/lit/ - Literature

>>18235372
Two more weeks

>>18235372
Trump lost

The death of democracy will be met with resounding applause.
Good riddance.

>>18235372
Liberalism will never fail.

>>18235478
>>18235485
>>18235488
>>18235491
quick rundown on the book?

The liberal era ended in 1914.

>>18235485
Yep. And Obama named the book in OP's pic one of his favorites of the year

>>18235372
>In a review for The New York Review of Books, Robert Kuttner described the book as "convenient for conservatives looking to blame all ills on liberals", to oppose globalization and market fundamentalism, perceiving liberalism as "a dangerous betrayal of deeper sources of culture and civilization such as the family, the tribe, the nation, and the church".
This review and the cover art make it painfully obvious its not worth my time.

>>18235531
That review proves that it's worth your time.

>>18235531
>books critiques liberalism
>reviewer says "No, liberalism good"
>this is enough to stop you from reading it

Yikes.

>>18235531
That review just put it on the top of my list
(((Kuttner)))

>>18235372
Yes liberalism is failing, communism is the only worthy replacement. American 'conservatism' is still just liberalism, fascism is liberalism in psychosis, Communism is the way forward in the 21st century.

>>18235566
>forward
Musthaveprogress.exe

>>18235546
>>18235547
>>18235560
fair point, but may I move the goalpost and say that its probably not convincing to liberals like all of these obv liberal reviewers?

>>18235576
I'm not even talking necessarily about progress, we are facing enormous problems that liberalism is unable to solve. We need a strong peoples state that can address these problems.

>>18235485
>He doesn't know what Deneen means by "Liberalism"

>>18235578
Well how often do people actually change their ideology?

>>18235531
>>18235546
Sigh.... the usage of "Liberalism" in the title of the book does not mean liberalism in the colloquial sense, but rather liberalism in its actual meaning. "Conservative" and "Liberal" are no opposites, as conservatism is a disposition whereas liberalism is an ideology. The opposite of conservative is progressive. Most western "conservatives" are also liberals.

When talks about the failure of liberalism, he is talking about the mainstream establishment ideology of both left and right.

>>18236032
I do surprisingly often.
IE I'm now pro abortion because I larped as being ambivalent but I surprised myself by learning something.
>>18236056
Won't stop republicans from referencing it though lmao

>>18236129
>Won't stop republicans from referencing it though lmao
For the most part, you're correct, even though Deneen is equally as harsh on Republicans as he is on Democrats.

>>18235485
You're right but he didn't lose on Nov 3rd. He lost when he pussied out on Jan 6th.

>>18235606
>a strong peoples state
No such thing, an impossibility, There will always be an elite class of some sort. Every REAL socialist movement had a bureaucratic elite made up of educated middle-class types.
>B-buh that's because real Communism has never been tried!

There have been plenty of attempts, but it's not going to happen. A body that holds power (say, the socialist bureaucracy in an authoritarian state) isn't going to relinquish it- the main objective of any institution of power is to maintain that power. And THE PEOPLE aren't going to take it either, because the masses are way too apathetic. (Unless of course you have a new socialist vanguard that mobilizes popular support become the NEW bureaucratic elite, leaving everything the same)

Politics isn't about ideas (that's gay), politics is about power.

>>18236505
>Every REAL socialist movement had a bureaucratic elite

*every REAL socialist movement or government

>>18235485
Trump winning the presidency in the first place supports the book's thesis that liberalism isn't working. The delusional tantrum at the end of his presidency also supports it.

>>18236056
>When talks about the failure of liberalism, he is talking about the mainstream establishment ideology of both left and right.
I'm a monarchist so this is exactly what I want.

>>18236056
>>18236533
Nice to see people on this board who actually know what they're talking about

>>18235372
Liberalism didn't fail. This book is pure cope.

>>18236697
Filtered by the title.

>>18236697
Deneen's argument is that liberalism, in it's success and achieving of its own goals, ultimately failed due to those goals and successes. In following Kant's dictum to have the courage to use our own reason we arrived at a liberal society which seems to betray liberal principles: we cannot make our own laws; we do not participate in self-government; our freedom is de-facto increasingly curtailed by a strong, vast, central bureaucratic apparatus; equality before the law is clearly (and increasingly) not the case; we are not free and are increasingly under what is very clearly totalitarian control in our thoughts and abilities to express them. Hereditary-noble aristocrats have been replaced by the industrial, financial, and propagandizing elite as a ruling class. Cultural decline is not co-incidental but a necessary effect of loosening the bondage that were the targets of liberalism.

And what went wrong in liberalism? Nothing. It is the global hegemonic order. That is what Deneen is referring to.

>>18236947
So what comes next? And how long will it take?

>>18236958
Deneen’s failure is assuming that liberalism failing (or really succeeding too well) is going to usher in some neo-aristotelian distributist state, which he conveniently believes in.
It’s a nice critique of liberal capitalism as it is, but like the valid Marxist critiques of 19th century liberalism they will become outdated as it adapts and survives. Liberalism will only go the way of feudalism when capital accumulation stops being the best pursuit towards power, and only then. Probably in a few centuries or millennia.

>>18236993
>Probably in a few centuries or millennia.
grim

What about China? They seem to be an illiberal power which is only growing

>>18235372
Told you so.

>>18235372
It won't, because it's not that good. Deneen tries to cover the same massive amount of timespan for each and every discrete topic in individual chapters, and the result is a very weak, shallow, and unsatisfying treatment. A book of this kind needs focus more than anything else, and Deneen went in the opposite direction. Return of the Strong Gods is much better.

>>18237004
Not so grim for me since I’m a liberal

China I’m not convinced will completely succeed, because like all modern authoritarian societies they undermine their institutions with heavy-handed measures. Demographically they’re starting to cap out. I think China will become rich and successful but not a unipolar global hegemon.

>>18237044
God the level of mental acrobatic coping that liberals have to do. The liberal west is collapsing, Israel is encircled by Iran, and China is rising. "demographically capping out", yeah, at a billion, they outnumber entirety of Europe and the anglosphere alone.
>a unipolar global hegemon.
That's not the goalpost for successfully challenging liberal hegemony

>>18236056
Is it a critique on liberalism or modern manifestations of progressive liberalisms? What I'm asking is does it make a distinction between Locke, Paine, Mills natural rights liberalism and what we have now?

>>18236584
who cares about what you want and what ideology you claim to follow

>>18237057
Yes, he’s not a fan of liberalism in general. He’s a Thomist

>>18236993
Cringe. You don't understand capitalism at all. Feudalism is impossible in a technological society.

>>18235372
He talking about classical liberalism or leftist shit?

>>18237044
>Not so grim for me since I’m a liberal
I'll admit modern "liberalism" has its upsides, but I think it is turning into an extremely oppressive system. Still, it's not a horrible system, and I like to think it can be salvaged.

> not a unipolar global hegemon.
Does it need to be? To "beat liberalism", it needs to make the world multipolar. It doesn't need to be the hegemon

>>18237079
That's what he means, that it'll become a dead curiosity of history that can never return.

>>18237057
It's aware of the distinction between classical liberalism and "what we have now," but it's a critique liberalism wholesale. The liberalism of 200, 300 years ago inevitably leads to progressive liberalism.

>>18237052
>The liberal west is collapsing, Israel is encircled by Iran, and China is rising.
Israel isn't even liberal. They're liberals only among themselves, no so, not a liberal society. I can't think of a single liberal society outside of the West* with MAYBE the exception of Greece. And that's mostly a cold war relic. This is one of the big arguments against liberalism: it was supposed to be the great new universal creed, THE END OF HISTORY! ...and yet the reality is that it was just a product of the West, limited to the West.

*protestant and catholic Europe plus USA, Canada, Aus, NZ.

>>18237082
>He talking about classical liberalism or leftist shit?

Jesus, read the thread. For like the 5th time: Both.

(though perhaps not the "leftist shit" you have in mind, which is often illiberal, despite being referred to as liberal)

>>18237088
You’re right that in the short term in doesn’t, but I think it needs to show itself to be a better system so that an overwhelming number of societies adopt it.
For that to happen, it needs to prove to work better than liberal capitalism. if you’ve ever read ‘Why Nations Fail?’, that basically has my position on China. Authoritarianism is very good for industrializing but and ‘catching up’, but whether it be 16th century Spain, the USSR, or China, it doesn’t succeed as well in the long run. For all their faults I think people genuinely prefer living in a Democratic society.

>>18237142
People don't prefer "living in a democratic society," people prefer living in a stable, safe, prosperous society. Very few people give a shit about the principle of an idea or system, they care about the reality it produces. If liberal democracy can't deliver, it won't find support.

>>18237178
...liberal democracy has been regarded as appealing not because of the principles behind it, but because of the material realities associated with it. If it can no longer deliver on that front, it will find little support, either in its home territory, or abroad.

>>18237178
> People don't prefer "living in a democratic society," people prefer living in a stable, safe, prosperous society
I don’t think there’s a conflict here. When people can’t say what they want and billionaires can just disappear, that stymies social and economic growth. The problems in the US aren’t because of democracy per se, but because are institutions are so weak that they can be gamed by a small minority. Strong liberal democracies do deliver, compared to autocracies.

>>18237196
>the problems in the US aren’t because of democracy per se
Not entirely, of course not, but:

- To win elections, you need money
- Influential private entities provide you with money to win
- To retain your position, you need to further policies that serve the interests of those entities, and not your constituents- what are they gonna do, vote for the other who's also in the pocket of banks/corporations or the bureaucracy? Why do politicians of both parties in the US seem to not give a shit about what their voters actually want? Because the voters don't matter to them. Donors and entrenched institutions matter.

>but because are institutions are so weak that they can be gamed by a small minority.

As Deneen points out in his book, institutions are in fact incredibly strong. It's just that there's a mistake in thinking that "public institutions" work for the public good. No, the institution, any institution works for ITS OWN good.

Today is the best of all times incels. The new order is only growing stronger.

Racism will die as we blanda up. Global warming will be overcome by technology. We will rise. I hope to die at 189 years of age on Mars, in the capital of Muskopolis.

>>18236947
>>18236993
>>18236056
thank you for explaining, and also this thesis seems to be correct. i've always been thinking this for the past few years but most people don't seem to agree. it's quite obvious that all the upheaval today is not the result of some sort of leftist infiltration as conservatives say or return of fascism as leftists say, this is all just liberal globalization working as it always wanted to. none of this is happening in spite of the system, it IS the system, and everything we've seen since -- trump, the rise of social progressivism, social media obsession, centralization of mass culture, institutional failures, extreme anxiety and social atomization -- are just consequences of the post-1991 liberal world order. we are the last men fukuyama and nietzsche warned of

>Strong liberal democracies do deliver, compared to autocracies.

So far, but is that a permanent condition, but will it last? Do liberal democracies (particularly if they fall for the globalism/multiculturalism meme) have an innate tendency to degenerate?

(although you should specify "authoritarian states" rather than "autocracy." China, for example is authoritarian- totalitarian, in fact, but bureaucratic, not autocratic)

edit:
>>18237255
is meant for:
>>18237196

>>18237255
>particularly if they fall for the globalism/multiculturalism meme
This is a very unpopular opinion around these parts but multiculturalism is liberalism’s most competitive advantage against China. America is already miles ahead of Europe/Japan in that being American is not tied to a particular ethnicity or even language. We could open our borders and assimilate another 350 million Americans if we had the will to do so, and that makes competing with China much easier. Nationalism cannot survive the postindustrial era, look at Japan. They will literally disappear without immigration.

