/lit/ - Literature

Brb putting this in my “To be burnt” stack

>>18212534
>"A revelation" - The New York Times
into the trash it goes >>18212534

>>18212534
About to finish the Iliad tonight and planning to do the Odyssey next
Obviously I'm not planning to read this translation but, what exactly is wrong with it?
Like how badly could someone fuck up a translation?

>>18212641
When they don’t actually translate, but just put whatever words they feel like in.

>>18212641

>>18212534
This is Warlock by Oakley Hall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cqlHqCIWx0

>>18212670
Bottom one is the vagina one? I dont know, ive only seen troy once.

>>18212670
Ok holy shit it's like when I satirically summarize shit from the Iliad for my friends...except it's not funny and she actually got praise for it.
So, who do you lads recommend?
I did Lattimore for the Iliad and was planning to do Fitzgerald for the Odyssey

>>18212670
well the bottom one sucks ass so i guess that's gotta be her but who is the second?

>>18212670
I’m confused. The bottom one is clearly abridged, yet the OP picture makes no mention of this fact.

>>18212534
It was the only one I enjoyed reading. Looking forward to the publishing of her Iliad. Wilson's Odyssey is the best homer translation since Pope.

>>18212710
This comment in a nutshell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlKmNMcgZYQ

>>18212674
Yeah it is warlock by Oakley Hall

Her Iliad is going to be really good.

>>18212782
I hope so. Homer isn't Homer if it's dry and academic. It was meant to be festival entertainment. Robert Graves said the Iliad has more to do with Shakespeare than with Milton. Wilson has the poetic style to pull it off.

>On First Looking into Chapman's Homer

>Much have I travell'd in the realms of gold,
>And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;
>Round many western islands have I been
>Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.
>Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
>That deep-brow'd Homer ruled as his demesne;
>Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
>Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold:
>Then felt I like some watcher of the skies
>When a new planet swims into his ken;
>Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes
>He star'd at the Pacific—and all his men
>Look'd at each other with a wild surmise—
>Silent, upon a peak in Darien.

>>18212682
Fitzgerald's Odyssey is excellent

>>18212670
>He failed to keep them safe
AGGGGGHHHHHHHHH THIS PISSES ME OFF SO MUCH
HOMER SAID THEY DIED OF THEIR OWN RECKLESSNESS... HE DID NOT PUT THE FAILURE ON ODYSSEUS
FUCK ANYONE INVOLVED WITH THE PRODUCTION OF THIS CANCER OF A TRANSLATION

>>18212688
anyone?

>>18212857
It says the exact same thing in the other two. The exact same thing.

vox said it was good because she is a strong woman. here's what happened

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/11/20/16651634/odyssey-emily-wilson-translation-first-woman-english

Virgins

>>18212670
>Translations differ that wildly from one another
....
Is knowing Ancient Greek needed to get the real story

>>18212866
Failure does not mean the same as unable to save.

>>18212866
NO IT DOESN'T
EVERY OTHER TRANSLATION MENTIONS THE RECKLESSNESS OF HIS MEN AND BLAMES THEIR DEATH ON SAID RECKLESSNESS
WILSON JUST SAYS ODYSSEUS FAILED TO KEEP HIS MEN SAFE WITH NO MENTION OF THEIR FLAWS

>>18212906
you have to keep in mind it's a poem with a distinct meter so a translation can only do so much

>>18212539
based

>>18212866
based retard too lazy to read the next sentence

>>18212688
Fitzgerald

>>18212911
>>18212914
Even so he could not save his companions.

But he could not save them from disaster.

Learn to read, virgins. Wilson mentions the recklessness just the same.

>>18212946
hola, habla espanol? ja ja ja

>>18212688
>>18212945
It's not Fitzgerald, it's Fagles. Fitzgerald's begins with "Sing in me".

Reminder that you haven't actually read Homer until you learn Greek. Translations threads are just pointless shitflinging, they all suck.

>>18212946
based retard too lazy to read the next sentence

>>18212946
>Wilson mentions the recklessness
WHERE

>>18212670
at some point appealing to the masses turns to the degradation of a work. These were meant to be spoken not read but this is far past that. I think this is showing it, it reads like sparknotes when I was young.

I read the controversial parts of the NIV bible in the KJV for this reason, but now I wonder where I should read another bible version in whole.

>>18212962
The only chance a Homer translation has at being successful is conveying the performative entertainment aspect of it. Robert Graves said that by translating too closely to the original, the essential meaning is ironically obscured. You have to understand the the Iliad has as much in common with the Superbowl as it has with Paradise Lost. Check out Robert Graves translation if this idea intrigues you.

>>18212972
It's clearly implied. You could also try reading the entire text instead of complaining about things you haven't read.

>>18213002
Lattimore NT is highly recommended.
OT I haven’t found anything better than the KJV. I wasted a shitton of money on the Alter version only to find it sucked shit.

