/lit/ - Literature

Christ got killed by puny humans
Lmao retard

>>18279071
I predict this will be a good thread if jannies don't remove it. Have a bump

>>18279071

Serious question on the trinity as well and not trying to be rude.

If God is one being in three persons, doesn't that mean he has a multiple personality disorder?

>>18279071
None of those are contradictory or illogical.

G.o.d. stands for gigantic odorous dimwit

>>18279108
Great
Omnipotent
Deity

>>18279111
Gregarious
Oral
Dickhead

>>18279105
This I see no problem

>>18279105
>>18279114
Enlighten us: How is our will free if god already knows what we are going to will?

Let the cope games begin.

what a faggoty thread, kill yourself OP

>>18279098
As someone who is not religious, it seems to me that a "gnostic" reading, with Yahweh being a demigod of sorts lends itself to a better explanation of the trinity.
Old god = material-world jewish supremacist
Jesus = human entity of higher god trying to convert all peoples away from material-world old god
God (holy ghost) = creator of both, does not take human form or communicate beyond symbology

>>18279117
How are you this retarded. Knowing what's going to happen doesn't have any bearing on the event.

>>18279123
Let me phrase it this way: how would god know what we are going to will if we had free will?

>>18279118
seething christcuck detected.

>>18279132
Because God knows everything before anything else can know it. We choose our actions and God knows what we will choose before we do. Point out the contradiction because I don't see it.

>>18279071
>>18279071
>>God is omnibenelovent
>>Hell exists
Not a contradiction. Anyone can escape it if he wills.

>>God is omnipotent
>>Evil exists
Not a contradiction. God is omnipotent, therefore able to: 1. let you exercise your own free will, even if you choose to go astray and commit evil 2. recreate the word in its perfect form with people who freely have chosen to live in it.

>>God is Omniscient
>>Free will exists
Not a contradiction. You might know your child very well and predict what it does in advance, but it doesn't render you responsible for all it does. You're not remote-controlling it. This is the case with God, only with infinitely more potent predictive power.

>>18279071
Hell is good, punishment of the wicked (like OP) is a good thing.

>>18279142
>Because God knows everything before anything else can know it. We choose our actions and God knows what we will choose before we do
God knows what we will will with our free will before it has even willed, even though it could supposed be willed any which way, completely unfettered by pre-existing causes. This does not strike you as contradictory?

>>18279151
what are the wicked guilty of?

>>18279156
No, because if we willed differently God would have known that instead. Free will is just the freedom to choose and someone knowing what you will choose before you do doesn't imply that the freedom isn't real, because it's not a constraint on your choices.

>>18279168
>someone knowing what you will choose before you
That's the point, HOW could he have known?

>>18279157
Depends on the wicked, I'm not the one who is going to judge them

>>18279178
Omniscience, perfect knowledge of everything everywhere and at all times, something literally only God can posses

>>18279179
How can you tell us that Hell is a valid punishment if you don't even know what the wicked are guilty of?

>>18279181
yes, we describe god as all-knowing. So how could he know what a person wills with his free will?

>>18279188
Because what a person wills is part of the all that God knows

>>18279178
Because he is an outside observer of the 4-dimensional spacetime. But it doesn't make him an actor in every particular event. These are just two distinct things, even if taking place in a perspective you can't fully comprehend being trapped in time.

>>18279152
>You might know your child very well and predict what it does in advance, but it doesn't render you responsible for all it does.
bro, the idea of parenting entails that you are responsible for your child even when you cannot predict what it does in advance. Terrible example.

>>18279117
Omniscience doesnt mean knowing the unknowable.

>>18279071
>God knows you have a choice
>this somehow inhibits your ability to make a choice

>>18279190
again, you are describing god as all knowing. I want to know HOW he could know the outcome of free will beforehand. But I'm sure you already know the two possible conclusions: he either knows because of this and that, and therefore the will is actually determined by this and that, therefore it is not free will, or he could not have known at all, and therefore he is not omniscient. End of discussion.