>>18237255
>Do liberal democracies (particularly if they fall for the globalism/multiculturalism meme) have an innate tendency to degenerate

Yes and no. Liberalism does nothing but create decadence. The entire goal of liberal systems is simply to subjugate humanity into mediocrity, dissolving our unique customs and lifestyles into the bondage of consumption, wage labor and technocratic control. The only reason Liberalism has become so dominant is because it's easy. It's just so much easier to keep your country stagnant and boring under a liberal system than risk conflict through other systems. But this also means your idea of "multiculturalism" is wrong. Liberal societies are not genuinely multicultural, they're a cesspool of different ethnic groups and identities submitting to the same boring liberal hegemony which is in fact the destruction of culture.

>>18237290
>multiculturalism is liberalism’s most competitive advantage against China. America is already miles ahead of Europe/Japan in that being American is not tied to a particular ethnicity or even language. We could open our borders and assimilate another 350 million Americans

>assimilate

LOL, no.

A society to which anyone can belong, is a society to which nobody belongs, and such a society inevitably falls apart.

>>18237315
Was liberalism this easy under the Stuarts?

>>18237290
Part of the reason america is so successful is because it only has had 200-350 million people when it has been a superpower. Opening the borders to a third of a billion people, no matter their origin (they would all be brown lets face it) would turn the usa into a mediocre, overcrowded shithole.

>>18237290
>Nationalism cannot survive the postindustrial era, look at Japan. They will literally disappear without immigration
They will disappear with immigration. Just as we are now.

>>18237315
>But this also means your idea of "multiculturalism" is wrong. Liberal societies are not genuinely multicultural, they're a cesspool of different ethnic groups and identities submitting to the same boring liberal hegemony which is in fact the destruction of culture.

Well, the INTENTION of any liberal political order is not multiculturalism, that's correct (beyond the superficial sense of having Chinese restaurants or whatever), despite all the approbation heaped upon multiculturalism. The desire is to have everyone submit to the ideology and lifestyle (both for the sake of the market, and of social stability... they recognize that diversity is inherently unstable). But the reality is that liberalism does seem to be having trouble actually eradicating these cultural distinctions, and so multiculturalism persists.

>>18237290
this is your brain on neoliberalism

>>18237353
Who would have guessed Matt Yglesias was a /lit/ard?

>>18237290
You make several assumptions here which I disagree with.

First, You imply that we will have a reservoir, for lack of a better term, of human capital which can move to the Western world, and be substituted for decreasing native populations to keep things going. However, these people have ideologies and belief systems of their own, which may not agree with liberalism. Sure, assimilation can occur, but Europe's Muslim situation highlights that this is not always the case, and with enough people moving in, assimilation no longer happens and native society is changed. In the eyes of illiberal immigrants, The liberals will sell us the rope with which we will hang them""

In addition, you really discount the value of ethno/linguistic/religious unity. You point to America as a nation where the lack of these things is a good thing, but the explosion of ethnic tensions which occur every twenty-odd years highlights the dangers of a lack of a unifying factor. And no, a strong economy is not a strong enough factor. There are ways around this, of course, like a reverence for the state above all else, but that is hardly a liberal ideal.

Finally, you make the mistake of placing material conditions and wealth above all else. Religion, language, culture, and the like all have intrinsic value. Without a proper form of assimilation, these things will be diluted and driven to extinction. You raise the example of Japan as a nation where an aversion to immigration is harmful. But if Japan opens the floodgates of immigration, to the point where Japanese culture, the language, religion all become the minority in Japan, that is a far more complete destruction than fading away due to population loss.

All in all, I think a multicultural society can work in a society which assimilates everyone around some greater concept. In my eyes, this means civic nationalism or a religious state.

>>18237318
Are you an American? If so, you are a product of the successful assimilation. If you’re not I could forgive you for thinking otherwise.
>>18237339
Yes, just as America was ruined by the Irish and Italians. Get over yourself. The next generation of nativists will probably be made up Mexican, Filipino and Nigerian-Americans. They will be furious at the Congolese and Indonesian immigrants arriving here. They will speak English with American accents and vote conservatively, and eat chicken sandwiches while watching Major League Soccer. Life will go on as it always has.

>>18237372
Has it ever occurred to you that Japan is not the United States?

>>18237347
I don't think multiculturalism is persisting at all. Liberalism commodifies superficial aspects of culture (cuisine, clothing, music) but disintegrates all other aspects, either that or they outright refuse to allow them. Liberalism's mask of representation, diversity and equality has always been a ploy just to include as many people into the liberal capitalist hegemony as possible. They know that they cannot possibly function without immigration or imperialism so their only chance at survival is trying to seem more genuinely liberal and focused on liberty but to a broad intersection of identities which it formerly despised. Call it whatever you want (progressivism, intersectionality) but this development of liberalism has been the dominant ideology for the past few years just to pathetically homogenize people by convincing them of "liberation" in the global market. Most young people have been indoctrinated into this progressivism through social media.

You simply cannot disagree with the new progressive liberal dogmas without being ostracized or accused of heresy. You can be a Muslim and wear hijab or fast for Ramadan (superficial qualities) but you cannot publicly criticize the LGBT or advocate the subordination of women. This isn't multicultural at all, it's a commodification of culture

>>18237290
I should add:
>look at Japan. They will literally disappear without immigration.

Japan has 125 million people living in an area the size of California. They can afford a drop in population. And it's not as if once you have a low fertility rate, it has to STAY THAT WAY FOREVER. In 100 years social conditions could change and Japan could have a 2+ fertility rate once again. This is, in fact, the most likely scenario.

>>18237255
>Strong liberal democracies do deliver
All liberal democracies are borrowing against the future to "deliver"

>>18237290
There is no such thing as "being American" beyond being born in the US economic zone, lol.

>We could open our borders and assimilate another 350 million Americans if we had the will to do so, and that makes competing with China much easier.
Ah yes, I too want the average IQ of the economic zone I inhabit to drop another 5 points. Downright chuffed that our economic zone Owned the Chinese. Patriotism!

>>18237382
Do you know what the correlates of fertility rates are? Check them out, then ask yourself whether these factors are increasing or decreasing.

>>18237390
>There is no such thing as "being American" beyond being born in the US economic zone, lol.
that is how they think. religion, community, nation etc are all obstacles towards the eternal market.

>>18237401
>This is how they think
I'm from the US. I'm not praising the fact that the US is an economic zone - it is a statement of fact. No one could reasonably call the US a nation or even a country. Sometimes it's closer to a Yankee caliphate depending on who is in power. There is no "common heritage or descent" here, nor any religious idea - nor was there ever. There is no "American people". Hilariously the only genuine "nation" in America is the blacks.

Just look at the Puritans, they used to persecute Catholics but were so hungry for cheap labor that they became a minority in New England in under 100 years. Lol. If you are an American Patriot you are LARPing or deluded in the worst possible way.

>>18237372
>Are you an American? If so, you are a product of the successful assimilation. If you’re not I could forgive you for thinking otherwise.

Yes, and you don't have to go back too far, either.

>just as America was ruined by the Irish and Italians. Get over yourself. The next generation of nativists will probably be made up Mexican, Filipino and Nigerian-Americans. They will be furious at the Congolese and Indonesian immigrants arriving here.

There is such a thing as degrees of difference, not everybody is equally foreign. Irish and Italian immigrants of the latter 1800's/early 1900's were far closer to the old-stock Americans than are Mexicans, Filipinos, Nigerians, etc. At a certain point, the gulf becomes too wide. And it's not as if it's just a matter of le ebil ignorant bigoted nativists keeping the newcomers out of their club- post 1965 immigrants very often seem actively contemptuous, resentful, hostile towards (what's left of) Ye Olde America. They don't want to be part of it.

>>18237382
Perhaps, but is that really the ideal outcome? Japan will suffer in the meantime with an aging and declining population. Russia and China, if they didn’t suffer through tremendous poverty, famine, and war in the 20th century, would be far richer now than it is today, despite both being strong countries.

But let’s say we take Tucker Carlson’s route and close down America’s borders. We’re going to fall into the Japan/Hungary demographic trap, and you can’t force people to have babies as they’ve learned. That’s going to seriously strain our economy as we have less young, healthy Americans taking care of the economy. At least we’ll have car factories in Michigan! Only they’ll cost much more and won’t be better, because that’s how comparative advantage works. Trade wars are never profitable. So now nationalist America is poorer, weaker, and more prone to being bullied by other countries. Congrats

>>18237390
Remind me, what’s the trend between gdp per capita and education? If you want to be racist about it, consider it as us stealing the third world’s best and brightest for our benefit

>>18237401
I’m a social Democrat, I’m actually more skeptical of the market than the average person. But you know what? You guys are the same as commies, you think you can defy basic economic principles and create a state that’s successful because it’s more traditional and based on racialist nonsense, just as they do clutching onto their 19th century Marxist literature. 4chan is not real life. Sorry. Read Rawls and Why Nations Fail

>>18237290
The competitiveness against China lies in the fact that all innovation stems from the West, it stems from demographics (U.S. has a really good demographic future when it comes to age at least, whereas China will collapse from theirs). China has been in their best years these last two decades, that is about to change as a large amount of Chinese become old and there are very few people to replace them. Not to mention that China is completely reliant on U.S. for success, and their over-financilization is a killer in itself.


>look at Japan. They will literally disappear without immigration.
No they won't. Why do I keep seeing this retarded argument?

>>18237463
I should add:

>Are you an American?
>Yes...

Like the posters above me, I don't even associate "American" with anything all that meaningful. The modern USA is just a gigantic marketplace where a bunch of strangers happen to live next to each other. Someone being a "fellow American" means nothing to me. The open-society nullifies the meaning of citizenship and nationhood.

>>18235566
Communism is just liberalism with the theory turned up and the pragmatism turned down.

Not the guy you replied to

>>18237464
>Perhaps, but is that really the ideal outcome?
Ideal? No, idealism is not reality. It's preferable compared to the alternative, we have seen, and sadly will have to live through it as well, what happens when you replace the native population in countries. It's not something positive. There are more important things than consumerism and GDP numbers. Japan has suffered for 30 years now, they have had no growth for 30 years, but at least they are still Japanese and they still live in a Japanese Japan.

America has the second best demographic future age-wise in the world right now, after New Zealand. There is no demographic trap coming within the next generations for now, even if you closed the borders tomorrow. And even with closed borders, it's not like no one would get in. America is one of the few countries that actually does some part of immigration well where it takes in skilled labor, which is good for the economy and that wouldn't change with closed borders.

Comparative advantage by all means, but there is also something called national security. The cheapest alternative isn't always the best alternative. Having China control large portions of sensitive markets like healthcare or rare earth elements is negative, for example regardless of what the theory of comparative advantage says.

>>18237433
>>18237485
>the open-society nullifies the meaning of citizenship and nationhood.

I don’t understand, I thought you guys wanted to retvrn to tradition? The Westphalian nation state is the peak of modernity, and has only existed for a brief instance of history.

An American caliphate based on the religion of liberalism sounds dangerously based, thank you for that analysis. You’re right that we’ll always have ‘nations’ like black Americans within it because white Americans have tried to keep them separate since the very start, but like the Arabs we might start assimilating with other immigrant groups until we form the ‘American’ ethnicity. That’s some real raza cosmica shit, looking forward to it

>>18237464
>Perhaps, but is that really the ideal outcome? Japan will suffer in the meantime with an aging and declining population.
All they have to do is cut pensions lol.

