/lit/ - Literature

The Horse, the Wheel, and Language by David Anthony is probably the most notable recent work.

>>18283495
What in the nazi bullshit is this?

>>18283495
This >>18283522 and
- J. P. Mallory : In Search of the Indo-Europeans - Language, Archaeology and Myth
- Mate Kapovic : The Indo-European Languages
- M. L. West : Indo-European Poetry and Myth
- Calvert Watkins : How to Kill a Dragon - Aspects of Indo-European Poetics
- Everything by Dumézil

>>18283495
This >>18283522
Other similar scholars to check out are Renfrew and Gimbutas (not all agree on everything)
Georges Dumezil's books on mythology are excellent (especially Mitra-Varuna)
And of the course the literature; Homer, Beowulf, Eddas, Vedas, Celtic myths, etc.

>>18283532
>NOOOO YOU CANT JUST RESEARCH AN ANCIENT PEOPLE GROUP WHICH LEFT MASSIVE CULTURAL AND GENETIC IMPACT ON EUROPE THIS IS LITERALLY NAZISM!1!1

>>18283532
OP might be a tard, but it's still a legitimate topic, more worthy than just your "Oh noes! Nutzees!"

>>18283533
>>18283522
Thank you frens

>>18283532
Faggots in identity crisis trying to cope with the 2000 years semitic past of the West.

>>18283547
>>18283548
I'm refering mainly to the meme, with the big fascist logo on the skyfathers chest

>>18283533
Bernard Sergent and Émile Benveniste are also must-reads if you know French.

>>18283552
It's a Satanist logo not fascist.

>>18283555
oh fuck off

and checked

>>18283552
It's just a fucking meme.

>>18283546
If someone is gonna go this route, they may as well go with the various Vedic scriptures. Bhagavad Gita is probably the best starting point.

>>18283532
>>18283552
Do you also react that way whenever you see a hammer and sickle?

>>18283552
That symbol was appropriated by the nazis, just like the swastika. The swastika and sonnenrad were originally a proto indo-european religious symbol.

>>18283566
And memes are the battlefield of ideology, the whole qanon conspiricy was memed into existence by rightoids as well.

>>18283546
>>18283567
>Vedas
>indo european
WE WUZ BRAHMINZ AND SHIET

>>18283551
Do you think im a LARPagan or some shit?
Fuck off sperg.

>>18283495

>>18283570
no, I don't like people who fetishise the ussr it's fucking retarded. But people who larp as the soviets are normally just middle class college kids, they grow out of it. Nat-soc is pure mental poison.

>>18283582
You meme image suggest more larp and we wuzzing aspects than pagans

>>18283580
Are you retarded?

>>18283576
just admit your fascists for one
we already know, your posting on 4channel

>>18283589
>But people who larp as the soviets are normally just middle class college kids, they grow out of it
You'd be surprised
But thanks for proving that cucks have double standards

>>18283593
That was my question to you

>>18283587
I want to say for the record that the book by Levis & Pereltsvaig is about BTFOing the Renfrewian "Out of Anatolia" thesis.

>>18283546
>>18283567

My apologies, just saw that you did mention the Vedic texts. those are probably the "best" in that they are closest to the original, now unknown, source.

>>18283576
Solar-wheel, or sonnenrad-type symbols have existed for millennia, but I don't know of any example of that particular design with 12 "arms" and the ring which predate the 1930's Wewelsburg sonnenrad.

>>18283595
Hello there, fellow fascist

>>18283598
Socialism as an ideology isn't inherently reprehensible, even if it's execution has been. Fascism indicates you are a total cunt through and through.

>>18283602
reddit spacing

>>18283495
Good recommendations already, I will add Empires of the Silk Road by Beckwith and The Religious Attitudes of the Indo-Europeans by Gunther.

>>18283600
Are you implying the Vedas are not Indo European?
>>18283602
No worries, but yes the Gita is perhaps a better entry

>>18283595
>>18283605

*ahem*

Fuck niggers

>>18283576
fake. sig runes were invented by the germans after they settled

>>18283610
Socialism is the pre-stage to communism, retard. It serves no other function.
>Fascism indicates you are a total cunt through and through.
Thanks for proving that cucks have double standards

>>18283615
>Are you implying the Vedas are not Indo European?
Of course, how the fuck it would be otherwise?

>>18283616
There we go.
I just always find it ridiculous when you deny being a fascist while spouting fascist ideology. It's a political term not an insult.

