/lit/ - Literature

there's something after death

>>18289931
There unironically isn't

>>18289931
Why do you want there to be something?

I look forward to the tranquility of darkness.

>>18289931
What the fuck you were before being born?
If you are worried about post-death time period then you should be worried about pre-birth time period.

Any speculation about post-death if futile.

My book series is pretty much tailored to people exactly like you that seek such things in their final hours.
We're all anonymous though so as much as I wanna shill you'll have to suffice with a frog that jumped on my car a few years ago.

>>18289931
There is something after death. After death you repeat this life you have lived over and over, infinitely for all time. Nothing changes. You cannot change anything or make any actions different than ones you have made in this life. Your only choice is whether upon hearing this you wail and moan about it, something you will repeat for infinity, or take it as an imperative to live a life worth repeating infinite times.

>>18289931
And yet you go to sleep every night. curious!

>>18289938
But he better pick the right church because god can't be a member if all of them

>>18289989
Why about the right mosque or temple?

>>18289963
>>18289964
That's the thing you guys don't seem to understand. We are talking about a literally void you can't "define" anything there's no tranquility not even "darkness" no conciousness and this is why pure nothingness if so terrifying.

>>18290003
The absence of consciousness, of sentience, is in and of itself tranquility, by comparison to the cacophonous noise of being a person.

>>18289984
It's not exactly the same; it is always skewed by entropy.

>>18289989
God very much is a member of all of them whether you like it or not. He's also a member of every temple, mosque, what-have-you.

>>18290011
Entropy is a meme for dumb-fuck physicists.

>>18289987

>>18289931
>I don't want to be in an endless void for eternity
For one, don’t become a Buddhacuck, because they consider this a desirable end

>>18290003
If you believe in total nothingness then does you being nothing before your birth terrifies you?

>>18290027
Our only measure of time is perception. Thus, in the absence of perception, time can pass in an instant - no matter how much time.

We die. The universe faces its death. All of its particulate condenses under the slow pangs and pulls of gravity. A crunch eventually occurs... then a bang. And that particular, organised by the immense weight of the crunch, will continue to disperse in similar formations. Now and again, the formation that creates us occurs, but this is never to the same decimalisation, ever so slightly askew.

I'd hesitate to estimate how many universes come and die between our existences. It doesn't matter. It all transpires in an unknown instant. We live from consciousness to consciousness, no matter the space in-between.

>>18289931
why aren't we in this void right now? how much do we really understand about reality...

>>18290000
That's why they are always fighting

>>18289931
>an endless void for eternity ... brings me extreme anxiety
interesting, I think the opposite. To me it's scary to think that we'll never get to rest. Sometimes you need a nap

>>18289931
>. I don't want to be in an endless void
You won't "be" at all. Remember what it was like before birth? That's what you're in for. No you, no nothing. And that means no anxiety.

>>18290021
Can I go to heaven without going to any place of worship beforehand?

>>18290061
Nice thought experiments retard.
I agree with you on the perception of time.

there's something after death but its an endless void

>>18290095
>Nice thought experiments retard.
Do you know where we are?

>>18290103
Wherever "we" are we do feel pain and creatures in my surroundings also feel pain and I don't like this bitch. The epistemological paradox that you have mentioned right now is good. But pain is way too real man.

>>18290122
Maybe I'm just insane, but I feel like now and again, I remember glimmers of those old worlds. There are faces I can think of that give me great warmth, places that make me want to shed a tear, but they are places I've never seen, nor people I've ever met. And yet, they evoke such a strong emotion.

>>18290061
According to Schopenhauer, our individual existences are like thoughts or dreams occurring within the will (the universal consciousness that consists of volitional states). We are no separate or isolated from the will, merely local instantiations of it. When we die, we return to it, albeit at a "lower grade of objectification" . Nothing is essentially lost but reconfigured, just as we consist of the same matter that made up the dinosaurs

>There is not a grain of dust, not an atom that can become nothing, yet man believes that death is the annihilation of his being.

This plausibly also provides a mechanism for reincarnation too. If we are merely an objectification of the will, all we are is the will, and our perception ourselves as a distinct individual (the principium individuationis) is merely an illusion. We are actually the entire world, everything that is conscious is an expression of the same underlying reality.