>>18212534
Reminder that this cunt is doing Plato next.

>>18213004
>The only chance a Homer translation has at being successful is conveying the performative entertainment aspect of it.
That's why you listen to the audiobook version of it.

I thought Lattimores Odyssey was a bore and a chore to read. Wilson's is readable and the only Homer translation I could recommend to a friend as a good book in general. The op is just shitposting and I have not seen a serious, let alone damning critique of Wilson's Odyssey. Stay mad, virgins.

>>18213023
Why not consider a Jewish Tanach translation? You know, one published by people who can read Hebrew? The KJV team never met a Jew in their lives. Why not take it from the people who know their own scriptures the best? Are you too attached to Christological interpretations? Misrepresentations if you ask me.

lol

>>18213078
I have, read my post. Alter sucks. Recommend me one.

>>18213052
shut the fuck up tranny

>>18213052
Hating on based Lattimore should be grounds for an execution.

>>18213078
the original new testament was written in Greek. So perhaps for the old it would be prudent to read the Hebrew version. Unless you have some other conspiracy to how the new was written, and how it would have been passed down till now.

>>18213090
You're losing the culture war. The average reader would prefer Wilson because it's a decent read. Stay mad incel.

>>18213110

"the average reader" isnt reading this; theyre reading whatever the new YA drivel is. Fuck off and leave the classics alone.

>>18213089
No, KJV is fine if you just want pretty English literature. If you want to study the divine word of God or Hashem or whatever, you will have to learn Biblical Hebrew. Christians invariably mistranslate a number of passages so that their old testament Christology can have some meager footing.

>>18213139
Whatever, cutcock.

>>18212670
The difference in vocabulary alone is shockingly stark.

It's like the difference between a university thesis and a 5 year old's first 100 word essay homework assignment.

Wilson chooses words like a zoomer that has grown up on the internet and never read a classical work in her life. Everything is so...simple and devoid of any style or elegance.

Please never let this woman touch translation again.

>>18213129
knowing seems to increase unknowing. To my psedu understanding, Aristotle believed happiness the end pursuit of man. And Schopenhauer believed that we continue on learning out of a false-belief that in learning we may increase our happiness.

Why learn then? If all knowing increases the breath of which we know we do not know, thus who could a Schopenhauer even continue, if he was not in some way a doubter of his own works, more angry he had not been proven wrong, genius he was, than right.

A very pretty poem, Ms Wilson, but you mustn't call it Homer.

>>18213220
Richard Bentley btfo Emily Wilson 300 years ago.

>>18213089
Why do you think Alter's translation sucks?

>translates "cyclopses" as "cyclopic people"

>>18213705
>not cyclopx

>>18212670

>>18213779
>now thotkang, nigga of Thundercracka

>>18213705
>not people of cyclopism

>>18212962
if it felt so good reading a translation can only imagine what might have been for a Greek

humanity peaked a long time ago lads

>>18212670
>>18212682
>>18212694
>>18213002
>>18213052
It really isn't that bad. I bet most of you complaining about how bad it is didn't even notice it was in iambic pentameter. It might be a bore to read, but it's fun to read aloud. I haven't read the entirely of Wilson's translation, but it being in a proper English meter alone gives it merit and reason to be written. It clearly stands apart from older translations; is that good or bad? I can't really say right now

>>18213078
>KJV never met a Jew in their lives
Imagine being this retarded holy shit

>>18213936
>In iambic pentameter
Wow, the most basic meter and incidentally
NOT THE ONE HOMER USES
Also fun fact, iambic pentameter so basic many poems that are purportedly free verse end up accidentally being iambic
Wilson's biggest sin is how dull and basic her text is
Homer is filled with brilliant and clever expressions that are boiled down to the most basic, snooze inducing bullshit
From the first page
Polymechanos
Why is this complicated?
Wilson is not making some grand discovery that Odysseus was no saint, pretty much everyone who wasn't his direct ally thought he was a massive jackass
Polymechanos also demonstrates in one simple word why he was a jackass, it's too cool a word to be turned into
Muh complicated

>>18213002
>>18213089
Try the Knox translation, I have a lot of it memorized and use it for prayer and meditation.
I've read maybe half of the NIV, most of the KJV, and all of Knox. I've read most of my favorite lines and passages in several translations. Knox reads like actual English literature. It's derived from the Latin Vulgate, but uses Hebrew and Greek for passages and phrases pretty frequently.

Here's the first lines of Genesis:
God, at the beginning of time, created heaven and earth. Earth was still an empty waste, and darkness hung over the deep; but already, over its waters, stirred the breath of God. Then God said, Let there be light; and the light began.