>>18279156
Different anon.
I think I get what you mean, I also think pretty deterministically, still I'll try to understand the other guys pov:
It's to me like knowing someone so well that despite them having the option to do anything, you can still predict with utmost certainty what they'll do anyway.
And even after thinking about that enough, ie how could you be certain that the person will make a specific decision? Only if you knew every factor that determines their thought process.
I still come back around to hard determinism...
It's almost like any other event that seems random to us, we don't know all the factors, but to someone who knows them all it would probably not seem random at all. Similarly for free will, since all the factors in the universe of things affecting the individuals actions are already set and the omniscient being knows them - there isn't really a choice or a will.
Idk, that was pretty unsuccessful. I'm still not able to convince myself either hahaha

>>18279197
Fair enough. But strictly speaking as a parent you're not directly responsible for what your kid does, but for not controlling it well enough. There're cases where your kid does something wrong but you might be found innocent because you had no way of predicting and counteracting it. At least that's how it works in my country, which is not the US.

>>18279182
Because it's the choice of the wicked. It's what they desire. Let's see it with a simple syllogism.
>1. You can only go to hell if you have committed a mortal sin.
>2. You can only commit a mortal sin willfully (if you do it unconsciously or forced it doesn't count as a mortal sin)
>3. Therefore, you can only go to hell if you will it
Consequently, hell is a valid punishment since it's in the sinner's desire to be in hell

>>18279198
are we not then omniscient too, for we can only know things which are knowable to us as God can only know things which are knowable to him?

>>18279209
Break it down like this. I know that I have the freedom of choice. I also know that whatever I choose, God will know what I choose before I do. Not only that, but he also knows all the deliberations I go through in my own free mind in order to arrive at my choice. It can be said that God knows me even better than I know myself. I am a free individual and what God knows is me, and every other free person in the world is known to God. The free will is not determined by anything except itself so what God knows is the free will itself. There is no contradiction here because the will is free and not determined by anything except itself and God still has a priori knowledge of the will due to his omniscience.

>>18279071
For good to exist you need evil.

>>18279199
Because what they're demanding is not non-contradiction, which is clearly the case. Being an observer isn't the same as being an actor. Period.

What they're truly demanding is a full understanding of God's perspective on the universe, which for one thing is not possible (and that makes it into a convenient excuse), and secondly is blasphemous.

>>18279226
So we have a premise, the sinner desires hell.

If his desire is genuine, and god decides to 'punish' him by fulfilling that desire for hell, then we are kidding ourselves when we call it a punishment.

But if his desire is not genuine for whatever reason, let's say ignorance for what he really ought to desire, then god is punishing him for something totally out of his control. We're kidding ourselves if we go on to call the Judge 'omnibenelovent'.

>>18279199
>God knows you have a choice
No, an omniscient God already knows every choice you will take, so from the perspective of a human being in the present, free will doesnt exist since all of your actions are set in stone beforehand in God's knowledge.

>>18279230
No.
God knows all that is knowable.
Humans know only what has been factually discovered, there are still much that is unknown yet still potentially knowable.

>>18279234
>Not only that, but he also knows all the deliberations I go through in my own free mind in order to arrive at my choice
You consult your deliberations, and then you arrive at what you perceive is the best possible course of action, correct?

>>18279226

What is more, a sinner have a possibility not to go to hell due to God's benevolence. So he actually chooses twice: firstly to sin and secondly to opt out of his pardon.

>>18279212
Like the other person, your mistake is thinking God needs to know something outside the will in order to know the will. The will is the cause of itself so there is no necessary need to know anything other than the will itself. God knows my will just as I know my will, but he knows it completely from the beginning of my life to the end. It's not as if God deduces my will out of something that it is dependent on and therefore not free.
>>18279260
That's how the will works

>>18279254
God is letting them choose, they know perfectly what they're choosing. And if they don't know, that's their problem, as there are other people who actually did know (the saints)

>>18279071
>grew up living in two christian countries (one catholic, one protestant)
>religious parents
>read the Bible cover to cover
>Christianity still doesn't make sense

>>18279266
Given that framework, is there anyone out there who would actually choose to do anything other than their perceived best course of action.

>>18279274
You added perceived best, which I should have corrected you on. It doesn't have to perceived best, it could be a deliberately chosen wrong action too. Whatever the will chooses and whatever logical or illogical paths it goes through, technically speaking every individual point on the path of deliberation is also a free choice that God is aware of, just one that doesn't materialize in an action outside the mind.

>>18279286
There is no such thing as a deliberately chosen wrong action. The idea that someone deliberates so that he can understand, or at least subjectively perceive, his best course of action, and then go on to do something else - It is absurd.