So there will always be a "you", your body may perish, but there will always be a consciousness that experiences itself and you just happen to be experiencing one of them in this life.

>>18290146
I don't know if I can subscribe to an aether-like ideology of universal will. That idealises something pulling strings we can't observe. What I propose is a simplified version: when matter is condensed, it will take a specific form. When you compress carbon, you will eventually come to diamond. Therefore, under the ultimate pressure of universal scale gravity, there is in all likelihood, an apex to its compression before a 'bang'. There is likely a specific order that the matter in the universe would arrange itself into under the ever increasing pressure.

If you always have that same formation, the bang will always look similar, and its dispersion thereafter following a similar pattern.

>>18290094
Actually yes, if you sincereley repent for all your sins before death

>>18290091
Actually no one remembers before being born. Even childhood is like a dream. That's what is fascinating about life.

>>18289931
If there's nothing after death you don't have to worry about being in an endless void. You wouldn't have any consciousness and wouldn't be able to feel or even be aware of anything.

>>18290094
Maybe, just live righteously. It couldn't hurt.

I don't really believe in 'heaven.' I believe there is something after death, but no one here can tell you definitively what it is.

>>18290133
I know this feel.
Silence is the right answer for such matters. I also see these glimmers of dreams that I saw and forgotten long ago and frequent cases of Déjà vu. What we can say?

>>18289931
>atheism: live your life as if it's the only one you have
>Christianity: live life as if the end of the world could happen at any moment
>Buddhism: live life so as to be rewarded with karma in your next life
take your pick, no religious stance or lack of religious stance wants people to spend their time being anxious over death

>>18290170
So if I accepted and took responsibility for my actions I would be good? or do I have recognize some kind of god to do so ?

>>18289931
>I don't want to be in an endless void for eternity
Don't worry, "you" won't be.

>>18290003
Why be terrified of something that you will not and in fact can not experience?

>>18290200
I don't know - but it's like I miss people that never seem to have existed. And I wonder if perhaps, my choices 'this time around' meant... I never met people that have been core to my being for aeons. Sometimes I see places I do know, and whilst they take a most familiar form, they are also slightly alien - things like, the paint will be a different colour. It's different enough that it's not the same, but so similar, it may as well not be any different at all.

I have devoted this life to making the lives of others better. I can only hope to meet those people again 'next time around'.

There's no evidence for souls or reincarnation. Consciousness is just the result of advanced brains.

>>18290146
I wonder why Schopenhauer seems more known for his pessimism than his metaphysics? I've seen him quoted more for depressing quotes than ones about the will or the illusion of individuality. In the first place, why doesn't his metaphysics give him a more positive outlook on life? I don't necessarily disagree with his pessimism, though.

>>18290215 me
What I'm asking is, do I need a spiritual entity to seek forgiveness or can I do the process myself?

>>18290163
>That idealises something pulling strings we can't observe
On the contrary. A key part of Schopenhauer's argument is that the will is immediately accessible to us by introspection. He rejects the subject-object dichotomy and asserts that what we find in ourselves is an essential facet of reality. Why should our consciousness be "less real" than mere physical forces and energies, which can only be understood as mathematical abstractions? Whereas our own perceptual states are the truest and closest thing of which we can be sure definitely exists, all physical objectivity is merely notional and inferred by proxy through these perceptual states.

He uses a brilliant metaphor to illustrate the idea. There used to be a device called a magic lantern which was an image projector that took transparent prints or paintings and flashed them onto a wall.

At a certain festival in Germany, there was a cylindrical, vertical magic lantern that rotated and filled the walls of the room with projections of various animals. In this case, the will is the light that projects through each transparent image of the animal, just as our own consciousness seems to emerge from outside of us, and the world therefore consists only of this inner light as it projects out and in doing so traces out our figures.

Also, the notion of a stable external physical reality collapses when you consider quantum mechanics. Prior to observation the "true state" of the quantum is in a suspended "superpositional" state in which it occupies or could occupy all of its possible future paths. Only the act of conscious observation determines the fact that ends up getting observed. Objective reality without an observer to parse it is an entangled, indefinite low grade fuzz.

>>18290233
I've also been to places and felt like I had been there before. Almost like I had come home.

