff do you want to write?

What do I do if my grammar and spelling are worse than AIDS?

>>18295551
Just write a fanfic and replace the characters' names.

i'm worried that what i'm writing is too complex. it is essentially an unreliable narrator recounting a fictionalized, autobiographical account of his own life. the crux of the short story is at the very end where he changes the POV and starts speaking as he is himself. this also involves a switching of tenses. i want the reader to realize this on their own rather than just saying it outright. i've left a number of "inconsistencies" in the story, such as how the narrator knows the main character's thoughts or brief dives into yet-unexplained stream of consciousness. would it be corny to rip off borges' shtick and couch it explicitly as a story within a story within a story?

>>18289787
Which one of these books in the OP should I read first?

>>18295579
Always been a fan of short stories, and I read them more than maybe anything, so that'd be the medium, essentially, but in terms of the actual content, that's always been hard to pin down. I like George Saunders and esque stuff, maybe a little more sarcastic or satirical, but at the same time, Murakami and Kevin Brockmeier are also really influential to me and I like how sincere they can be. I guess between these three and a number of my other inspirations, some kind of magical realism would be in the cards.

>>18295591
That had honestly been my original plan as a 13/14 year old, and that's what I did for a while - just AUs where I wrote something vaguely original and threw in characters/a setting I kind of liked. Eventually, though, I got so fed up with the state of fanfiction as it is that I started trying to write more elevated works that were more true to the characters and/or setting/series out of respect/because it's what I would've liked to read that no one else was writing.

>>18294705
On the subject, do you guys have any reliable sources for inspiration for new stuff to write?

>>18289787
>Any progress on your novels?
I have uploaded a single chapter since the last thread, right now I am editing a chappie after someone was nice enough to send me a whole PDF of feedback, which is very bueno. I need to clear a few sentences up and shorten others, this is nice to know as feedback makes clear problems that might not come up as one for you.

>>18295551
>Any tips on making that jump?
Write fanfic detached from the main plot to the point you might as well just do an original story based on that idea.

>>18295674
Dreams and whatever comes to me throughout the day. If your really stuck there's writing prompt generators out there.

>>18295582
Write it out, then look over your work search up diagramming sentences.

>>18295450
Each chapter is published as a revised first draft, more or less. You often won't have the luxury to spend enough time to do multiple drafts unless you're writing up your fiction before the serial process begins, or your confident in your wpm speed to have some breathing room to do anything.

>>18295551
i'm doing the same thing. i hope i dont get in stuck in the same trap as you.

>>18295156
I want that movie adaptation money though. That's the best way to get paid as a writer. It's a long shot of course.

>>18295551
Good fanfics usually have original plot that can be rewritten into an original work.

Where the hell do you go to publish things besides stupid shit women editors like?

>>18296129
Just write a good story that appeals to lots of people and would also work as a movie then.

>>18296174
You don't. Unless by publish you mean "send it to some magazine that may be read by 100k people".

>>18295674
Yeah, it's call the world. Be interested. Pay attention. Get curious. I base everything off real life, even if it's not my own experience I read and research it. There's endless material out there.

>>18296187
don't break an arm jerking yourself off there

Where do you think ideas come from /lit/? I have never read Berserk, but since the author died and I knew he art was amazing, I decided to look at some of the concepts of his work. Somehow it seems like several of the concepts I came up for my world building are identical to his, word by word. How does this happen? I really never touched any of his works, at most I saw some of those grand image he created. I don't understand.

>>18296529
it might be a coincidence or it might not be. in any way i think you can change it just enough that it isn't sussy while still keeping the core of the thing.

>>18296529
Considering that berserk is over 20 years old (cba to look it up) and you're around 20 years old, i'd wage my money on you picking up on the ideas through the more or less subtle imitations of berserk and other media inspired by berserk and derivatives of it. Basically you have just rsubconsciously econstructed something that was deconstructed to conceal it's source. Good work, i guess.