>>18283601
The Anatolia-thesis seems pretty debunked at this point, but there might be something to it in that the Anatolian branch of languages (Hittite, Luwian, etc.) become distinguished at a MUCH earlier date than all the rest.

>>18283629
So you are retarded

>>18283637
So you are another We Wuzzer retard.

>>18283610
>Socialism as an ideology isn't inherently reprehensible, even if it's execution has been. Fascism indicates you are a total cunt through and through.

>>18283610
Marxism is an inherently reprehensible ideology.

>fascim
What do you think this word means? Do you know what fascim is? The economics of it? Which historical leaders were fascists and why are they fascists? Are you aware of any fascist political theory?

>>18283622
>one ideology aims to creat wealth, equality and freedom as it's ultimate aim, promoting democracy and agency in all aspects of life.
>the other you subsume your whole identity and self of self to a group identity that will be controlled by a war loving, unelected elite. Giving up all autonomy.

There's no equivalence.

>>18283640
??
What do you suggest the Vedas are then? How do you explain the direct mythological links to other forms of Indo European strands? How do you explain Sanskrit?
The absolute state of retards

>>18283621
Hmmm. Well I’ve heard different opinions on origins of the sonnerad, but i know for a fact that the swastika was appropriated by the germans.

>>18283648
>one ideology aims to creat wealth, equality and freedom as it's ultimate aim, promoting democracy and agency in all aspects of life.
Utopianism
>>the other you subsume your whole identity and self of self to a group identity that will be controlled by a war loving, unelected elite. Giving up all autonomy.
Communism

>>18283648
You’re an absolute retard. Do you seriously think that your definition would come off as even remotely impartial?
Have sex.

>>18283650
How do you explain South Asian imagery in Vedas? How do you explain no references to any places outside of south Asia? How you explain that Vedas were written before Aryan invasion?
The absolute state of We Wuzzers

>>18283640
The languages of the Asian subcontinent derive from the same source as languages such as Greek, German, etc. And as these languages spread out from the Pontic-Caspian steppe around approximately 3,000 BC, so too did their religions and customs, slowly evolving along their separate paths. Example: Indra (India), Zeus (Greece), and Taranis (Gaul), are the same being, just represented differently across distance and time. The Brahmin caste you are referring to is also one of the elements of this invasion.

>>18283662
>How do you explain South Asian imagery in Vedas?
The same reason for Pelasgian imagery in Greek mythology, retard - mixing of cultures, in this case with Dravidian. That doesn't change the fact that Vedas are formed on Indo European basis
>How do you explain no references to any places outside of south Asia?
Thanks for proving my point retard, the Vedas preserve memory of pre-Indian (Indo-European) legacy
>How you explain that Vedas were written before Aryan invasion?
The stories are mostly from the Indo-European oral tradition before they invaded India. The Dravidian flavours were added later when they were written down.
Are you some angry pajeet or what?

>>18283675
>Few words sound similar
>This is due to the same origin
Woah

>>18283682
Okay you're baiting, fuck off poo

>>18283680
>Yeah man they bring in Vedas with them
>Yeah there is no imagery outside of South Asia because it was meant for natives
>Yeah they changed their sacred texts just to appeal to some inferior that they enslaved and conquered
You fucking we wuzzers man.

>>18283707
Okay you're baiting, fuck off poo

>>18283707
See the role of the Vanir in Germanic mythology: the incorporation of older, native culture with that of the newcomers. When different cultures coexist, they tend to synthesize over time.

>>18283495
JP mallory's 'in search of the indo-europeans' is a very good book. a black housemate came into my room once, saw it on the shelf, and asked 'why they lookin for 'em, they is lost?'

>>18283631
Sup fellow trannyhater

>>18283707
please stop. you're embarrassing us.

>>18283726
>coexist
Funny fucking word. Aryans were totally brutal. All the dark skins were nigger slaves. And they still are even in the current era.

>>18283635
I find Hittology really neat because it's the only branch of Indo-European studies that can really get anything "new". We can't get, say, Homer 2: Dorian Boogaloo, or the neo-Eddas, or the secrets of the Druids or whatever, but we can totally dig up and translate some new Hittite tablet.

I also find it really neat that they so clearly fit the "Distant sky father and ruling Thunder God" motif. You often find people trying to fit every pantheon as being headed by Dyeus because Zeus/Jupiter is in charge of the Olympians, but for the Hittites the head honcho is Tarhunt (or whatever the fuck variant of that you want to use), and the Dyeus equivalent is a lesser deity of the sky. It's a novel support of the theory that no, Tyr was not ever necessarily in charge of the Germanic pantheon, in fact it might actually have been Thor that Odin supplanted as the chief God (this is complete speculation, obviously).