>>18213936
>didn't even notice it was in iambic pentameter.
What's there to notice lmao is that supposed to be interesting

>>18213936
there is no epic quality to it

also you're either a female or an remarkably stupid reader and so please refrain from making senseless statements, roastie. Go dye your hair.

>>18213997
>>18213979
All I'm saying is that there's a clear reason why she thought and felt compelled to translate The Odyssey. I can see why a company would publish this. I think it's kinda neat because the reading level is so low that I could read this to my class of 4th graders and it wouldn't go over their heads. I never said it was better than other translations or even that it was good, only that I think the translation has some merit to have been written. I think I'm most disappointed by this translation not being marketed towards children because at some point appealing to the masses degrades any work.

https://kirkcenter.org/reviews/a-coat-of-varnish/
>All in all, Wilson’s work reminds me of a friend who painted a houseful of antique furniture a thick, beachy white. The result was airy and beautiful and utterly modern and fashionable: the interior could have been in a magazine for interior design. It was all lovely, unless you knew the beautiful, distinctive old grains of the oak, the mahogany, the cherry, and the walnut that were buried under the obscuring antiseptic modernism. Perhaps the next owner will take pleasure in stripping it all back down to the wood; but having known how much work that is, I cannot help but feel that a good coat of varnish, that would reveal the grain rather than blot it out, would have been a better choice for all involved.
>Wilson also lapses into bizarre circumlocutions around the story of the Cyclops. Homer describes Polyphemus, who eats six of Odysseus’s men raw, as “athemistos”—literally something like “without a sense of divine right or wrong,” but “lawless” usually does the job in English. Lack of respect for themis, true right and wrong, is posited by Homer’s contemporary Hesiod as the cause of all human evil. Wilson, however, decides in her introduction that the story of the Cyclops is really a story about colonialism (“the Polyphemus episode seems to meditate uneasily on the processes of colonization”), and hence it is her duty to resist any tendency to dehumanize the sixty-foot-tall, one-eyed, flesh-eating son of the sea-god. She translates athemistos as “maverick,” an offense not only against sensibility, but also against the aesthetics of her poem—the word leaps off the page, wildly inappropriate to Wilson’s typical register. Needless to say I just about fell over laughing.
>For young readers, and the casual “Book of the Month Club” type consumer of print, Wilson’s may be the finest Odyssey ever produced.
>It may well be that a future generation of lovers of Shakespeare will cut their teeth on Wilson’s pentameters in their high school or even middle school classes.

>>18214033

>>18213089
>Alter sucks.
Explain, or perish.

>>18212649
No she definitely put work in it and chose her words carefully. She mentionned in an interview that she first considered translating polytropos as straying husband before setting for a complicated man instead. Those words aren't an accident. I disagree with her but she isn't a retard translating badly, it's misleading purposefully. This isn't the first or last time, the Odyssey seems to attract that kind of controversy. Should we translate servitors as slaves and pretend it's about accuracy or following a iambic meter?

>>18212534
>The Odyssey, Homer
>has Minoan women in the cover
>and worst of all we can't see the tits

>>18214226
Worst of all is that these women aren't even Minoan but just fan art

>>18214232
That's even worse.

>>18212670
Honestly, apart from the awkward first line, the rest of her excerpt reads pretty well.

>>18213705
Holy shit, is this real? Post pic

Woman simply can't comprehend literature, that's why they suck so much at it

>>18212670
The second one is a masterpiece.

>>18213004
>she totally mentions it!
>where? uhh let me see...
>(Oh shit she doesn't actually mention it)
>uhh it's clearly implied!
EVEN IF THAT WERE TRUE HOMER EXPLICITLY MENTIONS IT, HE DOESN'T JUST "IMPLY" AND BEFORE YOU ASK: YES, I DID REFER TO THE GREEK. THE CORRESPONDING LINE IS
αὐτῶν γὰρ σφετέρῃσιν ἀτασθαλίῃσιν ὄλοντο,

>>18215440
What do you think of Fitzgerald?

>>18212534
at least the song is kinda fun to listen to

>>18213779
What the fuck is up with the "modern times" is what I want to know.

>>18212534
So this is Nietzsche's favourite composer?

>>18214058
>She translates athemistos as “maverick,” an offense not only against sensibility, but also against the aesthetics of her poem—the word leaps off the page, wildly inappropriate to Wilson’s typical register. Needless to say I just about fell over laughing
ESL here, what's wrong with "maverick"?

>>18215879
It means something entirely different, as well as being an uncommon enough word to be notable.

>>18213779
i'd like to hear tyrones translation of the illiad.

>>18213079
That part was morbid tbf

Bump

>>18212534
I think it’s actually good.

Tbh the ‘feminist translation’ angle is over played, and was far more significant in the marketing of the book than it was on the mind of her while writing the translation.

The translation is a little loose compared to others bc it’s entirely in iambic pentameter, and it flows in a way none of the other major translations do.

