/lit/ - Literature

>>18217190
meant to use another Wittgenstein pic, sorry Ludwig...

>>18217190
Hey there, anon. I use my wiki every day. I'm a huge of fan. What do you hope to accomplish with yours?

>>18217281
Just better comprehension and cohesion of what I read, hopefully aiding writing. I'm less optimistic than those people who posit Obsidian as a "second brain," but I still find the concept massively useful. Definitely something I had been needing for a while.

>>18217291
I'm pessimistic that such a tool could think for us in many respects. Perhaps one day ML would aid in such a thing, but I have my doubts it would be in my lifetime. I'd argue it is an extension of my mind, and it definitely adds and improves memory. I like that it grants me to ability to find a context again. Still, "second brain" is likely hyperbole.

This one is mine: https://philosopher.life/.. I don't know if it would be useful as an example, but it might be worth thinkin' about.

What do you like to read and write about, anon?

Maybe not for people in /lit/ but I'm a fan of emacs with org-mode + org-roam

>>18217369
Oh, yeah, I've seen this one. Even if machine learning goes that far, I don't think I'm too interested in that. I wouldn't even say it's an extension of my mind, just something I use to maintain myself.

I read about Christianity and some other assortments when I can. What about you?
>>18217515
I'm not /g/, but I applaud.

>>18217699
I hate to say it, but I've largely stopped reading books. I read a lot on the internet, web and otherwise.

If you ever need anything for your reading, HMU. I have surprising access to Christian literature in particular.

Are there any good windows apps like obsidian?

I’m just trying to organize all the thoughts I have for the sport I do (MMA) and development in it - if anybody does anything like that and has any ideas would love to hear. Right now I just have a bunch of evert notes folder with different sections based on my needs (grappling, striking, film study, etc) but would love to hear anyone else’s thoughts since even this method is.. cluttered

>>18217830
Sure, hit me up with what you have. How come you stopped reading, by the way? I've fallen into some decline too.

>>18217882
Obsidian has a Windows download. MMA is interesting, always beguiled by the kind of person who ends up doing it.

Am I missing something? This all just seems like a way to make note taking more complex than it needs to be.

>>18218123
Cohesion. Most notes you'll take are left for dead if they aren't placed properly.

>>18217923
I think depression is part of it, but I also haven't really been moved by many books in a long time. Hyperreading > Deepreading for my work for a while now. Perhaps part of it is a lack of attention span too. I usually dig for particular chapters instead these days. My wife reads a lot of books (a scary amount), and I try to do the same on the web. It makes for good walks and conversations with the family.

As to literature, beyond pirating for you, I'm connected to a well-known divinity school. Anything they can access, I can try to access for you as well.

>>18218606
Anything on this? https://books.google.com/books/about/Hell_and_Its_Torments.html?id=4_HOAAAACAAJ&source=kp_book_description What did you usually read before you slowed down?

>>18218123
It's not a note taking method. It's a method of thinking. People need to read the book to better understand it. Everyone seems to think it's just notes.

Hey there,

I learned about the ZK method a few days ago only, and still trying to get the gist of it.

So basically, it is a note-taking method that allows you to reformulate ideas you read / subject you learn in some sort of small piece of ideas / notes.
And then, when they are properly organised, you start to see links between notes.

Am I right?


One thing I don't get, wether you use software (The Archive, Zetllr, Obsidian,...) or not:

How do you create links between notes? Do they arise "logically" and are they created by the software on auto mode?
Should you rethink about your notes in order to make connections yourself?

A few more question for the experienced Anon out there:
If I use a software and change computer, won't all my notes / thoughts be lost?

Why simply not use Evernote or Onenote, that you simply enrich with documents and then when looking for a concept, doing a simple keyword research?

Thanks to the Anons sharing their experience

>>18220109
Oh, and also:

Since ZK becomes a "method of thinking", won't it oppose / conflict with possible existing method one uses? (GTD, socrastic approach of complex problems,...)

Sorry if my questions are stupid, just trying to understand

>>18220114
What's GTD?

>>18217190
oh shit, OP, Cumgenius doesn't look too good

>>18220132
Get Things Done, an organisational / productivity method introduced by David Allen in the eponymous book 'Get Things Done'

Is this a knawledge documentation general

>>18220109
Basically. I don't know about the others, but in Obsidian, you can tie things together by directly linking them Wikipedia style—double brackets around the note name, "|alias" next to it for an alias (of whatever name you choose. The software will also pick up unlinked mentions of a note's name which you can find. The graph view lets you see the overall connexion between things. I don't think you should "rethink" them exactly, but try to find intersections on your own at first. After a while the pattern will develop.

For the experienced question, can't you just import your files?

The Obsidian benefit is mostly the graph and it's the most interconnected and versatile out of all the notes apps. Don't lean too hard on it.

>>18220114
No clue w/r/t these. I don't think so, though. It's basically just keeping notes.

>>18220140
I meant to do a pic of him with his friends.

>>18220261
Yes!

>>18220109
>Why simply not use evernote or onenote [...]
As for myself, one of the reasons is open-source alternatives to these softwares. I don't like the fact that many of evernote's features are locked behind a paywall (never bothered to check if I can pirate it, tho.). As for onenote, being from Microsoft, I imagine it to be terribly slow and bloated.
I've been using Obsidian for these last days and I'm pretty happy with it, although it is closed source. I've used zimwiki too, but the tabs in it made me meh and search for an alternative.

>How do you create links between notes

In obsidian is in markdown, if you write [[note x name]] in note y, it will create a link between the two.

>If I use a software and change computer, won't all my notes/thoughts be lost.

I personally store mine in MEGA, they're pretty lightweight, being composed mostly of folders and plaintext files.

>>18220282

About importing files, there is a way, but AFAIK there's no "IMPORT FILES" button in Obsidian.


We could create a pastebin to talk about the softwares we use (I personally was only aware of Obsidian, ZimWiki and another one) and the methods we use, as well as what "we" mean with personal knowledge management. Although it is a pretty clear term already, I feel like it could be clearer.

>>18217291
>>18217369
I, too, wouldn't call it a second brain. It's clearly a marketing hyperbole. If we manually feed info to this "second brain", wouldn't it cease being a brain and being, y'know, a personal knowledge base?

I find the concept of personally inserting and formating info in these software very time consuming and all, and have been using obsidian only as an aid to personal studies because it's more efficient than writing in paper.

Another question for frens:
We know that we remember/learn more (with) what we write in paper than what we type. That being said, could one of these methods (ZK, GTD, etc.) be used in an analogical way? As in a paper knowledge database (not just notebooks filled with notes, ofc.)

what are the best examples of the personal wiki type of thing, which one should i use?

obsidian looks a little too scattered and incoherent for me, but i have to say that the wiki idea has become much more appealing to me as i've thought about it since the last thread

>>18220613
You can have a ZK in paper form
The founder of the method did
But as you find already time consuming the fact of writting notes for softwares, might be worse for the paper version of ZK

Still worth a try if it works better for you tho

>>18218941
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FzUJl-wB1s - subs aren't pretty, but they work.

Not sure if it's feasible for you, but Amazon has it for $2. https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Its-Torments-Robert-Bellarmine/dp/0895554097

I tend to read what is recommended to me by those I trust. My trust in others and their recommendations have varied considerably over time. Philosophy, computing, and science fiction are some broad areas I've tended to prefer.

>>18220613
`/salute`. Trying to specify what counts as an inference (something we might consider brain-like behavior) is perhaps harder than it looks. I'll agree it's not a mind (barring some Hegelian possibilities that I'm not interested in defending). I also think PKM is not a sufficient description of my own work (https://philosopher.life) either though. But, mine isn't just for me.

I aim to limit how much I rely upon formatting as well, and I hope to maintain escape hatches from my tools (though after 5 years of writing every day, I'm less convinced I'll move away from TW). I want it to be useful from the command line and any text editor, and not just the hypertext application itself. Obsidian locks you into a perspective, which can be exactly what you need in a given situation. It depends. You can also hybridize systems, use Obsidian + TW + other tooling, as long as you've got your synchronization down right (that might not be worth the work for most).

I seek salience in the zoo of 15k notes (~40MB of plaintext). Does it help me tell and retell the stories that matter to those I love?

As to your question, I can write the file from scratch on paper. I have before in a pinch. Even before I started using these tools, I'd written by hand plenty too. Nothing beats the speed of typing and computerized organization and searching. My Hypertext/wiki is ridiculously large, and it's not feasible to deal with that much data by hand. If the point isn't to store your memory external to your brain but to maximize brain retention, I suggest spaced repetition and continued clarification of your work (I still recommend typing it). If I had to write by hand (e.g. from prison), I'd do so on the assumption of OCR and importing into digitized body of writing.

My offspring have used their TWs for years for a wide variety of projects, including proof of their schoolwork. It's part of what we read and talk about together in [[Family Time]]. It's a social media tool that we own together. It has a lot of functions. We can call this learning and a type of knowledge too, but it's not what is normally meant.

...

>>18220651
I use Tiddlywiki. Imho, it's wiser not to pigeon-hole yourself into zettel or any particular method. Read and write in hypertext generally. Get it out onto the page(s). You probably can't or don't know all the arbitrary structures you'll need. Mold the tool and discover the methods you need for each problem. Can you re-use your data and transform it into the next step with low friction? I can't say I'm good enough at it.

You may find any sufficiently powerful tool in this domain is going to be scattered and incoherent. The learning curve for the complete infrastructure you may prefer in the end might be quite steep. I consider myself only an intermediate user, despite heavy use.

>>18217190
Boomp.
This general is very helpful and many anons would benefit from it. Let's recruit them.

>>18217190
wiki.js is top tier imo

>>18217923
Thanks anon - I just downloaded it for Windows. Whew, this is overwhelming ha. I actually posted asking about how to organize my brain a couple of month's ago and the thread died so I'm feeling quite fortunate to be able to stumble upon this.
Also, combat sports in general tend to have all sorts of people - mainly kooks and meatheads, but the 'martial artists' subgenre of people who engage in combat sports tend to be very reflective on the world (ex. Georges St. Pierre, Ryan Hall).

Anyway, I'm going to start by transferring my evernotes folder/icloud notes into here and hopefully I end up with a nice, fancy graph to post here.

I just use OneNote. Should I switch to Obsidian or Tiddlywiki or what

>>18221842
Also realized I didn't really answer the question to what draws one to combat sports - for my personally it's learning the ability to compete in high pressure situation where the risks are fairly high (people die!). Kind of like putting all the chips on the table but instead of putting it on red or black you're putting it on the belief in your skillset.

>>18220585
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wiki_software
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_wiki_software
There are some here but the discussion is mostly centralized around Obsidian, Roam, Tiddlywiki, Zim, and some few others. I personally am not a tight adherent to ZK but for the next general I'd like some resources surrounding that and other notetaking ideals.

>>18220613
Zettelkasten has been a paper thing since the beginning (cf. >>18220668). You're welcome to try it but it requires stricter adherence to the idea.

>>18220651
Obsidian is actually pretty compact as far as I've been using it, but >>18220835 has some good ideas too.

>>18220832
Thank you very much! Interested in your tie to a divinity school. Your interests seem like those of someone who's somehow connected in that manner.

Your own work is very impressive, useful contribution to this thread. I think even the closest approximation of a "brain" we could make would still be very reductive and the term, at best, would be applied for marketing.

OCR has gotten pretty good these days. If you know a program better than this (https://ocr.space/)), you should drop it so we can include it at the top of the next general.

Seeing by your seriousness in life, it must be good to keep everything orderly. Even when I was more unserious I would have volumes of notes. It also works for me as a replacement for social media (which I was basically addicted to before I destroyed all my accounts, lol).