>>18283727
>a black housemate came into my room once, saw it on the shelf, and asked 'why they lookin for 'em, they is lost?'
Fuckin kek’d. Typical nigga brain.

>>18283743
The Vanir Gods are LITERALLY incorporated into Germanic mythology. The foundation of Germanic mythology is war between the Aesir (IE gods) and Vanir (pre-IE gods of northern Europe), and their eventual merging.

If you are talking about the Asian subcontinent (the only place where "Aryan" can be correctly used as an ethnic rather than class term), there was significant incorporation of pre-Aryan beliefs, customs, etc. Yes, they coexisted. That doesn't mean that it was an egalitarian coexistence.

>>18283800
It's pajeet bait, anon

>>18283800
>coexisted
Again, a very funny word within South Asian context. You should read how Aryans(even today how high caste hindus treat lower castes) treated slave castes.
But of course we wuzzing dogma is right without a single reference to the previous lands which the Aryans came from or to the lands in which they had religious epiphanies. And they also bring their Vedas with them. Cool story bro.

>>18283868

>>18283868
>without a single reference to the previous lands which the Aryans came from or to the lands in which they had religious epiphanies. And they also bring their Vedas with them.

>>18283748
I'm not as familiar with Hittite religion, but I'd always considered Tarhunt to be the Dyeus descendant/Zeus equivalent. Will need to look further (example: tarhunna). There seems to be a clear etymological link between Tarhunt and Taranis (...but also maybe Thor and Tork?)

Heh, halfway though reading your post, though, I was already thinking of Germanic myth and their whole exception among IE religions with Odin/Thor/Tyr. One possibility (just a personal idea) is that in the case of Thor/Tyr they were once the same, but became bifurcated, with Tyr assuming the figure of sovereign, and Thor as that of protector.

So, uh, is there a book about proto-slavic mythology or something? There's a lot of material about the germanic/hittite/iranian/indian connection but very little about the PIE-slavic link, or the PIE-celtic link for that matter.

>>18283889
>Just ignore the word of Vedas bro and believe in the interpretation of a literal who
We wuzzers and their pathetic tricks man.

>>18283923
>aryans in the vedas are white
>pajeet in india is brown
We wuzzers and their pathetic tricks man.

>>18283868
>You should read how Aryans(even today how high caste hindus treat lower castes) treated slave castes.

Already very aware. "Coexist" doesn't need to mean "holding-hands-harmoniously-singing-songs-and-having-gay-sex-together." It means that there were two populations, which occupied the same landscape.

Think of Anglo-Saxons and native Britons, and who they formed the Old English people: primarily of British stock, speaking the language of the invaders, adopting the religion of the natives. Or the relation between Normans and English a few centuries later and how Norman-French and Old-English merged to create middle English. These people still "coexisted," and a cultural synthesis occurred.

>without a single reference to the previous lands which the Aryans came from or to the lands in which they had religious epiphanies. And they also bring their Vedas with them.

The scriptures speak of the arrival upon the Indus plain. The Vedic scriptures were written in the subcontinent (post invasion 1,500 BC), but are descended from older oral traditions.

>>18283923
>There was no oral tradition before the vedas were written down
I really can't tell if you're an actual retarded poo or just a commie larping as one, good stuff

>>18283923
I know, right. And this supposed """""scientific hypothesis""""" never ever bore out a novel prediction, so at best it's an entertaining just so story. Kinda like how people come up with all sorts of crazy shit in evolutionary biology

>>18283960
bro your spacing makes me wanna commit suicide fr

>>18283966
Please, do it

>>18283951
Most of their Gods are brown. Aryans came made changes for themselves.

>>18283977
All the important gods are white, you know what that means
>aryan invasion intensifies

>>18283960
>>18283961
But of course we wuzzing dogma is right without a single reference to the previous lands which the Aryans came from or to the lands in which they had religious epiphanies. And they also bring their Vedas with them. Cool story bro.

>>18283962
Kek, true.
It's just all stems from their hatred for 2000 years of Christianity in Europe. So to attract retards they have to make up bigger myths by stealing from other cultures to show some examples of past "glory" and pretending like nothing changes after thousands and thousands of years.

>>18283972
okay

thanks

i'll do that

faggot

>>18283986
Yeah Aryans made changes in Hindu religion to suit their egos.