>But let’s say we take Tucker Carlson’s route and close down America’s borders. We’re going to fall into the Japan/Hungary demographic trap, and you can’t force people to have babies as they’ve learned
Communist countries successfully boosted the birth rate above 3 when they decided that they needed more workers - by banning abortion and contraception. It's quite simple to do really, it just requires one to not care about "rights" or "democratic values".

>That’s going to seriously strain our economy as we have less young, healthy Americans taking care of the economy.
You're just encouraging more dependents to move to the US. There is basically never anything gained by adding low-IQ people to a society.

> At least we’ll have car factories in Michigan! Only they’ll cost much more and won’t be better, because that’s how comparative advantage works.
I don't care about car factories in Michigan. US manufacturing will never be competitive as long as it prints the world reserve currency and suffers from Common Law, at any rate. Americans are too slipshod to really be any good at manufacturing anyway.

>So now nationalist America is poorer, weaker, and more prone to being bullied by other countries.
I'm not a nationalist or a patriot, just a humble inhabitant of an economic zone that prefers it to not be more of a shithole than it already is.

>Remind me, what’s the trend between gdp per capita and education?
Education is a proxy for IQ, IQ correlates neatly with economic growth rates.

>>18237464
>Perhaps, but is that really the ideal outcome? Japan will suffer in the meantime with an aging and declining population.

"Oh no, a temporary decline in material conditions!" At least there will still be a Japan. If millions of foreigners are brought into Japan to become "New Japanese," Japan will cease to exist. Doesn't matter if there's still a place on the map called "Japan."

>and you can’t force people to have babies as they’ve learned.
No, but as social circumstances always change. The current lack of fertility in Japan isn't some necessary racial condition of the Japanese people, it's an unwitting response to certain social conditions... and I believe that birthrates ARE rising in Hungary.

>At least we’ll have car factories in Michigan! Only they’ll cost much more and won’t be better, because that’s how comparative advantage works.

True, but income disparities will be narrower. That car might cost more, but at least the guy who built it might have a chance of affording it. (He certainly can't right now, since he's working as a cashier at Wal-Mart). As a self-proclaimed social democrat who (allegedly) cares about the working class, you should recognize the incompatibility between strong proletarian wages and liberal immigration policy. Big business wants open immigration so that it can saturate the labor market thus devaluing labor and driving down costs.

I also like how you assume that I subscribe to some kind of "shut down all the borders, no foreign trade! Zero immigration! Everyone must be pure-stock going back 1,000 years!" mentality.

>>18237529
>I don’t understand, I thought you guys wanted to retvrn to tradition?
Not a traditionalist.

>An American caliphate based on the religion of liberalism sounds dangerously based, thank you for that analysis.
If you want to own things like declaring advanced math courses to be racist, go ahead... that's what Massachusetts Liberalism is about lol

>You’re right that we’ll always have ‘nations’ like black Americans within it because white Americans have tried to keep them separate since the very start, but like the Arabs we might start assimilating with other immigrant groups until we form the ‘American’ ethnicity. That’s some real raza cosmica shit, looking forward to it.
Brazil already tried this. There is no "Brazilian" ethnicity, just a mass of macacos. There is something deeply soijak-ish about this sentiment, but that comes with the territory of having earnest pride in America and The American Idea.

>>18235372
>NYT columnist quoted on front
you can be absolutely certain that this book is neither prescient nor worth reading

>>18237371
Nothing? I was interested in your response to my points.

>>18237566
>American "thinker"
>worth reading
You didn't even need to read that far mate.

>>18237529
>you guys
>Assuming everyone with whom you disagree is identical

>The Westphalian nation state is the peak of modernity, and has only existed for a brief instance of history.

True, and I don't hold it up as an ideal. I'm just making it clear that I'm not some gung-ho American nationalist. In fact tend to oppose nationalism (but that's nationalism in the literal and correct sense, not "nationalism as an antonym for globalism"). Nevertheless, if you want to have A_SOCIETY, it sure is helpful for the people within it to have a sense of connection with one another deeper than a stamped piece of paper. As for citizenship, well that is a concept which far predates the modern political era by almost 3 millennia. And having an open society DOES make citizenship meaningless.

>>18237590
> And having an open society DOES make citizenship meaningless.
If anything it’s becoming an inhibition

>>18237371
>>18237568
Sorry, busy with other replies:
I don’t really disagree with anything you said. You’re right that Europe is doing an extremely poor job at assimilating immigrants and refugees, but I think they can and need to do better. The EU federalists understand; Europe needs to unite and become demographically younger if they want to stand on their own two feet and not be a cheap vacation spot in the future.

But America *is* that success story, and it already has civic nationalism for assimilationism. The average immigrant is actually pretty proud of being American, those who aren’t are either here or on Twitter. Muslims as an example were before 9/11 an Republican-voting minority, and now are liberal Democrats. They’re not jihadis, their Islam is incredibly Americanized. That’s why I have no concern with immigration here.

As for worshipping big line going up: it’s less that I love the almighty dollar and more that I’m a materialist. Spiritualism matters of course for the average American but I don’t think we need to enforce spiritual values on people. What people do care about is having enough money to send their kids to college and affording a house, and that’s something the market and the state should collaborate to support.

>>18237529
>but like the Arabs we might start assimilating with other immigrant groups until we form the ‘American’ ethnicity. That’s some real raza cosmica shit, looking forward to it

Anon, I don't... I don't think Arabs are a great example of a successful ethnogenesis out of disparate peoples."Arab nationalism" was the big idea in the Arab world of the 20th century, with strong support from politicians and intellectuals... and every time it failed miserably, which is why Islamic fundamentalism was able to find such strong purchase.

>>18237627
>What people do care about is having enough money to send their kids to college and affording a house, and that’s something the market and the state should collaborate to support.
Well this has become less available the more we have “assimilated” ourselves. Ironic

>>18237642
True, it’s a bit problematic of a comparison. I meant it as in the Arab explosion and the gradual assimilation of Egypt/North Africa/Syria into the Arab world.

>>18235546
Agreed

>>18237657
That’s a policy problem not a demographic one. Based Biden is expanding the welfare state, and building more houses / lowering corporate taxes / implementing NIMBY and Georgian policies will go a long way.

>>18237627
god I hate these people so much
I really do
fucking bugman
America is a collapsing society with nothing worth preserving left inside its borders. It's dead. You have no response to race realism, you have no answer to the complete spiritual degradation and humiliation of the average person living here. It's a country of drug addicts and wageslaves ruled over by a persnickety jewish elite that uses malicious propaganda to demoralize, economic precarity and debt to control, and anarcho-tyranny to terrorize. You have no solutions for people exposed to third world violence and customs brought here by your precious immigrants, and you don't care because you have a bourgeois job that lets you live in an isolated middle class community away from it. I hope you get raped and murdered by a pack of the feral niggers you think are your pets.

>>18236947
Accurate even if you’re giving psychotic and brutally sadistic Jews a pass

>>18237118
Does it though? We should strive to limit the influence of authority on social order which is the basic premise of liberalism. Not anymore, now do gooders want to use the state to enforce social order. Very contradictory and under the guise of liberalism doesn't make it so, or inevitable.

>>18237642
Muslims are liberalizing. I know most people don’t believe this is the case but if you spend 5 minutes on their social media they’re very quickly becoming accepting of LGBT, feminism etc. Young people don’t stand a chance against liberal hegemony so long as they’re raised on social media. I do not understand why so many people ignore what’s actually happening here. Liberalism is imploding (as if it doesn’t perpetually implode already) but it’s being eclipsed by a new progressive variant born from itself, widely adopted in mass culture, in our institutions and with our youth. It’s not unlike Christianity becoming the state religion of the Roman Empire even as it was dying. Liberalism is simultaneously degenerating but more powerful than ever

>>18237118
Israel is the keystone of the post-cold war neoliberal order, if you don't understand that you don't understand liberalism.

>>18237227
>To win elections, you need money
>Influential private entities provide you with money to win
See that's not how it used to work and these are problems that CAN be fixed. It's like saying immigration can't be fixed, it obviously can it's just that no one in power wants to fix it. The solution to solve political problems isn't politics.

>>18237697
That's not some kind of organic process that's 'just happening', it's the product of hundreds of billions of dollars being pumped into a propaganda complex of NGOs and media outlets by a tiny elite desiring this outcome.

>>18237044
>authoritarian societies
You are increasingly living under one in the name of Globohomo Leftism. Being a liberal under this neo colonialism is not going to do much for you. You will still be a consumptive woke slave for the state.

>>18237627
>As for worshipping big line going up: it’s less that I love the almighty dollar and more that I’m a materialist. Spiritualism matters of course for the average American but I don’t think we need to enforce spiritual values on people. What people do care about is having enough money to send their kids to college and affording a house, and that’s something the market and the state should collaborate to support.

There is an inverse relationship between liberal immigration and strong working wages. This is a matter of fact, not opinion. During the early trump administration, large farm owners were complaining about having to actually (shock!) pay their workers more (I believe it was the National Review or Atlantic highlighting this as something terrible). The argument is often made "They're just doing the jobs Americans aren't willing to do!" No, they're doing the jobs that Americans aren't willing to do AT THAT PRICE.

Why do you think every major corporation is on board with immigration? Because they're warm-hearted humanitarians? No, because they want to drive down the cost of labor. Hell, even Cesar Chavez noted this (his brother would actually organize violence against illegal immigrant workers). Why do you think the entire government thinks immigration is great? Because they're warm-hearted humanitarians? No, because they understand that a diverse population is a divided population, and a divided population is a more easily controlled population (related example: Amazon supporting diversity in Whole Foods stores because their studies showed them that a more diverse workforce is less likely to organize).

>>18237627
Ah yes, the Europeans must do a better job of assimilating 70IQ Congolese so they can have Young People supporting The Economy. This will absolutely work. No, there will be no dysfunctional behavior or lower quality-of-life, as can be observed in any black-majority American city.

>>18237682
Based Biden is raising corporate taxes and will give the US the highest marginal capital gains tax rate in the world by a wide margin if he is elected.
>building more houses / lowering corporate taxes / implementing NIMBY and Georgian policies will go a long way.
Have you ever thought about why the Democrats do not do any of these things?

>>18237701
>See that's not how it used to work and these are problems that CAN be fixed.
The US has never had a legitimate election by the standards of contemporary India or Mexico.

>>18237701
>just get the money out of politics!
You have no solutions.

>>18237710
Of course, but that’s the direction Liberalism has decided to go in. These values today of equality, diversity, liberty and freedom as the same values liberalism was founded upon. This was inevitably going to happen, they were inevitably going to force the world to go in this direction, because they’re paranoid of their own demise. This is liberalism’s swan song and it’s not gonna be pretty. Trump was the last dying breath of the old America and soon all the classical principles will collapse too, because as it turns you, you cannot have a functioning country if you don’t even have a society.

>>18237721
sorry, "If his tax plan goes through".

>>18237717
He thinks all of those things are net positives because he's a bought out cunt with a cushy job.

>>18237627
>You’re right that Europe is doing an extremely poor job at assimilating immigrants and refugees, but I think they can and need to do better
How exactly do you go about assimilating large numbers of people who don't want to be assimilated? They hate you, they hate the West and they don't even have a high school education which means they will never qualify for a job, all the while they live on welfare and commit crime. How do you assimilate these people?

>>18237750
More importantly they're being TAUGHT to hate the West and white people in general. What does this guy say about the way people are being brought here by the millions then pitted against the native population? Anything?
>b-b-but big line go up...