>>18290233
>'next time around'.
Stop being dogmatic about the things you can't possibly know.

>>18290235
Ah, yes the materialist has finally sort out the theory of everything.

>>18290242
Personally I think his pessimism is unwarranted and is an unnecessary personal addition to his metaphysics, blemishing it with his subjectivity and opinion.

But he does reason his way into his pessimism. As follows:

1. The fundamental essence of reality is irrational, mindless, and indifferent.
2. Therefore there is no god, as god must be rational, minded, and caring
3. The absolute reality inevitably creates suffering, hunger and pain, because its essential nature (how it creates living beings as its instances) is through hunger, and striving. So our pain is a necessary fact of conscious existence.

So according to his theses, suffering is constitutive and necessary of existence rather than some kind of error or fluke. Hence pessimism.

>>18290262
Your two statements contradict each other.
>NOOO DON'T SUPPOSE
>NOOO DON'T BE MATERIALIST
Could you fuck off instead? It seems evident you have nothing to contribute.

>>18290246
>Why should our consciousness be "less real" than mere physical forces and energies, which can only be understood as mathematical abstractions?
Because unbeknown to him, but known to us, are that our brains are driven by electrical signals. They have a mathematical abstraction in and of themselves.

>>18290198
>>18290170
I'm done larping
Would the morally be that even if there's no afterlife, I Would live happier if I said sorry and worked with and moved past my issue?
Even as an none believer

>>18290246
>emerge from outside of us,
From inside I mean

>>18289931

I don't understand people that think like this
Do you understand that people that commit suicide do it because they can't stand living anymore and hope death is like sleeping and never waking up and never again having any problem?
If they thought death is not the end they wouldn't comit suicide. You kill yourself to end it all, not to find yourself living in another real/dimension called afterlife.

When religion ruled the west, fear of hell was used to control people.

the scary thing is the afterlife, not not existing anymore

>>18290275
>Because unbeknown to him, but known to us, are that our brains are driven by electrical signals.
He definitely knew that. But those signals only exist as phenomenon, they are just a lower grade of the will's objectification as it is represented to us. Consciousness isn't electricity.

>>18290275
>>NOOO DON'T SUPPOSE
Never said that. Just said that don't take your thought experiments as truths. Stop being bitter.

>>18289931
>I don't want to be in an endless void for eternity the thought of that brings me extreme anxiety
You won't, you'll just simply cease to exist.

>>18290299
>Consciousness isn't electricity.
... Consciousness is definitely electricity, unless rocks are judging us, or we stretch semanticity to its very limits in an indigo-child type ideology to allow anything and everything to mean consciousness.

>>18290301
And yet, you still have nothing to contribute... Isn't there somewhere else you could be shitposting?

>>18290314
>And yet, you still have nothing to contribute
What do you mean by that? What are you contributing to the thread "better" than me other than pop dogmas of current era?

>>18290327
>shitposter continues to shitpost about being too clever to be a shitposter by shitposting about shitposting
Don't you have a frog thread to make?

>>18290337
Who do you think of them gets to play with the switch next

>>18290337
I think your mistaken. This board isn't your bugman circle safe space. Please go back to your shithole >>>/sci/

>>18290341
I don't know but the contrarian faggot seems determined to derail the thread for nothing more than an ego-stroke. Imagine being that type of useless wanker in a perpetual loop.

>>18289931

>>18289931
I think the soul is immortal.

I mean, if we have a soul (which we do in my humble opinion that i could elaborate but i won't), it's necessary that after our body dies it doesn't bring the soul together. A soul dying would mean disappearance, as they aren't material and thus can't be renovated into other forms of energy and matter like the body can (see conservation of energy).

Now our question becomes: can the soul disappear if it cannot die like the body can?

Disappearance, going from being to not-being.

I seriously don't know rn and couldn't bother enough to think about this just to make a dumb 4chan post that might not be seen or receive replies.

>>18290359
He isn't "contrarian" just a materialist bugman.

>>18289931
Asking if there's something after death assumes that Closed Individualism is true. "You" might die and stop existing every single moment. Empty Individualism and Open Individualism could just as easily be true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JomlwxRAtZo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9unZn75Moo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhoqz4PEtkU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP3dCVhOnzE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrGoOlPepC8

>>18290374
I've always wondered about his image. Not saying it is inherently wrong but I take it to represent reincarnation, and if so how does this explain population growth?