>>18220835
I just accept that w/r/t these programs, my usage of them is more akin to a tourist than anything. I don't use anything seriously so as to keep fluidity.

>>18221455
>>18221842
I've been looking for something like this for a while so I'm glad to be introducing it.

>>18221560
I think its appeal is for people involved in things beyond my scope, but it seems very strong.

>>18221842
The graph may be entirely made of orphans if you don't procure some backlinks through your editing. You can also convert some things to markdown through the software.

>>18221862
Interesting. I think living that definitely can serve you well, in spite of the obvious complications.

>>18221853
Cf. >>18220585. Already answered.

>>18220282
Thank you very much for your anwser mate

I then might give Obsidian a try soon to see how it turns out

Have sex.

>>18223103
No hay problema.

>>18217190
This and the previous thread are absolutely mindblowing things for me. It's functional, understandable, but somehow so detestable to me because I know this is just one cypher through which we will volunteer all of our humanity into the AI machine. I'm fascinated. I'm in.

>>18224308
I just use it as a means to an end. I turn my wifi off while reading and use none of the syncs, and if Obsidian turns on me, I'll move it all away.

>>18224424
That's only a superficial solution. My first concern is that this is a form of cyborg...you are storing a part of yourself (a significant part) in a digital format. Yes, it may make things easier for your human half, but you're transitioning your identity into the cloud, so to speak.

>>18224476
Then aren't we already cyborgs just by holding smart devices which can access the internet and its never ending knowledge?

>>18224621
If we use that internet access to communicate, formulate, and synthesize our ideas, then yes.

>>18224683
That's the way these things are.

>>18224999
I know. And I am withdrawing into my world of paper and pens, and where no one understands what I'm trying to say.

I'm thinking this link might be useful to put on a pastebin: https://zettelkasten.de/introduction/

>>18225059
>>18224476
Is being a cyborg confined to digital formats? If, for instance, we used the zettelkasten or just constructed a personal knowledge database in pen and paper, would we still be cyborgs? Does it require a screen?

>>18225192
Unironically Socrates' opinion on writing.
From a certain point of view, we've been cyborgs from day one. However, the degree of cyborg-ness can still be managed.

>>18225192
>zettelkasten
Based Gessner.

>>18225222
Man, I'm nailing it with the digits today.

So is Obsidian the best software to use for this?

>>18225282
It is definetely the coolest looking. It is pretty easy to use and customize. However I'll not say anything about how efficient it is, because obviously it depends more on the user than on the software, and also because this thread revealed to me how little I knew about notetaking.

>>18225282
Zoom in in one of the parts.

>>18225282
I unironically think Obsidian might lead you the wrong way with it. It's not just simple note-taking. It's more of a permanent note you make after you've done your actual note taking. A sort of note that you'll keep forever and summarize everything that it needs to on itself including context and information. It's a self standing note that only through external attention may you realize the notes connect in large important ways. If you just try to connect every piece of information, you'd be wasting your time. It'd be like comparing fruits and how different a fruit can be from each other. To the layman, this isn't important. It's not important to anyone not heavily researching fruits either. However if you are researching fruits and their origins and growth, then it would be useful. This is why zettelkasten is self-oriented in that it can't possibly contain everything and shouldn't, but it's also tailored to the person who uses it, so it doesn't need to.

>>18217190
Here's a link to a process I've been trying to figure out. It uses a variation of Zotero that's for legal scholarship and outputs that resource collector into notes that are read by obsidian.
>>18217369
Pretty neat, the aesthetic is kinda overwhelming for me, sorry.
>>18217882
I ended on obsidian because it's way faster than onenote or roam. But it looks like another anon already told you to download obsidian on windows. I think you should start reading other fundamental war/fighting books (recently I read book of the five rings and also the art of war) and because they are all so spread out in isolation of the things you learn, you can make every point of the book a note and then write your thoughts down about that particular one and how it relates to your general MMA principles from other notes.
>>18218123
As the other person said, it's a way of thinking. Personally, as ive been looking through all my own notes from the past few years (which are everywhere on paper and in different software on different machines (part of what's nice is it centralizes the point of entry) is that all my notes were heavily based on the context of where I was at the time and were not future proofed. All my diary entries and school notes and notes on books were quickly made, poorly written, and provide no context at all for what was going on. So when I look at them now, I have no idea what's going on. And it's insane to have to have waited three years to realize this, but it's a lesson well learned. I opened one note and it was 5 block quotes from something and I had no idea what was going on, my poetry is about he and her and I don't know who I was talking about, my notes for class are in 5 word chunks and I don't even remember what subjects they were about. Trying to future proof my notes is one of the things I've been thinking about quite a bit recently. That and the idea that notes are thinking. This train of thought that I'm typing out right now is new and original and I would not have thought about any of it like this, in this way, without having some reason to type it all out. I think the method really points out some deep flaws in the way most people just kinda jot down notes. So when they say it's more than just notes, I think it's that we have been trained in the internet age to just take the absolute worst notes possible. Out attention span just isn't long enough and no one teaches us this shit. No one taught me how to study or how to learn, at least not explicitly. I've had to read like 6 books on the subject and it's relevant fields just to have some sort of grasp on the whole process. Which has actually been pretty fascinating, seeing the evolution and historical changes over time to how to learn, and yet the things proven in studies were the same things done 800 years ago, yet the protestant reformation butchered and bastardized it all and now it takes weirdos writing pop sci to teach us things that the occult

>>18219299
I think you have to elaborate a bit from your own personal experiences to convince people. Just telling them to read the book doesn't really make a very good argument for bringing in more people who have different insight than you do. I agree with you, but also it's not really productive to do the classic /lit/ 'lmao read the book faggot'. Gotta give em' something first and hook them in.
>>18220109
Well, first I think you should just walk through the process. Do you have a book you are currently reading? Hopefully nonfiction? Even a textbook. Look at all the chapter titles in the book. Wow, each of those are major sections and each would probably have a few neat thoughts in them on their own. But you may say, wait, I'm just making a top down hierarchy at that point, why would I bother with this when I can just make an outline in word? And that's true, but from personal experience, one of the things that absolutely ruined law school for me was that I would constantly see these links between different subjects. Like, say, both torts and contract classes would both talk about damages and there would be types of damages that overlapped for various reasons, but then some of those damages were where you only got one for various reasons. All thoughts thoughts would pop into my head, but because of the way my notes, and the test, and the professor's lecture were all taught, I had no method of meaningfully cross contaminating that concept between my two outlines for the two classes. And even if I had basically started a new document to write about damages for a while, I couldn't quickly link them back to where the main content was, nor was it going to strictly be on the test. It would only be for my own personal context that I would need to do that analysis in a note. A way to play around with the information and give it real, concrete meaning within the broader scope of the law. But I didn't so I don't remember them all. They were all little orphans that, now that I'm a lawyer, I have to go look this shit up every time when I'm trying to figure out damages as I write the pleadings for a case. That's just one example. I don't even remember what your original question was at this point.
>>18220250
GTD is basically the 'make a todo list inbox and fucking do everything in it' method, right?
>>18220613
The problem with your rec of the studies on writing vs typing is the issue of how much brain power and thinking is put into rewording and grappling with the actual content. This is another one of those 'what translation do i read' threads, where the talking about what thing to get into takes away from time spent actually doing the thing. In this case, it would be grappling and thinking about things through typing them out into notes from your own words. Just like these tldr posts im posting right now. I'm trying to reframe information I already know into a different format to explain and elaborate the concepts to you in a contextual way. Just write.

>>18221853
One note is top down bloated garbage when I used it a few years ago. Technology has surpassed it's neat ability to have folders within folders and imbed tables.

>>18225342
>>18225380
Here's todays chart. I spent some of yesterday going through old notes on my iphone. again, most of my old notes are contextless trash, but there was a good chunk of cringe lyrics I wrote with some dope chord progressions. So it made a new little node section.

>>18225328
That's for ZK specifically though. For me, who doesn't adhere to it as seriously, it serves just find.
>>18225342
Your last paragraph cut off where I was enjoying it. Very good commentary, though.

>>18217190
>need tomboy

>>18217369
Hey, bubs, got a link to that background gif?

>>18225192
Yes, because I'd argue paper isn't a machine. Nor are a paper and pen capable of interpreting what the human is using them to communicate. That's a key difference with any digital or machine platform.

>>18217190
just use a filing cabinet, manila folders, and a label maker
you can get a quality label maker from staples for $30
use 3 x 5 index cards
If you want to be a hipster, download a vintage Macintosh emulator and use HyperCard!

here's how my ZK looks after a few days. coming together.

>>18217190
I'll just offer a few comments on the digital vs analog divide along with a proposal of how to combine analog and digital content.

I think the major problem with all digital solutions is that most seem to fail the test of time. Just the act of moving content from your device to the cloud or to another device or even to another software solution can be a monumental chore. And so all digital solutions are inherently fragile. They also can be cumbersome. For example just saving a file in tiddlywiki requires a extension..like WTF? They can also be very bloated requiring their own servers or databases.Lastly, there's always an inherent security and privacy issue with having your data being stored on a device (e.g W.T Vollmann refuses to use anything connected to the internet).

Analog systems by definition are somewhat impractical especially when a lot of our content comes from the internet. For instance, if I had a strictly analog system and wanted to save information here I would either have to write it down or perhaps print the page. Unlike digital solutions, analog solutions are not easily accessible from outside their source.

So the real question is how can you combine these into something efficient. My suggestion, although not fully implemented, would be as follows :

1. Keep a list of bookmarks in your favorite browser.

2. Keep 1 text file with a list of key information backed up to the cloud and accessible across multiple devices. This can be literally everything and anything. Use the power of search/grep to quickly find what you're looking for.

3. Create 1 text based index file to contain information on all digital content. Back up to the cloud and have available across all devices.

4. Create 1 text based file to contain information on all analog content. Back up to the cloud and have accessible across all devices.

For both digital and analog content create a folder (either manilla or digital folder) representing the month.

All handwritten notes go in the manilla folder and all digital files go in the digital folder.

Next update your text files with appropriate ids to the folder along with tags or even references to other tags.

Then you will be able to just search your index files and hopefully find your content.

Random stuff like todo's and grocery lists can just go in the generic text file...again using the power of search should be able to find what you're looking for.

This system should allow you to keep digital and analog content, requires no special software and should stand the test of time.

>>18227852
How are you color coding them?

>>18227705
>>18227932
I am enthused by the alternatives being suggested, and will probably include these alternatives in a PasteBin (unless someone wants to help me with this).

>>18227627
It's all machinery.

>>18227973
Not him but there should be some guide online, I think I read it but I wasn't interested.

>>18228157
You see, the real trick is you use the notecard as a book mark, and any time you write down a note for your zettel, you just replace the bookmark with a fresh notecard. That's where the true efficiency comes from.

>>18227973
there's a sidebar for that, not complicated. some people configure the CSS of the electron app to change the automatic color sequence, but I don't do that all that much.

>>18228157
But some machinery is capable of interpreting data, some isn't. A pen does not interpret what is written with it. A computer does.

>>18228299
Yeah, that must is obvious.

>>18228172
Interesting.

How much of this is from the productivity technique, and how much of it is from being the kind of person who would research productivity techniques in the first place?

>learn this autistic computer language and type all your notes out into a botnet in order to take good notes

just use a pencil and a piece of paper, you idiots have read yourselves stupid

>>18228768
I know. I'm pointing out that my issue isn't with whether a tool used is a machine or not, it's whether a tool used can interpret what it's being used for or not.