>>18237750
I don't think they hate random French (for example) or the West per se, obviously some of the Muslims might. The issue is they're not French and they have an average IQ of like 70 and behave badly relative to the native population - how is such a person going to be a net contributor? What are you going to do when your country becomes 50% African after 100 years of this policy? People who encourage this have no experience of the realities of black-majority cities in the US. They're just goofy human quokkas.

>>18237731
>Our Values. It's inevitable.
The same "firm believers in Liberal Values" would be sieg heiling in 10 years max if the CIA decided to change its messaging in the media. Does no one remember how the US pivoted from causal bloodthirst towards Muslims to "Islamophobia" as a political talking point within around 10 years?

>>18237290
What Jewish cope and lies. All RELATIVE measures of standard of living have been decreasing for decades now. You can see this most pronouncedly in relative wages which have stagnated since the 1970’s and in the relative costs of education and healthcare. The people coming here are low IQ Oompa Loompa leaf blower slaves. Unlike every other wave of immigration before them they are not rising in the ranks of prestige and pay with following generations. There are 20 million plus Mexicans in the US, name a single inventor, tech start up, name literally anyone even remotely noteworthy of Mexican decent, you can’t because they don’t exist. They are an improvement over niggers but not any more intelligent. I live in LA and am surrounded by really great Mexicans. They really are really good family people but they’re dumb as bowling balls which they physically turn into by age 30. Jews LOVE this because they pose no risk being so dumb.

>>18237735
No I’m not lol, I come from a wealthy family that loves trump and watches Tucker every night. I’m a recent university grad in a social science major, I’m not planning on making much money.

>>18237734
Some democrats are supportive. NIMBYism is getting big with young people because they need housing and there’s a strong social justice component to it. Trump was always against it and made Ben Carson as Sec of HUD, now boomers watching Fox are told that suburbia is the height of tradition.

I’m not sympathetic to Amazon, I support universal unionization. Here’s a study showing the economic merits of immigration: https://www.epi.org/publication/bp255/

Something to keep in mind is that immigrants fill up jobs but they also increase demand since they consume stuff as well. That’s why we don’t worry about babies stealing jobs when the population is growing. However, you’re right that it does harm certain workers, which is why we need to send them checks and build more housing to support immigration to cities where there’s more work.

>>18237750
IDK anon but Britain’s doing a reasonable job of it.

>>18237290
>They will literally disappear without immigration.
You sound like that Jewish psychopath in Europe who says Europe will be destroyed by Jews lest they won’t survive lol

>>18237315
This is accurate

>>18237784
Astronomically based and cosmologically redpilled

>>18237791
It's such a freakish way of thinking. The obvious course of action to anyone that isn't a complete maniac is to address the underlying problems in Japanese society so that people can form families and have children again, not to import a hundred million niggers. Liberals aren't human.

>>18237363
Hrs also 3/4th Jewish

>>18237787
>IDK anon but Britain’s doing a reasonable job of it.
Are they really? British crime statistics say otherwise.

Just the pedo grooming gangs alone is a cost that you could never pay back even with the best assimilation.

Let's face reality, no country and least of that Britain is doing anywhere close to a reasonable job of it. Ethnics brits are a minority in their own capital for gods sake.

>>18237787
You go to jail for posting the word 'nigger' on facebook in Britain you utter faggot

>>18237627
I dunno. I wish to be polite but I must tell you I physically felt sort of sick reading this. Again, people are not cogs you can just switch out for one another, and the nations of Europe will have to realize this sooner or later. You speak of European federalism, but again you fail to understand why that will fail, because to you, cultural, religious, and ethnic tensions are not real. You don't understand that these things are things people have been and will always be willing to kill and die over. Your worldview is overly reductive, and because of this, you're making a big mistake.

>>18237701
>See that's not how it used to work
True, at the beginning of a representative system born out of crisis (early USA), you have a higher-quality person who seeks public office. They might have written "all men are created equal" and subscribed to enlightenment ideals, but the signators of the Declaration of Independence were basically an ersatz aristocracy: major landowners with liberal (you know what I mean) educations, who relied on income from land ownership, rather than being engaged in commerce (generally). They were, in all but name, noblemen.

But if you don't have a continual state of crisis, there will be a decline in the type of man who seeks out public office (and more importantly,the bureaucracy, which I would say has become more powerful than the elected government). Each generation, the caliber of political man degenerates. Just compare a presidential speech from the post-Nixon era to any president from the 1800's (aside from Andrew Johnson, who was a tard)- it's like the difference between an address given to middle-schoolers versus grad students.

>These are problems that CAN be fixed. It's like saying immigration can't be fixed, it obviously can it's just that no one in power wants to fix it. The solution to solve political problems isn't politics.

How? What is your plan for fixing any of this? "LOL, just get money out of politics!" Democracy IS the politics of money. "The solution to political problems isn't politics"? Ok, what is it, then? You say you're a social democrat, and I do believe that you legitimately mean well, but you're just being a stooge for the powers you claim to oppose.

>>18237812
I like to think I do understand where ethnic, cultural, and religious tensions come from to a degree. What should make you feel better though anon is that this has happened many times before and will happen again.
Germany used to be a squabbling mess of little states with no conception of fraternity, that hemorrhaged itself over and over on religious conflicts. The gulf between a Catholic then and a Protestant was as wide as a German and a Syrian now. Then nationalism happened and they united. This would be alien to someone 2-3 centuries earlier.

I’m sure the Eurabian Union will be embroiled in a transhumanist conflict in 2221 and this will all be forgotten

>>18237801
Of course. But the elites want to raise the draw bridge so they can keep their power and money. They do this by keeping the common man unorganized and satiated. They scariest thing to a neoliberal elite is a healthy group of subjects having healthy families red pilling the shit out of each other early and often. It’s much better for them to import as many people as possible and as unlikely to assimilate as possible the better. That way the chaos at the street level will prevent any
competition at the top. Western elites are brutally evil and selfish.

>>18237787
>No I’m not lol, I come from a wealthy family that loves trump and watches Tucker every night. I’m a recent university grad in a social science major, I’m not planning on making much money.
Heh, you fit my stereotypical image of you perfectly.

>Some democrats are supportive. NIMBYism is getting big with young people because they need housing and there’s a strong social justice component to it.
It doesn't matter what they say - ignore all SocJus rhetoric and watch revealed preferences. In the US "affordable housing" = blacks move in = everyone else moves out. One can read many accounts in the 1960s of affulent American Liberals who felt very strongly about integration - probably more so than contemporary college students fell about YIMBY - and made vows with each other to not move away, no matter what happened. They all ended up moving.

>>18237787
>IDK anon but Britain’s doing a reasonable job of it.
I do not have an appropriate reaction image for this statement.

>>18237842
>That way the chaos at the street level will prevent any
competition at the top. Western elites are brutally evil and selfish.
I still don’t understand why. How much do you need before you are satisfied? Plus then you have to spend all your time doing degenerate things and betraying your own people

>>18237835
That's not an inevitable process at all and completely wrong. Just look at Yugoslavia or the breakup of the USSR. This is a matter of policy and propaganda, not some inevitable force of history driving us ever forward to homogeneity.

>>18237699
Israel itself is not a liberal society. Jewish Israelis generally practice liberal behavior among themselves, but do not extend this to out-groups. As such, it is not a liberal society.

No non-Western society has internalized liberalism. Most have adopted aspects of it, but none have taken it in wholesale, which is the proof (thus far) that liberalism is NOT a universal value system, but rather something particular to the West.

>>18237851
????

>>18237782
Nah. People are too far gone into progressivism to ever change their mind on it. This is the status quo now, it's the next epoch in liberalism and most likely its final. You're gonna have to deal with pronouns, transgenderism, racial grievance, minority worship and leftist activism for the rest of your life. It's not like our institutions have any interests in moving away from that any time soon.

>>18237851
Been taking male and female hormones for years now. It’s made my life completely nuts. After 4 years of this when I coom now my prostate releases milk that squirts out of my analcunt as chocolate milk. 10 foot squirts are not uncommon. One time I was getting mating pressed and when I busted my prostate I torrented a gusher into a ceiling fan. The hotel room was positively devastated. I ran out but they charged me $3500 for “repairs” and they banned me from all their chains and resorts.

I need to stop this but I can’t. I’m addicted to the lifestyle and insanity. Every 6 months I have to move to a new city because I’ve developed such a reputation. I’m spending about $20K a month on these misadventures and drugs.

>>18237866
I didn't say Israel is a liberal society, I'm saying jewish diaspora (i.e. the core of western elites) enforce liberalism outside of israel as part of the broader strategy of internationalist zionism.

>>18237874
I actually think this is mostly true, but not because of some inevitable characteristics of the liberal value system - contemporary liberal values are a reaction to WW2, so unless a greater catastrophe happens that eclipses WW2, contemporary victimary morality will largely continue, because it's what the elite themselves have been socialized into. Even at the top US "feeder schools" for the elite universities, students are learning privilege checking and internalized racism (pathetic). But it's only true because it's what the elite choose to promote through media. To say that "people's minds are too far gone into progressivism" implies that most people require more than a gentle push from Power to move them in a given direction - the 20th Century should prove this false.

>>18237846
I’m an American so I don’t know all the details, but why not? From my POV the Tories have all but succeeded in creating a permanent conservative majority that draws from both the white working class and immigrants. That’s a strong foundation, as much as I dislike them. Obviously the former UKIP people want less immigrants but that’s an insurmountable goal for them, the Tories conned you guys into thinking brexit meant no more of them.

>>18237787
>IDK anon but Britain’s doing a reasonable job of it.
neolibs live in a different world than us

>>18237902
>"I am a PoliSci/Econ major from an affulent American family. Let me tell you about your country: "

>>18237899
WW1 was a far greater catastrophe for France and the UK than WW2, yet they still rushed headlong into the second war. This isn't some kind of organic cultural reaction, it's a political consequence of total jewish victory.

>>18237900
tories arent conservative, first of all. their only interest is securing votes. combining worship of free market economy, fear of nationalisation and promising but never delivering immigration reduction attracts a lot of people.

>>18237916
Americans have a knack for that shit

>>18237874
I really want it tonbe not true, but yeah thats it. Yurops better saddle up forway more of that shit quite soon

>>18237919
they rushed in to ww2 out of desperation to prove they were still powerful, like a 35 year old woman tells herself shes still got it

>>18237874
>You're gonna have to deal with pronouns, transgenderism, racial grievance, minority worship and leftist activism for the rest of your life.
The Happening is not outside the realm of possibility anon.

Well it’s been fun /lit/ but I’m going to bed now. Good luck on the nationalism and fighting international jewry, and good night!

>>18237937
Wow that's fucking retarded. If they're so desperate to prove their power then they could've declared war on the USSR instead of Germany.

>>18237315
Is there any solution?

>>18237952
good luck with your big line going up and infinity niggers faggot

>>18237965
But it was Germany that was threatening them

>>18237976
Completely wrong, Germany was no threat to them and in fact promised to be a strong buffer between the West and the communists.

>>18237970
Not really, just try to survive the upcoming cyberpunk wasteland I guess

>>18236251
Cope

>>18235531
yeah, you got filtered by a review of all things lol

>>18237664
>True, it’s a bit problematic of a comparison. I meant it as in the Arab explosion and the gradual assimilation of Egypt/North Africa/Syria into the Arab world.
It uh, still didn't exactly work out wonderfully for everyone who wasn't an Arab.