>>18279303
That's obviously wrong. Anyone can choose to do something when he believes the right thing is to do something else instead. What's absurd about it?

>>18279269
I'm not a christian, but the lessons it gives may be much more important than metaphysics.
And that's even worse, lmao, it's a cuck religion.

>>18279267
>God purposefully places them in situations where they could not know of their wrongdoing, or even have the recourse to know about their lack of knowledge. He will later proceed to throw them onto the hellfire, while millions on the Earth maintain that he is totally omnibenelovent.

>>18279306
>Anyone can choose to do something when he believes the right thing is to do something else instead
That simply never happens.

>>18279313
Contradicted by experience. Like I know I shouldn't be posting on /lit/ right now but I'm choosing to do so anyway.

>>18279313
So that's why no one struggles with addictions

>>18279315
No. You are compelled to post on /lit/ in view of one reason or another. If you did not see posting on /lit/ as something you should be doing, then you wouldn't do it.

>>18279266
>will
How could you explain/provide me a resource that would explain to me the idea of the will?
As far as I'm convinced atm, there's no such thing as will, we're driven by various "cogs" the same as any animal except our shit is just that much more complex that it's hard to grasp beyond explaining it away as free will/some higher level of consciousness.

>>18279325
Nah, I'm posting because I want to, even though I know it is not the best course of action. There is not real contradiction here and you're just making your argument weaker by trying to invent one. What does this have to do with free will and God?

>>18279328
I actually believe animals have some primitive forms of the will, some more advanced than others. If you like, you can think of the will as the principle "cog" that drives things.

>>18279319
That statement benefits me more than it benefits you. In a world with free will, addictions wouldn't existence, because everyone would be flittering between use and abstinence arbitrarily.

>>18279330
>because I want to, even though I know it is not the best course of action
That's the contradiction.

>>18279071
>>God is omnibenelovent
>>Hell exists
>Do
>>God is omnipotent
>>Evil exists
>Christcucks
>>God is Omniscient
>>Free will exists
>Really?

>>18279340
The idea that free will means arbitrariness never made much sense to me. The central feature of the will is self-determination, not randomness. If it was chaotic then it wouldn't be really free and real freedom is ultimately one that goes beyond chaos toward a self-established order.

>>18279350
The contradiction is internal to the will so it doesn't disprove it in any way

>>18279353
>self-determination
That is arbitrary.

>>18279361
Alright, it's arbitrary in that sense which is not the same thing as randomness. Isn't that how addicts actually exhibit behavior? They arbitrarily choose to quit then start using again and never actually quit.

>>18279339
>I actually believe animals have some primitive forms of the will, some more advanced than...
Yeah I don't disagree.

Still I think that this will as described so far, from the most primitive to least, could likely be explained (had we the knowledge)
as an instinct that is produced by some biological process and that is therefore entirely determined by whatever factors are behind it (I'm no chem/physics student).
I can absolutely agree with you on that idea of the will, however I think the will is predetermined and not in any way outside/special in terms of reality to escape what I observe is a deterministic universe.

>>18279071
>God is Omniscient
>Free will exists
God (according to Christians) knows the outcome of every action you'll take, what action you choose to make is up to you.
Simple.

>>18279372
I don't really have a problem with a deterministic universe as long as it takes into account that the will is part of the universe, and often the decisive factor in how things play out. The paradox comes about when we try to set the will outside the world and also have it determine the world somehow but if the will is just seen as another phenomenon internal to the world the problem of how we can know the will is no different from the problem of how we can know anything at all.

>>18279157
>>18279179
>>18279182
Hell is not a punishment. Hell is getting what you want, when you actively will to be closed off from God, the source of Love, Life and Existence. All the sick fucks in there brought it upon themselves, and God has no bad or judgmental feelings regarding them.

>>18279369
They choose to quit when they are presented with facts, or guilt-tripped or whatever. They are motivated during that time by their memory of those facts or by their guilt or whatever. This will wavers, on the other hand, once the urge, the 'itch', comes back, and that previous factor has weakened in the presence of that itch, until the addict thinks that satisfying that itch is far more important than 'whatever the fuck nonsense they were talking about back then' (that's how the addict might put it during his breakdown, even though it made perfect sense to him back then). Throughout this series of events, the addict has done what he thought was the best course of action, the only variable being the knowledge at hand.