>>18283495
This one is a foundational classic.

>>18283998
>we wuzzing
You keep saying this. I don't think you know what it means. There's a common origin.

- Around 3,000 BC, IE peoples begin to invade the the southern Balkans. (accepted fact, nobody complains)
- Approximately 2,200 BC, IE peoples invade Britain and Ireland. (again, nobody disputes this)
- In 1,500 BC it happened in what is today India/Iran/Pakista...

>"NOOOOO! We were here forever! Nothing has ever changed in India! No foreign influence!!! We wuz Aryans and kangz an shiet!!!

>>18284027
>NOOOOOOOO WE WUZ NOT OOGA BOOGA BARBARIANS AND SHIET WE WUZ BRAHMINZ AND SHEIT

>>18283495
I really wanted to contribute so have this book on the Tocharian, a central Asia Indo-European people,Tocharian and Indo-European Studies 17 you can find it easily

>>18284036
Also, look into the Sogdians, another central Asian Indo-European people, Tocharian has Buddhist texts in it, and I think Sogdians have accounts of their existence in China.

>>18284033
I'm not (and I believe that goes for everyone else here) saying that "WE" (meaning myself/ "muh ancestors"/whatever) were Brahmins, but the I-E invasion of the subcontinent is a fact.

>>18284036
>>18284043
Thanks anon, noted.

>>18284004
It's kind of sad how hard you're coping that you were enslaved by white people twice in your history, and that your entire religion is derived from white peoples.
>>18284011
Based

>>18283998
>But of course we wuzzing dogma is right without a single reference to the previous lands which the Aryans came from or to the lands in which they had religious epiphanies. And they also bring their Vedas with them. Cool story bro.
Yes? Also there are references, just because you are not aware doesn't mean they're not there
You are just spouting Indian nationalist dogma, the difference is that yours is based on wishful thinking while Indo-European "dogma" is based on multidisciplinary evidence
>Kek, true.
You realize that post was taking the piss out of you right? Lmao
>It's just all stems from their hatred for 2000 years of Christianity in Europe. So to attract retards they have to make up bigger myths by stealing from other cultures to show some examples of past "glory" and pretending like nothing changes after thousands and thousands of years.
Or maybe your nonsense stems from the fact that you don't want to accept that your "national" religion is actually a mixture and not self contained. If the Vedas are infallible, how come they are written in Sanskrit, a language absolutely not from India?

>>18283654
>but i know for a fact that the swastika was appropriated by the germans.
noooo 6 lines and 8 right angles don't belong to you you can't frickin arrange lines that way

>>18283532
Nazi? I have no idea what you're referring to

>>18283577
.

>>18283610
how do you not realise you're a complete meme and an absolute joke?

>>18283532
>Nazis used swastikas
>therefore anyone who uses swastikas are nazis
>Hitler was a vegetarian
>therefore all vegetarians are nazis
this is your brain on burger education

>>18284839
the cool S of the ancient world

>>18283662
>How do you explain no references to any places outside of south Asia?
It references the North Pole and the Black Sea, as well as the Himalayas (obviously). You haven't read anything.

Anyone here read Bachofen's Das Mutterrecht? I'm about to start on it in German.

>>18284839
>>18283532
>Patches-worn-by-Kalmyk-Red-Army-formations-in-1919

>>18283577
no. it's just a meme. stop being autistic.

>>18284839
>Navajo
>Aztec
What the fuck? Did the Native Americans get this symbol post-colonization or pre? I get Eurasia due to everything being connected over thousands of years but the Americas? This totally has to be post colonization, there's no way in hell this symbol is that old and globalized.

>>18283495
For genetics:
Go to Eurogenes and study the genetics of Yamnaya and Sintashta peoples. They were most closely related to NW-C Europeans, but NW-C Europeans have about 40-50% of their admixture. Yaghnobs and Pamiri Tajiks (Eastern Iranic) have about 40-50% Sintashta too, but they do not cluster with Europeans due to admixture with other groups.
Steppe admixture exists among Persians (15-20%), Southern Europeans (25-35%), and NW Indians (30-45%) also.
Proto-Indo-Iranians migrated in various historical waves from 1600 BCE into Central Asia and mixed with people of BMAC complex (closest proxy being Makrani or Brahui peoples), which gave rise to Bactrians and Sogdians, which Yaghnobs are direct descendants of. These people later migrated to Iran and formed an elite class, called Medes.