To be clear, I am the same anon who wrote this post:
>>18237590
I'm noticing that you aren't responding to a lot of the posts I've made here, and that's ok, you seem busy enough, but I do hope you're reading them. Your description of yourself...

>No I’m not lol, I come from a wealthy family that loves trump and watches Tucker every night. I’m a recent university grad in a social science major, I’m not planning on making much money.

...is pretty instructive. Like, I get it. Mainstream American "conservatism" is retarded and often reprehensible, and it's easy to see that as the only foil to your own beliefs- beliefs which were presumably formed as a reaction against your social environment. But like... step out of your bubble, dude. You call yourself a social democrat, and yet your opinions are a betrayal of the convictions that lead you to having said ideology.

Further, you needn't be a religious person to oppose a materialistic worldview. Yes, people are inclined in the absence of religion to form secular religions (whether SJW-ism, or Communism, or race-worship, or whatever), but there are things which have value which are unrelated to economic matters. The history and customs of a people are such a thing. Being part of a historical narrative that allows one to feel at home in the world, rather than just an atomized nobody in the global marketplace. These things (history, posterity, community, customs) are essential to human well-being, and there is a reason why people will defend MUH_TRADITION so vehemently, even if they lack the ability to articulate why. Liberalism necessitates the eradication of all this- a planet of "individuals" whose individualism is nothing more than what they pulled of the shelf. No concern for anything of higher value, for the past, for the future, for community, because these are impediments for the individual to liberate themselves from all external constraints, to be able to define themselves fully on their own terms and nothing else. The problem is that the inheritance of this "liberation" is a wasteland.

>>18236533
Tom Cotton 2024

>>18237290
stupidest take i've heard in some time

you ever notice anything about say, where blacks and whites both live? yeah they are literally all shitholes every single one of them you cannot mix people together it is not possible and completely unethical

>>18235531
You're actually a fucking moron if you let a review from some kike working for the NYT influence your decision to read a book.

>>18237965
democracy and communism are basically the same before fascism.

>>18238083
the fact the NYT reviewed it tells me it is not based and redpilled enough

>>18238029
>Liberalism necessitates the eradication of all this- a planet of "individuals" whose individualism is nothing more than what they pulled of the shelf. No concern for anything of higher value, for the past, for the future, for community, because these are impediments for the individual to liberate themselves from all external constraints, to be able to define themselves fully on their own terms and nothing else. The problem is that the inheritance of this "liberation" is a wasteland.
They don't even do that! Honest heroic individualism would in many ways be a refreshing respite from post-WW2 victim worship.

>>18237480
>China has been in their best years these last two decades, that is about to change as a large amount of Chinese become old and there are very few people to replace them.
true, 2020 and covid will be considered the high water mark for china this century

>>18238098
Victim-worship and identity politics are an (increasingly) anti-liberal stream of leftist thinking, so I don't really count it as Liberalism. (Even though liberal actors will gladly utilize these things to suite their ends... not realizing that they are yielding moral authority to a force which they will not be able to control)

>>18238007
Well based on the author's views, we'll get distributism (personnally hoping it's catholic) and not a dystopia at the end of liberalism. The collapse will be hard though. When do you think it'll really kick in? By kick in, I'm not talking about Trump style flashes in the pan, but true collapse

>>18236505
this is why the swastika needs to be repurposed
the wheel rotates fellas
everything runs its course and feeds the human soul the nectar it needs at different !!!times!!!

>>18238166
True collapse in the US will be Venezuela-style hyperinflation and shortages, it'll probably never recover.

>>18237835
I'm going to be honest with you, and I don't mean to insult you. When I opened this thread I was disillusioned with the current trend of "liberalism" and all, but I was still sympathetic to the idea of it. But interacting with you and your view of things... how can people like you exist? You have no love for anything but money, no sense of culture or of heritage or of faith. For you, there is no God but money and "Liberalism" is its messenger. You are fine with the idea of sacrificing everything for money. You shrug off accusations of only caring about "green line going up", but that's all you care about! If this is what a liberal is, then I sincerely hope someone else wins. Whether that's the CCP or Saudis or Zionists or something like climate change, something has to defeat this ideology you are spouting. Your "liberalism" is genuinely evil. Again and again I'm telling you that people aren't cogs in a machine that are replaceable, and again and again you don't get it. People have beliefs they are willing to die for, beliefs that the pleasures of liberalism can erode but never truly kill. And I think you don't get it because you as a wealthy person isolated from the true power of what you want to unleash, don't have beliefs which aren't subordinate to liberalism.


Listen to me, please: you do not understand what your ideology will do. Your liberalism will not create a utopia, it will not create an America, it will not even create a Brazil. It will create an urban hellscape rife with religious, ethnic, and racial violence, all while wealthy people like you live in safety while the rest of us struggle. This is not liberalism by any stretch of the word, you will create a neofeudal dystopia.

>>18238197
Is the current inflation crisis in the US and Canada the beginning of that?

>>18238208
>>18238197
Won't happen until the dollar is no longer the reserve currency. I expect a world war before the USA gives that up.

>>18238124
Explain, they are on par with America and are only growing stronger.

>>18238204
It's worse than that - liberals don't even make the green line go up in the long run, and they don't actually create brute materialists, but cringy aspirants to victimhood. All these types are going to do is create an utter shithole.

>>18238208
Yes, but it'll take awhile.

>>18238214
USD is going to cease to be the reserve currency sooner than you think.

>>18238161
You follow possibly the biggest misconception people fall into today. That stuff is liberalism. It's liberalism in a pathetic decline; paranoid about the future, guilty of its own existence, repentant for its past. The entire goal is to include as many identities as possible into the liberal hegemony. All of this anti-racism and diversity is done in the name of global liberalism, don't be mistaken just because leftists are too stupid and condescending to realize they're not actually the communists they claim they are. That's why every institution and NGO is moving progressive, it's totally systemic even if it betrays the original principles of liberalism. But that's kind of the point. It's imploding.

>>18238166
I don't believe we'll have a violent collapse... at least I hope we don't. People are too decadent to take action for anything, and most of the ideologies proliferating today are either just the liberal status quo or an embarrassingly re-enactment of past ideologies that are obsolete, like American pretending to be Black Panthers. More likely I just see a very sad decay of society with a huge increase in violence, poverty and ressentiment, but not a world war or anything. No one believes in anything to fight for anymore, the most they'll do is cry on twitter.

>>18235546
yeah this

>>18238230
>USD is going to cease to be the reserve currency sooner than you think.
I know China is trying to move things in that direction, but American elite aren't that stupid. They'll start a war with China rather than just let it happen.

>>18237692
>Does it though?
Out of all the trials that have been done so far, yes. Liberalism as an ideology has no built in way of enforcing a rigid social order -- to do so is by definition illiberal. So society will inevitably be "liberated" of race, class, religion, place, age, culture, and sex, until nothing is left but a mass of maggots in an economic zone called a country.

>>18238264
the united states elites just seem so clueless about how to right the ship, biden is pushing all these gibs programs for people who have kids, but the middle class people that made the economy strong aren't going to suddenly have three kids just because they get a $500 voucher for day care and a couple extra grand tax deduction, they need to drastically change healthcare and housing costs, but as the country gets poorer those get more costly to fix.

>>18238239
If society ends like that. it'll be sad. Do you think religion (not trad, that's just retarded) might be a good cope/escape from this? People become more religious as times get harsh and uncertain

>>18238264
There are actually pros and cons to having a reserve currency, it's not all good. USA might give it up voluntarily at some point: https://www.lynalden.com/fraying-petrodollar-system/

>>18237975
NO YOU DON'T GET IT IF THE LINE ON THE GRAPH GOES UP THAT MEANS THE LIBERALISM IS WORKING!!

>>18235478
Until what?

op liberalism already failed 50 years ago

>>18238311
The US is run by morons - is it really so surprising? We're talking about the country that abolished the civil service exam for being "racist".

>>18238351
It'd be funny if we didn't have nukes

>>18238351
this is the only book that gave me any hope of people having a clue what to do in the 21st century, and it's worth noting the author is an engineer from minnesota with no east coast or ivy affiliations

the same way it took a long time for hippy goals like legal weed and electric cars to become reality, someday new goals from a new generation can become policy, but it will be a long long slog

>>18238320
Progressivism already is a new religion. People are always going to turn to new movements when they fall into despair and they spread extremely fast -- Marxism, Islam, and now this. Traditional religions like Islam and Christianity might see revivals though since the calamities of our age remind us of our mortality. But I doubt they'll have much influence at all. Even Islam is not nearly as powerful as people think it is, every Muslims hates their own governments and think they don't represent the religion. Secular ideologies still run the show

>>18238364
Yup strong towns til the federal government swoops in and dumps a few thousand somalian refugees on your happy asses.

Back to /pol/ book-lets

>>18238361
>he thinks the American nukes work
Top kek, as they say.

>>18238364
>what to do in the 21st century
Meritocratic selection the universities, civil service, and military. Cease all naturalizations of third-world immigrants. Cut government employee pensions, preferably, fire a large percent of the government work force. Implement caning in lieu of prison for minor crimes. Milletization of the blacks. Reform Anglophone land-use laws.

>>18238403
>Top kek, as they say.
Eh? Considering that we are alive and not ash thanks to Russia or China, I'd say MAD is alive and well, which means we have nukes.

>>18238409
Russia and China don't want to risk finding out the hard way if the nukes work =\= the nukes work.

>>18237022
sex gifs

>>18237022
sex gifs

>>18235485
Yeah and Trump is a huge neoliberal piece of shit. What’s your point, retard?

>there are people who genuinely want statist democracy,liberalism and capitalism to win on /lit/

>>18235372
I have a very hard time understanding what our current overlords are doing. I can envision rather simple ways to make the US maintain and grow its wealth and power, which would still allow the elites to exploit everyone and be safe in their position(they'd be safer honestly because the populace would respect them). China is doing some of these things, FDR's New Deal and early Nazi Germany did others, they aren't complicated, practically anyone can think of them because they are literally obvious. Several of the things are a bit more extreme and might require coercion, but god knows they are fine coercing us into believing and doing the insane and dysfunctional things they've chosen as our new state religion these past decades, so that's obviously not the sticking point.

The way they have governed, in part since 1920, and especially since the 60s, seems like utter insanity to me, like they are willing to let the entire empire implode or combust to make extremely short term profits. They would literally make more profit in the long term by strengthening the nation, they'd still remain on top and wildly wealthy and powerful. I can't imagine they could be literally this shortsighted, so I am left with several possibilities- one is that nobody is in charge at all, we are basically living under the shadow of a kind of anarchic orgy of groups of elites; the second is that they actually don't understand what they're doing, which I find very hard to believe, but it's more believable than that they understand the trade-offs and are doing it anyway; the third is that they are purposefully destroying the nation, and just skimming off the top before it collapses.

I mean seriously what the fuck is the endgame here? Why are they trying to create some incoherent Frankenstein of the Gilded Age, the early USSR, and Brazil? They can inflate their accounts with meme currency but they can't hold off the very obviously approaching turmoil and collapse, it's a force of nature coming from 10 different directions, at which point their currency and the global economy will be fucked. Can literally anyone explain in detail what these guys imagine the US is going to look like in 2050 or 2070 and how it is going to be beneficial to them? They are destroying the real economic productivity of the nation(which is their source of wealth), they are destroying the military capability, the social harmony, the cultural unity, the very people themselves no longer reproduce...I just have no fucking clue why they would do any of this, not because it's evil or wrong or bothers me, but because it seems so fucking retarded from their own perspective, wouldn't they rather rule a powerful empire than a crumbling, miserable shithole?