>>18229687
This is not poltardland, please leave

>>18227852
>>18225414
question for anons.

what do your 'linking notes' look like. Like If im talking about an author and then want to link it to another author the intervening note is me just rehashing material from both parent notes. I'm unsure how to link them directly without introducing new ideas to nuclear notes.

>>18230873
The easy links are the sub topic links. Like if I had a card about negligence I’d have 4 notes of its elements: duty breach causation damages. If there was a particular rule or exception or case to those I’d then link those. Some fields overlap, like damages are in contract cases too but sometimes they aren’t the same kind of damages. Other times one node will just be like “books I have read” as a starting point, then each of those books is a note that I then talk a bit about. If I had recently read two similar books (book of the five rings and art of war, or even starting strength and sun and steel) then I would link those two books together and compare and contrast their thoughts.

Sometimes my link is written [[into the sentence]] because I’m actively trying to work out how it works into the other material.

Sometimes I’ll just link it at the bottom of the note because I just want to remember that the two things are related. [[thoughts on linking]]

Sometimes the extra thought on why the two are related becomes another note.

>>18230934
>>18230873
Here anon, I wrote up about Musashi a bit to show you the process I was thinking about.

>>18217196
Fuck you imbecile, don't disrespect our boy Ludwig

>>18230934
>>18231075
okay okay i think im following. I've currently summarised whole books in one note with 2-3 sub notes elaborating on ideas. I have concepts tagged but the concept itself if explained in the book note so lacks its own original note that isnt just a copy paste of the parent note.

I'll try making more child notes off parents and see if that solves it

found this thread after a hiatus from /lit/. i've used vimwiki for all my note-taking needs. i've done a fair bit of research into the science of learning and while a few things are clearly very effective (spaced repetition, deliberate practice, chunking) most other things are not. zettelkasten and all the software surrounding it are overhyped imo. there are ways to use writing and even writing notes to greatly increase learning capacity but zettelkasten isn't it. it's useful for writing academic articles, for which it was invented, but as a learning tool it has limited utility.

ericsson's studies on deliberate practice (i recommend everyone here read the review paper published in 2019 by ericsson on the subject) indicate that expertise can be boiled down to changes in mental representations. the act of writing notes is only helpful in itself, i.e the process of writing the note aids in learning as it forces the brain to clarify and congeal its mental representation. the notes themselves are not as useful. it is always more effective to write a new note from memory, thereby again forcing the brain to retrieve its mental representation and then, in the process, compress it via chunking, than it is to, say, re-read an old note or try to connect notes together. we avoid the former and are drawn to the latter because of the difficulty of the one and the ease of the other, but it does not change the disparity in their effectiveness.

if you approach note-taking in this way, a kind of "write-and-burn" approach, and if you write the notes with mental representations in mind, it quickly becomes clear that there are certain formats for notes that are superior to others. i won't pretend to have a universal solution, i think it differs based on the subject matter and ones own preferences, but i do think there are some immutables. in particular, breaking the subject matter into abstractions (i.e "vocabulary") and then composing those abstractions into a model, similar to a game of ad-libs, and then repeating this process several times, ideally spaced, ideally with occasional comparison to a reliable reference, ideally from memory, seems to aid in rapid acquisition of knowledge like nothing else i've ever seen. what form the notes take, i.e whether it's a mind map or an essay or a socratic dialogue, seems not to matter as much as the repetition, the decomposition into abstractions and the recomposition of those abstractions into a model.

>>18231629
Great post anon. Is it this one?
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.02396/full

I think the thing that I love the most about the whole method and software is the fact that I have a centralized future proof place to put all my notes. I've lost so many notes and I've written such shitty notes my entire life that I'm genuinely astounded I've made it this far. I know I'm repeating myself now, but after digging around and finding notes I wrote 3 years ago, they are so lacking in context they are basically useless, and in the field of lawyering, it's kinda important to understand the context of a given quote or rule, otherwise it just sits there ( I realize that applies to everything, really) but if anything from this whole process, making rich and detailed notes from reference but note quoting, and then putting those notes into a place where other notes hang out, and letting my brain vomit connections between the two in an articulated way, that's within the software...

Well I think that's pretty neat, even if it isn't the exact same thing as the zettel.

Could you go on a bit more about the abstractions into building blocks thing?

>>18230873
they flow pretty naturally for me

>>18231982
You make my notes sound retarded :(

>>18231982
you have [[science]] as a tag but your node is Science. Is Science its own note or just a linking concept with no information?

>>18231982
>>18231994
so my issue is the the book note for Flow and Deep work want to be connected by an intermediate note but that note just rehashes material from both parent notes (or as in most of my cases is empty)

sorry if I'm sounding like a retard

>>18232001
IIRC deep work is about producing a work environment that is beneficial to flow, but isn’t specifically about the particulars of the state itself? I didn’t actually read flow and it’s been a hot minute since I read deep work.

If you can’t articulate a synthesis between the two, but you know they are connected, don’t bother making a new note just to stick between them. At some point in your writing individually about either book, you may have an insight that deserves its own note, but otherwise just link them. Also, rehashing information isn’t a bad thing if the synthesis leads to something. Sometimes it might not. But sometimes it might.

>>18232040
Okay okay so if theres no synthesis then just don't make the connection.

>>18231629
/x/ thinks you're a wizard. >>>/x/28510769

>>18232001
Why does everyone who has Obsidian write about the tetralogy of learning books?

>>18232525
I'm the TW fan here. What books do you think we ought to read?

How do you guys organize your pdfs/e-books? Is there a software (with the exception of Calibre, which is laughably slow here) for that?

>>18232560
I don't mind it, I just don't know why the example note is always about the books that teach you to take those notes.

>>18232610
If there are any good answers they should go into the PasteBin. I use Calibre personally.

Am I retarded for making a physical Zettelkasten bros? I have an organizer that would work perfectly

>>18232525
because you start this process right after reading them and they're the only notes you have on hand

>>18232686
>>18232610
ive tried calibre and found it underwhelming. honestly just having it all in one 'library' and make sure its all named right and sorted. I also have the folders set to large icons so you can see the whole cover at a glance and have found that really useful

>>18232735
Pretty gud.

>>18232708
No, that's admirable.

>>18232728
I know, but it's the only example people like to post

>>18231760
yes that's the one. the first few sections are most useful, where the terms are precisely defined. the hoarding behavior you're describing is something which gives the mind a powerful reassurance of some kind of "progress", but something which i've found ultimately useless; busywork, if you will. the same kind of busywork as reading self-help manuals on learning and productivity, often written by people that are neither experts in their field nor particularly productive in them. a single missive written by sir issac newton has proved more valuable than a shelf of books promising to "accelerate learning". at some point, not only do reading these books or, equivalently, collecting and organizing ones notes, become a game of diminishing returns, it becomes a form of procrastination. as i said before, only a few things contribute to efficient knowledge acquisition and they seem to have been known since antiquity. nihil novi sub sole.

abstractions are a deep topic. i'm convinced they are something fundamental and maybe universal in the learning process. in a word, abstraction is the naming of things, which is to say language. that language has power, that names have power, is nothing new. what is it that god teaches adam after creation? why is it that the tao is "that which cannot be named"? how much of our ego and identity is tied up with the names we call ourselves? more to the point, in this view, all learning is a form of language learning, but a language not necessarily verbal (as even our ordinary language is not). some examples will, i hope, be more instructive.

example 1: you're studying some academic treatise--a philosophical work, perhaps a work of history. let's say you're studying herodotus (i.e his histories). the abstractions are the events which herodotus describes, generally in the form of amusing anecdotes, as well as their dates and principal agents. the model is given by the structure that herodotus chosen, a cyclical view of history in which, with the usual greek predisposition for fate, flaw and dramatic tragedy, events have a kind of retroactive causation, a recursion brought on by the immutability of human nature despite the passage of time. all the dates, events and agents are in service of this model, which represents your understanding of the book. as you repeat the note-taking process your model becomes more and more refined, the abstractions of higher level as you connect them (and the model) to others you have studied. you are learning the language herodotus has constructed. this is the process of chunking, which , imo, is the process of learning itself.

1/2

example 2: you're reading a scientific article about discovering horizontal gene transfer between different species of grass. there is (hopefully) a lot of overlap between the language presented in the paper and your own. you may know all about synteny for example, and understand what the author means when he talks about the "ploidy" of a particular species of grass. on the other hand other aspects of the language will prove mysterious. analysis tools or statistical methods might be mentioned with which you are not familiar. these are all abstractions. the model is partly given by the methods the author has employed, partly by the "hidden" representation of the problem, its constraints and solution which is presented. as you repeat the process of note-taking the initial abstractions which were mysterious become assimilated into your vocabulary allowing you to manipulate them in the construction your model and to build on top of them to create further abstractions. the paper itself, you might realize, is part of a collection of papers utilizing the same methods. knowing the language of one, you can easily understand the others.

example 3: you're reading a novel, say, anna karenina. the abstractions are the characters, settings, plot points. the model is the way tolstoy has structured his fiction. you may realize, for instance, that anna karenina is principally a novel of contrasts, that tolstoy uses contrast recursively, comparing, at the highest level, anna with kitty or levin with vronsky or at the lowest, dolly's tears of joy at seeing her children tenderly comfort each other in one chapter with, in that same chapter, dolly's tears of vexation at seeing the same children viciously fighting each other. literature is in fact a very finely-tuned, very highly abstracted language, a language of emotions and experience--which is to say "dreams"--that plays on existing schemas, some topical (as when tolstoy makes fun of french poets like baudelaire) some universal (as when tolstoy describes the emotional immaturity of the nevertheless politically competent alexei alexandrovich).

>>18233048
>>18233051
The elucidation of abstractions is greatly valuable but I'm confused at how this is posited that this is something to be learned. Is this not natural?

Surprised that barring one post I haven't seen any mention of org-mode here. It is honestly a bitch to grok at first but it's a worthwhile investment IMO...especially for any of you out there who are privacy-minded, as you get to avoid the cloud.

>>18233521
Id use org mode if I had listened to my friends in highschool and used ubuntu and mined Bitcoin back in 09. I would have done my own programming homework.

I suppose this would be the best thread to talk about it. I just started reading getting things done. I saw that it was briefly mentioned in the thread.
>capture
>clarify
>organize
>reflect
>engage
For capturing I basically have a legal pad I jot things down on and the iphone reminder page, neither of which I've gone through in a while, but would simply write a thing down to get it out of my head. Seeing as this is the first step, that's good, but if I do nothing with it then it's not really useful or reliable as a place to store information.

I suppose what I could do is set a daily event on my calendar app (something I haven't used since university for class schedules) in the morning for 15 minutes for something like 'review inbox of various notes and combine them into obsidian 'to do' list (which I started recently).

From there I think, under the little to do list bullet point, I can detail and articulate what it would mean to finish that thing and break down the thing into accomplishable steps.

I could then block out times on the calendar for deep work moments in which I systematically go through the current to do list. When things get finished, then move those finished points to another note of completed items.

Does this sound about right?

>>18220114
care to elaborate on socratic approach?

>>18233354
it's a natural capacity but the abstractions themselves are obviously not natural (otherwise we'd be born knowing all the languages and wouldn't have to learn anything). the point is by engaging in this process consciously, repeatedly and intelligently you can speed it up by orders of magnitude.

>>18233753
I'd assume it's the process of self questioning until one reaches a solid argument or gives up in frustration that justice isn't murdering children with your bro's sword.

Which, I don't think conflicts with Zettel, because in order to have a Socratic dialogue or use the Socratic method, one needs information to presuppose arguments upon. Part of what one is supposed to do with notes is have new notes spring up from the information already deposited into the system, one of the way those thoughts work is that the questioning of that note or building upon it becomes a new note. Each card is almost like a line in a Socratic dialogue.

