/lit/ - Literature

>>18241057
Read Goethe.

>>18241057
I just wrote a couple pages. Want an excerpt?

>>18241114
sure

>>18241196
It's a conversation between a father and son. The father has sensed that his son has gone off the rails and is trying to bring him back to reality, so to speak.
"You asked me before why I think my experience is unique. It's very simple: no one agrees with me."
"You love to debate, and to criticize widely-accepted beliefs."
"I don't know anyone who agrees with me about almost anything."
"Because you seek out people who you hope will challenge your beliefs."
"No one agrees with me."
"So what?"
"So that's what makes me think I'm unique. That's what makes me think my experience is more or less unprecedented. Even basic, fundamental values--the constitution, for Christ's sake--even with regard to that, the rule of law, for example, I find no intelligent allies."
"Your intellect compels you to only seek out opponents; people who can challenge your suppositions. No surprise that you'll end up feeling alone."
"These are tendentious times, Dad. This is a time to seek out allies, not opponents. The existence of my opponents is apparent enough. Why would I intentionally seek out only opponents?"
"You told me yourself: good dialogue is what gets you out of bed."
"Yeah, dialogue. Stimulation, sure. But there are only so many days in a row when half the world can call me evil, and the other half dismisses everything I say. They proceed as if I'm wrong, but never explain why. Would would make better company in your opinion: those who, almost out of habit, find you evil, or those who ignore you?"
"That's not an excuse to..." [Name] faltered momentarily. "If what you're saying is important, of course some people will call you evil."
"That's not my main concern. It's almost a badge of honour to be called evil by people I despise and find repugnant. What concerns me are the people ignoring me; people who, when confronted with a challenge to their beliefs, to a genuine criticism...they just ignore it. They ignore the criticism, refuse any dialogue, and yet they continue going about reorganizing the world. Those are the people that drove me down the second path; these self-appointed organizers, strutting along the catwalk with their decrees and their prescriptions, completely shutting out any feedback from the audience. I would tolerate decrees and prescriptions, even from unelected oligarchs, so long as they had some measure of engagement with the criticism; so long as they had HANDLED and addressed the shortcomings of their ideas. But there's nothing of the sort. It's all ignored without a hint of dialogue, and in place of dialogue they send out their army of ignorant fools to call me evil."
1/2

>>18241057
Not today. I'm trying to save my semester.

[Name] sensed that his son was overstating what role he himself had had in any sort of dialogue, as if he [son] had played some sort of role in the social and philosophical dialogues of the time. The 2020s had seen impassioned, rigorous, and very public disputes about the state of morality, duty, and community in the global society. It seemed delusional that [son], a 22 -year-old student of unknown reputation and with no public presence to speak of, could believe that he had actually been singled out by the "organizers" of the world, and was relevant enough to be called "evil."
“And so what do you do, Dad, when you’re one of the last people defending the great enlightenment ideals, filtered and refined as they have been by over two centuries of stark biological and social realities? And when basic principles of liberty are being abandoned because a handful of unelected oligarchs have calculated that their businesses, their platforms, their technological infrastructure is incongruous with modern democratic society? And when they are all ignoring you and dismissing you as evil because you dared to defend basic principles which allowed them, and our society itself, to flourish in the first place? What do you do when you have a very important thing to say, but everyone is ignoring you?”
“You change your manner of expression and identify the aspect of your message that will better attract their interest; make your idea more compelling to them.”
“No. You do something that can’t be ignored. Then you get your dialogue.”
2/2

>>18241102
Why

>>18241331
>>18241337
Extremely gay.

>>18241346
He will fix everything inspire you to write.

>>18241334
nice

>>18241334
good luck anon

>>18241337
Ah, a fellow Kaczynski appreciator

>>18241331
>>18241337
Extremely gay.

>>18241354
English motherfucka

>>18241057
I browsed 4chan, masturbated and wrote.

>>18241395
Did you masturbate as you wrote? Also what did you write and masturbate to?

>>18241337
Does anyone actually use the word tendentious? I could understand using it in non-dialogue, but...
Other than that, it's okay I guess

>>18241331
pretty cool. i should try writing some dialogue

>>18241418
No. I masturbated to trannies. Wrote an essay on global trade in the 16th century.