>>18238683
the wealthy and powerful are not unified or singularly organized
>one is that nobody is in charge at all, we are basically living under the shadow of a kind of anarchic orgy of groups of elites
more or less

>>18238683
The seemingly incomprehensible actions of the US are due to a combination of stupidity, religious fervor, and greed among the elite.

>I mean seriously what the fuck is the endgame here? Why are they trying to create some incoherent Frankenstein of the Gilded Age, the early USSR, and Brazil?
What's not to like? The Anointed (them) can become fabulously wealthy. The USSR? Well, at least they were socially progressive, even if the market is preferable to central planning. Brazil? Have you SEEN how diverse they are? Imagine what that says about the universality of the American Idea!

>>18238702
They can't be that separate or we would see clashes of power that reverberated down through society. Instead we see monotonous, univectorial decay, or at least the Ds and Rs coalesce on the absolute most dysfunctional eventuality as they shimmy back and forth a bit(which is itself something of a blessing since both parties frequently propose even more insane policies), with the Ds clearly leading the charge.

I mean this could be some kind of 'emergent order' situation I guess, order from the chaotic struggle of elites, but why are there no Napoleons, no military coups, nothing ever actually happens the way it usually does when sovereignty is ambiguous and the people are awfully governed, it just keeps sinking further. Is this some failure mode of civilization in general that you only see towards the end?

As soon as you say liberalism is one thing it's already something else. Anything else is a cope

>>18238723
>universality of the American Idea
What is the 'American Idea'?

"Import semi-legal slave labor so that undeveloped land rights make you rich"?

That's what America was founded on and what makes her function to this day.

>>18238683
>one is that nobody is in charge at all, we are basically living under the shadow of a kind of anarchic orgy of groups of elites; the second is that they actually don't understand what they're doing, which I find very hard to believe, but it's more believable than that they understand the trade-offs and are doing it anyway; the third is that they are purposefully destroying the nation, and just skimming off the top before it collapses.

Honestly? All three. I see our current era as a period of pure decadence, where basically we're in a situation where the baby boomer generation who lived at the peak of America and now administer it have fallen into ungodly levels of incompetence. They have no fucking idea how to deal with the globalized world, and this is for several reasons. One, their own liberal values are horrendous. The 60s were a time of individualist hedonism and a rejection of authority, and now those same degenerates ARE the authority. Deep inside, they're still the nihilists they've always been.

Secondly, Liberalism is nihilistic in general, so it is very keen on ressentiment. America always required some force to blame for their failures while insisting that they're exceptional and enlightened: the Axis, the commies, and the Muslims. But now with American running the world, and society largely disintegrated, they have no one to point fingers at other than themselves. The crisis in America is a crisis of ressentiment, deep amounts of paranoia, self-hatred, and angst at the world they created yet too supremacist in their liberalism to acknowledge that it's THEIR fault. So they're gonna fight each other forever, and in the process drain every last bit of power before the collapse happens. Trump was the last remnant of the old boomer America, and soon everything else authentically American will die. The American elites at the moment are quite possibly the dumbest fucking ruling class the world has ever seen, and the history will be baffled.

quality thread btw

>>18238750
>"Import semi-legal slave labor so that undeveloped land rights make you rich"?
More or less, but imagine you romanticized it as "bringing the light of Our Democracy to the world". Just look at one of the posters earlier in this thread who is emblematic of the mindset even among many of the elite. Many are genuinely chuffed about the high rates of immigration beyond pure hunger for cheap labor. "How about that? People around the world can become part of American Democracy!" You even have proto-woke messaging like this in the 1910s, I recall one such poster under T. Roosevelt.

>>18237290
>Nationalism cannot survive the postindustrial era, look at Japan. They will literally disappear without immigration.
The reason birthrates in the postindustrial world are even dropping is due to economic conditions (which are actively encouraged) that prevent family formation, cultural attitudes that encourage being a single wage drone (which are also advanced by the powers that be), and in the case of Japan absolute shit work culture.

Also the only reason the US even is a global superpower is because of its dominance of the world economy that was ensured by it not being destroyed in WW2 and by the petrodollar.

>>18237372
>he thinks being part of a people is a consumer product
As always, libs can't see beyond the veil capital has made.

>>18238393
Jews have been using niggers as bioweapons for about 500 years now. I mean this unironically, this is not a joke. Normal people can not even comprehend how evil Jews are or that their evil is genetically encoded within them.

>>18238785
should have said nation but they are the same thing so whatever.
>inb4 nation = country meme
If you think this you have no idea what you are talking about

>>18238166
The simple answer is when the oil runs out, as the modern economy is built on oil. That being said collapse will be a long, slow process, and we've been in it since the '70s. It will just become really apparent when the oil wells run dry.

>>18238683
The same thing happened in Germany prior to WWII. The people responsible fled to America and claimed they were genocided. They are complete psychopaths

>>18237835
>Germany used to be a squabbling mess of little states with no conception of fraternity, that hemorrhaged itself over and over on religious conflicts. The gulf between a Catholic then and a Protestant was as wide as a German and a Syrian now. Then nationalism happened and they united.
The idea of a coherent german identity existed since the early middle ages you utter mongoloid. The HRE was called "The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" for a reason.

I'm not even going to comment on the last part about protestants and catholics and germans and syrians because of how absolutely ill-informed and idiotic it is. Do yo have any knowledge of the world and the history of peoples and cvilizations outside of the stock market report in 1600's Holland?

>>18238840
>Do yo have any knowledge of the world and the history of peoples and cvilizations outside of the stock market report in 1600's Holland?

Same poster:
>No I’m not lol, I come from a wealthy family that loves trump and watches Tucker every night. I’m a recent university grad in a social science major, I’m not planning on making much money.

Can't expect a product of >American Education to know anything about this matter.

>>18235478
>>18235485
>>18235491
>>18235531
>>18236056
Literally proving the books point right here. The process has already begun. Neo-liberals seem incapable of (or perhaps unwilling to) understanding that the single greatest existential threat their ideology faces is from themselves.

>>18238840
>I'm not even going to comment on the last part about protestants and catholics and germans and syrians
Yeah that caught my attention as well lol. If that guy thinks liberalism will lead to the 30 Years War 2.0 and sees it as a victory for liberalism, he's insane

>>18237627
that's a yikes from me dawg

>>18238904
>Neo-liberals seem incapable of (or perhaps unwilling to) understanding that the single greatest existential threat their ideology faces is from themselves.

More than that, basically everyone under the liberal umbrella is too fucking dumb to understand it. Leftists, conservatives, centrists, etc. They literally cannot comprehend that their own values of equality, freedom, liberty and statism is the problem. No one in the mainstream is even talking about the stuff in this thread even though it's clearly the most pivotal conversation to be having right now, this culture war bullshit almost seems like a psyop to distract people from liberalism's own failings and people's complicity in it.

>>18238936
That's because most liberals (left or right) aren't even aware of the existence of liberalism as just one more ideology among others (Deneen states this much in the book). They just see it as the normal way that things are.

It's frustrating that the word liberal has come to mean "progressive-leftism," because it can sometimes make dialogue impossible. Also annoying when it is used to describe legitimately ILLIBERAL ideas/actors etc. Example:
>"Durr, I hate those Antifa liberals"

>>18238785
>liberalism
>capitalism

It's too late for you

>>18238683
>the US is going to look like in 2050 or 2070
the projection is only 30% of kids will be white at this point
personally, i'd rather whites stay above 75% for all time, but as long as the north east stays majority white, the rest of the USA can get fucked.
On one hand I want all the whites to collect in one area so I feel more comfortable, but on the other hand I see the race mixing as an opportunity to breed out the desire to breed out among whites, so the future generations of whites will have more solidarity as they will become a separate class that breeds together exclusively. The real problem is that some Arabs look too white and they fuck things up if they pass for Caucasian.
If you ever thought it would be cool to be from an aristocratic family, all you have to do is not get browned out and pass on wealth/power to your white descendants.

>>18238683
It's almost like the idea of overlords is a dumb nonsensical meme

>>18239016
how do you model power distribution?

>>18239027
Depends what you think power is

>>18235485
>thinks the word liberalism means democrat

>>18239054
If overlords aren't controlling the way society develops, what do you think is shaping that process?

>>18238936
>We are all Dengists now

>>18239054
Power in the sense of Kanye West.

>>18239071
What shaped the process before overlords

>>18238995
>They just see it as the normal way that things are.

>>18238995
>>"Durr, I hate those Antifa liberals"
I agree but also disagree because anarchism is just the most extrem form of liberalism. Do to it being individualist and there for not socialist.

>>18239078
There were overlords since the first farm, and proto-overlords since the first tribe, most social mammals have them.

>>18239103
Overlords like Louis XVI

>>18239095
Eh, there's an argument to be made for that, but very few Antifa are actually committed anarchists; their powerlessness just gives them the luxury of calling themselves such. Give them actual power, though, and they'd put Mao to shame.

(they also prefer to term themselves as anarcho-syndicalists, typically... it gets very complicated. "People's front of Judea..." type stuff)

On the other hand, Libertarians, retarded as they may be, would at least have the integrity to establish libertarianism as a prevailing political order, if given the opportunity.

>>18239128
and overlords like the little groups who usurped him to fight each other for sovereignty, and Napoleon

>>18238204
I had a big spiel I was going to post but I’ll just say this:
I am not spiritual but liberalism does fulfill a void in me beyond material needs. If liberalism collapses and some sort of traditionalist state is instantiated, I would probably kill myself. Which is probably what most of you would want, since this website is severely deprived of empathy. Liberalism gives me the freedom to be a faggot and openly love who I want and be who I want to be. I will not let someone take that away from me.
You seem like a nice person. I seriously recommend reading Rawls and also Isaiah Berlin, they helped steer me towards liberalism and defend pluralist societies.

>>18239248
Well that's the point. You chose liberalism because it's easy. It's an easy way to live by your desires and stay in stagnation while the state is allowed to commit unholy horrors around the world. I won't blame you for finding solace in a system that allows you live by something you otherwise would be punished for doing, but to support the system and ideology as a whole is cowardice. It's the same cowardice that makes liberalism so powerful in the first place. No one is creative or intuitive enough to make a brighter world, so they resort to liberalism to stay within the mindless herd owned by the depraved shepherds because you're too afraid of fighting the wolves.

>>18239248
If it makes any difference to you, I've been one of the most avid posters in this thread, but I legitimately do not care about your sexuality. You'll find no objection to gayness from me. Shine on, rainbow warrior.

(That said, I do think it's a more than a little weird that so many gay people are trying to turn themselves into some kind of ersatz ethnic group. Like the rainbow flags on EVERY BUILDING in one neighborhood of my city give off almost totalitarian vibes. It's... weird. But I kinda get it, and it goes back to liberalism. Being uprooted from any sort of community or living tradition, it's natural that people will attempt to form new tribes so as to have a sense of belonging and meaning. "Gay nationalism" is just kind of a funny one, though. I often hear people denounce the act of "trying to belong" as something negative or juvenile, but this is just their internalization of liberalism speaking... "belonging" is the default state of being, and attempts otherwise are a convention going back only to the last two centuries at most)

>>18235566
communism is late stage liberalism

>>18239399
Communism is liberalism in decay.

>>18239598
Are you seriously suggesting the self-actualisation of the rational human subject is a death state of liberalism?