Could someone tell me what they think about my writing? This is part of my novel, it's written in French:

Alina s'était révoltée de voir ces hommes affamés et grelottants.
C'était très certainement la dernière bonne femme de cette ville, peut-être même du monde.
Cette nuit de novembre, elle s'était glissée dans les cuisines de la boulangerie.
Elle avait attendu la fermeture, cachée dans la remise.
Et lorsqu'enfin la boutique fût fermée pour la nuit, la jeune fille se mit en action.
Elle jettait farine et levure dans les pétrins, elle courait à droite et puis à gauche.
Dans une hystérie totale, elle pétrissait jusqu'à ce que ses muscles eux mêmes ne puissent plus assurer leur office.
Elle enfournait, elle minutait, une cuisine de 8 salariés tournait à plein fourneaux, Alina filait et défilait, comme possédée.
Coupe le pain, mets le beurre, le jambon, referme.
Coupe le pain, mets le beurre, le jambon, referme.
Coupe le pain, mets le beurre, le jambon, referme.
Après quelques heures ses mains frêles saignaient de toutes parts.
Ses doigts epuisés s'enfoncaient dans la chair du pain et lui donnaient vie.
Des centaines de baguettes rougissait d'être employées à un tel dessein.
Alina, dont les forces étaient décuplées par la passion, transportait des sacs pesant quatre fois son poids.
Elle ouvrait la porte de l'intérieur, puis s'eclipsait dans la nuit.
Elle déversait tout sur la place, puis partait sans le moindre bruit.
Les croquants, qui ne dorment jamais vraiment, se reveillaient et fondaient sur l'offrande.
Mais à peine avaient ils fini de se battre qu'une autre ration arrivait sans attendre.
La jeune fille aux yeux pétillants portait une simple robe, sa peau luisait à la lueur de la lune, ses cheveux noirs, sombres comme un cilice, suivaient son passage.
Il n'y avait, ce soir là, aucune femme sur terre pour égaler sa beauté.
Et personne ne savait qui elle était, ni pourquoi elle venait et partait si vite.
à 5 heures, après plus de 10 heures de travail, elle revint du dernier voyage, et s'ecroula tout simplement sur le sol de la cuisine.
Les yeux grands ouverts, elle esquissait un petit sourire satisfait, une expression bien choisie qui ne manquerait pas, plus tard, d'enrager le boulanger.
Les levres sèches, Alina prit une légère inspiration, semblable à toutes les autres.
Et tout doucement, elle se sépara de son corps usé.
Alina aux yeux d'amandes, ne regarde pas le ciel, mais observe les hommes.
Car c'est ici bas que tes croquants partagent ta moue et respirent pour toi.

>>18297063
If you want us to give you feedback, you at least have to make it something we can read.

>>18297063
>it's written in French
>French
Shit.

>>18296187
so you're an expert on the world, huh? name every thing.

>>18297063
>>18297112
>>18297125
not frenchanon but here's a google translate-ion:

Alina had revolted to see these hungry and shivering men.
She was most certainly the last good woman in this town, maybe even in the world.
That November night, she had slipped into the kitchens of the bakery.
She had waited for it to close, hidden in the shed.
And when the shop was finally closed for the night, the young girl got into action.
She threw flour and yeast in the mixers, she ran to the right and then to the left.
In utter hysteria, she kneaded until her muscles themselves could no longer perform their function.
She put in the oven, she worked it out, a kitchen of 8 employees was running at full blast, Alina spun and paraded, as if possessed.
Cut the bread, put the butter, the ham, close.
Cut the bread, put the butter, the ham, close.
Cut the bread, put the butter, the ham, close.
After a few hours his frail hands were bleeding all over the place.
His exhausted fingers sank into the flesh of the bread and brought it to life.
Hundreds of chopsticks blushed to be used for such a purpose.
Alina, whose strength was increased tenfold by passion, carried bags weighing four times her weight.
She opened the door from the inside, then slipped out into the night.
She poured everything onto the square, then left without the slightest noise.
The crunchies, which never really sleep, woke up and melted on the offering.
But no sooner had they finished fighting when another ration arrived without delay.
The young girl with the sparkling eyes wore a simple dress, her skin shone in the moonlight, her black hair, dark as a hairshirt, followed her path.
There was no woman on earth that night to match her beauty.
And no one knew who she was, or why she was coming and going so quickly.
at 5 o'clock, after more than 10 hours of work, she returned from the last trip, and simply collapsed on the kitchen floor.
Eyes wide open, she gave a small smirk, a well-chosen expression that was sure to infuriate the baker later.
Lips dry, Alina took a light breath, similar to all the others.
And very slowly, she parted from her worn body.
Alina with the eyes of almonds, does not look at the sky, but observes the men.
Because it is here below that your crunchies share your pout and breathe for you.