>>18290359
So you're new to /lit/ ? 80% of all threads are just two guys doing the benpies stick.
It's start to get funny if you try too analyze their behavior because it's rooted in something very "neurodiverse" in normal terms autistic
Pic related its a bugman getting ownd neobugman.
When you learn the formula behind makes it very funny to see

>>18290314
>t. doesn't understand the hard problem of consciousness

>>18290374
this really is the best response to OP, I can't really think of a really plausible conception of conscious experience in relation to death other than this image. not sure i believe it though, it's just the idea that is most congruent to our own conscious experience/lack of experience.

>>18290027
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIa9hjsIQJ4

>>18290402
>how does this explain population growth?
Most people are NPCs

>>18289931
>I don't want to be in an endless void for eternity
Why not? Eternal life sounds appealing until you realize how much suffering you will endure in your infinite lifespan. No existence = no suffering.

>>18290402
Other animals are going extinct

>>18289931
>I don't want to be in an endless void for eternity the thought of that brings me extreme anxiety

The Denial of Death by Ernst Becker

>>18290430
Why don't people ask themself if what they are going to say is something Sheldon Cooper would say?
>because logics some how is a new word for autism

>>18290374
How can you try making any argument involving not-being and time?

Time in fact is a geometric property of the universe perceived in a certain way by the human mind. Time is inherently tied to space, there can be no time without space. And space can either be occupied or not, and non-occupation of space isn't not-being. Death, a type of not-being, can't be tied to time because it is something independent of space, something cannot not-be and still be tied to it.

>>18290430
I think that calling it a problem of 'consciousness' is a deliberate farce to misrepresent information through a vague overlap of ideas. Consciousness, as in the sentience that makes people people and aware, is definitely a measurable thing insofar that we use it as a metric for whether people are technically dead or not.

Consciousness as a nebulous abstract of universal will is not, and I think, almost cheating by parallelising itself with something definite and provable.

>>18290461
>there can be no time without space
Bullshit, there can be no space without time.

>>18290314
All is consciousness but not necessarily conscious

>>18289931
Yes. Follow Christ for eternal life in paradise

>>18290471
Not OP but
consciousness only exist in the "now" so It would be stupid to try to explain the experience with time
Time only deal with the past (memories) now (experience) and the future (idea, forsight)
where the other 2 doesn't help to explain the relationship between now(experience) and "none"now (no experience)

>>18290471
Both statements are true.

Space and time are in fact the same thing. Separating them is the perspective of pre-modern physics, born from a newtonian perspective of the universe where space is only the stage for events to happen.

Space and time are the same thing, there can be no space without time and no time without space.

A close analogy would be like saying there can be a plane without an y axis or a line without the x axis.

I may be bullshitting, i don't know much about ontology or the history of the philosophy of time, but i certainly know one thing or two about physics.

>>18290374
Come on man this argument has been refuted ad nauseum

>>18290544
How annoying would @nauseum look? owo

>>18290542
Why does time move only in one direction then? Seems odd to me that in "spacetime" the time component only moves towards the future.

>>18290558
>moves towards the future.
It's the eternal present you retarded cunt.

>>18290574
My experience seems to have continuity. If only present existed I would have no memory of anything and my experience would be spontaneously fresh and new every moment, but it's not.
And I was replying to him about the physical conception of time, not necessarily about the experiential aspect.

>>18289931
Wrong place to ask

>>18289931
>endless void for eternity
that implies you experience time after dead, after dead there is nothing, bno consciences, no experience, not the color black, no you, no thoughts, no feeling, you're dead.

>>18290034
It’s not desirable as much as inevitable

>>18290558
Not OP but
Do you know what a metaphors are and what Metonymy are?
>Both are things autistic people have a hard time with

>I don't want to be in an endless void for eternity the thought of that brings me extreme anxiety
you won't be, you just won't be (if there's nothing after death)
you being afraid of it is just your self preservation instinct being dead itself is not a bad experience by definition since its not an experience at all

>>18290468
I don't think it's deliberate, it's just that we have one word to represent two concepts that are similar on the surface level.