>>18241465
sounds gay

>>18241057
I don’t want to be a writer. I just enjoy reading.

Well clearly you have nothing to write about

>>18241380
I'm conceiving the son as some kind of leftist just not our current type of radical leftist...I guess a centre-leftist which, ironically, resorts to violence in the face of more radical elements actually controlling the public dialogue (in his estimation).
>>18241425
That word stood out, out of place. Noted. Thank-you.
>>18241386
Can you share a sample of your own non-gay writing please? I'd like to improve.

>did some writing in the local park
>finished it off by reading for two hours
>felt a bit sad about there being so many couples and me being forever alone
>birbs
Good day. If the weather allows it, I will do the same again tomorrow, just way longer.

Wrong

>>18241498
Have him fight his father then

>>18241534
He doesn't directly. He pulls a very public act of violence. A political act. This, obviously, strikes at the father indirectly because he's trying to straighten out his son's radical and delusional view on how to effect change in society.

STOP MASTURBATING
easypeasymethod.org

>>18241568
Fuck off retard

>>18241331
>Yeah, dialogue. Stimulation, sure.
change this to
>Yes, dialogue. Stimulation, sure enough.
your writing of dialogue is very formal (like older novels are) but words like "yeah" are far too casual to fit. totally incongruous and sounds like you're jumping from a conversation in the 19th century to one that took place yesterday

>>18241661
Good observation. Thank-you.

>>18241057

>>18241568
I tried this but then got sad about my masturbation, and when I'm sad I like to get a quick jolt of dopamine, so yeah. Maybe when I'm not depressed anymore I'll try this

“Matthew?”
“Is it my turn?”
“If you want,” said the psychologist, “but no one is forcing you.”
“I guess I have a bit of everything. I got kicked out too, but for a different reason. I… I didn’t share the same beliefs as my parents. They kept trying to force it… and eventually I left. I lived with a friend for a while until that stopped working, and I’ve lived on the street since. It wasn’t awful. I was able to survive on my own since I had help, but… that was taken away too. It’s a long story…” said Matthew.
“I see…”
“I never knew you… you were also… homeless,” said Catherine.
“Yeah, for about a year or two. I didn’t have it as rough as some other people.”
“What was the specific reason for being kicked out, if I may ask?”
“Well… my family is religious. I am not—or well, I was—and they kept trying to… convert me back to their religion. We… had an argument that was worse than our usual ones, and it just went from there, y’know?”
“And, allow me to keep asking questions… what made you stop believing in your old religion? Did anything specific happen?”
“My brother was killed.”
“I’m sorry to hear that. Was that the only reason?”
“Well… I wasn’t really sure about the whole religion thing growing up. My parents were especially into it, and my brother was too. I just wanted a sign—anyone would—to prove that this god that my family talked about was real. I kept begging and begging for an answer, and then, my brother and I were in a car accident and he died on the scene. I just… I just couldn’t believe in a god that would take my older brother from me. It seemed to go against everything my family said. It didn’t make sense. He was so… religious. If my brother’s god was real, why would he kill someone so devoted to him like my brother?”
“That sounds awful. That’s a truly terrible thing to go through, I know. Watching a loved one die would be difficult for anyone. It’s not something you had control over, if that helps.”
“It doesn’t.”
“I apologize.”
“Don’t. You were being nice…. there is one thing though, that I miss.”
“Yes?”
“Well, besides my family obviously.”
The psychologist stared at Matthew and waited. Teary eyed, Matthew spoke.
“Although I can’t believe in god, I do miss him. I wish I could believe, but I can’t. I remember when I was a kid, and I just assumed god was as true as gravity. It wasn’t until I was older that I realized other people had different gods, or for some, they had no god. I’d give anything to go back to that time—when I was innocent—when I still believed—when I knew nothing but god. I miss my faith and… I miss god.”

>>18241387
He will fix everything and inspire you to write.