>>18297461
pretty good i think but i kind of got distracted by BLOOD SOAKED BREAD

imagine the taste

Anyone else here have it as a huge pet peeve when a character says just "Fair." or "Point." No one talks like that. They at least say "That's fair," or "Good point." It makes me irrationally angry.

Want to write a Gogol style black comedy about people trapped in a castle after a snowpocalpyse happens what are some cabin fever stuff I should avoid?

>>18297546
Most people don't talk as intricately as they do in fiction. Real life it is brain dead small talk over The Office and what kind of fast food or fad music they like

>>18297546
I have never read a character say just "Fair" or "Point"

>>18297673
>Most people don't talk as intricately as they do in fiction.
Maybe in the trash you read. For me, unrealistic dialogue = garbage can. Stop trying to rationalise your shitty pseud writing.

>>18297738
I am Groot

i wanna read something like the intro of dark souls, hurl lightning at all your problems kinda shit. wrath of a god kinda shit.

>>18297738
unrealistic dialogue = realistic dialogue. Tell me when was the last time you talked to someone and they gave you a deep philosophical monologue.

>>18289787
I love calli so much.

>>18297546
I've definitely heard a few people say just "fair" before, but I've never heard or read anyone just say "point".

>>18297823
I feel like every time I catch one of her streams during writing time we have a good time.
I dunno. Maybe too much editing has made me too analytical but I never got into stream culture. I enjoy the person behind the avatar and the puppet is just there to draw people in when in reality they're playing that character.
She's a really cool person though.
I've still got pitter patters for the bird girl that I haven't watched in like a month+ now, but it's not the character I'm into. It's the girl.
In the end I was just another name scrolling by, lost to the all familiar shadows. There are books to be written, so my lamentations cannot continue forever.
The dead press on.

>>18297738
"I was reading an article on this dude," he said, "it was, uh... shit, something with an H, where he was like, uh, fuckin, uh, god, it was about like technology and how i-"
"Was i-" she said.
"What?" he said.
"Oh, sorry, nothing," she said. "keep goi-"
"Becau- oh, sorry," he said.
"No, really, it's okay," she said.
"Right, okay, so it was- you're sure?" he said.
"Yeah, absolutely," she said.
"Okay," he said. "So this guy, he said, he said, hesaidhesaidhesaid... fuck, I lost it. But it was really cool."

>>18297507
Pretty good actually, general side affect of having a nice bit of bleeding roast beef as your sandwich filling.

>>18297546
t. avoids social interactions
appreciating a counter point with 'fair' is extremely common
maybe its a brit bong or some other meme culture thing but I've never heard 'point' used in this way

>>18297816
If you write some character reciting some philosophical monologue for no reason and nobody will play him on a stage. Then your novel is not worth being written on toilet paper.
>>18297957
Unironically good. Well 6/10 mostly the latter half is still a bit unconvincing. And by the way what makes it in narration isn't usually gossip and idle talk but crucial moments. But depending it it might and then it needs realism.

>>18298308
I meant to reply to >>18297969

>>18297969
based
if this was a one off occurrence in something I were reading I'd likely appreciate it

Do you ever go back to your writing and notice your emergent style? What's yours?

>>18298308
>>18298325
>>18298336
Fucking pseuds.

>>18298353
the pinnacle of western literature

>>18298354
>amusingly clumsy and awkward dialogue
>pseudointellectual
haha what? please explain yourself
or are you just insecure at the idea that someone disagrees with you

Holy shit, do people in this thread unironically think Jeff Goldblum level rambling is what dialogue should be?

I bet their shit reads like this.
>Umm... That's right, I guess! But, well...

Have you ever read one book? Actually, have you ever even seen a movie? No one writes dialogue like how people speak unless it's for a specific purpose like with Goldblum's characters.