>>18231994
in obsidian, you can lowercase note links and it still works, it's more useful than it would sound. sadly, this doesn't work for aliases.

>>18232001
that looks like a malformatted link in both of those notes; is "flow state" (lowercased) the name of a .md file in your obsidian vault? if not, the problem is you're linking to a file that doesn't exist yet.

>>18232708
that's ultratrad and based

>>18233048
>the hoarding behavior you're describing is something which gives the mind a powerful reassurance of some kind of "progress", but something which i've found ultimately useless
disagree, because the purpose is to DISCOURSE with the system; mainly, like the book talks about, to help with producing knowledge work. granted, for people who don't do that sort of thing and just use Obsidian for taking notes on books, the only benefit might be triggering more connections, discoursing with the system won't be helpful.

>>18233521
can you recommend anything to get started? i'm a hardcore vimfag, though, and won't use org-mode unless i can somehow combine it with evil mode vim keys.

>>18233706
GTD is great, i'd be lobotomized without it.
>something like 'review inbox of various notes and combine them into obsidian 'to do' list (which I started recently).
i'd honestly not recommend Obsidian for this purpose (although, granted, it is a very nice markdown editor, aside from its ZK purpose). just make it a habit and hopefully you won't have to write it down anywhere.
>I could then block out times on the calendar for deep work moments in which I systematically go through the current to do list. When things get finished, then move those finished points to another note of completed items.
that's exactly right.

>>18233795
Interesting observation. Although I still think he conflates the gists of those methodologies. GTD is an approach to personal productivity, zettel is a knowledge storage technique, and socratic method is a mental model. They are not mutually exclusive though.

I just read how to take smart notes and I've been managing information in Emacs Org-mode for a few years now but now it's evolved into an Org-roam files.

Basically just obsidian or Roam within Emacs

Damn nigger how did I miss the damn thread?

>>18234548
Tell us anon, about your new plans now that you have discovered the thread.

>>18235149
I will read it.

>>18235161
I can’t wait to see what comes out of that, anon. Remember that the OP has a link to the previous one too.

>>18235170
That's how I knew this thread would come to exist. Despite checking the catalog often the last days, I didn't find it until today.

I remember an Anon proposed something like choosing a subject and seeing how different Anons would organize the information >>18210454

>>18235195
Ha, took me about 50 posts before I found the second thread too. I was the one who suggested that. I’m also the one that posted the screenshot of Musashi as an example. You could maybe try that? Might be too weeb and instagramy of content?

>>18235228
Sounds good. The first Musashi that came to my mind was the Kancolle one so what you propose is probably not too weeby

>>18217190
what's personal knowledge? the imbti stuff?

>>18235506
No. It's where you put all your notes in one place and you look at them and write more of them.

>>18234540
Do you have any tips on how to get into using org mode and org-roam? It seems quite tedious to set up and learn all the keyboard shortcuts.

>>18235195
I'd be interested to see everyone's concept of Love.

>>18233759
That makes sense, great elucidation then.

>>18235324
Musashi is good, but >>18235699 is great too.

Bump!

>>18236933
How’s ur musashi notes going. Show us the way.

>>18237037
Are you sure we should do Musashi? Much of him doesn't pertain in ways I feel to note.

>>18237829
I don’t know man. I thought it was short and simple with some interesting things to think about. You do you, bud. Hard to find common ground to note about between the Catholics, anarchists, fascists, and tree folk. It almost becomes a chore like all the online book clubs that fizzle out once the book is picked. Maybe just do notes on smart notes. The meta is kinda played out but it’s common ground to the thread.

>>18237934
I'm describable as a Catholic anarchist fascist tree folk all at once though. Just write about me.

>>18237996
So you’re basically hank hill?

>>18238251
No.

>>18237037
https://philosopher.life/#Miyamoto%20Musashi

>>18238726
That was pretty great. Read it on mobile this time and I could really appreciate the aesthetic. I like how you worked through it all as a process, though it seemed like by the end you just started bickering with him based on modern principles without contextualizing what a man who lived in a cave from 400 years ago who’s goal was to be the best at killing people said to his student. Good use of integrating links into it. High quality shitposting.

Good work!

>>18238779
>though it seemed like by the end you just started bickering with him based on modern principles without contextualizing what a man who lived in a cave from 400 years ago who’s goal was to be the best at killing people said to his student
based check?

>>18225242
i got trips twice out of four posts in one lit browsing session(yes, no, yes, no)(/lits/ esoterica chart) - not to brag - wanted to share -

incredibly uncanny

This thread isn't allow to die yet

>>18239896
allowed*

>>18239014
I mean, yeah. It’s sort of the obvious route to take. Calling all the advice trite in a variety of ways is pretty easy thinking. It all sounds like a gym bro or an Instagram thot quote. But I find it fun to try and figure out what he specifically meant and argue with that position than just at face value. But again, up until the last list, that anon was being pretty insightful with his shitpost.

would anyone be interested in my notes on a (somewhat) esoteric branch of economics demonstrating my earlier post about "write-and-burn" note-taking? might bump one of the few good threads on this board if nothing else.

>>18241473
Sure. Post them and do an analysis on write and burn.

>>18241493
not sure what kind of analysis is desired. i can describe a rough outline of my workflow with respect to the system but my thoughts on the pedagogical value were already summarized in my earlier post.

>>18241653
That's good work. Thank you for showing us. Excellent topic too.

Found it in /sci a long time ago. It actually makes me think of what we're all talking about here, and give a interesting outlook for a specific subject.
Maybe some connecting note might have been more helpful if you're going to register this into your pkmsystem

>>18243048
Just found the all article for those fully math-nerdy

arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/9704009.pdf

FYI, I don't have it in me to frequent /lit/ or make these threads with the constancy they deserve. Does anybody want to compile a PasteBin so anybody can create them when the old one expires?

>>18243748
What would the pastebin contain anyway?

For the information we have so far it should look like this:

What is pkm
Why using it
What is ZK
What are some software to use
Alternatives to previous software (all the wiki things)

>>18225342
is there more books for the learn pill? and how do I read faster

>>18244181
Reading faster is kind of a meme, it really depends on your objective. Do you want to just get through a book/article/whatever content you're reading or do you want to remember parts of the book or do you want to think more deeply about this and that. It's not a simple one answer because there's different reading techniques for different purposes. For example, priming is a good technique for reading faster in the sense that you're prepared for what is to come if the book is a technical book as opposed to an entertainment book. There's also the expanding your peripheral vision technique which reduces your eye movements and could potentially allow you to save on eye strain as well as just move your eyes more efficiently for the most gain.

>>18244181
I’m the one who made the chart and I’ll eventually get to adding Getting Things Done and Smart Notes. Maybe Aristotle’s rhetoric just for fun. I’ve also found a few older texts about learning to learn from like friars and monks, but haven’t gone through them.

I have a bit that I always copy paste about reading faster, but I’m not at my computer so I don’t have obsidian open to paste it to you. Sorry! Basically you force your eyes to move faster in a particular pattern like a z with the fewest possible saccades beyond what you can comprehend like a training exercise and then learn to constantly be at focus to be right on that edge. Also read more. Also try out audio books at 2 or 3 times speed, building up to it, so you know that your brain can process words that fast.

>>18243048
Interesting directionality. Reminds me of how ZT has that with the paths but if you look at them on a digital format, it kind of loses that reference system. With physical cards, you just run through your appendix or go through the branches.

>>18225211

SOCRATES: But, my dear wise friend anonymous, please enlighten me on this question, for I understand not of what you mean by "degree". Is it about quantity? If a man reads pdfs and writes on his computer, with a word processor and a keyboard, is he more of a cyborg than a man who reads books and writes on his desk, with pen and paper?

>>18233048

Can someone elaborate on books to read on knowledge acquisition that includes these (spaced repetition, deliberate practice, chunking)? I'm trying to break a plateau and hit master in chess, but it feels like I'm smashing my head against a wall. I've spent years stuck despite putting in multiple hours every day. It's making me suicidal to think that I could've saved 10 years of my life if my parents just coughed up the money for a weekly tutor when I was a child. I wish I never learnt of critical period hypothesis.

>>18246168
ericsson literally wrote a paper on deliberate practice and chess. also take a look at the de groot paper. and you don't really need coaches anymore with the advent of computers.

>>18244181
>>18244330

Gotta disagree, reading faster isn't a meme.
There are worldwide competition of fast-reading and fast reader have a better overall understanding of what they read.

Give The Speed Reading Book from Tony Buzan a try, you may be surprised

>>18246168
Anki software is a good one for spaced rep

Have done it a few months in the past, works greatly

>>18246260
I've read the study before. I've even seen a meta study trying to make efficient improvement recommendations. Problem is that my problem is extremely specific: a.) I'm old b.) I've been stuck for years despite seemingly efficient work c.) I'm trying to break that plateau to hit master.

I don't really know what to do. Obviously, if I solve a puzzle now and do it a week later, I'll more than likely remember it, but for some reason during the critical period kids don't even need to work like I do, it just comes to them and suddenly they're made more progress than me.

These are the real blackpills in life.

>>18246743
>a.) I'm old
What age?
Still, it is an excuse. Maybe it'll be harder, but not impossible. I just see it as an excuse.

>>18246743
alright, i'll bite. assuming you did read the papers i mentioned, you must be aware that even children take upwards of 10-15 years to attain master play (in fact, the ericsson paper states it takes longer the younger a child starts playing, the ideal age being just before adolescence begins), so the idea that children learn faster is a fallacy, it only seems that way because they achieve master play at a much younger age. keep mind also that a child tends to have more time to devote to the pursuit of chess since he doesn't have any other responsibilities. regardless, the natural question is how long have you actually spent practicing? ericsson estimates upwards of 25 thousand hours of deliberate practice to achieve top performance, have you done that much?

next, you say that you've done efficient work, but how strictly have you adhered to the principles of--i won't say deliberate since you don't have a coach but will use one of ericsson's own terms--purposeful practice? are you reviewing your own games and trying to identify weaknesses and then training specifically those weaknesses? is your practice difficult enough, testing you at the limits of your ability such that it feels uncomfortable? is your feedback immediate and informative? what kind of training are you actually doing and what kind of results have you been getting? have you quantified them? have you done analysis on what kinds of positions lead to wins, draws or losses for you? these are responsibilities of the coach but which, lacking one, you must do for yourself.

you should also be aware (having read the papers) that the main thing is mental representations. that the difference between an expert player and a novice are the mental representations they have of the game and of the current position both of which they use to make decisions otb. many of them, whether by frequency of play or deliberate memorization, know a library of games by heart. how many games have you memorized? are you still playing at the level of individual positions or can you look at a position and trace it back to a game (your own or one you've studied) and thereby come up with a plan based on the outcome of that game? this of course assumes that you've memorized most of the common tactical patterns so that, like elementary mathematical proofs, you can trust yourself to stop calculation when you've resolved a position (i.e in your mind, in the course of calculation) to one of those patterns. this is especially relevant in the endgame. there is even a book styled around this concept of key positions and games to know by heart, "GM Ram", which you may want to study.

the "real blackpill" is the delusion that you've worked hard enough but are unsuccessful because untalented when, in reality, you haven't even worked as hard or as long as the prodigies whose powers you believe was acquired effortlessly.