>>18243112
A couple observations:
>the frequent ellipses are annoying and stifle the dialogue in a bad way. They should be used much more sparingly.
>I would try to handle the topic of religion in a less cliched way. It's a rich, complex topic, one that many people of various ages struggle with. With that in mind, perhaps a more novel angle to how the issue affected the protag and his family is in order. I know this is just an excerpt, but it doesn't offer the reader much by way of insight/observation about the religious situation in the family or the protag's actual feelings
>I like how the scene ends with the protag's admission that he misses God as a concept, almost as a person; kind of conflating his lost brother with his lost faith, and vice versa. This is a really good, fairly subtle idea being conveyed.
>the "troubled kid talking to a psychologist" trope has been done to death, though it's a good platform for a person to lay out what they're feeling. I'd maybe take a different approach because they always seems to come out the same: the confident, cynical young kid "tells it like it is" to the sympathetic professional.

>>18241057
Seriously though, how do you stop doing this? I have been addicted to the internet for so long, and while I have wanted to change for like 5 years I never actually do anything and just do the same thing I did yesterday.

>>18245095
idk i go through spurts of productivity, but spurts ain't gonna cut against ppl that work single-mindedly and maniacally towards their goals

>>18245108
I have spurts of productivity, but only in the hours before a deadline. Any other time when I go to do something I think will be productive I always manage to talk myself out of it and delay.
I fucking hate being weak minded and lazy.
Positive reinforcement doesn't work for me, so someone please call me a loser. For reference I am a shut-in with no friends, and I look like the "onions" wojak since I am too lazy to shave.

>>18244098
>the "troubled kid talking to a psychologist" trope
he's actually a homeless man living in the psych ward with three other roommates that he has debates with but if it comes off as a kid then I probably did it wrong
>the frequent ellipses are annoying and stifle the dialogue in a bad way. They should be used much more sparingly.
So I've been told before: what do you recommend to show pauses? Breaking up the monologue with prose?
> but it doesn't offer the reader much by way of insight/observation about the religious situation in the family or the protag's actual feelings
Thank you. I think I address it better as it goes further but this was just an excerpt of one conversation. The full thing is sitting around 70k words.
>I like how the scene ends with the protag's admission that he misses God as a concept, almost as a person; kind of conflating his lost brother with his lost faith, and vice versa. This is a really good, fairly subtle idea being conveyed.
Thank you for the advice. I do appreciate people willing to read amateur writing.

>>18241102
Goethe should have spent more time masturbating and less time simping over Charlotte

Bump

>>18241057
Bukowski would be so proud

>>18242877
Idiot, read it again. Porn will make you more sad. You should feel happy and liberated that you don't have to watch it anymore.

>>18241057
I submitted a flash piece and went to a new sublime island I’ve never been to. Didn’t even cum today.

>>18245308
Not literal kid, but like a twenty or twenty-two year old.
>he's a homeless man living in the psych ward
Why is he in a psych ward? He comes off as very lucid. Or is it a shelter/hospital that, by policy, offers psychological treatment to residents?
>how to show pauses.
Sometimes what he says can indicate a pause more effectively. Also, some prose in between (or at the beginning) doesn't hurt. I notice in older novels, the author often begins the paragraph by indicating how the character speaks generally:
>He spoke quietly, unevenly, as if he was nervous. His words came out in quick bursts followed by brief pauses.
...this might seem too formal and less effective, I admit. Perhaps just do a sweep of the excerpt again and ask if each indicated pause actually adds anything. "Well...my family is religious." could just as well have a comma. "Well...I wasn't really sure..." could just as well be a comma too.

>>18243112
I hate dialogue. It's just so ugly. If I wanted to be subjected to a conversation I'd go out and have one. I don't want to do that any more than I want to be bombarded by the literary equivalent of small talk. It's just so inconsequential and it never even realizes it.

>>18241057
Anon, jerk off in the morning and get it off your mind.

>>18245095
>>18245214
Unironically read atomic habits

>>18241331
dogshit

>>18241337
dogshit. occasionally someone here posts acceptable writing but this is hilarious. the dialogue is very bad and everything else is just boring

>>18241331
Sorry, haven't read it. Better luck next time.