For culture:
I recommend the first chapter of Religions of Iran: From Prehistory to the Present by Richard Foltz. That focuses on Proto-Indo-Iranians, which were Indo-Europeans. Many Eastern Europeans directly descend from them due to high paternal haplogroup R1a.

My opinion:
Zoroaster was an Aryan reformer of the barbaric practices of Proto-Indo-Europeans. Proto-Indo-Europeans would engage in endless warfare and "oversacrifice", which Zoroaster criticized. He was rejected by the steppe peoples.
Zoroaster most likely had high steppe admixture or could have even been purely steppe, meaning he was closely related to NW-C Europeans. That's fine by me. I don't see the issue in following the teachings of a noble, dignified white man.
Also, while ancient Persians received formative influence from Proto-Indo-Iranians, I do not think they had as much steppe admixture as Bactrians or Sogdians. We have two Iron Age samples that show this. Technically, Bactrians and Sogdians were more important to development of Zoroastrianism anyways.

>>18283682
that's not how linguistic comparisons work but i actually agree. the notion of language trees is stupid (as is the notion of a proto language) and the evidence for languages actually being related is usually pretty weak as far as being able to reasonably claim that they have a common ancestor goes.

the languages a language interacts with are more important than its lineage. and the tree shit supposes that language has over time split off and differentiated but this is obviously retarded because it has only become more alike. there would be much greater linguistic diversity in this proto stage than at any time after because it didn't pop into existence from nothing and the conditions have changed making language much more homogenous, deceptively so as is the concept of a language's borders being as it is a political concept and has no linguistic consistency or meaning outside of the linguistic influence of the political concept.

>>18283495
If you haven't already, you should read David Reich's Who We Are and How We Got Here. It covers the archaeogenetic understanding up to the point of 2018 when the book came out. It is top-notch information and it contains sections on the genetics of the Indo-Europeans and their impact on the world. His lab at Harvard is the premier lab when it comes to this topic. Also, it gives you a wider view of the world genetically speaking, too.

>>18285075
Google "the squatting man" for some real x-tier shit

>>18285075
The dates for migration into the Americas, and oldest known depiction of a swastika don't quite overlap, but are within about 2-5,000 years of one another. It's possible that the swastika dates back even further, and that it survived because it's such a simple symbol, or possible because it was a simple symbol it was created independently.

>>18283522
complete snoozer

>>18285009
>>18284839
There was a story from WW2 here in Romania. When an anti-nazi was telling a peasant that the swastika is a symbol of german imperialism, the later interrupted him and said that in his village they have that symbol from the time of the giants.

POTENTIALLY GOOD FUCKING THREAD RUINED BY YOU DUMB FUCKS WHO HAVE READ NOTHING MORE THAN YOUTUBE LECTURES SPOUTING IRRELEVANT SHIT

that said, i'm liking what i've read from M.L. West so far. his Indo-European poetry and myth is thorough and it is a great feeling when you start connecting some of the dots between distant IE cultures. i'm studying the iliad at the moment, and his 'making of the iliad' has a nice commentary in it, which is at least unique, as it points out elements of the language and narrative which have parallels in other IE cultures.

>>18285075
It's older, that's part of where the "Hyperborean" thing comes from. Read the book Arktos by Godwin, the swastika is actually a representation of the movement of the positions of the stars of Ursa major (iirc) through the night sky over a year, but many thousands of years ago.

>>18285774
Yes, although written by a semite, this book is essential reading for all race realists.

>>18283613
sorry you got owned

Thar be a good book published by the Oxford University Prez authored by Mallory et Adams
Issabout PIE and the PIE world

>>18288279
>

>>18283495
Theozoology
>it talks about where Indo Europeans have their magic powers from and ethiccleansing

>>18283495
They were BLACK

>>18288357
What do you get out of posting this?

>>18283891
I can see it. It fits alongside a similar parallel sometimes hypothesized of in regards to the Greeks: Poseidon was the original chief of the Gods and something of a Thunder God (earthquakes, storms, horses), Zeus is just the distant Sky Father. When Zeus gets promoted to head honcho and Poseidon gets demoted, Zeus takes over as both Sky Father and Thunder God, and his role as a monster slayer gets lumped onto Hercules (because Zeus must maintain his distance as Sky Father).

I live /lit/ because it is a board where a thread could deteriorate into one argument of Nazis Vs commies and another argument of whether the Vedas were written by Indo-Europeans, and both are absolute shit-slinging matches. Don't ever change, boys.