>>18298392
>can't articulate why a method should be practiced
>can only point the existence of precedent
masturbation addiction or naturally this retarded?
it's fun dialogue because it's a real, relatable scenario
obviously it'd get tiring because in the first instance it communicates a point which doesn't need reiteration
keep babbling and reciting what your self help books have taught you. if you'd have read more than the shallowest puddle of literature you'd know that 'muh rules' are complete bullshit and that skilled authors do whatever the fuck they want if it suits the scene and message

>>18298392
I do and read it all the time. Stop reading garbage, stop being such an annoying little bitch who thinks he's right.
Or do continue, just don't do it here, you absolute moron.

Gonna sound pretty cringe, but I've been working on a fanfiction based in the universe of the anime Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt because I have a bunch of OCs and wanted to do something with them but something like a comic is beyond my skill level as an artist and I feel more productive just writing it out. Plus I got other original ideas for fantasy shit so I feel this would be good practice if nothing else.

I've made and posted 12 chapters so far and have had to heavily edit the first four because I realized first-person point of view for this was just unnecessary as well as spotting various spelling mistakes and word misplacements because dyslexia likes to kick my ass.

Currently working on chapters 13 and 14.

>>18298422
>>18298526
NGMI

>>18298526
>and read it all the time
On Retard Road?

>>18298526
I dont read much contemporary lit
Is it that common? It'd be hilarious if anon was sperging out over something normal

>>18298562
>but I've been working on a fanfiction
Top tier cringe indeed. I get liking some shit a lot and than writing quasi fanfiction like Eragon but the real deal fucks with my brain. Don't you feel disgusted using the world and characters from someone else? Reusing condoms sounds less icky.
>>18298392
>it's for a specific purpose like with Goldblum's characters.
Or anything Tarantino. Besides, as long it's not happening all the time, it helps to make the characters sound more realistic and gives the rest of the story more authenticity if it doesn't purely consists of overly-polished shit.

>>18297063
Bump

>>18298705
>Don't you feel disgusted using the world and characters from someone else?

I'm literally just using the world as a base and adding my own shit on top of that to give it a bit more depth. As for characters, I am using none of canon ones. Just my own.

Perhaps a better term would be a fanmade spin-off or something to that effect?

>>18298767
American board, faggot. Translate it or take it elsewhere.

is there a preferred way to share drafts here? a site or something

I'm working on a graphic novel. would love some feedback. im more a visual person, so excuse my writing style compared to what you're used to when reading others subs, this may take a bit more imagination. it is a GRAPHIC novel draft after all.

https://pastebin.com/GHXysx1d

>>18298353
I don't think too much about my style. I think I get analytical with the character's personal relationships and politics. A friend told me it can get cut and dry, but it has enough information to still be interesting and keep the plot moving without bogging it down. I guess I have this habit of evoking character's body language more often than not too.

>>18298947
See: >>18291347

>>18298976
alright, ill keep it noted. not the most important at the moment because of how little dialogue there actually is.

>>18298947
I suggest you either learn how to write a proper screenplay or learn to storyboard.
There is a lot of text here, and most of it is redundant, uninformative, and difficult to read.

>>18299579
im doing the story boards on paper, draft makes enough sense to me, but ill see if i can reformat it sometime. im a visual person so i doubted how well it would take on a lit board anyways. 4k words aint too bad tho.

I have a 200 word essay due Monday on the importance of a multicultural society
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa help me /lit/

>>18299611
so 2 paragraphs? 200 words is nothing.

I need some help with grammar, and connecting speech and narration properly. If I include narration after speech, should the narration be on the same line as the speech or should it start a new line? For example, which of these would be correct?
>"Yes?" Almost suddenly, it was like the world started to blur
Or
>"Yes?"
>Almost suddenly, it was like the world started to blur

>>18299611
>200 words
KEK, are you in middle school? Jesus

>>18299611
Kek, it's a horrible thing but it does have a few advantages. Write about those
>new cuisines
>immigrants = more workers and tax payers
>said immigrants can live a better life after migrating
Etc.

>>18299715
newfag

>>18291347
>That's right," he said
This one is wrong. It's supposed to be
"That's right", he said.
Comma goes outside the dialogue tags, all the other marks go inside.