People should try reading it bc bashing it

It should be in dactylic hexameter
Stanley Lombardo already did a 'modern' translation and it isn't complete shit

>>18212670
And people bash the Fagles translation.. ridiculous

>>18212670
Hers isn't actually that bad compared to the others except for the atrocious taste of the first line. Then again I doubt there are very many good translation of the Odyssey.

>>18213936
>I bet most of you complaining about how bad it is didn't even notice it was in iambic pentameter
that's what I liked about it, it makes it smooth to read. But that first line is execrable

>>18218743
it's obviously a reference to complication as used on high end watch faces which in fact "twist and turn" as time passes

>>18218743
>>18218752
For what it’s worth, her introduction spends vastly more time explaining why she chose ‘complicated’ than it does talking about her doing a ‘feminist translation’.

It still sounds like shit, but she at least gives an argument for why it’s a good choice.

>>18218825
it's even better when you consider those watch complications were original intended for use by sailors

>>18212670
>>18215440
The first two are still lackluster compared to Fitzgerald’s translation, which is so incredible that it truly is like a revelation.

>>18212857
>>18212866
Fitzgerald’s translation has the approximate meaning

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/grkol/30

this is great too bad they didn't do the whole thing

>>18212914
the absolute best one mentions impieties, you fuckin bitch. Get learnt.

>>18212534
Tell me about a shitty translation. Also, I was wondering /lit/'s opinion on her videos she makes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az0Qxcf_ms4
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7Em1DngRThRNzPy_mM_NUA

>>18219801
>It's a translation aimed at kids
ok, this all makes sense now

in the end achilles got noscoped by paris like a lil bitch, the sacking of troy was nothing more than collective incel rage against helen who cucked agamemnom. imagine fighting a war for ten long years all because your king wasn't aware that AWALT. agamemnon could've went mgtow and dropped helen like she was trash but he seethed and dilated like a fucking tranny for more than a decade all while, behind the tall walls of troy, she was getting dicked down every night by the chad paris. imagine hearing your wife moaning over someone elses cock for ten years and you actually stick around to remind yourself of it. the greek sacking troy was truly an elliot roger moment

>>18220847
Hi, Emily. I'm liking this draft better.

>>18213936
probably most posts on lit are in iambic anyway.
>not reading homer in dactylic hexameter
i feel sorry for anglos

>>18219903
So it's the YA of classical translations?

>>18219801
What in God's name!

>>18222957
lmao

>>18212534
>Their ships go very fast

Redpill me on this Simpsons novel.

>>18214033
So what you're saying is that this translation was made so the average black college graduate could enjoy a foundational work of the Western Canon? Based!

>>18219801
ὦ Ζεῦ, ιδού! βᾰ́ρβᾰρος ἡ γῠνή Ἑλληνῐκήν τὴν γλῶσσᾰν φθείρει!

>>18215944
Nah, that part was based.

>>18213052
I think her version sucks and it's not because of the language. There are children's versions from the 20th century that are unironically better.

Is there a manga version of Illiad and Odyssey? The original is a bit too dry for my taste

>>18218932
I love Fitz. He was a poet in his own right. I wonder if his own stuff is any good.

>>18213994
Underrated post.

>>18214033
>I can see why a company would publish this.
WTF now I understand Marx.

>>18224640
I've been meaning to check him out. He's good enough for Bloom to consider him part of the Canon.

>>18218932
>Sing in me, Muse, and through me tell the story
>of that man skilled in all ways of contending

:)

>>18224609
I hate burgers

>>18213079
That part was really one of the most brutal, other than the rape, pillage & burn campaigns along the coast.

>be slave
>master is missing for over 10 years
>probably dead
>drunk nobles partying in the palace 24/7 looking for pussy
>one of them will be your new master
>fuck noble to gain favor of future master
>are a sex slave anyway, so whatever
>master comes back against all odds
>strangles you because you thought he died

Most medieval Christian already thought that section (and the entire Odyssee) was messed up though. You don't need modern wokeness to realize bronze age morals are barbaric.

>CtrlF MacPherson
>0 results
ngmi

>>18218932
>>18218932
Too verbose, I much prefer Lattimore's "man of many ways" which is terse and employs alliteration and repeated vowels to flow off the tongue. In comparison "man skilled in all ways of contending" is just clunky.

>>18212534
>female translator
lol

bump

>>18226777
In my mother's tongue, polytropos is usually translated as a man of many tricks, or of a thousand tricks (thousand is an idiosyncrazy here, meaning 'too many' rather than a number). A complicated man just doesn't give justice to Ulysses - the man is praised by Athena herself for his wits, not for being a straying husband or a shitty sailor.

>>18218743
Start learning greek or latin and do your own translations. In the beginning you will have similar results as her.