>>18239322
Are you sure you're avoiding the liberal definition of 'unholy horrors'? Whose metaphysics are you using

>>18239136
Where do they get the power?

>>18239616
>rational human subject
hubris
moral empiricism about any singular system ngmi
the system houses the current identity we wish to strengthen but by no means is it eternal

>>18236505
give the elite even more power, but enforce them the responsibility to use that power well and make it able for them to lose it if they do not serve the people. Right now our democracies aren't doing that since they just allow us to choose the public spokesmen of the elite.

>>18237290
Whatever goes on in your mind, I can't think of it as anything but nightmarish if I were to see it.

>>18239248
This is what it really all comes down.
>I don't care if your town becomes a third world hellhole flooded with Nicaraguans
>I don't care that the only way for this ideology to propagate itself is a huge media complex brainwashing millions of people to hate themselves
>I don't care if social justice commissars infest HR and diversity departments across the country and police your every action
>I don't even care if big line starts going down
>I JUST NEED MY CUMMIES!!!!!!!
Someday you'll get your just desserts you piece of shit.

>>18237290
quantity is not quality, 300mil is more that enough to rule the world. The problem is however that you have destroyed your intellectual centers. American science communities and universities have become a joke compared to their quality in the 50s to 80s, American cities are suburban centers of disconnectedness and your politicians have become showbiz figures. America could have been the promised land by now. But the post war generation raped it.

>>18240668
Yes but in a cruel twist of fate it will probably be after most of us pay the price first

>>18235372
i read this and remembered when /pol/ started talking about anarcho-tyranny on its own and realized that both were absolutely correct

>>18239248
People managed to be fags before, you'll survive. You're not worth the active measures to root out and destroy culture in all its forms that liberalism perpetuates. Liberalism in practice subverts all convention and tradition not for your benefit but in order to make each subject a perfect interchangeable consumer. Among Rawls' many many problems (he's a status quo hack whose "philosophy" is infantile and would be laughable if it wasn't so widely swallowed) is his failure to account for this. Culture cannot exist in a Rawlsian state taken to its conclusion. You narcissistic fuck.

>>18235508
>liberalism requires citizens to function
>liberalism produces atomized consumers as a product of its successful operation
>atomized consumers can't be citizens
>increasingly illiberal means are required to keep liberalism functioning
basically civic virtue is a finite resource and we're pretty much out of it

>>18235566
double digits confirm communism is inevitable

>>18241264
This thread has done more to push me towards communism than anything else in a long time. It's a shame communism seems to be anti-cultural as well, but at least it's not the horrific thing the liberals itt are in love with.

>>18236958
bloody maoist revolution that ends in general collapse or automated techno prison until resources grow scarce enough the the elites to have the world population culled by drones, preserving small sample populations as a genetic library

>>18237243
The west is falling apart, if you want to continue on this path learn Mandarin and ingratiate yourself to some CCP party members.

Ted is and has always been in 23hr lockdown with zero human interaction in ADX Florence. 1 hr outdoor rec in a cage. Sorry to wreck your BBC fantasies.

>>18237178
people can live a life of stuggle and deprivation if it's freely accepted and struggling towards a safe, stable society. people can't live a hopeless life of declining returns with no recourse to the law and no escape

>>18241280
Communism does not work.

>>18237433
true americans existed and still exist. even 200 years ago the difference between an anglo born in america and an anglo born in britain was insane

>>18237899
that's a symptom of decadence too, it means that the rising tide is no longer lifting all boats and all gains from growth are going staight to the elite. hence their remarkable ability to gatekeep. having to hide your power level is strictly a function of coming up with arbitrary conditions for job selection in the age of "this entry level position requires five years' experience"

>>18241306
It hasn't, but look at the situation (and yes this is a gross oversimplification):
1. Liberalism. No. I don't like this destructive, atomizing, ideology. I think it is rather evil, with its only saving grace being it protects minority rights (even if to an absurd degree).
2. Conservative. Maybe? But such regimes end up becoming totalitarian and trample on the rights of minorities. Maybe it could work if a benevolent ruler was at the top, but history doesn't really have examples of that (maybe some Ottoman sultans who were sympathetic to non-Muslims are the closest example).
3. Marxist/Leftist. Has a terrible track record, but in theory is a good system. And yes, "that wasn't real communism" is dumb, but still. It's not an accident that China, a country which claims to be leftist in ideology, and has some elements of a leftist economic system, is outpacing our liberal one.

At the end of the day I need to sit down and read/study these alternatives to liberalism, but from the little knowledge I have, leftist thought seems promising.

what is everybody's favorite book here? we're all readers right?

>>18241390
>what is everybody's favorite book here? we're all readers right?
Fiction: Moby Dick
Nonfiction: 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed, which I am still reading but I can tell it's going to be my favorite

>>18238197
venezuela's entire economy is built on energy exports and moreover all of its infrastructure was built by developed economies. couldn't be more different from the united states

>>18237627
This is like what Bateman says at the party to impress others. Nice bait btw

>>18238364
can't have strong towns without a decentralized economy, and our financial kings won't allow that. they will let you live in the small town simulation, however (for a price)

>>18235372
any book by peter turchin

>>18237835
You're wrong and severely retarded. I think this post can really only be described as a cope

>>18241389
eventually the mass of people will turn to a leader willing and able to circumvent the law to protect them from the rapaciousness of the elite. we're already in an advanced stage of the upper classes maintaining their profit margin by digesting the middle class wholesale, what do you think happens next? hint: it's not a political solution

>>18237787
>IDK anon but Britain’s doing a reasonable job of it.
You're right, you don't know. You don't know anything at all.
I was like you until I got a metaphorical slap in the face, looks like you'll be stuck with it though. Or this is all bait, too hard to say.

What does this book argue?

>>18241461
>Liberalism:
Individualism has turned into raw ahistoric in-the-now decadence and uninhibited (even encouraged) satisfaction of immediate desires (many of which are false). That each man should live his own life how he sees fit has given way to each man having the imperative to consume as much as possible and have no moral or cultural more against it.
Technology has introduced a new age of totalitarian government upon us. Never have we been less free to express what we believe if that belief goes against social norms (which are geared towards the unmitigated destruction of social norms). In function our freedoms have been eroded.
We also no longer self-govern, nor even feel that we do.
We import labor/consumers from other nations which further destroys and dilutes our culture, but our public criticism cannot even go this far lest people start having the idea to stem the importing of labor and consumers.
The new ruling class, technological/financial/industrial in its nature brings all the bad of old aristocracies without any of the good, such as a localism and duty to give back to the community. Mobility and efficiency of wealth are paramount, as in the end this is what perpetuates the system to the fullest degree.

>>18241299
Especially if there is a sense of cooperation among the citizenry. Now it’s more of crushing everyone else to get ahead

>>18235372
Deneen's book isn't particularly prescient because it is not close to the first book to discuss this. As he himself notes, the likes of Tocqueville, Rousseau, de Sade all see it. Looking forward past that, Marx, Freud, Bernays, Adorno/Horkheimer, Marcuse, Baudrillard, Lasch all see it.

>>18241389
National socialism. The end.

>>18241569
>consumer culture bad
>technology bad
>we have less freedom of expression than ever
Has he ever read a history book before?
>freedoms have been eroded
Has he ever read a history book before?
>Cultural blending bad
>current aristocracy is worse than old aristocracies
Has he ever read a history book before?
>My culture good

Sounds like a mild racist and and cranky old man in the same breed as ones that think avocado toast is an abomination.

>>18241389
>leftist thought seems promising.
But every real life attempt at trying anything leftist always fail.

>>18241674
I know, it's hard for your pea brain to process, that's partly the point.

>>18241680
I must add of course >>18241389
>3. Marxist/Leftist. Has a terrible track record, but in theory is a good system. And yes, "that wasn't real communism" is dumb, but still. It's not an accident that China, a country which claims to be leftist in ideology, and has some elements of a leftist economic system, is outpacing our liberal one.

This is an extremely retarded take. The road to socialism is paved with good intentions. In theory is completely irrelevant if the outcome turns out to be the same over and over. Furthermore, conservatism doesn't lead to totalitarianism, whereas leftism always leads to totalitarianism. Absurd claim.

China isn't outpacing anyone but themselves, China is communist yes but have adopted parts of capitalistic thought to save themselves from a total collapse. However, China is on its last leg and their good times are over. Their future demographically is absolutely horrible and China is very fragile, where several things risk their demise.

>>18241674
Are you a 19 year old girl or something, what the fuck is this post?

>>18241705
well if my snarky deconstruction in bad faith is actually accurate I hate this book even more now

>>18241716
>Deconstruction
Wow that's a very generous word for what you wrote

>>18237372
>Yes, just as America was ruined by the Irish and Italians
It was, it pretty much led to political machines that are choking the life out of the North now.
t. one of those Irish

>>18241728
its a shitpost but it got my point across. Do you honestly think that Americans have less freedom of expression than ever before?

>>18241708
>This is an extremely retarded take. The road to socialism is paved with good intentions. In theory is completely irrelevant if the outcome turns out to be the same over and over. Furthermore, conservatism doesn't lead to totalitarianism, whereas leftism always leads to totalitarianism. Absurd claim
I do need to learn more about political philosophy, and so I must ask your pardon if I make dumb statements.

>However, China is on its last leg and their good times are over. Their future demographically is absolutely horrible and China is very fragile, where several things risk their demise.
People keep saying this and I don't get it. They are extremely powerful in economic and military terms, and are only growing stronger. Yes, they have a demographics problem but they are an authoritarian country which can do all sorts of unpleasant things to raise their birthrate if need be. And post-COVID, they seem to me to be on the cusp of overpowering the USA. We are divided, self-hating, and in retreat while they are strong and unified. When you add in their Belt and Road stuff, it seems like they are unbeatable. Where is the optimism you show coming from?

>>18241674
avocado toast is too difficult for something that should be simple. The mushed avocado is almost always too cold, and the toast is usually either made soggy by interacting with it, or is too hard to be enjoyable. There is an exceedingly small window of compatibility between the avocado texture and the toastedness of the bread, and most types of bread are unsuitable for it regardless of toasting expertise. It is also difficult to distribute the seasoning in the avocado mush in a satisfactory manner, you practically have to make proto-guacamole at which point you are being ridiculous. It is too much work for something that just tastes alright, with such a high possibility of melancholic soggy mischief.

>>18241751
the soggyness comes from the tomato, which is disgusting

>>18239248
>Liberalism gives me the freedom to be a faggot
There it is, this is why Sodomites should be killed

>>18241751
Avocado toast isn't the greatest but its a good mix up when you need something refreshing I think. You won't catch me buying it for what it usually sells for though. Like a burger is way better than a BLT but sometimes I want a BLT.

>>18241744
>My point was "wow, just wow"
Kill yourself. And yes, political speech is the most curtailed it's ever been in this country by a huge margin. Try reading a history book.

Did it fail because its expects to much of individuals or to little?

>>18241674
15 year old spotted

i'm always open to hearing some good critiques of liberalism, but coming from the right it usually just ends up being a bunch of bitching that gay people can get married and young people aren't joining the elks club. like what the fuck, get serious man.

>>18241762
Who knew that coming out of the closet would destroy Western Civilization

>>18241776
>hits blunt

>>18238331
the 28th of may

>>18241781
Jews did

>>18241776
>like what the fuck, get serious man

>>18241755
Incorrect, sliced tomatoes on toast are a much more forgiving combination, you have to really undertoast the bread for it to become soggy. The avocado mush is an entire damp attack on the toast, it clings to and permeates it, unlike the bits of water from the sliced tomatoes that settle on individual scattered spots of the toast, which even can help the overall texture by having small softened areas.