>>18299753
Ignore this, apparently it's different in english. Will delet asap but it won't let me. Why don't i look things up before i post?

>https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/41319/unnecessary-evil
>check random chapter
>shit about trans-orcs
>check another random chapter
>MC has mommy issues

Okay, who of you faggots wrote this?

>>18299938
>two 5 star reviews
what a silly site

I need your help guys, I apologize over this question but I'm torn, doubtful and quite afraid of the answer, choice.
I've got some stories I like, ideas but when it comes to actually writing them down I have two options, they're writing related but one is total (a book) and one is not as involved (A comic or graphic novel)
>Do I have any true experience writing?
No, but I enjoy it, I enjoy even writing my uni essays, flowery language and narrative though. That said, I could start to pick up the mileage and follow along with the advice on OP, that's approach 1.
>Why is the second option even one?
Simple, I know the written word can do some wonderful things, anything I might want to as a drawing it could be communicated even better as words with enough grasp on the art form, but I'm stubborn on some of these ideas being very visual first, so I would pick up both drawing (some experience, I'm no prodigy) and crafting a narrative, writing.
What should I do? I'd still make use of anything on OP but what should I do?
Being more pragmatic, silly idea to even think of this right now but, which one could lead to better remuneration? I know more about option 2 and publishing than option 1.
Apologies over the question but I need some help.

>>18300049
Which one do you think you'll want to get back to working on the most? Take that one. (i'm guessing your second thing).
Which of the things you work on is not as important as working on something in general. Ideas don't need to be finished from start to finish instantly. Some ideas need to perculate, others can be written in a night. There is no right answer at this stage since you haven't actually started working.

inb4
>shit advice, finish something or you'll have a bunch of unfinished work like the rest of the fags in these threads

That's a future problem that might never become an actual problem. If you realise you've actually been working on stuff for years and nothing is coming near being finished, then you have this problem. Not now. Good luck!

>>18291347
Is this valid too

>>18300211
Different languages have different rules.

>>18300259
My dialogue sucks shit anyway

>>18300272
But it will suck a tiny bit less to read it if you at least get the formatting right.

>>18300278
I used to format it in that style but im gonna do it properly now, thank you anons

>>18300211
Do it however you want, as long as it's consistent.

>>18300324
This. I don’t know why people here are so fixated in stifling their own creativity and voices to appease anonymous people online.

>>18291347
Beautiful, saved. I'd like to add that while the latter two "correct" formats are indeed correct, they're also extremely ugly. If I'm going to mix dialogue and exposition beyond a simple tag, I personally always try to start and end with dialogue, or nest the dialogue within a paragraph which is at least 3 or 4 lines long. For a short, single line of dialogue there's nothing uglier than short dialogue plus short exposition.

>>18297063
Je l'aime. Qu'est-ce le genre, ta poste me semble comme une piece absurde, avec ca femme qui glisse en boulangerie pour faire le pain pendant la nuit toute seule.

>>18300340
>Anon, your main character should talk and think as if they're from the 19th and early 20th century
>Story is set in the 2010's
>Character comes from a working-class family
I don't know why people here put too much stock into these advices sometimes.

>>18300340
its grammar

>>18300375
Mostly referring to the other bullshit that goes on with this General.

>>18300350
>working class people can't be smart with rich vocabularies
I'm a high school dropout. I have had to actively filter my natural use of language for my entire life to avoid alienating people who don't understand me when I speak naturally. People hate exceptionalism. They pretend like they don't, but their appreciation for the novelty of intelligence tends to end where their ego begins, in my personal experience. This is a dynamic I know painfully well from personal experience, and I actively and deeply fucking DETEST its influence on literature. The rest of you can keep chasing each other down to the lowest common denominator, but I'm not going to participate. Even if it means I'm never read by anyone, I'm not willing to make an inch of concession on my artistic vision for the benefit of idiots and their apologists.

>>18300404
pseuds obsess over aesthetics and have a narrow view of what should be practiced
anime fans are ignorant and somehow always certain in their anime formed opinions
writers are all mentally unwell and have personality problems, makes discussion around lit and writing typically retarded

>>18300422
Nigga, no person, especially some one is in their late teens or early twenties would talk with rich vocabulary. I know that for certain.