>>18217190
Lurker here over my head. Thanks, Wizards and five heads you're expanding my brain BIGLY

>>18243048
/biz/ brainlet peasant here. I see you wizards and I'm wondering how I can keep pace by learning about Blockchain, DBMS, and these kinds of entity maps in a self taught curriculum. It's lofty for little ol me to get anything done after I graduated useless nigger University with a 4.0. MIS was a bad choice. Shoulda just lurked /lit/

>>18246900

Thanks for the earnest reply. I was just expressing my frustration at my lack of progress, but I appreciate that you seem to have really engaged with this topic.

I had been working with a long-term coach personally before lockdown restrictions obviously, but this was as an adult already. To put it into context, of course I've made some progress or at least it feels that way. (My rating peaked at 2100 as a teen and I've peaked at bit over 2100 as an adult, but I'm at 1900 now because I've radically changed my approach to try to break the plateau.) Of course I work on the things you list with a coach. Interestingly these things are also addressed by some chess books with no refence to the academic literature. I hope you understand that I am also really trying here and that it's not possible to hit 2100 without work even as a child, but especially as an adult.

Regarding mental representations I think is far more interesting. Despite similar ratings as when I was younger, I feel that I can articulate the logical truth of the position much more now. It felt much more intuitive when I was young. The position's evaluation just seemed more apparent for whatever reason, but I certainly feel more confident about being more accurate now. I've memorized a lot of master games as a side effect of practicing playing blindfold, but that hasn't seem to have helped me OTB, but I expect that it should pay dividends at some point. That is a good point about being able to recognize positions and evaluate them based on previously known evaluations in a previous game, and that certainly helps me a lot. I can definitely spot many motifs from master games when similar positions occur in my own games, however I don't seem to be able to have immediate access to a full list of games where the exact position may have occurred even though I can recall the game move by move. For example I may be able to recall that the weakness on f2 combined with the weaknesses on the white square diagonal presents a similar motif to morphy game I've seen, but I won't be able to tell you that a similar position occurred in a Alekhine game, despite being able to recall that game too. I suspect that's more of a pattern recognition problem than a memory one perhaps? This does seem to improve over time, and certainly just knowing that your winning evaluation is correct because you've seen it before is enough, but maybe this is where note taking can come in? It's likely the case that I did not notice that the pattern occurred in the Alekhine game because I was not able identify it as a key concept in that game when I did analyze it.

TLDR: Sorry that was getting a bit long-winded, but what I really wanted to ask was how I could apply note-taking, particularly the burn and redo idea in order to push my limits and discover new things. The way I'm trying to study currently (aside from my 2-3 hours a day daily tactics, analysis and playing routine) is to expand my opening prep in

>>18247203
order to widen the range of positions I can force my opponent into with what I believe to be a theoretical advantage. (In contrast to only knowing an opening where my opponent might know the line and be able to force a theoretically uncomfortable position or novelty where we're both out of prep.) I then study those positions and structures in order to be able to play towards the win conditions. Of course I try to select these variations with a coach so that I can choose the ones which emphasize my strengths.

Thanks a lot man, I look forward to your recommendations.

>>18246900
On the critical period hypothesis, I do think there is something to it. I made most of my progress in my teens without a coach just playing weekend tournaments and playing in clubs. I've spent much more time and work now as an adult, and it definitely feels much harder than when I was younger, but there definitely are other factors in play there.

I think you're right though, crying about this won't help me get anywhere. I probably need more to figure out how to stop wasting energy feeling bad about this stupid shit. It's just something that gets more painful over time.

>>18246900
iirc what I'm calling master (around 2200 local rating - NM) is different from what ericsson defines as master. I can't exactly recall what rating ericsson used, but it certainly was not NM. It gets harder and harder to get points the higher up you are, because of diminishing returns from study even ericsson says this in the paper. 2200 then would happen much faster and much easier than say even 2300.

>>18233048
>equivalently, collecting and organizing ones notes, become a game of diminishing returns, it becomes a form of procrastination.

This is why it is important that you know what you are taking notes for. Are you a writer, historian? Do you produce texts, blogs, books? ZK acts as an intermediate staging area that stores your texts for future use.

>>18247346
To elaborate, this is where the ZK method is useful not as a learning tool (writing notes that represent one unit of knowledge and connecting) but as a productivity tool. A new note about an argument you've recently come across may be added to multiple outlines, effectively moving multiple projects forward at once. It's the non-hierarchical aspect of ZK that makes it powerful. Structure is built bottom up, or is emergent as your knowledge increases on a particular topic.

>>18217190
i was browsing the archives and came across that thread. now i see the general. based.

i have used evernote, joplin, and a few other methods. obsidian is probably the best digital note takeer ive come across, but it desperately needs a mobile app

>>18247580
Obsidian is made by two devs, both with anime avatars, for three different OS’s, attempting to respect your security and privacy. What would an app do? Sync? Quick capture?

>>18241653
thanks for all the information you've given so far, if you could describe your workflow. that would be very nice.

>>18247203
>>18247228
>>18247292
>>18247312

first off, re-reading my earlier post i realize that it came out much more hostile than i intended it to be, and i apologize for that. the last statement especially should be read more as a reminder to myself than something addressed to you, who, as you have clarified, has indeed been putting in the work and does not suffer from such a delusion.

i don't know if you've read about template theory but there are a few good papers on its application to chess training (here's a good one to start: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/acp.1110)) . i recommend you give them a look as they discuss the mental representation and chunking concepts in the context of expert chess play. they also explain why certain kinds of "specialized" training like blindfold play, may not be useful at all.

there is something to be said about the differences in fluid and crystalized intelligence between children and adults. however this may only be a consequence of childhood ignorance. as children we simply don't know anything, and so we tend to learn things more quickly in order to fill the vacuum. as adults most of our knowledge has crystalized and we depend more on existing schemas rather than building completely new ones, yet this dependency may not be as biologically hardwired as we think. there have been studies which show that, under extreme circumstances (e.g where survival depends on learning something new) humans regain their childhood neuroplasticity (see the work of dr. andrew huberman--he set up controlled conditions where subjects had to learn something new in order to get food and studied the resulting dramatic changes in neuroplasticity). i don't necessarily advise subjecting yourself to such conditions but only mention it to dispel the doom-and-gloom notion of irreversible neuroplasticity. the key difficulty, it seems, is not in learning new things, but in forgetting the old, erroneous things.

another useful point: deliberate practice is very much dependent on our capacity for gestalt. that's why ericsson recommends breaking performance down into discrete subskills or tasks and then training each one individually. incremental improvement over all these subskills eventually leads, through gestalt, to dramatic improvement in performance. it seems to me that you've already identified a few subskills that needs to be improved, namely, recall of the outcomes of games and mapping between otb positions and past games. you could start with the positions in the gm-ram book i mentioned or critical positions from your own games and search for them on chessbase or fritz.

1/2

returning the mental representation idea and my earlier exposition on abstractions: we know that the 7+-2 rule is actually closer to 1+-2 which means that in order for an expert to perform at an expert level, i.e to tap into their vast store of accumulated knowledge, it is absolutely necessary to chunk information. this process of chunking is, in my eyes, the same process of abstraction but without the interference of language (i.e in verbal sense of the word). the paper i mentioned above discusses this at length and ties it into "perceptual cues", but it can just as easily be understood by the "naming principle" i mentioned above. if we consider chess, like fiction, to be a very highly abstracted language then the chunking process is a process of leaping into higher levels of meaning. in other words, a progressive elevation of what we can store with our 1+-2 units of working memory. we start with how the pieces move, then common tactical motifs or plans (i.e positions), and then finally, to entire games with every aspect of our performance--the pool of moves considered, the evaluation of the position or of positions arising from certain moves, perhaps even creativity or the unspeakable intuition and even genius with which all expert performers are no doubt intimately familiar--affected by this elevation.

what this means for training is simply that one should sweat as one expects to bleed. if what is necessary to chunk games otb is mapping them to positions and outcomes, then you should train yourself in that task, e.g by doing the position search i mentioned above and then trying to recall all the games in which you remember that position occurring (and then their outcomes) and then checking your answers against the database. that would be the chess equivalent of the write-and-burn approach i mentioned. the rule of thumb of discretization seems to be: as many pieces as possible, but few enough that each piece tests you at the limits of your ability.

obviously all this should be double-checked with your coach, who knows your situation best and can recommend a correct course of training more than some stranger on the internet.

>>18247346
>>18247512
this is really the main point. zk was invented to prevent "starting from scratch" with every new piece of writing and for that purpose it works remarkably well, though i'd also add that it is limited to academic writing and not forms (like fiction) where "starting from scratch" is actually a necessity.

>>18247620
it's nothing fancy. all you need is a calendar and some kind of journal. you take notes in the journal, marking the abstractions in some way (i use bold font) and collecting them into some representation of a model (i generally use plain text essays for convenience's sake, but other forms like mind maps, socratic dialogues, elaborate analogies, diagrams etc. are probably better). i set aside some time every night to write notes. after writing i'll take a few minutes to note down any "gaps", holes in my understanding or questions i'm unsure about, at the end. then i'll make an evaluation, a rating from 1-4, of how well i was able to recall the information. i then multiply the iteration number for that topic by the rating and use that as the number of days until the next note session for that topic and mark that on my calendar. this creates a crude form of spaced repetition and as well as interleaving (some days will have multiple topics due and i make some effort in trying to connect them together). after a while i may decide to stop scheduling certain notes depending on the utility or assimilation of their information.

>>18231629
I think you're 100% right. One thing that always sticks out when you look up "note taking" in various iterations are the ornamented bullet journals with colours, stickers, etc. with the functional bit, like a to-do list, making up only a small portion of the page. The same thing is apparent when you see screenshots of their obsidian folder with all the little nodes joined up.

>>18231629
what do you think about 'evergreen' notes

https://notes.andymatuschak.org/Evergreen_notes

seems like an alternative to 'write-and-burn' notes, where instead you're frequently updating your mental representation of a given concept

>>18244355
How to Take Smart Notes: One Simple Technique to Boost Writing, Learning and Thinking – for Students, Academics and Nonfiction Book Writers

This one?

>>18249105
Yep! It’s pretty short, but catches you up on the zettel idea and might shift the way you write notes.

>>18249187
Let's say I want to learn a new language, would it also help me with that?

>>18249199
Not my area of specialty, but I’d assume so. Depends on your language learning capabilities. I struggle with English enough as it is.

>>18217190
I'm amazed by the idea of a personal knowledge wiki but I'm still too baffled to know what to do. Also my inability to read the whole of the thread helps the insight to be kept away.

>>18249636
tl;dr: just give any wiki software a try, and see what you're up to

We're still wondering how to built a more insightful OP message with ressource or some Pastebin that could give every information needed for a good start

>>18250095
I've found Trilium up to be more for my use, because it lets me nest as many notes as I want.
>Pic related.

>>18250154
Interesting
I don't know much about it, what's the difference with Obsidian that have been mentioned many times in this thread?

>>18250262
For example in Obsidian, you can nest your notes in 'folder'(this doesn't link your notes together on the graph). While in Trilium, any note can be a 'folder' the moment you nest a note to it(and you can continuously nest notes upon other notes) and you'll still be able to write on that note. Obsidian lets you open a lot of notes vertically/horizontally or however you see fit and link them together. Trilium on the other hand opens new tabs of the notes you click upon just like a web browser opens new links. Obsidian is mostly markdown, while Trilium on the other hand is WYSIWYG(has markdown support).

It comes down to personal preference really.

>>18250296
Also, I forgot to mention, that when you start up Trilium(self-hosted) for the first time, it will ask you to make a user so that you'll be able to enter protected sessions(basically encryption on your notes).

>>18250329
>>18250296
Ok I think I got it partly, might be retarded but still, does Trilium still enables you to connect notes between each other, like you could do with a Zettelkasten system?