Or, his process is "yeah, i fully know drugs are a life ruining substance, but I'm going to do it anyways LAMO free will".

Which one is the more rational explanation of real life.

>>18279071
God exists, end of story

>>18279389
I think it's wrong to say hell is not a punishment. It is. But you always have an easy way out. It's up to you if you will take it or persist in attempts to know better than your creator. Ultimately, hell is the punishment for pride that rendered you unable to accept the pardon you could be granted.

>>18279375
refer to >>18279209

>>18279071
>>God is Omniscient
>>Free will exists
False dichotomy, there's no conflict between free will and omniscience, thinking there is throws your intelligence into the trash, which makes us doubt about the veracity of your other critiques.
Knowing something is or will be and causing that state of affairs aren't the same thing, they have nothing to do with each other.

>>18279071

None of those contradict each other.

>>18279423
This is so obvious that it only reinforces what the bible says about suppressing the truth by wickedness.

>18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

>>18279423
How can god know what someone with free will will do?

>>18279423
Not seeing the contradiction throws your intelligence into the trash, which makes us doubt about the veracity of your other critiques.

>>18279461
>Imagine I have a computer which can predict the future with 100% accuracy.
>Now imagine my computer decides if you turn left you will die in a car accident despite its obvious immediate benefits, while the right turn means you're eventually promoted to CEO.
What a ridiculous computer; able to predict the many events which will lead to being promoted a CEO, yet unable to predict something as simple as a turn in an intersection. Try again.

>>18279421 #
Imagine I have a computer which can predict the future with 100% accuracy.
Now imagine yourself at a junction, you hear on the radio traffic is held up on the left turn, and while the right turn is much longer normally it may be the better choice in this case.
Now imagine my computer decides if you turn right you will die in a car accident within a few minutes of your choice despite its obvious immediate benefits, while the left turn means you're eventually promoted to CEO despite your tardiness in this instance.
My computer knows the future regardless of what you do, but the decision is ultimately yours. You should conclude both free will and omniscience are not mutually exclusive.

>>18279458
Because for him all your choices coexist in one, 4-dimensional space. For you time is unfolding. For him it's static and your individual choices are dispersed through it just like, say, clothes in your room.

>>18279489
>Oh no, your free will is actually static in some cosmological 4-dimensional space cope.
Basically, its not free will.

>>18279470
I baleeted it, sorry
>>18279487
Anyway, I can put into a calculator any combination of numbers and basic operations and get the true answer. The calculator doesn't know which numbers I'm gonna put into it, but that doesn't mean its output isn't accurate.
Is this a ridiculous premise? A calculator that doesn't know what I'll ask it?

You can't believe in the God of the bible and free will.The logical conclusion of Christianity is Calvinism I'm afraid.

You were either pre-elected to follow God's plan or you weren't simple as.

>>18279502
>able to predict a car accident and a promotion
>not able to predict a single car turn

And as for your other example:
>Calculator cannot output an answer until numbers are inputted
>God can know the output of free will before it has been inputted, so to speak

>>18279501
It is. God's will is to create this 4-dimensional space, yours is to control some aspects of it. This is what "being made in the image of God" means.

"Static" doesn't mean "fixed by an independent force" but "being evident as a whole in a given perspective".

>>18279535
>yours is to control some aspects of it
which ones?

>>18279555
These are known as your choices.

>>18279566
a choice between the event that has already happened and the event that will never happened is not what I would call 'control'.

>>18279071
>Can god make an object he cannot lift?
Yes, but then he lifts it anyway.

>>18279515
You may ask any calculator on Earth what 2+2 is a million times over, the answer will always be the same.
For the sake of the argument, assume the calculator knows the answer is 4 prior to your input.

>>18279581
No, it hasn't already happen. "Already" implies the human perspective in which events unfolds in time and which is the only one we can comprehend.

And from God's perspective there's no "already". If you insist on applying time-dependent terms to his point of view (even though it's at best metaphorical), I guess you could say that for him there's only "now". In this case, you just made all your choices at once as the spacetime was created.

>>18279626
*unfold

>>18279310
If they don´t know about their wrongdoing it is not mortal sin, to be mortal sin it has to be done WILLINGFULLY this is WITH KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THEY´RE DOING
>chooses hell knowing that he will get hell
>goes to hell
>buaaaaabuaaaaaaa why god did this to me aahhhhhhh

>>18279633
So no one actually goes to hell.