>>18241768
tell me how freedom of speech today is more restricted in America today than any other time is history

>>18241793
Try reading a history book. Do you like my deconstruction for your post?

>>18241791
>gay guys getting married caused all our problems!

>>18241804
>Try reading a history book.
ok how about this book?
>nooo, not like that!

>>18241776
>like what the fuck, get serious man.
>>18241767
>Like

It isn't the 60s anymore, no need to carry on talking like this

>>18241817
>saying "like" ruined america!
this is what passed for a rightist critique of liberalism

>>18241776
What do you mean? The best criticism of liberalism is found by just looking around you. Are people happy? Why is suicide on the rise? Why is mental illness on the rise? Why is violence on the rise? Why are people more hateful? Liberalism had a proper chance, and people are unhappy with it. Therefore, it failed and there will be a power struggle in the next few decades.

>>18241804
>I can relentlessly insult the most powerful office in America on national television and on social media all day every day for 4 years and nothing happens
>If I insult the king I get hung in the town square
>We have less freedom of speech today

>>18241815
Some Hollywood kikes getting in hot water in a completely fake spectacle put on by the government for the benefit of the public that hated them? None of them even get in any real trouble. Meanwhile any normal white person can lose their job over the mere accusation of racism in 2021. What kind of warped fucking bubble do you live in dude. Reality isn't your pbs after school special Jesus fucking Christ.

>>18241828
i would say the absolutely collapsing birth rate is the biggest failure of liberalism, but i'm not sure how you're supposed to reverse that short of the cia telling the nytimes, cnn, and the atlantic to tell liberals to have more kids. it blows my mind the percentage of the population that just follows whatever the nyt says with no thought.

>>18241793
try reading a book. like the one in the OP.

>>18241833
Okay now say the word nigger on social media with your real name attached

>>18241858
there have always been taboo words you can't say. read that recent op-ed in the nyt by mcwhorter.

>>18241833
>The only power that matters (and should be curbed by freedoms) is that of the government
Mill btfo your post ~200 years ago. Get fucked.

>>18241746
>They are extremely powerful in economic and military terms, and are only growing stronger.
Chinas economy is a paper tiger. It's overfinancialized, it's fugazi, it's fake. Militarily China is strong sure, but hardly stronger than any other major country in this day and age. China, just like any authoritarian regime, won't survive by being authoritarian. They have realized this which is why they have slowly made changes. Though unlikely today that they will fully ditch the authoritarian road they will reach a point where that decision has to be made. Their demographic situation is horrendous, no matter how many kids you force to be born tomorrow. Their best days are behind them as their population pyramid grows thicker at the top and ever so thinner at the bottom, they simply don't have the consumption numbers required.

I don't disagree that the West is currently on a suicidal path, but the West is far more resilient and robust than China, and will endure longer. People who prophesy these things seem to forget that China is completely reliant on the West and in particular the U.S. for their own success. Without the U.S., Chinas success vanishes. China is hardly strong and unified. China is a dictatorship, it's a one party state ruled by the communist party, there is no unification there, only fragility.

I wouldn't call it optimism because I'm a pessimist, but rather just a realistic view. Chinas path forward would be a minefield even with the best of circumstances, and they don't have very good circumstances.

>>18241848
Well one way to reverse it is to discourage feminism. That's what China is doing right now (banning feminist activists.) This is an anti-liberalism policy.

>>18241848
>that short of the cia telling the nytimes, cnn, and the atlantic to tell liberals to have more kids. it blows my mind the percentage of the population that just follows whatever the nyt says with no thought.
That would probably work

>>18241866
Okay now say that we need to stop immigration to save our culture on social media with your real name attached.
Now say that the reason blacks commit so much crime is because of their culture.
Now say that blacks commit more crimes than other groups.
Now say that people aren't born equal and might not deserve to be equal.
With your real name attached on social media. And attached to your job. And see if you keep your job.

>>18241848
>it blows my mind the percentage of the population that just follows whatever the nyt says with no thought.
There you go, another criticism of liberalism: people can't think for themselves, and liberalism is fundamentally based on individuals being capable to choose what's best and be rational. Otherwise, they're controlled by whoever controls mainstream media, so it devolves into a plutocracy. You can also notice this by just looking around you.

>>18241877
go back 400 years and say god doesn't exit or 600 years and say the pope is full of shit

>>18241866
The taboo is that white people can't criticize poc without being accused of racism. That's political speech. Try arguing that black neighborhoods should have more police presence because they commit more crime and cite national crime statistics in public. Do it pussy.

>>18241858
Yes, saying nigger on social media will cause me to lose my job and possibly suffer legal repercussions. But if this criticism of liberalism includes "basic values and structures of our social order", hence saying social inacceptable things like nigger should not cause real repercussions, I think you have more of a problem with humans than any particular ideology

>>18241888
The church used to hold power, now it doesn't. But don't worry, it has a replacement!

>>18241888
okay so we are comparable with an authoritarian theocracy in which we literally have zero political standing

>>18241833
It's hanged, sweaty

>>18241888
Okay so you agree that criticizing liberalism is subject to repression, thanks for agreeing. Time for you to stop posting you incoherent imbecile.

>>18241824
No, it has nothing to do with 'rightist' critique, it just makes you sound like a massive girly faggot

>>18241887
i agree liberalism has failed i just don't agree with simplistic marxist takes or the "if only more young people would join the moose lodge" shit from ppl like david brooks and ross douthat, also i don't give a shit about gay ppl

>>18241890
it's not only nigger, it's real political speech:
>systemic racism does not exist, at least in the form most people believe it does
whoops there goes my job

>>18241890
people saying racist shit on twitter or not isn't going to bring the standard of living back or stop inflation, it's irrelevant

>>18241910
I don't know who these people are and I don't read marxist threads

>>18241911
mcwhorter just wrote an essay on that topic on his substack and he still has his job at columbia as far as i know, but he's black, and i'm sure a bunch of purple haired cia analysts are preparing reports on how to deplatform substack, still worth a read

>>18241911
No subtext, is the OP book simply a criticism of liberalism or is a call for traditional forms of governance? I think a real argument could be made that all societies have this problem.

>>18241918
I'm getting jk Rowling vibes

>>18241908
He is likely just trying to push the thread towards bump limit because civil and thoughtful discussion about taboo subjects took place in it.

>>18241930
ross douthat is the nyt token "catholic" columnist, i put catholic in quotes because he's a convert from a high society wasp family with a connecticut gov in their lineage, but it's the best they could bring themselves to do i guess

>>18241931
His article had nothing to do with political speech. It is entirely about the etymology of the word nigger, along with it's subsequent becoming a taboo. It is the becoming a taboo that is restricting political speech, not the slur, because according to McWhorter any idea that undermines the supposed equality of races or the victimized status of (generally just) blacks is taboo. It is that taboo, borne from liberalism, that is now restricting political speech. The word nigger is inconsequential.

>>18241918
>Criticizing the ideology of the regime isn't important because it doesn't make big line go up!
Blow your brains out. I'm out of patience with you fucking people.

>>18241957
i was talking about his substack not that column

https://johnmcwhorter.substack.com/

>>18241963
if the line is going up what's the problem? the problem is the lines have been going down since the 70s

>looking for answers from contemporary journalists
Lefties are really retarded aren't they?

>>18241972
Are you pretending to be stupid, or are you just stupid? Take a wild guess as to what the answer could be

Hint: not all issues are related to economics

>>18241833
trump was quite literally the scapegoat for oversocialized liberal america's pent-up aggression

>>18241972
Try reading the thread and you'll find some answers

>>18238998
Is liberalism not the ideology of capital?

Liberalism failed because of midwits. If you don't understand this it's because you're a midwit.

>>18241603
this 100%, i have to do antiracism training at my job. it's pathetic bromides but the real message is loud and clear: watch what you say. it's a deliberate attempt by management to undermine the organic solidarity of our fairly diverse workforce (which is only diverse because they were trying to decades ago to undermine the solidarity of the all-italian all-irish workforce. not to mention the fact that despite management's much ballyhoo'd commitment to fight systemic racism and inequality they refuse to raise the pay, a simple gesture that would instantly produce tangible effects on their diverse worker's lives

>>18241871
They face the some "problem" that we do, which is that when standard of living goes up, number of children goes down, as there there is no incentive to have more children for the indiviual family.

>>18241965
In that case I'd attribute his non-cancellation with his discipline (linguistics rather than sociology), his skin color, his relative lack of exposure, and his other views (decidedly otherwise on board with the status quo that destroys convention and culture - especially that of blacks). The black-white race relations in the United States is a symptom rather than a cause of liberalism. Once all conventions thereof are dustbinned, something else will be sought and destroyed, probably even the black culture if that is even conceivable.

>>18242039
That's totally wrong and not true, just look at the baby-boom in the 40s and 50s. A strong standard of living doesn't automatically mean low birth rates, there are other factors at play here, like cultural and spiritual DESTRUCTION, and a purposely fucked up incentive system.

>>18242063
It's standard of living and women gaining rights. It's also not a switch that flips. It takes a couple of generations of kick in. The demographics are clear though. World will peak at maybe 9 billion and then start to decline. This will play havoc on financial systems especially, because they are predicated on infinite growth of consumers and laborers.

>>18242076
Material wealth doesn't magically destroy people's capacity to have children, sexual liberation and bad incentive structure do. your thesis doesn't make any fucking sense. We have example of societies with material wealth and strong birthrates and poor societies with weak birthrates. It's not as simple as you want it to be.
>Muh 9 billion
What's that have to do with anything? Again this weird simplification, conditions for populations on one part of the globe don't necessarily have anything in common with another. What does a billion Chinese have to do with 30 million Canadians?

>>18242076
We’re coming to an end much sooner than that

>>18242007
I'd much rather a bunch of retards have the ability to tweet death threats to the president than not be able to do so at all. Seems like a decent upgrade.

Shit thread.

>>18242107
As you say, it is about incentives. As standard of living increases, a child becomes an expense rather than another pair of hands to help with the work. When women gained autonomy, many of them decided that they did not want the lives of their mothers and grandmothers raiding 5+ children. I believe the correlation here is quite strong across the world. People want children, but few people want the required 2.1 it takes to keep a population at replacement level, much less actually grow.

>>18242178
got anything to actually contribute

>>18236056
>liberalism in its actual meaning. "Conservative" and "Liberal" are no opposites, as conservatism is a disposition whereas liberalism is an ideology. The opposite of conservative is progressive. Most western "conservatives" are also liberals.
>When talks about the failure of liberalism, he is talking about the mainstream establishment ideology of both left and right.
interesting
there are people here who actually read

>>18241776
That's not what this book is about, and I don't think you know what the word "Liberalism" actually means.

>>18242192
In some cases many feel as though there is no good reasoning behind having many kids, if any at all, so they do not have any. Or, their city/town grows increasingly unsafe/unpleasant whilst also growing more expensive.
The modern propaganda machines could easily be turned to pump out articles about how kids are needed, and it would help alleviate the problem. Financial incentives could be provided for married couples who want kids, enabling them to buy a first home etc etc. A positive culture could be fostered through media and government policy.
But nevermind, it's all wishful thinking.

>>18242192
>When women gained autonomy, many of them decided that they did not want the lives of their mothers and grandmothers raiding 5+ children.
They didn't autonomously decide that though. Many of them had it inculcated into them through authorities of the institutions they attended and through the media they consumed.