Because for me the main interest in starting to use such a system is the linking between notes that may help arise connections between concepts and/or ideas

(hope I have been clear lmao)

>>18250360
Yeah, but the link system in Trilium is slightly harder to get used and more rigid(because you can't move the tab around like) to than the one in Obsidian.

I think that Trilium is meant for more heavy-based writing(long) rather than free flowing and going from one note to another

>>18217190
I use plain text or text formatted with markdown in a folder and I run Linux. I can grep through the files instantly. Right now I have about 20-books worth of notes taken during the years. I calculated that number by counting the number of words in each file and dividing it by the average number of words in a book that's aimed at adults. This folder is like an extension to my brain. I also encrypt it and use git to version it.

>>18250665
how are you grepping that much text "instantly"? wouldn't it take a long time to do a search? are you using some kind of indexing as well?

>>18250922
You can, with a fast engine like ripgrep's. Let me show you an example. I downloaded the entirety of Stanford's Enc. of Phil. If I do:

$ bc <<< "scale=1; ($(find . -type f -exec wc -w {} \; | cut -f1 -d' ' | paste -sd'+'))/100000"

I get: 242.2 which is the number of books I'd fill with this much text, assuming that the average number of words in a book is 100k. This takes up 172MiB. Ripgrepping is instant.

[...]/text/sep$ time rg hume >/dev/null

real 0m0,097s
user 0m0,194s
sys 0m0,108s

>>18246963
Never seen regret to turn to a life of reading instead of money before.

>>18250922
I was surprised too, I'm amazed it's so well optimized. Most modern software ignore how great the standard Linux tools and how good some CS algorithms are and instead focus on buzzwords and fads. But there you have it, you can search through gigabytes of text instantly with ripgrep. Standard grep is really good, too:

[..]/text/sep$ time grep -nr hume . >/dev/null

real 0m0,368s
user 0m0,328s
sys 0m0,041s

Might take longer than this for more complex (or badly written) regexes but this is the baseline.

>>18250979
>>18251011
how many files are in that directory? i'm searching through 1000+ files and grep is simply too slow to use (probably because of the file I/O)

>>18251236
1691 files and I have an SSD.

>>18251243
are all your files in a single directory or split across different subdirectories? i'm just trying to figure out how your searches are so much faster than mine. i timed a simple search:

grep -nr picoeconomics *.wiki 0.08s user 0.22s system 0% cpu 3:55.46 total

it took almost 4 minutes in total but user and sys time were less than a second, not sure what's going on here.

Use notebooks and your brains, guys.

>>18251289
It's probably waiting for I/O or CPU resources. I have 500 directories in my journal folder. About 20 books worth of text. If I do the same test in this folder I get:

$ time grep -nr test . >/dev/null

real 0m0,147s
user 0m0,099s
sys 0m0,047s

I don't know what might be the issue. Try using iotop or dmesg.

>>18251332
I've been wondering, maybe it's a good idea to pair this up with an anki card to remind yourself about the things you write so you never forget them?

>>18250095
What about the things I know but don't remember? What to do with these?

>>18251365
it was i/io after all. all the files are in one directory and once the files are cached (after the first search) it is very fast.

>>18252317
What do you mean?

If you know those things and know it, then you remember them at some point.
You just have to put them into Anki, and Anki will do the rest ie. showing up the dedicated flashcard in a way (specific intervals) you'll remember

>>18253003
>If you know those things and know it, then you remember them at some point.
If you need them, of course. I mean the books I read but can't pull out from my memory that I read them, or that trivia fact that I'll certainly pull out of my memory if the topic comes up in a conversation.

depending on the material, I either annotate the book directly, have notebooks dedicated to reading notes (table of contents on cover), and text filles for reflection/journals/essays categorized into directories.
When taking notes, I enjoy physically writing. When journaling I prefer typing.

>>18247203
Seriously cheering for you, Anon. You seem to be at a breaking point if you can apply Ericssonanon's help.

>>18225282
Yes. The most fun, for sure. Just do it, it grows like yeast, pretty fast.

>>18247848
re: deliberate practice

when i used to do judo. my sensei would say: practice doesnt make perfect. perfect practice makes perfect

>>18255613
Why the fuck doesn't it have WYSIWYG?
Markdown boils my smooth brain as I enjoy, above all - clarity.

And here comes markdown:
Useless #### for titles (I'm impressed they don't allow 20 consecutively joined "#" characters as they just don't care at this point)
Comments -> %%really?%%
No color highlighting
No inline text sizing options
No grammar check

Are we in 1928? Do we have to build a submarine and operate it like a Flintstone character?
I'm using obsidian currently but I'm on the verge on changing to open-source trillium.

End of my rant :(

>>18256099
Because Trilium is 0.47 version and Obsidian is 0.12 version. In programming terms, they are in 'open-beta' basically you're beta-testing the software currently.

>>18252876
great, mystery solved then lol

bump

fellas, if you're reading and you want to take note of something, do you place your book down, go to your computer and take notes on whatever program? how does this work? doesn't it disrupt your flow? just curious.

>>18257781
I get kind of into reading and'll spend an inordinate amount of time notating on my computer; looks even worse for observers if it's on paper. I try to type it out as fast as I can while reading with selected quotes or afterwards from small notes.

>>18257781
Not really, I can go in and out of flow for reading. It's different than working on something like a paper that requires several sources and connecting them all together.

.

>>18255724
What does that mean though? What's the difference? Do it more carefully? Do it slower? Think about it before doing it?

>>18257781
I usually read to some extent, and then I try to recollect what happened in the chapters I've passed and note it down, this is what I do for non-intensive books(light novels, light books.) While for heavy books(ones that are filled with details, esoteric, heavy in information of specific things) I go back and forth analyzing, h ighlighting parts of the chapter I've just read, and then note it down.

>>18258041
>>18258831
>>18261371
thanks frens, im gonna look into using this obsidian. seems like very nifty tool.

What the fuck, this is everything I've been looking for in years. Bump as I read and try to absorb all this stuff.

>>18262882
There was a previous thread too, although not as information packed.

>>18262882
This thread is some diamond in the mud, but everything should be organised better

One should try to start some pastebin with all infos

>>18262974
It just started recently.

>>18262888
Yeah, I linked it in the OP, >>18262882.

>>18262974
>>18264246
Everyone should be dropping links to see in the next (hopefully more organized) thread.

Seems everyone here is talking about notetaking for books, and particularly academic ones, but how about for creative work and other ideas? Business ideas, creative ideas (Art, music, cinema, etc...), personal ideas, whatever.

I currently write everything of worth down on my phone, and have them divided into basic folders and subfolders by category and topic/project, but it definitely is getting pretty overwhelming.


Can ZK help with developing your own, novel body of work and thinking, rather than just documenting what you read/learn? Does it help in developing and expanding upon ideas? And how can I go about that, preferably with a spontaneous and mobile solution.

>>18264515
Yes the whole point of the zettlekasten system is to create an active thinking process rather then a graveyard of information like you currently have

https://zettelkasten.de/

What is the best way to "make connections" to other ideas?
So far I've just been remembering titles of pages that I have but eventually the web will be so big it will be hard to tell if I have a related thought somewhere else in the system

>>18264515
I've been using Obsidian for a few days and I already definitely feel an improvement in information retention, memory and the logic of connecting ideas. As I still don't understand it 100% I'm mainly using it only for school notes but soon I'm going to try it for a better organization of my drawings and creative plans. Also the app comes out in a few weeks.

>>18264745
maybe just simplify or reduce your ideas to a few words, write about the logic (processes or thoughts, even feelings) that made you think about the relationship of these ideas. The most important thing, experiment, I think that is the most valuable of these systems, that they give you the opportunity to visualize and play with ideas and concepts that in another place would not make sense but here they will.

>>18264745
Do you ever see people ask for books about a particular thing on here and the only book that comes to mind is something that's only tangentially related to the original question and then you have to explain why that book is related to the question for the other anon t ocare enough to look into it? That's the kind of deep interrelated thoughts I've found actually useful. The easy example is like how both book of the five rings and art of war are basically lists of pro tips for a particular way to conduct war, but one is more about management of large forces and the other relies more on internal ideation. We can then take this a step further and make connections of these two books to other topics regarding mass media, their place historically regarding philosophy, their cultural ramifications, or any number of other arbitrary connections based on the other material we have read.

>>18220109
legacy evernote was pretty amazing. the search function was so powerful that i think tags and even notebooks were to a large extent superfluous. if you have a large database, a keyword search should bring up everything relevant without the mental friction of tagging. im not sure how good the search is elsewhere but evernote could read pdfs and images really well. yes it was botnet, but it worked pretty good.

>>18264515
I use it for creative ideas because I have too many ideas. Like I'll have a space opera story, but it lacks a coherent setting or characters, but I'll write that and keep it around. Then I have ideas for characters and technology and neat plot ideas and eventually I realize I can bring some of these together into something bigger. I know that sounds very general, but it helps.

What is the best way to "make connections" to other ideas?
So far I've just been remembering titles of pages that I have but eventually the web will be so big it will be hard to tell if I have a related thought somewhere else in the system

>>18265171
You need to ask your ZK questions (its your thinking partner). I have a two window setup, left side for querying my notes, right for current note I'm working on. Full text search or tags using keywords related to your query help you navigate your ZK. If you are overwhelmed by too many notes, make structure notes (a.k.a table of content or index notes) on topics you are studying - they help collect overviews of disperse notes that can aid in search-ability of your notes. Making lots of connections will also aid in navigating your ZK and is a key principle to aid in learning (making a connection between two notes creates and reinforces neural networks in the brain).

It is recommended to make every note a single unit of knowledge (concept, argument, principle, idea), this makes for easy connecting.

If you find two notes that contain the same or similar propositions, merge them into one note. Rewrite notes when your mental representations are not insync with what your old self wrote. Delete notes that are no longer useful. Your ZK is an active place for you to think in, you never "finish" writing a note.

>>18264515
Art is hard because most of your epiphanies/discoveries are very abstract and even related to muscular memory/sensory perception.
But if you try to put them into words, at least the key/most important ones, I think it could still be helpful.
You could also put little doodles or soundbits illustrating the concept to help.

>>18265780
Draw ideas, thoughts, brain storm on a white board. Take a picture of it. Add it to your ZK as a note. Below the image you write why it is interesting to you, link to another piece of artwork you think is related or some symbolic meaning that is exemplified in the art work. Perhaps it is a piece of art work you like and you'd like to document your qualitative analysis of it. Then link to it from an index note you have on say 18th century French art for example. This could be useful for a future project.

It's all about what you are using your ZK to produce.

>>18266033
For business, here is what I might do.

Create a note and describe my business idea. Then I would create an outline that discusses pros/cons of the idea. Here I would lean heavily on concepts I've developed in the domain of philosophy of business. I might link to notes on value creation - shared resource and services - and how I can bundle them (ideas I mainly picked up in the personal mba book and else where including my personal experience).

The business idea is very concrete. I can use abstract principles / concept notes I've developed over time that can I think apply concretely here.

Maybe this could produce a business plan. Really though I would do this to help me think.

Tourist from /tg/ and /g/ here. Surprised there isn't a similar thread on either of those boards actually.

>>18265171
For context, I've been using Tomboy as a personal wiki/Zettelkasten since around 2008 or 2009, long before I even knew what a Zettelkasten was, and I've accumulated over 2000 pages/notes. My notes are categorised, but I have relatively few categories (around 30).

I start each note with a 'header' indicating if it was split from another note, and also other related notes off the top of my head. As I organically come back to the note over the years, I add new connections as they occur to me. Everything is a draft, so don't angst over whether the connections are 'complete'.