>>18279619
I'm not going to assume the calculator knows beforehand. How could it know when I haven't inputted the equation?

>>18279626
I insist upon using applying time-dependent terms, and I insist that a choice between an event which has already happened and an event which never will is not a choice at all.

>>18279659
People know perfectly that they're sinning, for instance, you know without beyond the slightest shadow of doubt that you're being a big whiny faggot who is getting closer to hell every day with that "if I don't listen you're wrong lalalalala" attitude of yours

>>18279673
A calculator doesn't know anything at any point. It's just a subset of matter that changes its state depending on its interactions with the rest of it. There's not knowing there. Knowing is a quale.

>>18279684
You can insist on your perspective, but then also accept that you cannot claim that a future event has already happened.

>create paradise for two humans
>put a talking snake in it, knowing that in advance this will cause a tremendous fuck up
>blame humans for said fuck up

By the way, why was God so pissed at us being able to distinguish right from wrong? Could it be because it allows us to expose him as a incompetent fraud?

>>18279695

By "your" I mean "temporal".

>>18279687
I do not even know that hell exists, how could I possibly know that I am going to that place?

>>18279707
>>18279695
>also accept that you cannot claim that a future event has already happened
So then we return to the original question: how does god know what an individual with free will will do?

>>18279687
>I know what you think better than you do and I’ll punish you for it

You’re probably a Christian because you just want to be a secret polytheist. Luckily, Allah isn’t fooled by you

>>18279688
>It's just a subset of matter that changes its state depending on its interactions with the rest of it.
I'm not going to say it. Everyone is already thinking it

>>18279721
Because this knowledge requires a perspective that you don't have, a perspective that isn't bound to any particular point in time and he has this perspective by his very nature.

>>18279772
Perspective of an event which has already happened. Of course.

>>18279747
I'm not saying it's revolutionary. I added it to emphasize my point about knowing being a quale which, on the other hand, is far from being a consensus. At least if you consider the common belief in the possibility of strong AI.

>>18279782
>Of course.
Unironically, yes.

>>18279120
>I don't believe in any of this stuff but a half-understood meme heresy seems like it must be right.

>>18279120
then why did the holy ghost create the jew god? why not just let jesus-like dude run the show

>>18279782
The distinction between an observer and an actor is clear, even if taken beyond temporal terms. That's my point. There's no contradiction here. Of course the fact that some concept doesn't contradict itself doesn't mean it describes the reality. You struggle to believe that such observer exists, but this isn't the point. The point is the mere idea isn't absurd.

>>18279071
god is just the personification of quantum mechanics
bye

Hell doesn't exist miso soup

Why so much butthurt discussing something that doesn't exist ?
Why so much butthurt discussing something nobody can even prove it exist ?

>>18279098
They are not personalities, they are three Persons sharing one substance.

>>18279071
>problem of evil?
get filtered.

Do /lit/ never gets tired of arguing about the same theological points over and over again in ill-intended threats made with sole objective of collecting (you)s?

>>18279709
You know it does exist precisely because you know you're being an asshole attentionwhore. If it didn't exist we would need to invent it just because of pricks like you. But you know, I know, everyone knows that it's not the case, that the universe is a place where you get what you sow.

>proof of reincarnation
>thousands of consistent testimony of near death and out of body experiences, multiple ancient traditions teaching it, it makes sense

>proof of Pauline christianity
>I will torture you and your whole family to death and violently destroy your culture and you will be tortured in the afterlife forever if you aren't christian
>or if you are the slightly wrong kind of christian
>this is how I show the infinite love and compassion of god

why cant god be real bros, i just dont want my consciousness to disappear

>>18279071
Free will undeniably exists, and this can be proven.

Whether or not human possess it is another question.

pantheistic masterrace
monotheists and atheist get filtered

>>18280202
Consciousness doesnt disappear with death, just your current individual ego.

>>18279071
Freewill is an illusion but makes no difference from our perspective if it exists or not. You are still held accountable for actions. God being all knowing higher being doesn't contradict freewill

>>18279071
>omnibenevolent
pseud, stopped reading there.

>>18280231
why cant god be real bros, i just dont want my current individual ego to disappear
better?

>>18279071
At some point we just stop answering people of your kind.
Your ignorance is your self-inflicted punishment.

>>18280245
Much better