One one hand is the behavioral, external sense of "consciousness" that can (or at least it is strongly indicated can) be explained via a complete understanding of the biological processes and structure of the brain or whatever analogous organ(s) exist in other creatures. This is not disputed: pretty much everyone can conceive of a complete understanding of human behavior through understanding the brain + it's processes completely.

The part that throws the wrench in the works is the experiential, subjective, qualitative consciousness that has so far not even been proven to exist, although to each individual human it is the most "real" thing possible from an epistemological/solipsistic viewpoint. Science does not explain this and, as the hard problem shows, does not appear to even have the 'firepower' to explain it.

Clearly the two concepts are related: after all, I am expressing the behavior of writing about experiential consciousness on an imageboard. This means that some mechanical aspect of the brain is capable of recognizing the conscious "movie" or subjective life, yet it appears from this perspective that experiential consciousness is just an abstraction of information stored in the brain, as the brain can only reason (as far as we can tell...) about information stored somehow in the brain. You can take drugs to see that conscious experience is affected by the physical state of the body, but this is obvious. (aside: perhaps the ability to identify and reason about qualitative experience is a good definition for biological sentience?)

The only real objection to the abstraction idea is really the "gut feeling" that nobody can shake. If consciousness is just an illusion, then why is it literally the realest thing humans experience? What is it made out of? If it is an abstraction, then somehow this abstraction or "information" or "illusion" has been given form via whatever the hell qualia is. It's all fucking crazy to consider.

Objective and subjective lenses are so ingrained in our worldview, our language, our reasoning, etc. etc. yet the idea of a subjective and experiential aspect to reality appears completely irreconcilable with an empirical, objective conception of reality that science is formed upon. It's mind-boggling.

There aren't any promising avenues to crack this question, but there are plenty of quantum idiots and mathematical wizards playing around with the idea trying to explain it in a scientific materialist point of view, but what I think (not that anybody cares...) is that humans are simply reaching hard, insurmountable epistemological limits about the reality we inhabit. I think that beyond this limit lay some sort of "transcendental" aspect of reality that is unknowable (but... perhaps should be treated with due respect?-- call it some conception of "god").

Life is crazy.

>>18290544
explain/link, i've never heard a refutation.

>>18289931
The nothingness after death will be nothing; not bad nor good, it'll be nothing. It'll be the same as sleeping when you have no dreams. It'll be over in an instant. Or the same as before life. Idk about you but my earliest memories were a few seconds of darkness, then my earliest memory where i was a baby and my mom woke me up from my nap and carried me outside to the daycare's playground to get my older sister. Idr what it looked like but i remember that the playground looked massive to me, like a 4 story building or something. You think that after death will be like the few seconds of darkness before my first memory, when in reality it's the time before that, which i don't remember. I can't remember it because i didn't exist. In the same way, you won't exist to experience any discomfort or displeasure at not experiencing anything.

>>18290638
Homonym is the word you are looking for

>consciousness is just an abstraction of information stored in the brain
I disagrees here
consciousness is experience, stimulating
>stored in the brain
I would define this as the past not connect directly with consciousness, because if you only have information stored in brain wouldn't make you conscious.
B is part of A but not A as a whole
Arthur wrote about this in
"The world as will and idea" if you care to read it fren

>>18290742
The way I wrote that was a little contrived, so to be clear I didn't mean to assert that "consciousness is just an abstraction", I just meant that from the typical, scientific materialist it necessarily APPEARS to be.

You are correct about the "stored information" not making you conscious-- consciousness when viewed at as an eMeRgEnT pRoPeRtY has a clear continuity/temporal aspect to it, but what I was getting at is that the physical, neurological processes that we can correlate to experiential consciousness are stored in the brain (and not in the bottle of water I'm drinking-- my conception of said bottle comes from photons hitting my eye and traveling to my brain, thus being in my brain).

It's hard to identify the connection between physical, neurological processes and experiential consciousness without actually trying to claim that the former creates the latter, which is baseless. From our subjective stand as human beings, we know that the physical state of our body/brain has an effect on our experiential consciousness, but we cannot say that the experience emerges from the materialist understanding of the former.

I hope that made sense.

>>18289931
Just do Ayahausca and see what death is like for yourself, experiencing it is going to be way better than anything you can read online/in a book.