But in my opinion the best way to make connections is automatic linking, which unfortunately only Tomboy seems to fully support. I must have tried dozens of alternatives, as many as I could try that aren't paywalled, but nothing else comes close.

Tomboy doesn't have any kind of visualisation/graphs like Obsidian, but I always found those gimmicky anyway.

>>18266673
Automatic linking creates information, but it does not help you create knowledge. Linking notes yourself (manually) is how you actually produce knowledge in your ZK. You create a link and describe why the connection exists, you have to really think about the connection. That produces new knowledge. Automatic back linking etc. is useful, but the software does the "thinking" for you and does not describe why links were created.

>>18266805
>You create a link and describe why the connection exists, you have to really think about the connection.
You can still do this with automatic linking, and I do; I explicate the link if needed (which is not always the case), but linking itself is handled automatically. Automatic linking inspires subsequent connections more than you might think, especially as you explore old notes.

>>18231629
bump

i keep coming back to this post

>>18267814
It's insanely good. I swore to not put anymore work onto these threads but I may just make a PasteBin to compile his posts.

>>18267836
do it please

>>18267923
Probably easier to link a PDF upload of them instead of squeezing them into PasteBin plaintext...

>>18267836
Some Anon started the PasteBin already
>>18264246

Share the link Anon so we can help you built this reference altogether, you don't have to take all the burden

>>18268257
I should've been clearer, that's bad on my part. What I should've said is that this general had just started very recently as you can see in OP's previous thread. Basically, it will take a while until everything is organized neatly.

>>18267836
One day I’ll write good enough posts to be considered sticky material. One day.

thanks anons, obsidian is just what i needed

>>18232708

don’t worry, you’re not the only tard head with a physical ZK

>>18269026
Damn for real Anon? Isn't it a pain in the ass to managed this on a "daily" basis?

>>18219299
What book?

>>18269065
manage? fucking lmao

i unironically don't know what i'm doing despite doing this for a month, and i recently found out that what i'm doing is called zettelkasten

>>18269114
Depends, do you link piece of idea / notes to each other?

>>18269079
"How to take smart notes"

>>18269268
there's a theme to it: some notes and quotes fit on different tags, such as Life or Wealth. that is the easy part.

and then there's more specific notes and quotes that create a pattern: some notes and quotes i have for Life and Wealth fit in a smaller theme together, which either creates a new idea or thought or revelation hidden in plain sight that i just never cared to notice.

there is a slight problem though—i don't have a clever, efficient system that link notes together from different tags. i simply try to tie it all together under the Notes tag, which ends up being messy because there's not enough space on the card to link everything.

as a side—i unironically want to write a book, but found it hard to write because i just don't know what to say. i still don't know what to say, but with this box of notes the book is writing itself (shittitly). at this rate, i think 2 or 3 enough of these ZK boxes is good enough for a reference book.

>>18269408
i think its cool youre doing it analog style but i think some software would do you a lot of good

bump x2

>>18268394
Sooner than you think, Anon.

>>18264246
>>18268257
I still see no link for the PasteBin but don't want to start one so we don't have to deal with two of them.

>>18268939
Enjoy!

I've never clicked on any of these threads until right now, what's their purpose?

I've never clicked on any of these threads until right now, what's their purpose?

>>18271693
This is only the second installation. Just read what you can, basically towards better knowledge.

was thinking about the abstractions concept on my walk and about how it is related to jargon. jargon is like the collective abstractions of any given topic, or a set of agreed upon representations of concepts and ideas unique to a topic. you see this especially in the second example - a scientific topic.

i was also thinking about how when you learn a language it's about seeing how this new model overlaps with your current model and also how it doesn't. maybe it's an excuse but it makes me wonder if anglos have a hard time learning languages because they've lost a lot of grammatical structures other languages have. it's hard to make sense of grammatical cases, or modal particles for example because they aren't present in English.

>>18271766
When I think about what you're thinking about, I like the words referent, designatum & denotatum. Massively helpful for building up those parts of my brain to think further. If you spend enough time around Zoomers, you'll see they talk about a vibe a lot; it's a stupid neologism, but I couldn't help but feel it had some veracity in describing something. I eventually realized it had value as a phenomenological referent, describing something which can be evaluated further with better verbiage and language.

Otherwise, with regards to designata and denotata, I find they're great helps in describing systems, or things people posit. Sort of a specifically useless reply for me to post, but it may help some people.

>>18271787
final bump from me

another one from me

>>18271766
I like this idea about jargon. I think jargon is often dismissed as a way for people in a profession to obscure knowledge or to artificially inflate a subjects importance via a false complexity. But like you said jargon is a set of concepts, one jargon word will be part of a set and using one will communicate what set of concepts will be used throughout a conversation or whatever, kind of like defining a library, maybe? Use of jargon also communicates that the writer is familiar with related concepts that have been given a jargonistic term, showing they have a base level of understanding on a subject.

>>18271766
There’s that quote about how human progress is based on the number of things we can make things we don’t have to think about. Progress in so many fields is, in part, by invention of new words and concepts that basically stand as a symbol/signifier of a paragraph of information, that paragraph, if typed out, would, itself, have many words that each would be a paragraph themselves. It’s part of the reason you start with the Greeks, the historical dialogue of philosophy is based on these invented words that describe whole books sometimes, so when you read zizek who references Hegel and Marx who are, themselves, based heavily on arguments against past authors who are based on arguments of past authors all the way back to pre Socratics.

I use this as justification to use big words when talking to people because I firmly believe that complicated things should not be “explained easily” as most people think of that phrase. It’s more a “I can explain the simple 60 concepts that, when put together make this complicated concept” deal. Sometimes it’s true, I don’t have a full grasp on particular things, but my inability to properly articulate it isn’t solved by explaining simply, I think.

>>18273774
Researching the development of basically anything, Christianity and its doctrines in particular, is fun and easier to discuss SPECIFICALLY because of the terms created to identify some subjects. I saw a Bloom interview where he said something like, "If you don't read good books, you won't be able to think"—full stop—and this rings true when you try to tackle anything existing for longer than your investment in it.

>>18273774
there's a happy middle ground, I've got a bad habit of making my writing needlessly complex and sometimes verbose. It's a hindrance to communicating. I often score really poorly when I check my writing on the flesch scale, even when discussing simple topics.

I guess the inevitable state of conceptualisation is where the subject being explored and built upon is too complex to be fully understood when all concepts are decompressed, it taking more than all available processing power. So that the initial history and starting point is lost to obfuscation due to lost descriptions of concepts.

This thread needs to live forever. Bump!

>>18274102
you've convinced me to keep bumping until it reaches bump limit lol

>>18271766
this is really what i was getting at with my examples. it seems like a reduction to say that all learning boils down to language learning, but only if you're thinking verbally, in the ordinary sense of language, but abstractions are by no means limited to what can be verbalized. they are often verbalized as a means to communicate those abstractions with one another--the communication upon which all civilization rests--but of course this is an imperfect process. if it were perfect, there would never be any miscommunication, it'd be telepathy.

the language which exists between a married couple of 40 years has long since evolved from mere "language", just as it has for two martial artists in the ring that have been practicing for 40 years or two chess grandmasters that have been competing for 40 years. the novice relies on language in the beginning because, as you pointed out, any new models are related to old ones, and the one model we all have, from birth, is ordinary language. that's probably why coaches, teachers and direct instruction are so integral to effective learning, the more so when dealing with knowledge which cannot be easily put into words--a golf swing, say, or a particular harmonic progression or mathematical proof in topology. i think at some point, every expert, regardless of field, begins to deal with such highly abstracted language that their "words" become something almost like platonic forms. it would certainly explain all the notions of divine inspiration and spirituality--the muse, intuition, or feeling--that are often invoked in the discussion of expert performance; that which has no name is god. it would also mean that anything which involves verbalization in learning, be it writing notes or reading books, is a only step in the process of discarding that very verbalization (unless one wishes to communicate it to others). and so the road to mastery begins with ordinary language but at some point the rest is silence.

>>18274447
"The word 'God' is always a mask," &c....

He who shall live, bump

After hesitating about what kind of notes to use (evergreen/zettelkasten/blabla) and trying out Obsidian but not liking it a few months ago, I finally started using Obsidian thanks to this thread.
Would recommend 10/10. Thanks anons.

>>18246963
Finance student here going through something similar to what you are talking about. I don't have the answers but I know what is working for me on a broader scale. I think the trap a lot of people fall into is not creating a proper learning method. And what I mean by that is people don't go through the correct process of making a workflow/method etc.
Take Ericssonanon for example >>18247923
This is a really good post that dissects his workflow and he drops a lot of good ideas. I am particularly partial to the gaps in understanding and the quantification of his ability to recall and divulge information. The point being, the mistake here would be to try and adapt his workflow verbatim. I think the better method, is to take the ideas from his method, apply them, and if it works keep them if not move on. Everybody is different, and it's the reason I absolutely LOATHE those youtube videos like "the best note-taking method" etc. because it assumes that it will work for everyone. The perfect learning method will be a synthesis of other good methods in a way that you have tested and applied and can be certain it works as you built it yourself. i.e. read things like Ericcsonanon's advice and critically think about it, (don't watch those shitty study youtube videos).
So to answer your question specifically about things like blockchain and how to keep up I am in the same boat and may have an answer for you (I just don't have the motivation to apply it). This mostly comes just from what I have observed of my father, who carries a fair bit of clout in the cryptography and security industry. He can read the whitepapers and so forth with extreme ease. He can do this because he has built up a huge knowledge base over the course of like 40 years. Obviously, that isn't viable, but I think the point here like my point above is to lurk as much random stuff as possible. If you can get access to like a college database with journals and stuff I would say that is equally valuable and try to just read as much edifying stuff about it as possible. Goes without saying to critically think about it to i.e. don't just lurk biz and read nonsense, go read the whitepapers and think about them.
That advice may just be 'yeah no shit' tier but I think the point is the only way to keep up is literally keep up, especially when it just comes to amassing raw knowledge.

Le Bump

>>18273774
>I use this as justification to use big words
kek

There is a saying that you should never trust a dumb person's explanation of a topic, because they truncated something complicated for their own understanding.

It reminds me of when I tried to explain Technique (Ellul) to my brother. I tried to give examples, even though I know the definition, because the definition itself contains words that to understand you'd need to read the book anyway. Yet after I finish explaining several examples he says "yeah but what does it mean?" lmao

>>18275505
what font is this? very cool to see your setup

>>18276912
The theme is obsidian_ia. I don't remember what font I installed, but you can find it in the theme's description.

Bumparooni

Some recommended reading for newcomers: Start with how to take smart notes, then read this: https://zettelkasten.de/posts/overview/

Often after reading how to take smart notes people are confused on how to actually get started. Zettlekasten.de is a gold mine of practical knowledge work/zk lit.

Lots of talk about software which is a very small detail of ZK. All you need is software that can link to other notes. Free or paid, does not matter.

>>18275505

Is there a reason you have folders for sources, notes, index? I prefer one folder with all my notes. If I need a type of note I just use tags. Also what does an index file look like in your archive? Surely that is just a structure/index note that can exist amongst your other notes?

>>18278052
>Is there a reason you have folders for sources, notes, index? I prefer one folder with all my notes.
You're right actually. I was originally planning to separate notes for original thoughts and notes for sources, but my notes go in the Notes folder by default and I'm too lazy to drag them into the correct source folder. That's why I just tag them and I'll probably remove the source folder later.
>Also what does an index file look like in your archive? Surely that is just a structure/index note that can exist amongst your other notes?
It can, but it's faster to access them through an index folder because I don't have to remember their titles.