>>18241337
If you want to say something about politics in fiction, please please please please don't just write it out. It's the most artless and infuriating thing for a reader to see, completely separate from whether or not they agree with your politics. If fiction is to be a vehicle for the author's political beliefs, the author has a solemn fucking mandate not to beat his reader over the head with it like you do here. Allegory and apophasy are your friends here. Fiction that reads this bare and political gives the impression of a gussied up Facebook post.

>>18246832
The character is meant to be naive, making serious judgements but relying on generalizations and emotion. The father is meant to be sort of aghast that his son could draw such firm conclusions with such a superficial understanding of how society, business, politics, technology, etc. works. Obviously that didn't come across. Will work on it. Appreciate the feedback and will try to convey it more subtly and less heavy-handedly.

>>18246792
>>18246802
>>18246819
Thanks for the feedback, assholes.

>>18241331
>>18241337
Interesting theme, needs better dialog. Work on the writing itself and, like another anon said, don't put the politics in the most obvious way. I think you're capable of exploring the mind of a dissident in 21st century - it just needs more work. Good luck anon

>>18241337
>>>>18241331

Is the dad a contrarian because he wants to debate and have the intellectual high ground or because he's a virtuous man living in a fallen society? The first 1/4 is the son almost teasing him about being contrarian for the sake of itself then going on about "organizers" or some other that is trying to silence the father and son? I might need context, but I can't gather the general direction of where this dialogue is going. It's written with good sentence variation and flows, but I do not follow what the conversation is supposed to lead to. You need to narrow the focus of the conversation, either the dad needs intellectual stimulation by arguing, or one of them is being targeted by someone for their ideas. Keep working anon

>>18241514
Cheep cheep chirp chir chir chirrrrp cheep

>>18247362
Thank-you.
>>18247439
The dad is someone appreciative of the fallen aspects of society, and would hide such beliefs from his son, couching them in more optimistic or at least edifying explanations for the broad trends in any given society. This is the basis for the debate about "uniqueness" and unprecedentedness. The father's first goal, though, in this instance, is to point out to his son that the reason he seems to have no intellectual/ideological allies is because he seeks out opponents habitually. The dad is trying to pull the son back from what the dad thinks is a distorted perspective, not reflective of reality. He thinks the son is deeply deluded about the state of the world, and it has led him down a dangerous, naive, and possibly fatal path. This couldn't all be gathered from that excerpt, but that's the idea I'm trying to build from.
The son, yes, is throwing out some assertions about the how the world works--specific stuff that, no matter how the reader personally feels about it, is meant to show that the son has missed the forest for the trees.

My biggest hurdle to writing is apprehension over feeling like my writing will never be good or worth it. I like to write but I’m immensely insecure.

>>18241057
>writing
Hahaha.

You should read instead of writing stupid wannabe-author garbage that nobody wants to read.

>>18247588
Put it out there for criticism, especially here where the readers don't have any social obligation to lie to you. If they think it's bad, they'll tell you it's bad. I just hope they explain why they think so, as many in this thread have done.

>>18247550
Oh, I see. Writing on the difference of perspectives due to a generational gap can be quite interesting. After re-reading it, I see what you were trying to portray. But rather than getting this point across through one conversation, it is probably a theme that you should lay out gradually throughout the story. Unless this is towards the end of the story, I feel like there is not much more to explore through the son and father's ideological differences, and everything after this is just showing the consequences of the son's naivete. As a reader, I prefer to see the moral themes fully revealed/ coincide with the climax of the plot. If you uncover the entirety of the theme before the plot is resolved, the characters actions afterwards leave little impact. But that all depends at where in your story this excerpt is placed. Sorry if this seems inaccurate, I don't know much about the scope of the story. I like the son and think he is relatable. Good luck anon, I hope you finish this story.

>>18247862
thanks

>>18241331
>>18241337
Extremely gay.

Just wrote two pages for my novel which included a threesome sex chene so hot I barely abstained from masturbating. Work well done, I'm gonna brew myself a cup of green tea.

>>18247987
Care to elaborate?

>>18241057
Reads about right.