>>18300429
And for some reason, I’ll still take the anime fans over the pseuds every time, for at least, they try to be helpful.

>>18300422
sounds like you don't show enough push back
that or you're in a seriously black or black equivalent community
I'm similar in being lower class with intellectual interests and the most shit I get for having an erratic vocabulary is some light ribbing
I get a bit of shit for being into nerd stuff like philosophy and history but it's pretty easy to get people off your case with a laugh and a 'fuck off'

>>18300439
Yeah, because the rest of you fucking shame us for it and brutally attempt to enforce through social pressure the moderation of exceptionalism. I know this for certain, nigga.

New thread
>>18300451

>>18300444
anime fans are secretly far more sinister
pseuds are easy to dismiss, even someone new to literature and writing can tell they're full of hot air and not worth listening to
anime fans seem like they want to help and speak of their inane opinions with such confidence I could see a beginner getting misled by their advice

>>18300450
I grew up in one of the richest suburbs in America. I'm not bragging about it. I've spent most of my life running from it. I was bullied mentally, emotionally, and physically for being smarter than the almost exclusively white children of the elite; for being who I actually am. I wish this didn't need to be said, but to avoid any racial shit flinging I'd like to point out that I am white as well, so there was no racial component at all.

I am pushing back, finally. I push back with my writing, even if it amounts to nothing more than screaming into the void.

>>18300462
That’s their own fault then. People here shouldn’t take what’s said here with confidence. Have some common sense and weed out the bullshit. It’s what I always do when seeking advice or critique.

>>18300422
That's great, but take a step back.
I see this shit all the time. Writers write writers. It makes me physically cringe every damn time. Dont do that shit, ever, unless somehow the cocaine and your jew shill publisher manage to inscribe your name on the American consciousness by pure luck.

>>18300476
It takes more than common sense. Common sense dictates that anyone with a seemingly well formed opinion which is eloquently stated is someone worth at least paying attention to. The problem is that a lot of these opinions are based on completely spurious logic and nearly always fall back on an appeal to trends in the commercial market or just plain old consensus. You have to actually think about the things you come into contact here. Common sense doesn't really apply, since there's almost nothing our human instincts, the parts of our brain which haven't developed much past being hunter-gatherers, would find "common" about 4chan.

>>18300476
>pretending like he's never been an unsure newfag
it takes a modicum of experience to identify bullshit
sure, if you're new you should be studying and practicing to build the sensibilities to discern absurd opinions from quality but it's a mongolian bow stringing forum, socializing is the main reason people are posting
and it's both adverse to the social aspect as well as to the productive aspect when pseuds/anime fans give garbage advise
fuck em both

>>18300490
I'm not interested in writing facsimiles of life personally, but you obviously have a point to a point. I myself probably wouldn't write a concrete-pourer as someone who quotes Hegel over lunch break, for example. Maybe that is because it seems unrealistic. Faulkner I think was one of the best there ever was in the way he made uneducated characters have a kind of intelligence that seeps through the cracks in their vernacular.

>>18300518
Oh I don't see status as a marker for intelligence, never mind sociability or eloquence. But I've too often seen writers overstepping in their dialogue for no other reason that they failed to put a sentiment in less enough words.

>>18297063
Why write in french when you can speak english? english is a much more versatile and subtle language.

>>18298392
Humans arent perfectly articulate. People fumble all the time. Try interacting with another human.

>>18299611
god i hate this fucking bait. it works everytime.

>>18301998
But you shouldn't write like that in dialogue. You need to strike a midway point between Shakespeare and autistic kid with a stutter. I'm really curious to see which examples you're drawing from.

>>18302050
as long as you dont go overboard and do it every character all the time, it's fine. People talk in strange ways. Sometimes they'll say something and then negate it immediately. There's nothing wrong with trying to capture that.

>>18301998
Any book I've read that tries to emulate "real" dialogue loses in clarity whatever it might gain in immersion. It's just not a medium well suited for it.

>>18300344
Thank you, I don't know what genre it is, I guess it is mine when I am in utter despair

>>18301987
I am a French native speaker, I also write in english, but it depends