>>18217190
What should I actually take notes on? Everything in this thread has given me a lot of good information regarding how to take notes and process information effectively. But I have yet to see any actual qualification of what I should be taking notes on. At best it seems like you just take notes on ideas you find interesting. At worst it seems like people will just try and download their entire brain and just dump everything they know into a note system. As of right now, I feel like the most effective way to take notes is to take notes on interesting ideas and concepts. Specifically with the purpose to more efficiently process what I read and learn. I suppose in other words I am asking how far you should take this, and what you should actually apply it to?

there are some nice examples of proper not taking >>18275505>>18250154
>>18232001
>>18231982
>>18231075
>>18217369
you guys mind posting more your notes

>>18275956
Really enjoyed reading your posts, some of the most thought-provoking stuff I've encountered in a while. Curious since you seem to have given a good deal of thought to it and have studied in-depth across a number of fields, what your current "workflow" or process is for studying and retaining info?

i.e. you read something identify the abstractions, create a model compare with other models. Then later come back and repeat the process, recall abstractions, generate model etc. or do you reverse the direction and start from mental model and try to recall the abstractions in the context of the model?

How much do you record physically vs relying on recall? Thanks.

>>18279112
seconded

>>18279112
https://notes.andymatuschak.org/About_these_notes?stackedNotes=z4SDCZQeRo4xFEQ8H4qrSqd68ucpgE6LU155C

Andy Matuschak's notes are a gold mine.

bump

saving bump

>>18279112
I'm one of those people you called out, would you be able to explain how have I made it wrong?

>>18281153
Think he meant to add an "e" in there, Anon.

>>18279112
Quite a few of my notes are Attorney Work product with attached Attorney Client privilege, so I have to be sure not to have those pop up. But here's my map currently. Found out how to add colors and you can see those colors correlate to my major file sections.

I've been busy moving the past few days so I haven't really had the time to post in these threads or work on my connections. As you can see from the graph, most of each section has a hub word or phrase that everything else connects to. I'm still learning to change my mode of thinking away from hierarchy, but it's difficult, especially since I use my notes more as a dump than what it really should be. Though I would argue that a dump is a good first step. The GTD method asks for everything to be in one spot. And since trying to put everything in one spot I have picked up on the fact that my old method of notes wasn't detailed or future proof. They were contextless. I'm now trying to solve that problem from now on so that it's not another 3 years from now when I realize that I have no idea what I'm writing about. The linking together of things hasn't been as important to me because I am still struggling with isolating my notes to one idea or fact.

I don't really see the point in showing you more of the notes in particular because they aren't actually that good.

Is there any reliable guide on Obsidian? Also, how do you deal with graphs? I mean, what are the real purpose and use of them? Are you building logical chains or what?

>>18281451
For me, I like the graph view because it lets me visualize where things are in a physical space. Like the memory palace/ method of loci stuff, where the human brain understands spatial memory better than any other form of memory.

>>18279053
for me its mostly book notes.

after reading this thread i think i will change my approach. usually i would just mark things i want to revisit, or thoughts i have. but i think making note of abstractions, and making a point to revisit them will help a lot in beinf able to really discuss them

>>18281179
What do you mean by that?

>>18281592
"proper not'e' taking"

>>18281592

Not the same anon but where you seem to have read >>18279112 as saying 'not taking' it should have been 'note taking' and twas a compliment

Unrelated to above I want to say thank you to the many anons in this thread for your contributions! I had a growing dissatisfaction with my (limited) note-taking & info storing but didn't know how to begin to address it. This thread came at a great time for me, hopefully I'll be able to contribute something more useful in its future incarnations.

>>18281609
Fuck, sorry for wasting your time to answer to such a banal question and thank you. It's just that I didn't think I would be complimented about it, since I rarely get ones from the ones nearby me in life.
>>18281627
It has taken me lots of experimenting, though. I've had to use several note-taking apps, several different note-taking strategies, constantly writing and re-writing, until I found the note-taking app to use and how to write notes.

>>18281695
Don't worry one bit, Anon! I'm not the same poster, but I do enjoy the notes tagged; I hope you can receive the due adulation you deserve!

>>18279429
To clarify I am also this guy>>18279053
But to answer your question, I would say I rely generally more on recall, probably more than I should. Right now the workflow is based more on evergreen than ZK, I find that evergreen is better for capturing everything and organizing it in order of importance. I would say the model stuff only comes into play if I am working on an actual paper. For example, I like to let things ontologically develop naturally, rather than come into it with some taxonomical hierarchy, but like I said that works for me. When I am working on a project it's more like you described where I try to recall the abstractions in the context of the model. I have a really good memory, especially when it comes to theory and the abstract, so I tend to crutch on that but I think I lose the ability to ground my ideas more credibly. If I had a choice I would rely more on the physical as I think the upside is much greater, that being said it's a process to actually do as much. The workflow right now is not ideal, as I am not on as strict of a schedule as I would like to be, but the idea is generally read and encounter ideas during the day, write these ideas down in a daily note to be processed, i.e. before like 8 pm, after that, I usually use that time as leisure, but a good way to wind down for the night is I will go through the daily notes and pick and choose which notes live or die. This is the evergreen method more or less and I suggest reading about it here https://notes.andymatuschak.org/About_these_notes as he will give a much better description than I do.

Take this advice with a grain of salt though as I don't implement this as much as I would like.
To your point about me giving it a great deal of thought. You are right to an extent, I study things more in line with motivation/discipline, etc. but there is a huge overlap. I think a big distinction is a purpose for what you take notes for. If you take them to 'base your knowledge' I think the idea is basically to just create a wiki for yourself and everything you learn. If you take notes to function better as a person, I think the approach should be to take notes on ideas and connections you find interesting so that you can actively call on them faster than you would from just recall.
The evergreen guy talks about it here https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z6UDDkom8Aifg6mLdjT1sPtbMBweCmpyTwmJT, a lot of what I said in this post is echoing him, and his page sorta illustrates my point that the best method for 'knowledge work' is going to be a synthesis that you have developed. From all my research this thread by far is the biggest goldmine of things like that. Between Ericcssonanon, the philosopher.life guy, and the evergreen note links, I would say those three alone give you a rock-solid base to start on with respect to all this stuff.

>>18279112
>>18281400
Here's a screen cap of some of my major hub pages

>>18282082
How do you keep the graph in the corner like that? Is it just opening enough panes to where it's compressed like that?

>>18282150
Just drag the graph pane to the file explorer one

>>18282182
Thank you, that's very good.

>>18256099
>FBI created markdown to track autists
BASED. I miss BBCode being the Internet standard, Markdown always fucks up my deliberate use of symbols like when I want to write ~le meme~ or *blocks your path* or something like that.

I think this post kills the thread, I'm still reading through it (quoted post is where I'm at) but I'm listing all the things that could be mentioned in a Pastebin.
If nothing is ready for next /pkmg/ (which I will not be creating), I will chime in and provide all my thoughts on the subject and useful resources/topics.

>>18281451
LYT on YouTube has a very useful guide on starting with Obsidian and to answer your questions regarding graphs, it’s a visualization for ideas. I personally learn through the sight, looking at how my ideas/notes connect with each other helps me to reinforce my memory and also provides experimental paths. It’s like literally looking at a brain.

>>18282604
>I personally learn through the sight, looking at how my ideas/notes connect with each other helps me to reinforce my memory and also provides experimental paths. It’s like literally looking at a brain.
Good idea, thank you.

>>18282241

In markdown you can use backslash (\) to escape special characters so they're not rendered. Not helpful if you're copying from raw .md files though...

>>18281485
>it lets me visualize where things are in a physical space
Doesn't the position change according to how many nodes are in the collection?

>>18283304
Yeah. But that's not the point. The links are still the same links

>>18282241
Oh, I forgot threads die at 310, not 300.

Here's the outline, as I don't have much time today:

Personal Knowledge Management (PKM)
This thread is dedicated to organizing all the information you consume, generating new ideas and improving your productivity.
>What is this for?
Having an organized database of your knowledge frees up brain space and allows you to focus on the tasks at hand, instead of trying to mentally juggle several lines of thought simultaneously. It also forces your ideas to be more clearly defined, as the human brain tends to be satisfied with vague, fuzzy notions.
>Ok, but WHAT is this for?
Remembering what you read. Learning a subject. Learning a skill. Writing papers. Writing fiction. Developing your character. Developing theories. Getting things done.
Virtually anything related to learning can benefit from efficient knowledge management.
>What do I have to do?
In short: Learn to take proper notes. That's it.
When you learn new content, be it from a book or from a martial arts training session, don't let it fade away: turn it into a short reminder. Then, elaborate on it when you have the time and integrate this new piece of information into your favorite PKM method.
>What are the main PKM methods?
- Zettelkasten (ZK): "Slip box", in German. A system of interlinked notes in an organic way, rather than hierarchical. Not meant to be read from start to finish, but rather browsed where the wind takes you (serendipity), in hopes of providing unexpected connections and repurposing "old knowledge" into new context. Its potential grows exponentially. It is recommended to read the book on the subject before starting your ZK, check the resources list. ZKs are great for interdisciplinary learners, academic writers, [add more]. / Recommended software: Obsidian, [add more]
- Personal Wiki (PW): A personal wiki. Used for structuring and linking information in (generally) a more hierarchical way, making sure all points have been covered. Great for planning and executing projects, to-do lists, worldbuilding and cataloguing. / Recommended software: TiddlyWiki, ZimWiki, [add more]
- Spaced Repetition Software (SRS): Flashcards. Used for reviewing and remembering large quantities of information. Great for things like language learning, law and medical school. / Recommended software: Anki or Supermemo.
>Which one should I use?
None. Any. All. A little of each, depending on your needs. These are methods to help you to understand and structure your own way of thinking and leaning, not cake recipes. Experiment.

>Resources
Add those 4 books from anon's pic that has GTD.
Add the book about Smart Notes/ZK and the ZK.de site that has some more practical examples on how to make notes than the book.
Supermemo Guru (which we should talk about next thread, no one mentioned it so far somehow...): https://supermemo.guru/wiki/How_to_solve_any_problem%3F
Some stuff posted on this thread is also great, but I have to go.

Hopefully this helps.

>>18283604
Oh, I completely forgot:

>Should I take notes manually or digitally?
Writing manually requires more focus, thus it is more beneficial.
But digital is more practical, easier to manage, search and archive. Again, experiment. Think of your knowledge database as a lifelong project, so future-proofing is always a good idea.

>>18283625
>>18283604

This is really great for an OP message.
One will have to improve / enrich it over the next threads with experiences from Anon, but this is great

>>18283604
Very good. I can tell you know what you're doing. Hopefully everyone pulls the shit they were working on out before we hit bump limit.

Anyone used zettlr? I saw some professor at my uni talk about how good it is.

>>18284917
How have I never heard of this, thanks for the tip.

I want to see more complete and explorable examples, not just screenshots.

>>18285379
Be the change you want to see anon. I’m sorry my screen shots aren’t good enough for you.

>>18285379
It's not really something you see though. It's something you do. It's like reading someone else's notes and being like what the fuck is this guy even writing.

Great thread everyone. I'll see you in the next one.

>>18285528
Naw, anon. Your screenshots were dope and amazing even if insufficient for a topic this complex. Thank you. And, yes, I'm doing my best to be the change I want to see.

>>18285554
That's an excellent starting intuition, and you are correct about the necessity of having done it yourself (there is no substitute). I'm reminded of: see one, do one, teach one. In this case, it doesn't matter how good you are at this practice: there's still plenty worth seeing as an expert (I've systematically read every page of some very large examples in this sphere), even if we can't understand these objects as well as their authors.

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